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Full Version: Prime Jones Jr vs Prime Sugar Ray Robinson at 168
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U.S. Champ
I would take Jones in that one based on his Flash KO power and elusiveness
PR316
Robinson never fought above 160 I believe, and I don't think he would have been able to fight effectively at 168. Meanwhile, 168 was Jones PRIME weight. He was truly a special fighter at that time. A freak of nature. Gotta go with Roy based on that, but in terms of all time greatness and accomplishments, its Robinson no doubt.
BigG
I'd have to pick Roy....
D-MARV
Roy would win!!!!

Roy was too big, too strong, too fast, and too athletic.
and the NEW
Yeh, I would have to take Roy at 168, just too slick, by decision.

Though I wouldn't like to see Roys face if he covered up on the ropes as he did at times and Ray unloaded those bomb combinations! If one of those left hooks landed, it wouldn't have been a pretty sight! Or that straight right used on Graziano! My god!
Fuse
I think it would be an interesting fight. While weighing under 160 lbs., Robinson COMPLETELY dominated Joey Maxim (the light heavy champ) at a time when Robinson was slightly past his prime. I think Robinson was every bit as fast and as powerful as Jones, but Robinson, who already had over 130 fights, would've had the experience and overall boxing ability on Jones.

Hard to say what would've happened.
and the NEW
That being said, Maxim was no Roy Jones, he was a slug.

Past his prime when he fought Maxim? Other than past it as far as weight is concerned, he was still very much the force he had always been in his prime.

Once he came back from France, he was definately not quiet the same man.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(PR316 @ Jul 3 2008, 05:27 PM) [snapback]394757[/snapback]
Robinson never fought above 160 I believe, and I don't think he would have been able to fight effectively at 168. Meanwhile, 168 was Jones PRIME weight. He was truly a special fighter at that time. A freak of nature. Gotta go with Roy based on that, but in terms of all time greatness and accomplishments, its Robinson no doubt.

Robinson fought for the light heavyweight belt but was closer to 160..If the fight was 168,he would weigh what he wanted to weigh and not 168,but around 160..Robinson,no doubt in my mind would beat Roy..Robinson is the best fighter ever in boxing..I think it'd be better to compare this fight at 160,cause you could still say that Robinson was still priming at 160 but when he fought for the light heavyweight belt,he was at the very end of his career..Roy is one of the best of all time and a freak of nature,but Ray Robinson is the absolute complete fighter..Ray and Roy are both very smart fighters but I think Ray has fought the harder fights..Also,you would have to decide on if the fight was a 15 round fight or 12..Roy would have a better chance if it was a 12 round fight..I think Ray Robinson would win on a UD at 160 lbs..Ray Robinson would be able to fight effectively at almost any weight though in my opinion based on his ring smarts and footwork..He footwork was AMAZING!!!Whenever I watch tapes to study footwork for myself to work on,Ray Robinson all the way..Hell,he was a dancin man!!haha..This is all based on if the fight was at 160,not 168..
PR316
Prime Roy's weight wasn't 160 so it wouldn't be fair to him to put this at that weight. Roy didn't really hit his prime until the Toney fight.


But as FIGHTERS, I do think Robinson was better. He fought the better competition, faced every type of opponent, and while in his prime, managed to beat them all. Very limited footage exists on Robinson, and its extremely difficult to get any good stuff on his welterweight fights. A bit is available, and in that small bit you can see the greatness. At the very beginning of Robinson's middleweight career he was great, but after the trip to France, he was definitely on the decline(Perhaps all the womanizing and partying finally caught up to him).


Now the Robinson that beat Lamotta in the St Valentines Day Massacre against the Jones that beat Hopkins???.... I'll say Robby by competitive UD but again, its not fair to Roy because Roy at 160 wasn't quite the Roy Jones we grew to know(If not love).


But without a shadow of a doubt, Robinson is the greater fighter. Roy was arguably more talented overall, but Robinson accomplished more.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(PR316 @ Jul 31 2008, 07:58 PM) [snapback]398342[/snapback]
Prime Roy's weight wasn't 160 so it wouldn't be fair to him to put this at that weight. Roy didn't really hit his prime until the Toney fight.
But as FIGHTERS, I do think Robinson was better. He fought the better competition, faced every type of opponent, and while in his prime, managed to beat them all.
Now the Robinson that beat Lamotta in the St Valentines Day Massacre against the Jones that beat Hopkins???.... I'll say Robby by competitive UD but again, its not fair to Roy because Roy at 160 wasn't quite the Roy Jones we grew to know(If not love).
But without a shadow of a doubt, Robinson is the greater fighter. Roy was arguably more talented overall, but Robinson accomplished more.

