Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Oscar is "The Golden Fraud"
FightHype Community > BOXING HYPE > Boxing
Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
The Boxing Fan
I know we have been talking about Oscar this and Oscar that but I have never seen anyone who has been protected and if allow it to happen Ruin boxing. If boxing goes down the tubes in the next 5-10 years , it will be because of Oscar Dela Hoya and his Business practices. This guy has made a career of fighting opponents he had no business in the ring with or Bob Arum has always made sure he had a size advantage over his opponent.

first of all he had no business fighting Chavez. Oscar was much bigger and it was obvious Chavez was well past his prime. Also he fought Ike Quartey because he had A size advantage over him but he quickly found out that Bazooka jab was something else. He never granted Quartey a rematch. I think his response to Lampley was something like" I think there are better fights out there for me". He tried to pull that big man fighting the little crap with Mosley and Mosley pulled the little man is on steroids trick on him. I think it was quite CLEAR during the fights they had. Now whats going to ruins boxing is the purse demands that Oscar demands and the quality of opponents he picks. He for some reasons gets two thirds of the purse be it he is Champion or not and he is always the bigger guy. Mayweather won't fight him because Oscar will not even split the money 50/50 with him or in my opinion 60/40 for Mayweather. This seems to be a tactic of Golden Boy Promotions in promoting fights that number one are not pay per view eventS for example Mosley/Judah, and also number two they get the lion share of the money. People are gonna get turned off by Pay per Views that have less action or that we all know is a load of crap like this Pacman deal Oscar is trying sell us. He has been protected by Arum for most of his career and when Oscar comes back to spite arum, Now Arum has a problem with Oscar and his business practices. Well Arum you have taught your pupil well, how to be money grumbing fraud.
The CEO
I knew he was a fraud 10 years ago. He's as fake as they come...
Mean Mister Mustard
I think DLH should be given credit for at least stopping the smaller guys he fought ealry on in his career. He was also good enough to never be beaten up even against Hopkins.

That being I don't think he took part in the matchmaking early on in his career, that credit goes to Arum. But later in his career, you can tell DLH learned from Arum about fighting either smaller or past their prime foes who still had a name.

I mean did he really have to fight Chavez again? He could have fought Whitaker again and beaten him even more decisevely seeing as how Whitaker would have been 1 year older and hooked on nose sugar.

DId he pursue a Trinidad rematch? I mean did he pursue it with all his might?

Like the OP said, he took on Mosley just because he thought he would have the strength. advantage and he got his ass spanked.

Then he avoided Mosley for 3 years. And that was after Mosley looked below average in defeats against Forrest and a NC against Marquez. Which brings me to DLH only fighting guys after they've been beaten.

He fought Quartey after Bazooka looked bad against Lopez. He fought Vargas after Tito beat his ass. Fought Mosley after Forrest beat him. Fought Mayorga after Tito beat him.

Give him credit for fighting Hopkins and Mayweather but right now he's all about the money. He's a great fighter but not an ATG one. The publicity and adoration he receives only makes it seems like he deserves it.

JLUVBABY
that was a very interesting article and i agree 100%... oscar while always a very solid fighter, not a great fighter but a solid fighter always fought and made the myth that is oscar dela hoya very early fighting guys that where smaller than him... when he hit welterweight and above is when he started either losing or being in life or death battles.. then again, he was a natural welterweight all along.. or solid 140 at best... the quartey fight was brought up and i have always felt oscar lost that fight very narrowly but another fight is forgotten a lot of times and that fight is his life and death struggle with oba carr... carr got with oscar and i dont care what the judges say at the time of the stoppage (in i believe 11th round, i gotta go back and check) i had carr ahead by 1 point... oscar got house decisions versus pernell whitaker, bazooka ike quartey and most recently felix sturm... i can live with whitaker decision (past his prime whitaker) but anybody that questions the sturm decision has to put on the straight jacket in the night (quote from george foreman...lol).. the only problem i ever had with oscar was he always fought people that where either names past their primes or guys he was just naturally bigger than... that is oscars legacy.. i am sure not many people will agree with me but i think oscar has a better shot against margarito than he would have with cotto... i just believe styles make fights and cotto would bust oscar up, marg. is probably the only fighter right now that can do to cotto what he did, marg. style would be a lot less painfull for dela hoya in the long run i believe, win or lose... but manny pac. will not beat dela hoya, its fun to think of ways how he might have a chance but its at worst a mid round k.o.. manny cannot stand up to oscar.. that will be a train wreck... and his legacy continues....
The Boxing Fan
QUOTE(JLUVBABY @ Aug 4 2008, 07:26 PM) [snapback]398981[/snapback]
that was a very interesting article and i agree 100%... oscar while always a very solid fighter, not a great fighter but a solid fighter always fought and made the myth that is oscar dela hoya very early fighting guys that where smaller than him... when he hit welterweight and above is when he started either losing or being in life or death battles.. then again, he was a natural welterweight all along.. or solid 140 at best... the quartey fight was brought up and i have always felt oscar lost that fight very narrowly but another fight is forgotten a lot of times and that fight is his life and death struggle with oba carr... carr got with oscar and i dont care what the judges say at the time of the stoppage (in i believe 11th round, i gotta go back and check) i had carr ahead by 1 point... oscar got house decisions versus pernell whitaker, bazooka ike quartey and most recently felix sturm... i can live with whitaker decision (past his prime whitaker) but anybody that questions the sturm decision has to put on the straight jacket in the night (quote from george foreman...lol).. the only problem i ever had with oscar was he always fought people that where either names past their primes or guys he was just naturally bigger than... that is oscars legacy.. i am sure not many people will agree with me but i think oscar has a better shot against margarito than he would have with cotto... i just believe styles make fights and cotto would bust oscar up, marg. is probably the only fighter right now that can do to cotto what he did, marg. style would be a lot less painfull for dela hoya in the long run i believe, win or lose... but manny pac. will not beat dela hoya, its fun to think of ways how he might have a chance but its at worst a mid round k.o.. manny cannot stand up to oscar.. that will be a train wreck... and his legacy continues....



I agree with you Brother. Quartey beat him. Richard Steele took a point from Carr causing Carr to take more chances later in the fight after being dropped in the first round. If Carr doesnt get the point deduction for the incidental headbut might I tell you, he wins the fight because he boxes Oscar instead of going for the KO. My main gripe is the politricks of Oscar. He has to make the lion share of the money. He fought Castillejo and made 4 million while Castillejo made only 800,000. he didnt even give the guy a million. The guy was Champion at the time. The Mayweather fight, he made two thirds of the money, that is why Mayweather will not fight him because he is trying to pull the same shit again. Hopkins was the only real smart person. Hopkins was guaranteed 15 million plus and oscar made 30 million plus. That was the most money Hopkins made in his lifetime with all of his purses combined with money left over, a substantial amount. With Trinidad the split was 70/30 for Oscar and when he wanted a rematch Don King said sure except 70/30 for Trinidad. Bob Arum did not want to hear that crap. Arum almost agreed to a 50/50 split now what does that tell you. Hell even now Trinidad said part of the precondition of a rematch is a 50/50 split besides weight issues. Do you think Oscar is receptive to the split, NO!. He's a business man alright that why I have to agree with Mayweather about his retirement.
D-MARV
I think those that imply that Oscar is a fraud should be taken out back and beat with a stick!!!!!
Pernell Whitaker
Julio Cesar Chavez
Felix Trinidad
Shane Mosley
Floyd Mayweather
Ike Quartey
Fernando Vargas
Hector Camacho
Bernard Hopkins

Those guys are all Hall of Famers (maybe not Quartey). Oscar may have had size advantage but don't use that against him! I dont here anyone talking about Margarito... Should I call him a fraud for beating the much smaller Cotto? Give me a break. Oscar is a great fighter! Point Blank. Not an all time great but he is a great fighter. AND I REALLY CAN"T STAND THE GUY!
The CEO
He's a LOSER, marvelous...at one time, he DID have what it took to be truly great...but after he lost to Trinidad, he started caring less and less about being the best, and more and more about the money......think of the truly great athletes in other sports that got/get crazy paid....Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods....what's different about them?....oh yeah....they're WINNERS.

and here's a further breakdown to discredit him....


Pernell Whitaker - Old Pea says, "Check my tie." before the weigh in.

Julio Cesar Chavez - Incredibly Old.

Felix Trinidad - Could have gone either way, but guess what?....DLH LOST.