I agree with ya man..It'd be hard to say who'd beat who since they both were never really in the same weight class..All ya can do is imagine..It wouldn't be fair to either one of them to chose a weight class they one was better at and the other wasn't..I do have to go with Robinson no matter what though..
and the NEW
QUOTE(JonnyBlaze @ Jul 31 2008, 10:52 PM) [snapback]398321[/snapback]
but when he fought for the light heavyweight belt,he was at the very end of his career..

Ray Robinson would be able to fight effectively at almost any weight though in my opinion based on his ring smarts and footwork..He footwork was AMAZING!!!Whenever I watch tapes to study footwork for myself to work on,Ray Robinson all the way..Hell,he was a dancin man!!haha..This is all based on if the fight was at 160,not 168..


What rubbish, Robinson was nowhere near the end of his career when he fought Maxim.

I would also say, Roy had better footwork than Ray.

Ray had the ability to slug, hit a lot harder, especially with both hands, threw a better variety of punches and had a better chin than Roy. Not sure about that footwork though? Seemed to be missing against LaMotta at times, not to mention in a lot of his 160lb fights where he was hit a lot more than he should have been, standing inside that killzone. Roy probably had the best wheels on him I have ever seen.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(and the NEW @ Aug 1 2008, 12:16 AM) [snapback]398378[/snapback]
What rubbish, Robinson was nowhere near the end of his career when he fought Maxim.

I would also say, Roy had better footwork than Ray.

Ray had the ability to slug, hit a lot harder, especially with both hands, threw a better variety of punches and had a better chin than Roy. Not sure about that footwork though? Seemed to be missing against LaMotta at times, not to mention in a lot of his 160lb fights where he was hit a lot more than he should have been, standing inside that killzone. Roy probably had the best wheels on him I have ever seen.

Yeah,he wasn't at the very end of his career,but what I meant was the end of his prime..He had alot more fight left in him(he still would if he was still alive),but wasn't the same after the Lamotta fights..He was a awesome fighter before and after the Lamotta fights but I think the magic he had wasn't there anymore but showed glimpses of it later on..Magic meaning what Roy had before Tarver 2..Ray was best at Welterweight and that was his prime weight..He fought real good at 160 based on skill,like Floyd was able to fight at Jr. Middleweight..Why do you think Ray retired after the Maxim fight and tried to be a dancer but found out he couldn't get a career goin with dancing soo he decided to come back to boxing??Do you think Ray thought he was still in his prime??Hell no!!I also disagree and think Ray Robinson had better footwork then Roy..
and the NEW
Out of interest, which Robinson fights have you seen Jonny?

Inparticular it would be interesting to know which welter fights where Robby was PRIME you have seen? And what you mean specifically by "he was past his prime after his Lamotta fights"?

If you have not seen his fights (not many on tape so doubt you have seen very many), which sources state he is was his prime before his retirement to France?

After years off, of course he was past his prime, but we are talking about the Maxim fight, right?
King Eugene
Roy at 168 no doubt!
and the NEW
Hey Fitz,

I actually got most of my old fights off a source through this forum years back, under a differrent username, who recommended me to another source. lol. It was TKO if you remember him (he sold boxing vids himself but recommended me to another guy who had a much larger collection), and the site was something like "boxingdvd.com". Cannot even remember these days, it was so long ago, but that site does not appear to exist. I'm sure he is out there somewhere, it is from the States or Canada I think. I ordered an absolute packet of them. Also bought some other fights off other randoms if I thought they were hard to come bye.

A mate of mine is also a collector and has a room full of videos, so I go by his every now and then to pickup a fight I have not seen.

You definatley have to buy off sellers though IMO. Many are HORRIBLE quality as it is, so youtube would be rediculous. A couple of Ray Robinsons early fights on tape look like two glowing stick figures slugging it out. It almost looks like a pathetic old computer game and you really cannot even tell who is fighting, except for the trademark way Robby threw his punches and moved his body. The only thing that stands out in these fights are Robbys power and combination punching, he did appear to get hit quiet a bit, he was by no means a defensive wizard IMO, despite most people drumming him upto being untouchable. He just had a chin made of pure granite but didn't mind coping a few.