Shane Mosley - Gets beaten clearly in the 1st one and didn't do enough to win the 2nd one. That's 2 more losses.

Floyd Mayweather - Mayweather takes it easy on him to preserve a rematch. Luh who zuh her.

Ike Quartey - Merry Christmas.

Fernando Vargas - Shattered ego, leftovers.

Hector Camacho - Hey....wasn't Macho a little....OLD?

Bernard Hopkins - DLH finds a soft spot on the canvas. DLH smiles and says, "He heet me on the button." Hopkins immediately becomes his business partner.


laugh.gif


I know you don't like him either...but you don't have to be overly generous to compensate for it....he wants to fight Pacquiao....HATE that man.
Mean Mister Mustard
QUOTE(The C.E.O. @ Aug 4 2008, 10:35 PM) [snapback]399021[/snapback]
He's a LOSER, marvelous...at one time, he DID have what it took to be truly great...but after he lost to Trinidad, he started caring less and less about being the best, and more and more about the money......think of the truly great athletes in other sports that got/get crazy paid....Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods....what's different about them?....oh yeah....they're WINNERS.

and here's a further breakdown to discredit him....
Pernell Whitaker - Old Pea says, "Check my tie." before the weigh in.

Julio Cesar Chavez - Incredibly Old.

Felix Trinidad - Could have gone either way, but guess what?....DLH LOST.

Shane Mosley - Gets beaten clearly in the 1st one and didn't do enough to win the 2nd one. That's 2 more losses.

Floyd Mayweather - Mayweather takes it easy on him to preserve a rematch. Luh who zuh her.

Ike Quartey - Merry Christmas.

Fernando Vargas - Shattered ego, leftovers.

Hector Camacho - Hey....wasn't Macho a little....OLD?

Bernard Hopkins - DLH finds a soft spot on the canvas. DLH smiles and says, "He heet me on the button." Hopkins immediately becomes his business partner.
laugh.gif
I know you don't like him either...but you don't have to be overly generous to compensate for it....he wants to fight Pacquiao....HATE that man.


CEO keeping it real. Like I said, give him credit for never being beaten up and stopping the smaller fighters he fought, But he's not ATG.
The CEO
You know it, bro.


and this is for the guests or people who don't see sigs........courtesy of Mean Mister Mustard.


QUOTE
My name is Oscar de La Hoya. I'm 33 years old. I believe in taking care of myself and a balanced diet and rigorous exercise routine. In the morning if my face is a little puffy I'll put on an ice pack while doing stomach crunches. I can do 1000 now. After I remove the ice pack I use a deep pore cleanser lotion. In the shower I use a water activated gel cleanser, then a honey almond body scrub, and on the face an exfoliating gel scrub. Then I apply an herb-mint facial mask which I leave on for 10 minutes while I prepare the rest of my routine. I always use an after shave lotion with little or no alcohol, because alcohol dries your face out and makes you look older. Then moisturizer, then an anti-aging eye balm followed by a final moisturizing protective lotion.


STEVENSKI
Just what did ANY of his opponents do bar Tito to even warrant a 70/30 split with the kind of money DLH has always generated? They should be grateful for any scraps of money a machine like DLH chooses to feed them.

Mean Mister Mustard
QUOTE(The C.E.O. @ Aug 4 2008, 10:47 PM) [snapback]399026[/snapback]
You know it, bro.
and this is for the guests or people who don't see sigs........courtesy of Mean Mister Mustard.


LOL. I think it should be said that the sig is there not because I hate DLH but because when I saw that line it fit with him. But I'm not a hater. Just call his career like I see it.
Jack 1000
QUOTE(The Boxing Fan @ Aug 4 2008, 05:35 PM) [snapback]398975[/snapback]
I know we have been talking about Oscar this and Oscar that but I have never seen anyone who has been protected and if allow it to happen Ruin boxing. If boxing goes down the tubes in the next 5-10 years , it will be because of Oscar Dela Hoya and his Business practices. This guy has made a career of fighting opponents he had no business in the ring with or Bob Arum has always made sure he had a size advantage over his opponent.

first of all he had no business fighting Chavez. Oscar was much bigger and it was obvious Chavez was well past his prime. Also he fought Ike Quartey because he had A size advantage over him but he quickly found out that Bazooka jab was something else. He never granted Quartey a rematch. I think his response to Lampley was something like" I think there are better fights out there for me". He tried to pull that big man fighting the little crap with Mosley and Mosley pulled the little man is on steroids trick on him. I think it was quite CLEAR during the fights they had. Now whats going to ruins boxing is the purse demands that Oscar demands and the quality of opponents he picks. He for some reasons gets two thirds of the purse be it he is Champion or not and he is always the bigger guy. Mayweather won't fight him because Oscar will not even split the money 50/50 with him or in my opinion 60/40 for Mayweather. This seems to be a tactic of Golden Boy Promotions in promoting fights that number one are not pay per view eventS for example Mosley/Judah, and also number two they get the lion share of the money. People are gonna get turned off by Pay per Views that have less action or that we all know is a load of crap like this Pacman deal Oscar is trying sell us. He has been protected by Arum for most of his career and when Oscar comes back to spite arum, Now Arum has a problem with Oscar and his business practices. Well Arum you have taught your pupil well, how to be money grumbing fraud.


What was the purse split and the agreed PPV/closed-circuit percentage split from Mayweather-Delahoya? Does anyone remember?

Jack
The Boxing Fan
QUOTE(The C.E.O. @ Aug 4 2008, 10:35 PM) [snapback]399021[/snapback]
He's a LOSER, marvelous...at one time, he DID have what it took to be truly great...but after he lost to Trinidad, he started caring less and less about being the best, and more and more about the money......think of the truly great athletes in other sports that got/get crazy paid....Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods....what's different about them?....oh yeah....they're WINNERS.

and here's a further breakdown to discredit him....
Pernell Whitaker - Old Pea says, "Check my tie." before the weigh in.

Julio Cesar Chavez - Incredibly Old.

Felix Trinidad - Could have gone either way, but guess what?....DLH LOST.

Shane Mosley - Gets beaten clearly in the 1st one and didn't do enough to win the 2nd one. That's 2 more losses.

Floyd Mayweather - Mayweather takes it easy on him to preserve a rematch. Luh who zuh her.

Ike Quartey - Merry Christmas.

Fernando Vargas - Shattered ego, leftovers.

Hector Camacho - Hey....wasn't Macho a little....OLD?

Bernard Hopkins - DLH finds a soft spot on the canvas. DLH smiles and says, "He heet me on the button." Hopkins immediately becomes his business partner.
laugh.gif
I know you don't like him either...but you don't have to be overly generous to compensate for it....he wants to fight Pacquiao....HATE that man.


I think you just hit the nail on the head. I couldn't have said it any better man thumbsup_anim.gif
The CEO
Thank you....and I don't see what's wrong with being labelled a Hater when you can justify your Hate....I RESPECT good Hate, and I actually take it as a compliment....

It's a natural, masculine emotion.

laugh.gif
D-MARV
Maybe those guys were not in there prime! But I think it's a stretch to call De La Hoya a fraud! He's a smart business man IMHO! I know lately he's been acting like a real female!!!

"Oh!, I wont fight Tito because my wife wears the pants and strap ons in my family! hehehe"

"Oh! I wont fight Tony because he's a mexican and we may be related some how! hehehe"

"Oh I really enjoy having sex! especially when I dont cum!"

I know I know, he may be a loser! But personally I think the man has had a great career and he made a lot of money!
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
Not sure why Oscar is being called a fraud.

Let me preface this by saying I'm not a huge ODLH fan but nor do I hate the guy either.

In his career he fought pretty much everyone in and around his weight class (Winky excepted) yes some were smaller but some were bigger.

Although Quartey may have looked sloppy in his fight before ODLH he was still a very much a 'live' opponent going into that fight. '

Trinidad was considered a beast (and the bigger fighter) when they tangled and B-Hop was relatively fresh from dismantling Tito when Oscar agreed to fight him so I don't think he always went after the smaller 'past it' guys.

Sure we all know retrospectively that Vargas was pretty much damaged goods after Tito, but again at the time he was the bigger guy than Oscar and was thought by many to still be a very dangerous opponent.

Yeah Oscar padded his resume with a couple of big money fights with faded name fighters like Whitaker and Chavez but then again which boxer in his position wouldn't? Why is he such a bad guy for doing the logical thing?

People gripe about Oscar always taking the bulk of the pay per view money but if he's the draw then he should get the top dollar.

Look at it like this.

Say in the 90's De Niro and Schwarzenegger had made a film together. De Niro's got 2 Oscar's (no pun intended) and Arnold's last 3 films have made over $500 million combined at the box office. Who do you think is going to get the bigger salary?

And then say they make another film 5 years down the track. In that time maybe De Niro won another Oscar but Arnold's last 2 films were massive box office hits, again who do you think is going to get the bigger piece of the pie? It's an economic decision.

I'm not saying I agree with it, but it's simple supply and demand.

It also holds true for purses in boxing, particularly PPV purses.

And if I'm correct the other guys fighting didn't do too bad either. As I understand it B-Hop, Mosley and PBF ALL made career high paydays when they fought Oscar and probably most other guys that fought him also could claim the same.

Why do you think anyone anywhere near 147 calls out Oscar? Why do you think a guy like Manny who started at 108 wants to face the Golden Goose?

Sure Oscar talks a lot of shit but what boxer doesn't? And yes he does come across to me as a little fake but give the guy SOME credit he did take on some tough fighters still in their prime and although he will never go down as an all time great I don't think he deserves all the flak he gets.

And I can't blame the guy for not wanting any part of either Cotto or Margarito, he's at the tale end of his career and wants to go out with a 'W' which is fully understandable.

IF he does end up taking on the Pac-Man though I agree he fully deserves the roasting he would get on these and other forums.
Mean Mister Mustard
QUOTE(damarvelous1 @ Aug 4 2008, 11:03 PM) [snapback]399033[/snapback]
Maybe those guys were not in there prime! But I think it's a stretch to call De La Hoya a fraud! He's a smart business man IMHO! I know lately he's been acting like a real female!!!

"Oh!, I wont fight Tito because my wife wears the pants and strap ons in my family! hehehe"

"Oh! I wont fight Tony because he's a mexican and we may be related some how! hehehe"

"Oh I really enjoy having sex! especially when I dont cum!"

I know I know, he may be a loser! But personally I think the man has had a great career and he made a lot of money!


I liked the middle portion of your post but you need to work on your beginning and endings. Not enough hate on them.
Mean Mister Mustard
QUOTE(the ollie reed fan club @ Aug 4 2008, 11:05 PM) [snapback]399034[/snapback]
Not sure why Oscar is being called a fraud.

Let me preface this by saying I'm not a huge ODLH fan but nor do I hate the guy either.

In his career he fought pretty much everyone in and around his weight class (Winky excepted) yes some were smaller but some were bigger.

Although Quartey may have looked sloppy in his fight before ODLH he was still a very much a 'live' opponent going into that fight. '

Trinidad was considered a beast (and the bigger fighter) when they tangled and B-Hop was relatively fresh from dismantling Tito when Oscar agreed to fight him so I don't think he always went after the smaller 'past it' guys.

Sure we all know retrospectively that Vargas was pretty much damaged goods after Tito, but again at the time he was the bigger guy than Oscar and was thought by many to still be a very dangerous opponent.

Yeah Oscar padded his resume with a couple of big money fights with faded name fighters like Whitaker and Chavez but then again which boxer in his position wouldn't? Why is he such a bad guy for doing the logical thing?

People gripe about Oscar always taking the bulk of the pay per view money but if he's the draw then he should get the top dollar.

Look at it like this.

Say in the 90's De Niro and Schwarzenegger had made a film together. De Niro's got 2 Oscar's (no pun intended) and Arnold's last 3 films have made over $500 million combined at the box office. Who do you think is going to get the bigger salary?

And then say they make another film 5 years down the track. In that time maybe De Niro won another Oscar but Arnold's last 2 films were massive box office hits, again who do you think is going to get the bigger piece of the pie? It's an economic decision.

I'm not saying I agree with it, but it's simple supply and demand.

It also holds true for purses in boxing, particularly PPV purses.

And if I'm correct the other guys fighting didn't do too bad either. As I understand it B-Hop, Mosley and PBF ALL made career high paydays when they fought Oscar and probably most other guys that fought him also could claim the same.

Why do you think anyone anywhere near 147 calls out Oscar? Why do you think a guy like Manny who started at 108 wants to face the Golden Goose?

Sure Oscar talks a lot of shit but what boxer doesn't? And yes he does come across to me as a little fake but give the guy SOME credit he did take on some tough fighters still in their prime and although he will never go down as an all time great I don't think he deserves all the flak he gets.

And I can't blame the guy for not wanting any part of either Cotto or Margarito, he's at the tale end of his career and wants to go out with a 'W' which is fully understandable.

IF he does end up taking on the Pac-Man though I agree he fully deserves the roasting he would get on these and other forums.


You make good points.

I'm not discussing the financial aspects of the fights, not sure how they cam up anyway. ONly that DLH got a lot of his work done before he hit 147 and those guys were smaller and past their prime. Give him credit for blowin them out but that's it.

He fought everyone, like you and I said, but he never beat them Yet people talk about him as if he's ATG. He's not. Still the title of the thread is a bit too harsh with the FRAUD thing.

The CEO
QUOTE
Maybe those guys were not in there prime! But I think it's a stretch to call De La Hoya a fraud! He's a smart business man IMHO! I know lately he's been acting like a real female!!!

"Oh!, I wont fight Tito because my wife wears the pants and strap ons in my family! hehehe"

"Oh! I wont fight Tony because he's a mexican and we may be related some how! hehehe"

"Oh I really enjoy having sex! especially when I dont cum!"

I know I know, he may be a loser! But personally I think the man has had a great career and he made a lot of money!




laugh.gif

That's funny shit, marvelous....but what also gets me is all those casual, uninformed fans who see him as the face of Boxing and think he's still #1 P4P...like if he were to fight Pavlik, they would still pick De La Hoya....not having a clue. He has completely combed the wool over the sheep's eyes for way too long....

This fake ass bitch represents the sport we love....and I don't like it.

This ain't 1998. That De La Hoya has been dead for 10 years....
hardhead
QUOTE(the ollie reed fan club @ Aug 5 2008, 03:05 AM) [snapback]399034[/snapback]
Not sure why Oscar is being called a fraud.

Let me preface this by saying I'm not a huge ODLH fan but nor do I hate the guy either.

In his career he fought pretty much everyone in and around his weight class (Winky excepted) yes some were smaller but some were bigger.

Although Quartey may have looked sloppy in his fight before ODLH he was still a very much a 'live' opponent going into that fight. '

Trinidad was considered a beast (and the bigger fighter) when they tangled and B-Hop was relatively fresh from dismantling Tito when Oscar agreed to fight him so I don't think he always went after the smaller 'past it' guys.

Sure we all know retrospectively that Vargas was pretty much damaged goods after Tito, but again at the time he was the bigger guy than Oscar and was thought by many to still be a very dangerous opponent.

Yeah Oscar padded his resume with a couple of big money fights with faded name fighters like Whitaker and Chavez but then again which boxer in his position wouldn't? Why is he such a bad guy for doing the logical thing?

People gripe about Oscar always taking the bulk of the pay per view money but if he's the draw then he should get the top dollar.

Look at it like this.

Say in the 90's De Niro and Schwarzenegger had made a film together. De Niro's got 2 Oscar's (no pun intended) and Arnold's last 3 films have made over $500 million combined at the box office. Who do you think is going to get the bigger salary?

And then say they make another film 5 years down the track. In that time maybe De Niro won another Oscar but Arnold's last 2 films were massive box office hits, again who do you think is going to get the bigger piece of the pie? It's an economic decision.

I'm not saying I agree with it, but it's simple supply and demand.

It also holds true for purses in boxing, particularly PPV purses.

And if I'm correct the other guys fighting didn't do too bad either. As I understand it B-Hop, Mosley and PBF ALL made career high paydays when they fought Oscar and probably most other guys that fought him also could claim the same.

Why do you think anyone anywhere near 147 calls out Oscar? Why do you think a guy like Manny who started at 108 wants to face the Golden Goose?

Sure Oscar talks a lot of shit but what boxer doesn't? And yes he does come across to me as a little fake but give the guy SOME credit he did take on some tough fighters still in their prime and although he will never go down as an all time great I don't think he deserves all the flak he gets.

And I can't blame the guy for not wanting any part of either Cotto or Margarito, he's at the tale end of his career and wants to go out with a 'W' which is fully understandable.

IF he does end up taking on the Pac-Man though I agree he fully deserves the roasting he would get on these and other forums.