The odd thing as me and PR have often stated, is his amateur fights (golden gloves) footage is FAR FAR better quality than most of his other stuff. His welter career is nearly non-existent. Almost seems like a consipiracy theory, considering he was so famed throughout his career. An absolute terrible loss to the boxing community.



Cheers
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(and the NEW @ Aug 12 2008, 04:46 AM) [snapback]400216[/snapback]
Out of interest, which Robinson fights have you seen Jonny?

Inparticular it would be interesting to know which welter fights where Robby was PRIME you have seen? And what you mean specifically by "he was past his prime after his Lamotta fights"?

If you have not seen his fights (not many on tape so doubt you have seen very many), which sources state he is was his prime before his retirement to France?

After years off, of course he was past his prime, but we are talking about the Maxim fight, right?

Which Robinson fights have I seen??I've seen the Lamotta fights,all the Fullmer fights,the Basilio fights,Maxim,Pender,Graciano,Turpin,Jones,Dykes,Moyer,and all the Olson fights(all fights I own)..He only lost once at Welterweight to Lamotta(him weighing in in the 140's whether or not he was fighting someone who weighed in the 160s)..So I think we got it mixed up,I meant he was a welterweight and he was fighting middleweights..He prime weight was in the 140s mostly and sometime even the low 150s(50-54)..You should read his book Sugar Ray..The Maxim fight plus all his fights after it amount for 17 of his 19 losses..Before the Maxim fight he only lost 2(Lamotta and Turpin)..When I said he was past his prime after the last Lamotta fight in 1951 it kinda shows because he lost 2 fights in that year which I believe was when he lost a little somethin..A little somethin,which doesn't mean he was on a decline but he wasn't in his best years..Which he shouldn't of been,he had fought over 100 fights professionally up to that point and then ya add on his amateur fights into that too..Not a fighter today could do that..No doubt he had sooo many amazing fights after that and he looked extremely good..Hope this helps ya understand what I was talkin about..
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(Fitz @ Aug 12 2008, 05:29 AM) [snapback]400220[/snapback]
Hey. ATN. Where do you watch your or have gotten hold of the old fights? I'm talking fights from the black and white days? I'm still young and started watching boxing casually since about 1997 (mainly the big PPV fights) and properly since about 2002 or so. I still haven't seen a great deal of fighters from the early, early days, so just wondering what your source is. Buying fights off sellers, download, youtube etc?

Go to Boxingvideos.net...Best site for fights by far in my opinion..He has the biggest collection out there I bet..If he doesn't have the fight,he can get it or has it and its not listed..If ya want a fight not listed,e-mail him and request it..I'm cool with the guy who owns it soo whenever I buy fights he hooks me up with a shit load more..His name is Jose..He actually sold Roy Jones Jr. his whole amateur career..This guy is also close buddies with Jeff Mayweather and they both have a site where you can bet on boxing fights called kofightpicks.com..Check it out and let me know what ya think..
and the NEW
You've seen all the LaMotta fights? wink.gif Plural?

Of course he lost a lot of fights after the Maxim fight, that is because he had spent 2 1/2 years out of the ring.

He looked very much like the Ray of old against Maxim, and had blown away Graziano and easily diposed of Olsen within that year.

Turpin was an awkward customer and let's not forget Ray fought him at the END of a worldwind European tour of which he saw as more of a party time holiday than a serious trianing camp. He also had very close fights in the years preceeding this.

Of course it is well known his prime weight was welter, but he was not past his prime performances by the Maxim fight, that is simply my point.
Maxy
This also looks a good site
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(and the NEW @ Aug 13 2008, 02:00 AM) [snapback]400336[/snapback]
You've seen all the LaMotta fights? wink.gif Plural?

Of course he lost a lot of fights after the Maxim fight, that is because he had spent 2 1/2 years out of the ring.

He looked very much like the Ray of old against Maxim, and had blown away Graziano and easily diposed of Olsen within that year.

Turpin was an awkward customer and let's not forget Ray fought him at the END of a worldwind European tour of which he saw as more of a party time holiday than a serious trianing camp. He also had very close fights in the years preceeding this.

Of course it is well known his prime weight was welter, but he was not past his prime performances by the Maxim fight, that is simply my point.