Agreed, although I'm not really sure what the OP's points really are beyond "Oscar is a fraud."
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE(Mean Mister Mustard @ Aug 4 2008, 10:11 PM) [snapback]399037[/snapback]
You make good points.

I'm not discussing the financial aspects of the fights, not sure how they cam up anyway. ONly that DLH got a lot of his work done before he hit 147 and those guys were smaller and past their prime. Give him credit for blowin them out but that's it.

He fought everyone, like you and I said, but he never beat them Yet people talk about him as if he's ATG. He's not. Still the title of the thread is a bit too harsh with the FRAUD thing.


I think the money was bought up because the intial gist of the first post was that he was bad for PPV boxing.

Well they were his fans and if he managed to cultivate a fanbase (without being the best fighter out there) then more power to him.

I also think he got a couple of lucky decisions and was unlucky too. Despite not really enjoying his tactics I thought he won the Trinidad fight. Ultimately to get the decision you have to win more rounds than your opponent which is what (in my humble opinion) he did and I thought he won the Mosley rematch (and if you listen to captain Jack talking to Shane in bewteen rounds so did he) but hey that's boxing I suppose as I guess Felix Sturm would attest to!

Like you I thought the title of the thread was a little OTT, I think ultimately Oscar has done more to raise the profile of boxing rather than harm it. Whether this continues with his promotional company remains to be seen but I fear he's already turning into bob Arum in that regard.
The Boxing Fan
QUOTE(the ollie reed fan club @ Aug 4 2008, 11:05 PM) [snapback]399034[/snapback]
Not sure why Oscar is being called a fraud.

Let me preface this by saying I'm not a huge ODLH fan but nor do I hate the guy either.

In his career he fought pretty much everyone in and around his weight class (Winky excepted) yes some were smaller but some were bigger.

Although Quartey may have looked sloppy in his fight before ODLH he was still a very much a 'live' opponent going into that fight. '

Trinidad was considered a beast (and the bigger fighter) when they tangled and B-Hop was relatively fresh from dismantling Tito when Oscar agreed to fight him so I don't think he always went after the smaller 'past it' guys.

Sure we all know retrospectively that Vargas was pretty much damaged goods after Tito, but again at the time he was the bigger guy than Oscar and was thought by many to still be a very dangerous opponent.

Yeah Oscar padded his resume with a couple of big money fights with faded name fighters like Whitaker and Chavez but then again which boxer in his position wouldn't? Why is he such a bad guy for doing the logical thing?

People gripe about Oscar always taking the bulk of the pay per view money but if he's the draw then he should get the top dollar.

Look at it like this.

Say in the 90's De Niro and Schwarzenegger had made a film together. De Niro's got 2 Oscar's (no pun intended) and Arnold's last 3 films have made over $500 million combined at the box office. Who do you think is going to get the bigger salary?

And then say they make another film 5 years down the track. In that time maybe De Niro won another Oscar but Arnold's last 2 films were massive box office hits, again who do you think is going to get the bigger piece of the pie? It's an economic decision.

I'm not saying I agree with it, but it's simple supply and demand.

It also holds true for purses in boxing, particularly PPV purses.

And if I'm correct the other guys fighting didn't do too bad either. As I understand it B-Hop, Mosley and PBF ALL made career high paydays when they fought Oscar and probably most other guys that fought him also could claim the same.

Why do you think anyone anywhere near 147 calls out Oscar? Why do you think a guy like Manny who started at 108 wants to face the Golden Goose?

Sure Oscar talks a lot of shit but what boxer doesn't? And yes he does come across to me as a little fake but give the guy SOME credit he did take on some tough fighters still in their prime and although he will never go down as an all time great I don't think he deserves all the flak he gets.

And I can't blame the guy for not wanting any part of either Cotto or Margarito, he's at the tale end of his career and wants to go out with a 'W' which is fully understandable.

IF he does end up taking on the Pac-Man though I agree he fully deserves the roasting he would get on these and other forums.

Hmm, you have point except the part of the money. The Hopkins fight, I wanted to see him get dismantled. Trinidad had as much a fanfare as Oscar. I don't agree with the split with them. The Mayweather fight should be split equal if Oscar would do right and he's not the draw, Money Mayweather is now. If you fight anywhere other than Vegas or California, Oscar is not really the hometown kid. And Yes he did pad his resume with has been fighters. If he fights Pernell in his prime, he get schooled. If he fights Chavez at Lightweight in his prime, he gets brutalized. If he fights Camacho before the Resario fight, he get schooled.
Arum knew what he wanted to do. He would not fight Forrest when Forrest was like 24-0 because Forest is big for a welter also
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE(The Boxing Fan @ Aug 4 2008, 10:25 PM) [snapback]399042[/snapback]
Hmm, you have point except the part of the money. The Hopkins fight, I wanted to see him get dismantled. Trinidad had as much a fanfare as Oscar. I don't agree with the split with them. The Mayweather fight should be split equal if Oscar would do right and he's not the draw, Money Mayweather is now. If you fight anywhere other than Vegas or California, Oscar is not really the hometown kid. And Yes he did pad his resume with has been fighters. If he fights Pernell in his prime, he get schooled. If he fights Chavez at Lightweight in his prime, he gets brutalized. If he fights Camacho before the Resario fight, he get schooled.
Arum knew what he wanted to do. He would not fight Forrest when Forrest was like 24-0 because Forest is big for a welter also


Trinidad may have had as much fanfare (with hardcore fight fans) but I bet you his PPV numbers didn't stack up anywhere near Oscar's going into their fight.

Put it this way, Oscar is world famous the same cannot be said of Trinidad.

Again I must emphasise I'm not saying I agree with it, but it is what it is.

Mayweather hasn't convinced me he does Oscar-like numbers without the right dance partner. You have to remember Oscar can fight nobodies and still draw great numbers although in looking at the Steve Forbes numbers his start appeal is on the wane.

But you can't confuse PPV with talent. I don't disagree with you about which fighters would beat Oscar but somehow with this cheesy grin and 'good guy' persona Oscar has manged to cultivate a PPV fanbase unpparalelled in the history of PPV boxing.

Does that make him a fraud or does it mean his audience is gullible?

Mean Mister Mustard
QUOTE(The Boxing Fan @ Aug 4 2008, 11:25 PM) [snapback]399042[/snapback]
Hmm, you have point except the part of the money. The Hopkins fight, I wanted to see him get dismantled. Trinidad had as much a fanfare as Oscar. I don't agree with the split with them. [b]The Mayweather fight should be split equal if Oscar would do right and he's not the draw, Money Mayweather is now. If you fight anywhere other than Vegas or California, Oscar is not really the hometown kid.[/b] And Yes he did pad his resume with has been fighters. If he fights Pernell in his prime, he get schooled. If he fights Chavez at Lightweight in his prime, he gets brutalized. If he fights Camacho before the Resario fight, he get schooled.
Arum knew what he wanted to do. He would not fight Forrest when Forrest was like 24-0 because Forest is big for a welter also


It doesn't matter if DLH fights on top of Mount Everest, people pay to see him not Mayweather.
The Boxing Fan
QUOTE(the ollie reed fan club @ Aug 4 2008, 11:35 PM) [snapback]399043[/snapback]
Trinidad may have had as much fanfare (with hardcore fight fans) but I bet you his PPV numbers didn't stack up anywhere near Oscar's going into their fight.

Put it this way, Oscar is world famous the same cannot be said of Trinidad.

Again I must emphasise I'm not saying I agree with it, but it is what it is.

Mayweather hasn't convinced me he does Oscar-like numbers without the right dance partner. You have to remember Oscar can fight nobodies and still draw great numbers although in looking at the Steve Forbes numbers his start appeal is on the wane.

But you can't confuse PPV with talent. I don't disagree with you about which fighters would beat Oscar but somehow with this cheesy grin and 'good guy' persona Oscar has manged to cultivate a PPV fanbase unpparalelled in the history of PPV boxing.

Does that make him a fraud or does it mean his audience is gullible?

The numbers come in only when he is fighting in Vegas and he picks an opponent that will make him look good for publicity i.e Mayweather, Quartey, Mosley, and Hopkins. He was brought up as this Golden Boy persona, but his monry split with fighters like Mayweather and Trinidad were seen to be unfair to me in my opinion. Both of them had just as much as a following and Fanfare than him. On top of that he wasn't willing to split the money equally the second time around. He has fought some good opponents, but they were past their prime or he was just bigger than them.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE(Mean Mister Mustard @ Aug 4 2008, 10:43 PM) [snapback]399044[/snapback]
It doesn't matter if DLH fights on top of Mount Everest, people pay to see him not Mayweather.


I think if Oscar fought on the top of Mt Everest he would get gassed quicker than usual!
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE(The Boxing Fan @ Aug 4 2008, 10:51 PM) [snapback]399046[/snapback]
The numbers come in only when he is fighting in Vegas and he picks an opponent that will make him look good for publicity i.e Mayweather, Quartey, Mosley, and Hopkins. He was brought up as this Golden Boy persona, but his monry split with fighters like Mayweather and Trinidad were seen to be unfair to me in my opinion. Both of them had just as much as a following and Fanfare than him. On top of that he wasn't willing to split the money equally the second time around. He has fought some good opponents, but they were past their prime or he was just bigger than them.



Forget the past the prime stuff, every elite fighter picks up a couple of 'past their prime' victims to add to their resume.

As for your argument about Tito and PBF you're still not getting it.

Look at it this way, if Tito and PBF were just as big as draws as Oscar was leading into their fights why do you think they took less than 50/50 money? Because they understood that irrespective of talent or rankings Oscar was the PPV draw in both fights.

If their PPV numbers were as big as Oscar's then surely they wouldn't have fought for anything less than 50/50?

Explain that to me.
MarzB
I can't stand the guy myself. Not only is he overrated but you can't believe ANYTHING he "says".

A fraud, maybe not an all time great, HELL NO. I've said it before On the scale of poor, average/fair, good, very good, excellent and elite Dela Hoya in his prime teetered on the very good scale but he's pretty much between good-very good. He's NEVER NEVER beaten a guy who was above his weight class, that wasn't shop worn or past their primes.

To me his biggest wins are RUELAS & HERNANDEZ fight people have long forgotten. Impressive though.

I wish people would stop talking about how he took on all comers. BuLLSCHIT!!! He didn't fight Forrest when they were both welters and he's avoided Winky like the plague when they both at Junior Middle.

How many times do "I" have to say that if you earn $35 million in a fight (against Hopkns) where really is the RISK?? He stood NOTHING to lose in that fight and (some) people STILL laud him over that. Especially when you consider how he looked like UTTER SCHIT against Felix Sturm.

In the words of Larry Holmes, Oscar had the right "complexion for the connection" Does anyone believe if Oscar looked like Roger Mayweather that he would have had the opportunities that he's been given?? I mean seriously the dude is an alleged rapist for crying out loud yet that story was silenced quickly. Do you all think he would have been afforded the luxuries he was given??

TOP Rank did an EXCELLENT job of managing him and promoting him. So well in fact that he figured out how much money they were making off of him and got a swiss banker to start his own thing.
The Boxing Fan
QUOTE(the ollie reed fan club @ Aug 4 2008, 11:57 PM) [snapback]399049[/snapback]
Forget the past the prime stuff, every elite fighter picks up a couple of 'past their prime' victims to add to their resume.

As for your argument about Tito and PBF you're still not getting it.

Look at it this way, if Tito and PBF were just as big as draws as Oscar was leading into their fights why do you think they took less than 50/50 money? Because they understood that irrespective of talent or rankings Oscar was the PPV draw in both fights.

If their PPV numbers were as big as Oscar's then surely they wouldn't have fought for anything less than 50/50?

Explain that to me.

Not to be a smart ass here but I get it Friend. I dont think you get my point about the rematches. Oscar is never willing to return a favor to the winner i.e Mayweather and Trinidad. As much as I disdain some of Don Kings practices I had to agree with him on the rematch clause at the time. 70/30 for Tito which Arum thought was ludicrous and Arum didnt even want a 50/50 split. What the hell is up with that? Mayweather wanted an even share of the money and Oscar is not buying it.
MarzB
You can add the discussion about a 3rd Mosley fight and how Oscar still didn't want to give any type of parity in the negotiations there which lead to Shane fighting Winky for less but he felt the principal was, "I won twice".

I believe he even suggest they have a 60-40 take for the winner of the fight and Dela Hoya said no although I can't confirm that.
The Boxing Fan
QUOTE(MarzB @ Aug 5 2008, 12:16 AM) [snapback]399054[/snapback]
You can add the discussion about a 3rd Mosley fight and how Oscar still didn't want to give any type of parity in the negotiations there which lead to Shane fighting Winky for less but he felt the principal was, "I won twice".

I believe he even suggest they have a 60-40 take for the winner of the fight and Dela Hoya said no although I can't confirm that.

Amen! thumbsup_anim.gif
JLUVBABY
QUOTE(damarvelous1 @ Aug 4 2008, 09:01 PM) [snapback]399015[/snapback]
I think those that imply that Oscar is a fraud should be taken out back and beat with a stick!!!!!
Pernell Whitaker
Julio Cesar Chavez
Felix Trinidad
Shane Mosley
Floyd Mayweather
Ike Quartey
Fernando Vargas
Hector Camacho
Bernard Hopkins

Those guys are all Hall of Famers (maybe not Quartey). Oscar may have had size advantage but don't use that against him! I dont here anyone talking about Margarito... Should I call him a fraud for beating the much smaller Cotto? Give me a break. Oscar is a great fighter! Point Blank. Not an all time great but he is a great fighter. AND I REALLY CAN"T STAND THE GUY!



oscar is not a great fighter... oscar is a solid fighter that one might consider one of the greatest moved fighters of all times... his matchmaking early on is what made his myth that is today... lets say oscar fights guys more closer to his natural weight early on... does he remain the undefeated fighter he was?.. and the pay per view draw he became?... i might be in the minority but i dont give props to a guy fighting guys that he was physically bigger than.. go back and watch the old fights... hoya looked like a middle weight next to some of the guys he was fighting.. look at his fight with mayweather hoya was the bigger man in the ring that night but the cream rose, same thing with mosely... the fact is hoya never fought guys that had a real chance of winning especially early on... the fact is whitaker and chavez where old pro's and many people think whitaker beat him.. hoya dont beat a prime chavez... period.. of the fighters listed on that list camacho and vargas is probably the only fighter he beats outright and maybe felix trinidad had he had a champions heart... and he didnt have enough warrior in his heart to seal the deal in that fight over 12 rounds... and if they fought now i think the trinidad that fought roy beats him... i'm sure he thought hopkins was an old man ready to be taken and he fought with valor but man was he wrong (also the only guy he fought that was naturally bigger)... i hadnt mentioned quartey cuzz he loss that fight.. he recieved a house decision... of the 9 fighters you listed 6 of those fights he either lost or where contreversial fights where the decision was given to him... oscar did fraud the public early on, it is a fraud when you continusloy fight smaller named fighters, and after a while it was becoming obvious what the game plan was... fight as many small fighters and milk the public as long as possible.. im surprised they didnt call on azumah nelson for a fight... you forgot a name too.. genaro hernandez deserves to be on that list as well... again not triing to hate on oscar cuzz at the end of the day he was moved brilliantly but the truth still remains that his myth was built on fighters moving up in weight to fight him for most of his career... that dont make for a great fighter... to me that makes for one of the greatest matched fighters in history... if he wasnt triing to fraud the public (worse his true fans) he would be looking to exit boxing fighting the one fight that matters right now and that is antonio margarito and not little manny pac. who probably shouldnt be at lightweight right now... he was pushing to fight cotto a guy i think has the worse style he could face at this point... cotto would bust dela hoya up because of his style... no matter how you look at it manny vs. hoya is a train wreck... by the way margaritos career wasnt made on smaller fighters.. and cotto was on his way to cleaning out the division and most even myself thought he would add marg. to his list of victims... there is no way a comparison can be made with hoyas career and margaritos career... it is what it is and what it is is hoya has been a well moved fighter... a damn good fighter but not a great fighter.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE(MarzB @ Aug 4 2008, 11:16 PM) [snapback]399054[/snapback]
You can add the discussion about a 3rd Mosley fight and how Oscar still didn't want to give any type of parity in the negotiations there which lead to Shane fighting Winky for less but he felt the principal was, "I won twice".

I believe he even suggest they have a 60-40 take for the winner of the fight and Dela Hoya said no although I can't confirm that.


Dude I'm not saying it's right, it's just business.

I personally think he shoulda taken $5 million out of his $100 gazillion purse he got for the PBF fight and put on the most stunning undercard possible.