Where did it say I've seen all the Lamotta fights??I own one of them and I am pretty sure I have seen highlights of others online somewhere(if that's not the case,I must be confusing myself with Raging Bull)..I do think I've seen highlights of some of their other fights though,mainly the first one..If you want more names of fights I have or seen of his,I'll continue my list if that's what ya want..Being out of the ring for 2.5 years is going to effect you for a year or a little more at most but he didn't have the ability to do what he did before after the ring rust was gone..He fought really well in the Maxim fight for sure,he fought extremely well in the Olsen fights and the Basilio and Fullmer fights during his comeback..Yet,if he was still feeling as fresh and didn't have wear and tear on his body and had all the punches landed on him up to that point,they would have all been different fights..This is the same case for Ali and the Norton fights lets say..Ali fought well,but if he was in his prime,he would of smoked Norton even though Norton had a unique style in my opinion..Ray was a boxer and high quality boxers pick apart guys like Graziano with ease(not to take away from Graziano,since I really like him)..Ali,Roy Jones,Floyd Mayweather,Ray Robinson,Lennox Lewis,Gene Tunney,and so many other high quality boxers destroy pressure fighters or punchers..Mayweather knocked out guys who hadn't been knocked out before and Mayweather didn't even have power..Ray never lost his skill,he only lost his ability to do certain things like not get hit or be able to keep up his amazing footwork for 15 rounds..The point you made about Turpin was definitely true and is exactly the case but is a disappointing loss..
and the NEW
I am talking about THE Maxim fight, not the fights after his semi-retirement.

Go and re-read your comments and my response. You have gone off on a tangent.


JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(and the NEW @ Aug 13 2008, 08:31 PM) [snapback]400441[/snapback]
I am talking about THE Maxim fight, not the fights after his semi-retirement.

Go and re-read your comments and my response. You have gone off on a tangent.

HAHAHA,I did go quite a ways off on somethin else..I stopped re-readin old posts and just posted off of what you were saying..This fight just isn't possible at 168..Ray only weighed 168 for 1 of his fights..If they fought at 160,I bet Ray would be Roy..If they were able to fight below that weight,Ray all the way..It's hard to tell what'd happen though based on they both have crazy speed and both had power but Ray had more..
and the NEW
lol, not to worry.

Yeh, at 160 I would take Ray any day of the week. But if you took the best 160 version of Ray against Roy at his best at 168 it would be a damn interesting fight.

Roy by UD or Ray by KO for me.

If Roy fought Joey Maxim, I think I know which way I would go. Maxim was far from a great light-heavy, Moore prooved that and you would never have seen Ray step in the ring with Archie, or it would have been a brutal affair.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(and the NEW @ Aug 14 2008, 08:57 AM) [snapback]400499[/snapback]
lol, not to worry.

Yeh, at 160 I would take Ray any day of the week. But if you took the best 160 version of Ray against Roy at his best at 168 it would be a damn interesting fight.

Roy by UD or Ray by KO for me.

If Roy fought Joey Maxim, I think I know which way I would go. Maxim was far from a great light-heavy, Moore prooved that and you would never have seen Ray step in the ring with Archie, or it would have been a brutal affair.

Archie was a badddddddd man at light-heavy..Archie definitely is one of the most interesting fighters to watch..HELL,he made up a whole new style(the cross armed defense)..Frazier,Holyfield,and Foreman were 3 of the many fighters to use that defense(maybe not all the time but they used it)..I myself have used the cross arm defense and really like using it,but I am more of a fan of Cotto's defense..I really like blocking with gloves like he does even though a Mayweather type of defense will frustrate a opponent soooo much more..It does take a long time to master it like Cotto has but I'm workin on it..haha..It takes even more time to master Mayweather's though..You'd also have to be willing to get hit a lot more to try to get Mayweather's down..
I think Ray kind of knew his limits and didn't push it to that extreme to fight a Archie..Moving up to Middleweight was pushin it for him since he naturally wasn't even close to a middleweight in weight except for later in his career..Roy would have a advantage if he was 168 and Ray was 160 for weight reasons and others..Roy would have smashed Maxim with ease..KO for sure..I don't think Roy would be able to handle Ray's punches too well..Getting KO'ed by Tarver and Johnson is nothing to be ashamed of since both of them are hard hitters but Ray was even harder and faster then both of them..Tarver is quick though..Also,I have no idea how Maxim was able to stand the heat in the Ray fight..Both of them are special fighters to have lasted as long as they did..
and the NEW
Tarver was a rangy southpaw which definately troubled Roy, even would have in his prime IMHO.

Johnson, that was a washed up Roy who was battered all night. You should know as you say you box yourself, an accumulation of damage is LETHAL to your brain. Fatigue (which comes if you are being pounded on very quickly) makes a KO much much more probable.