I'm also not saying I don't think Oscar's a greedy bastard because quite clearly he is, but from a business standpoint he is well within his rights to take the position he has.

Yeah Mosley turned down the 3rd fight and guess what? he's never sniffed a payday as big as he coulda got for fighting Oscar a third time. From a boxing fans perspective I admire Shane's stand but from a business perspective it's kinda dumb.

Look do you think when the HBO suits sit down at the negotiating table they give a rats arse about where a guy is on the P4P list or who won the last fight? All they care about is which guy generates the best revenue in relation to the purse they pay.

I agree it sucks but from a purely economic standpoint it's simple risk/reward ratio and I'm not sure why people on these baords find it so hard to grasp.

The Boxing Fan
QUOTE(JLUVBABY @ Aug 5 2008, 12:36 AM) [snapback]399060[/snapback]
oscar is not a great fighter... oscar is a solid fighter that one might consider one of the greatest moved fighters of all times... his matchmaking early on is what made his myth that is today... lets say oscar fights guys more closer to his natural weight early on... does he remain the undefeated fighter he was?.. and the pay per view draw he became?... i might be in the minority but i dont give props to a guy fighting guys that he was physically bigger than.. go back and watch the old fights... hoya looked like a middle weight next to some of the guys he was fighting.. look at his fight with mayweather hoya was the bigger man in the ring that night but the cream rose, same thing with mosely... the fact is hoya never fought guys that had a real chance of winning especially early on... the fact is whitaker and chavez where old pro's and many people think whitaker beat him.. hoya dont beat a prime chavez... period.. of the fighters listed on that list camacho and vargas is probably the only fighter he beats outright and maybe felix trinidad had he had a champions heart... and he didnt have enough warrior in his heart to seal the deal in that fight over 12 rounds... and if they fought now i think the trinidad that fought roy beats him... i'm sure he thought hopkins was an old man ready to be taken and he fought with valor but man was he wrong (also the only guy he fought that was naturally bigger)... i hadnt mentioned quartey cuzz he loss that fight.. he recieved a house decision... of the 9 fighters you listed 6 of those fights he either lost or where contreversial fights where the decision was given to him... oscar did fraud the public early on, it is a fraud when you continusloy fight smaller named fighters, and after a while it was becoming obvious what the game plan was... fight as many small fighters and milk the public as long as possible.. im surprised they didnt call on azumah nelson for a fight... you forgot a name too.. genaro hernandez deserves to be on that list as well... again not triing to hate on oscar cuzz at the end of the day he was moved brilliantly but the truth still remains that his myth was built on fighters moving up in weight to fight him for most of his career... that dont make for a great fighter... to me that makes for one of the greatest matched fighters in history... if he wasnt triing to fraud the public (worse his true fans) he would be looking to exit boxing fighting the one fight that matters right now and that is antonio margarito and not little manny pac. who probably shouldnt be at lightweight right now... he was pushing to fight cotto a guy i think has the worse style he could face at this point... cotto would bust dela hoya up because of his style... no matter how you look at it manny vs. hoya is a train wreck... by the way margaritos career wasnt made on smaller fighters.. and cotto was on his way to cleaning out the division and most even myself thought he would add marg. to his list of victims... there is no way a comparison can be made with hoyas career and margaritos career... it is what it is and what it is is hoya has been a well moved fighter... a damn good fighter but not a great fighter.

damn good post, I have been out done explaining the Fraud we Call "The Golden Boy"
thumbsup_anim.gif
MarzB
Lets make this clear. I personally CLEARLY understand the economics of ANYTHING let alone boxing. At the time Shane made that decision I can understand what may have motivated him to make that decision. Lets not forget Oscar's "FULL INVESTIGATION" comments after the fight.

My comments were to speak more on how he "SAYS" one thing and CLEARLY does another yet he's rarely criticized outside of hardcore boxing circles for this(hence me piling on to the "fraud" label). Not even the writers will hold him to task and I know why. They don't wanna bite the hand that feeds then (being shut out of future Golden Boy events).

Those points are MY personal issues. I also feel he didn't beat Quartey and how can I forget his biggest nutriding cheerleader of all time, "JIM LAMPLEY". I mean we've witnessed this even recently. A week before the Mayweather fight "I'm in the BEST SHAPE of my life". A week later, "I had a torn rotator cuff". Oh thats why you lost? Had NOTHING to do with your ineffective body attack and your timidness to throw the jab because you didn't want to get countered huh??

All that said though, every dog has their day and it happened to Ray Leonard (another guy who was obviously much more talented than Oscar but another guy who manipulated every situation in his favor) and it could happen to Oscar if he proceeds with this Pacquiao fight where he could get embarrassed.

One thing that DOESN'T favor DLH in this fight is Manny's speed factor and the fact that Freddy worked with Oscar so I'm sure he knows a lot more about Oscar and his tendencies that he feels Manny could exploit.
Warlord
QUOTE(Mean Mister Mustard @ Aug 4 2008, 06:08 PM) [snapback]398980[/snapback]
I think DLH should be given credit for at least stopping the smaller guys he fought ealry on in his career. He was also good enough to never be beaten up even against Hopkins.

That being I don't think he took part in the matchmaking early on in his career, that credit goes to Arum. But later in his career, you can tell DLH learned from Arum about fighting either smaller or past their prime foes who still had a name.

I mean did he really have to fight Chavez again? He could have fought Whitaker again and beaten him even more decisevely seeing as how Whitaker would have been 1 year older and hooked on nose sugar.

DId he pursue a Trinidad rematch? I mean did he pursue it with all his might?

Like the OP said, he took on Mosley just because he thought he would have the strength. advantage and he got his ass spanked.

Then he avoided Mosley for 3 years. And that was after Mosley looked below average in defeats against Forrest and a NC against Marquez. Which brings me to DLH only fighting guys after they've been beaten.

He fought Quartey after Bazooka looked bad against Lopez. He fought Vargas after Tito beat his ass. Fought Mosley after Forrest beat him. Fought Mayorga after Tito beat him.

Give him credit for fighting Hopkins and Mayweather but right now he's all about the money. He's a great fighter but not an ATG one. The publicity and adoration he receives only makes it seems like he deserves it.

The Vargas situation was the fucking worst. He always said he'd NEVER fight Vargas, claiming he'd never give Fernando the satisfaction or the payday, when the simple reality of it was that he didn't have the stones to fight a young, strong, heavy-handed fighter who was hungry to whip his ass. I still remember hearing stories about how Oscar would ask guys (Raul Marquez, for example) if Vargas hit hard, and all this other sissy shit.

So anyway, Vargas finally goes and gets himself fucked up good against Tito Trinidad, sustaining all kinds of brain damage and shit, ruining himself for life. Oscar sees the results of this in Vargas's fights with Rivera and Flores, and all of a sudden decides he's got the balls to take up the challenge. And the worst part is, a busted up, run down, permanently damaged Vargas still put Oscar through the meat grinder before succuming late, like he always did and always will, post-Trinidad.

Whatever though, Oscar is a joke and he always has been. This ain't exactly breaking news.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE(JLUVBABY @ Aug 4 2008, 11:36 PM) [snapback]399060[/snapback]
oscar is not a great fighter... oscar is a solid fighter that one might consider one of the greatest moved fighters of all times... his matchmaking early on is what made his myth that is today... lets say oscar fights guys more closer to his natural weight early on... does he remain the undefeated fighter he was?.. and the pay per view draw he became?... i might be in the minority but i dont give props to a guy fighting guys that he was physically bigger than.. go back and watch the old fights... hoya looked like a middle weight next to some of the guys he was fighting.. look at his fight with mayweather hoya was the bigger man in the ring that night but the cream rose, same thing with mosely... the fact is hoya never fought guys that had a real chance of winning especially early on... the fact is whitaker and chavez where old pro's and many people think whitaker beat him.. hoya dont beat a prime chavez... period.. of the fighters listed on that list camacho and vargas is probably the only fighter he beats outright and maybe felix trinidad had he had a champions heart... and he didnt have enough warrior in his heart to seal the deal in that fight over 12 rounds... and if they fought now i think the trinidad that fought roy beats him... i'm sure he thought hopkins was an old man ready to be taken and he fought with valor but man was he wrong (also the only guy he fought that was naturally bigger)... i hadnt mentioned quartey cuzz he loss that fight.. he recieved a house decision... of the 9 fighters you listed 6 of those fights he either lost or where contreversial fights where the decision was given to him... oscar did fraud the public early on, it is a fraud when you continusloy fight smaller named fighters, and after a while it was becoming obvious what the game plan was... fight as many small fighters and milk the public as long as possible.. im surprised they didnt call on azumah nelson for a fight... you forgot a name too.. genaro hernandez deserves to be on that list as well... again not triing to hate on oscar cuzz at the end of the day he was moved brilliantly but the truth still remains that his myth was built on fighters moving up in weight to fight him for most of his career... that dont make for a great fighter... to me that makes for one of the greatest matched fighters in history... if he wasnt triing to fraud the public (worse his true fans) he would be looking to exit boxing fighting the one fight that matters right now and that is antonio margarito and not little manny pac. who probably shouldnt be at lightweight right now... he was pushing to fight cotto a guy i think has the worse style he could face at this point... cotto would bust dela hoya up because of his style... no matter how you look at it manny vs. hoya is a train wreck... by the way margaritos career wasnt made on smaller fighters.. and cotto was on his way to cleaning out the division and most even myself thought he would add marg. to his list of victims... there is no way a comparison can be made with hoyas career and margaritos career... it is what it is and what it is is hoya has been a well moved fighter... a damn good fighter but not a great fighter.