Mayweathers defense is freaky and only he can do it IMO. He has some insane vision and reflexes. A defence like DLH, Cotto is much more helpful for the rest of the population. Just use your feet, stay out of the killzone (most important thing which nobody seems to talk about around here) and keep your hands up. Of course once you throw when you get into the killzone, you can be countered, why it's important to throw one punch after the other with the hand which just threw moving straight back to it's defensive position. Not get sloppy and not drop them after throwing them.

It's also very important to throw a combination right after your opponenet has thrown a combination. A very risk free time to step into his killzone.

Never read that Archie created the crab defence. Perhaps............

JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(and the NEW @ Aug 14 2008, 08:49 PM) [snapback]400622[/snapback]
Tarver was a rangy southpaw which definately troubled Roy, even would have in his prime IMHO.

Johnson, that was a washed up Roy who was battered all night. You should know as you say you box yourself, an accumulation of damage is LETHAL to your brain. Fatigue (which comes if you are being pounded on very quickly) makes a KO much much more probable.

Mayweathers defense is freaky and only he can do it IMO. He has some insane vision and reflexes. A defence like DLH, Cotto is much more helpful for the rest of the population. Just use your feet, stay out of the killzone (most important thing which nobody seems to talk about around here) and keep your hands up. Of course once you throw when you get into the killzone, you can be countered, why it's important to throw one punch after the other with the hand which just threw moving straight back to it's defensive position. Not get sloppy and not drop them after throwing them.

It's also very important to throw a combination right after your opponenet has thrown a combination. A very risk free time to step into his killzone.

Never read that Archie created the crab defence. Perhaps............

The Tarver lose was no fluke at all..Tarver is a great great fighter and I completely agree that no matter what part of Roy's career he was in,he would of always had problems with Tarver..Tarver is fast like Roy(obviously no as fast) and being a southpaw could give anyone serious problems if they aren't comfortable with southpaws..The KO Roy had against Tarver really messed him up(his confidence and his body)..Roy's head bounced off the canvas real hard..The body punches from Johnson is what softened up Roy alot in their fight but you're right,every punch will take something outta you whether you know it or not..When I get hit,I don't feel more tired or anything but fatigue will just hit ya outta no where..Roy wasn't smart to have picked Glen after the Tarver fight..It takes a lot of time to recover from a KO like that I bet..I've never been hurt or KO'ed,so I can't really say for sure but I would imagine you're brain is really traumatized and needs 5 or more months to recover from a KO like that..
The way you describe the way to box is actually the exact way I box..I jab a lot,move around in angles/circles and when I feel like making my opponent respect me and know not to just come in,I'll use my right hand(which has been named the hammer by the guys in the gym)..It's soo important to have good footwork cause if you don't,when you're in trouble you become a sitting duck without good footwork..One of the hardest things to learn is to keep you're hands up for defensive purposes when you're tired..It's sooo hard but once you keep fighting through it,it'll become easier..With counter punchers,it is best to throw 1-3 punches,step out of range right away and keep doing that..The more punches you throw against a counter puncher,the more chances you're taking of gettin hit and could get dominated real easy..It is good to throw a combo right after a opponent has too just to test em to see how they're holdin up..
As for Archie's defense,I forgot to mention that I have a letter from Gene Fullmer that he wrote back to me after I wrote to him and he was talking about how Archie created that style of defense and how he learned it from watchin him..If you're interested in writing to Gene,reply back to this message with your e-mail addy and I'll give you the addy to write to him..It's hard for Gene to write too much these days but I was lucky for him to have written me..You can tell by the writing and autographed picture that it's getting real tough for him..I also have more boxer's addys but don't want to throw out too many names cause I don't want to get swamped for requests..
and the NEW
lol, thx man, I'm all good. Spoken to plenty of great boxers in my time, including my old coach who fought some of the absolute best ring legends in the business.

I wouldn't say Tarver is great. But his tall, rangy, southpaw style with huge power in the left makes him a dangerous proposition for Roy. A very awkward customer with knockout power.

Good luck with the boxing! Good to see you studying your old timers, really helps your education when learning the craft.

To get used to holding your hands up, buy some strap on hand weights and when you run, wear them and hold your hands upto your chin. You look like a bit of a toss, but I ran at night and this helps build shoulder strength immensly. Which will increase your speed, power and stamina over the long haul.
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