Not sure why some slick marketing and snazzy matchmaking count as fraud.

You say he's not a great fighter and I agree, did he get some lucky decisions? Yes he did, but fraud is a bit strong.

I mean did people have a gun put to their heads before purchasing his fights?

Ultimately if his fanbase didn't like what they bought then they wouldn't have continued to pay for his PPV's.

But they obviously did, because his track record of PPV successes goes back many many years.

I think fans on this forum let emotion get in the way when judging Oscar's PPV worthiness and I can understand that. If you don't like the guy then it's going to annoy you that he's always made the bulk of the PPV dollars over fighters much more talented than him.

It's like that movie 'Titanic'.

I personally think it's the biggest pile of shit ever made but a whole bunch of people obviously disagree with me. Now were the makers of that film fraudulent or did they just understand that by putting pretty boy DeCaprio in a big budget high tech disaster movie was a recipe for box office gold?

People like what they like, and although your distaste for Oscar is evident (and I can see why, your points from a boxing perspective are solid) you can't argue that for some reason there are a whole lot people out there who like buying his fights and have done for a very long time.


The Boxing Fan
[quote name='the ollie reed fan club' date='Aug 5 2008, 01:05 AM' post='399071']
Not sure why some slick marketing and snazzy matchmaking count as fraud.

You say he's not a great fighter and I agree, did he get some lucky decisions? Yes he did, but fraud is a bit strong.

I mean did people have a gun put to their heads before purchasing his fights?

Ultimately if his fanbase didn't like what they bought then they wouldn't have continued to pay for his PPV's.

But they obviously did, because his track record of PPV successes goes back many many years.

I think fans on this forum let emotion get in the way when judging Oscar's PPV worthiness and I can understand that. If you don't like the guy then it's going to annoy you that he's always made the bulk of the PPV dollars over fighters much more talented than him.

It's like that movie 'Titanic'.

I personally think it's the biggest pile of shit ever made but a whole bunch of people obviously disagree with me. Now were the makers of that film fraudulent or did they just understand that by putting pretty boy DeCaprio in a big budget high tech disaster movie was a recipe for box office gold?

People like what they like, and although your distaste for Oscar is evident (and I can see why, your points from a boxing perspective are solid) you can't argue that for some reason there are a whole lot people out there who like buying his fights and have done for a very long time.
[/quoteActually
I bought them to watch him lose , like the Quartey fight, Trinidad, Mosley, Vargas,Hopkins, Mayweather. all of them payper views, I bought them to watch him lose. Its like Camacho back in the day when people wanted to see macho time get the shit kicked out of him. they would go to fight and even buy the ppv for him
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE(The Boxing Fan @ Aug 5 2008, 12:15 AM) [snapback]399073[/snapback]
QUOTE(the ollie reed fan club @ Aug 5 2008, 01:05 AM) [snapback]399071[/snapback]

Not sure why some slick marketing and snazzy matchmaking count as fraud.

You say he's not a great fighter and I agree, did he get some lucky decisions? Yes he did, but fraud is a bit strong.

I mean did people have a gun put to their heads before purchasing his fights?

Ultimately if his fanbase didn't like what they bought then they wouldn't have continued to pay for his PPV's.

But they obviously did, because his track record of PPV successes goes back many many years.

I think fans on this forum let emotion get in the way when judging Oscar's PPV worthiness and I can understand that. If you don't like the guy then it's going to annoy you that he's always made the bulk of the PPV dollars over fighters much more talented than him.

It's like that movie 'Titanic'.

I personally think it's the biggest pile of shit ever made but a whole bunch of people obviously disagree with me. Now were the makers of that film fraudulent or did they just understand that by putting pretty boy DeCaprio in a big budget high tech disaster movie was a recipe for box office gold?

People like what they like, and although your distaste for Oscar is evident (and I can see why, your points from a boxing perspective are solid) you can't argue that for some reason there are a whole lot people out there who like buying his fights and have done for a very long time.
[/quoteActually
I bought them to watch him lose , like the Quartey fight, Trinidad, Mosley, Vargas,Hopkins, Mayweather. all of them payper views, I bought them to watch him lose. Its like Camacho back in the day when people wanted to see macho time get the shit kicked out of him. they would go to fight and even buy the ppv for him




Please please don't tell me you believe Oscar's entire PPV career was built on people buying them solely to see him lose?

Please don't tell me that's your logic and reasoning. Oh dear. I give up I seriously do.

Dude all I can ask is what are you on and where can I get some?
Boxingjunkie
Let me make sure I understand this. Oscar wins Gold in the Olympics. Has a great smile everyone loves him. He makes millions fighting (Because people paid to see him, he didnt take the money from their wallets). He puts the people in the seats. And he is a fraud and a loser because of it??? I assume making a shit load of money is what athletes are supposed to do. Why would any of you care if the people who really made him rich were people who bought his PPV's that basicly knew nothing about boxing?? If you didint buy any of his PPV's then why should you care? Seems a bit stupid to me to be worrying what other people are spending their money on. Why do you care? If sports fans (Not so much boxing fans) want to spend THEIR money on his fights its their business.
And if he wants the lions share of the purse, THEN DONT FIGHT HIM. Happens every day in boxing. Oscar brings the money he should make the lions share. If any fighters out there dont like it, then dont fight him. There are plenty of fighters out there they can fight and make chump change if they want.
hitman
beat up an old chavez TWICE. never gave whitaker and quartey rematches. ran from tito and didn't want the rematch. lost to mosley who jumped up 2 weight classes and didn't want the rematch until after mosley looked shot after the forrest and marquez fights and still couldn't beat him. said he'd never fight vargas, then sees that vargas is shot and wants to fight him. makes hopkins come down to 157 and then takes a dive. made floyd come up to 154 and demanded they he used reyes gloves. now he's trying to fight a flyweight.
The Boxing Fan
QUOTE(the ollie reed fan club @ Aug 5 2008, 01:22 AM) [snapback]399074[/snapback]
Please please don't tell me you believe Oscar's entire PPV career was built on people buying them solely to see him lose?

Please don't tell me that's your logic and reasoning. Oh dear. I give up I seriously do.

Dude all I can ask is what are you on and where can I get some?



I can honestly say i bought the fights I listed to watch him lose, not to see him win. He won some good fight, but I look at the opponets and i say ok, he is a bum or he is too old or in Pacmans case to small. Sure he has a Fan base, in Vegas and California. Let him come east and see what happens. I'm confident alot of people bought ppv to see him lose like alot of people bought ppv to see Mayweather lose. De la hoya and Hatton come to mind when i say that. The Fraud part is the boast about his career and how he won all these wars or fights..well,, um ,,ok if your gonna fall for that. He's a good fighter , when the odds are stacked in his favor and he has always made sure of that.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE(The Boxing Fan @ Aug 5 2008, 12:53 AM) [snapback]399078[/snapback]
I can honestly say i bought the fights I listed to watch him lose, not to see him win. He won some good fight, but I look at the opponets and i say ok, he is a bum or he is too old or in Pacmans case to small. Sure he has a Fan base, in Vegas and California. Let him come east and see what happens. I'm confident alot of people bought ppv to see him lose like alot of people bought ppv to see Mayweather lose. De la hoya and Hatton come to mind when i say that. The Fraud part is the boast about his career and how he won all these wars or fights..well,, um ,,ok if your gonna fall for that. He's a good fighter , when the odds are stacked in his favor and he has always made sure of that.


I don't contend that YOU bought the the PPV to see him lose but you don't seriously expect me to believe his entire PPV numbers are based on only people watching to see him lose?

Dude that's what I call a Swiss Cheese argument: full of holes.

Based on that logic Joe Calslappy should be doing HUGE PPV numbers. LOL.

Secondly about the fan base, I think you're confusing a live gate with PPV. PPV numbers are based on the number of buys nationwide so are you now trying to say that the ONLY fans that have ever bought ODLH PPV's live in Vegas or LA?

The reason Oscar does such large PPV numbers is that he drags in the casual sports fan that doesn't often buy boxing matches. Sure Oscar does not have that much love in the hearts of hardcore fans but the casual sports fan considers him a good guy.

Lastly as for these 'boasts' about variosu wars and fights. I don't think Oscar has boasted more than any other elite level fighter. It's called marketing and hype which is pretty much a part of putting together any major bout these days.

It's a bit like PBF claiming he's better than Sugar Ray Robinson; sure he can say that but does anybody believe him?

The Boxing Fan
QUOTE(the ollie reed fan club @ Aug 5 2008, 04:22 AM) [snapback]399084[/snapback]
I don't contend that YOU bought the the PPV to see him lose but you don't seriously expect me to believe his entire PPV numbers are based on only people watching to see him lose?

Dude that's what I call a Swiss Cheese argument: full of holes.

Based on that logic Joe Calslappy should be doing HUGE PPV numbers. LOL.

Secondly about the fan base, I think you're confusing a live gate with PPV. PPV numbers are based on the number of buys nationwide so are you now trying to say that the ONLY fans that have ever bought ODLH PPV's live in Vegas or LA?

The reason Oscar does such large PPV numbers is that he drags in the casual sports fan that doesn't often buy boxing matches. Sure Oscar does not have that much love in the hearts of hardcore fans but the casual sports fan considers him a good guy.

Lastly as for these 'boasts' about variosu wars and fights. I don't think Oscar has boasted more than any other elite level fighter. It's called marketing and hype which is pretty much a part of putting together any major bout these days.

It's a bit like PBF claiming he's better than Sugar Ray Robinson; sure he can say that but does anybody believe him?



Of course the PPV numbers were not all to see him lose. Also he outside of Tyson has had some of the best marketing ploys and prefight hype commercials to sell him as The golden Boy' to put it simply. I'm pretty sure alot of people like him. I just sat back and watched his opponents how he went about his fights and actually watched the politics of it all and said this guy had a great career but he is bit of a Fraud to me. His opponents were hand picked for him. He was nurtured in the business and sports aspect of boxing of how to get over by none other than the Bob father himself. I see the same ploy with Cotto. Dont you see the Pattern. They picked certain opponents for Cotto to pad his record to ensure his great record except for one thing,Cotto lost. The good thing for Arum is the fact that Margarito is one of his fighters or he has options on his fights, not really sure but it seems to be a win win situation for Arum. Oscar will go down in history as an All time great and all this cool stuff, but I find his career mapped mostly for him by Arum and he just continued the same pattern.

The Ollie Reed Fan Club
Sure I see a pattern.

It's the promoters job to map out the career of their fighters, to get them as many easy paydays as possible with the odd meaningful fight thrown in. again please note as a fan I'm not saying I like it, but I do recognise it is their job.

Arum does it, Don King does it, Frank Warren does it, the promoters over in Germany do it, so why pick on ODHL?

Since you mentioned Tyson take him as an example, after he got out of the slammer who did King match him up with? Peter McNeely (to quote Ring magazine 'and you thought there were only 3 stooges') Buster Mathis Junior, Bruce Seldon and Frank Bruno, a veritable murderers list.

Hell the only reason King put Tyson in with Holyfield is they thought he was shot-whoops!!

PBF may have had a stellar first half of his career but the second half has been spent fighting the kind of guys you accuse ODHL of feasting on, guys past their prime (ODHL as a prime example), journeymen, shop worn and sub par fighters.

Again for your argument to remain consistent you have to throw in 95% of elite level fighters around today, even someone like B-Hop made sure he got over the 20 defenses line tangling with the Howard Eastman's of the world before taking on anyone too meanigful at middleweight. Is he a fraud too?
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
Oh and I don't see how fighting a prime Tito Trinidad is 'hand picking' an opponent.
The Boxing Fan
QUOTE(the ollie reed fan club @ Aug 5 2008, 05:15 AM) [snapback]399087[/snapback]
Oh and I don't see how fighting a prime Tito Trinidad is 'hand picking' an opponent.

I agree for the most part however Bhop fought everyone he had to fight except Roy again because he didnt have to. I laugh when people talk about Roys career like he ducked people. If the sanctioning bodies picked this guy or that for him to fight, he fought them. Its not Roy's or Bhops fault they had to fight the Bum of the month Club for mandatories. Tyson most certainly fought then when he got out of Prison. I swear Mathis looked like he took a dive just like Seldon. Oscar never fought that many mandatories if my memory serves me correctly. He always vacated or moved up in weight. The fraud aspet is "low risk for the Most reward" and he pulled it off for the most part. Thats just my opinion in regards to and how went about his career. I think he is trying to pull the wool over our eyes with this Pacman fight, but I not going for it. But if your Pacman you take the fight because its the most money you will ever make in your career. But I can see your point to a certain degree.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE(The Boxing Fan @ Aug 5 2008, 04:26 AM) [snapback]399089[/snapback]
I agree for the most part however Bhop fought everyone he had to fight except Roy again because he didnt have to. I laugh when people talk about Roys career like he ducked people. If the sanctioning bodies picked this guy or that for him to fight, he fought them. Its not Roy's or Bhops fault they had to fight the Bum of the month Club for mandatories. Tyson most certainly fought then when he got out of Prison. I swear Mathis looked like he took a dive just like Seldon. Oscar never fought that many mandatories if my memory serves me correctly. He always vacated or moved up in weight. The fraud aspet is "low risk for the Most reward" and he pulled it off for the most part. Thats just my opinion in regards to and how went about his career. I think he is trying to pull the wool over our eyes with this Pacman fight, but I not going for it. But if your Pacman you take the fight because its the most money you will ever make in your career. But I can see your point to a certain degree.


I think we'll end on an agreement then, the Pac-man fight would be a disgrace in my opinion. Not for Manny, take the money and get the beating, but Oscar should be ashamed.

Yeah he took (in parts) the low risk for most reward option but many fighters do. But he also took on a couple of challenges like B-Hop and Tito that in my opinion were quite ballsy.

Is he a fraud or just well marketed? I guess that depends on your point of view.


The Boxing Fan
QUOTE(the ollie reed fan club @ Aug 5 2008, 05:34 AM) [snapback]399090[/snapback]
I think we'll end on an agreement then, the Pac-man fight would be a disgrace in my opinion. Not for Manny, take the money and get the beating, but Oscar should be ashamed.

Yeah he took (in parts) the low risk for most reward option but many fighters do. But he also took on a couple of challenges like B-Hop and Tito that in my opinion were quite ballsy.

Is he a fraud or just well marketed? I guess that depends on your point of view.


Trinidad wasn't Ballsy. I actually was afraid he lost that fight. NOW Hopkins on the other hand was Lunacy but he was going for a decision. You can't tell he was looking for a KO against Hopkins.I mean Oscar has had a great career. I can say this he will get you alot although he gets the lion share of it all. But i like these type of debates. I'm receptive to other opinions always. You made some good points that are actually true. But Arum has nurtured and taught him well I must say.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE(The Boxing Fan @ Aug 5 2008, 04:50 AM) [snapback]399094[/snapback]
Trinidad wasn't Ballsy. I actually was afraid he lost that fight. NOW Hopkins on the other hand was Lunacy but he was going for a decision. You can't tell he was looking for a KO against Hopkins.I mean Oscar has had a great career. I can say this he will get you alot although he gets the lion share of it all. But i like these type of debates. I'm receptive to other opinions always. You made some good points that are actually true. But Arum has nurtured and taught him well I must say.


Arum also nurtured and taught PBF pretty well. Fighting Hatton over say Cotto, Williams or Margarito, now that's what I call a move from the Bob Arum playbook.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2014 Invision Power Services, Inc.