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Jack 1000
I think you have to look at the factors involved representing +'s and -'s with both Showtime and HBO:

+ Showtime:

They seem to purchase fights on an individualized basis and are less tied into long term contracts. However, their relationship to Garry Shaw, the bogus IBO belts, and faded champions like Tarver are not exactly feathers in their caps

They gave us Marquez-Vasquez I, II, and III, which HBO surly would have made PPV's. They also gave us the greatest action fight in the history of the sport, Corrales-Castillo I. The rematch was excellent also, although the PPV for the rematch bombed, it was a wake up call that Showtime learned, Not every fight can be a PPV.

The talents of Al Bernstien are great, and more than make up for the excitment levels generated by a PBS action with the likes of Nick Charles and Steve Farhood. They try their best, but the Shobox matches are for the most part subpar, Shobox is ESPN caliber type fights.

-HBO

Too much PPV's and too much medicore fights that have no business on PPV.

Boxing After Dark, once the brainchild of Lou Dibella produced some of the greatest action fights for the sport from 1996 to early 2000. Sadly, it has now become a showplace for C+ fighters against sacrafical lambs, so that the C+ fighter can get an undeserved payday

The announcing team is now little more than a pom-pom squad for the long term contracted fighter that they are obligated to promote. (Hell will freeze over before Lampley will say anything bad about Delahoya.)

Too much building stars with safe opponents rather than quality two sided fights. (i.e Mosely-Mayorga?) That's ABC Wide World of Sports caliber. Mayorga's best is long gone.) Only good side is that this fight is not PPV.

HBO is riding too much on "The Contender" b.s. Give "long term contracts" to 5-10 fighters, looking for some "diamond in the rough" instead of two-sided competitive fights. It's almost as if ever since Kery Davis took the helm at the network, the boxing department is afraid of their "pretty boys" losing, If Dibella was still there, HBO would have more competitive fights like in the past.

Given these conditions, it is HBO boxing that has slipped, more than Showtime.

Jack
Mean Mister Mustard
It is the general conensus that HBO has been on a steady decline in regards to how they handle their boxing affairs. You pretty much pointed out the major flaws. Take for example this week end's fights. Marquez-Cassamayor is an outstanding fight between two boxing masters who have never been completely dominated. Yet HBO decides to put it on PPV. Meanwhile Showtime gives us a quality fight between the man some consider the best lightweight in the world in Campbell against the slick and flashy undefeated Guzman. Knowing that most fans hate tactical battles and that if a fight doesn't feature a knockdown or wobbling it is called "boring" I doubt that many people are going to purcahse the PPV telecast.

Just for fun I'll list this year's PPV shows we have seen from HBO. If I miss one please include it.

Pavlik-Taylor II

Jones-Trinidad

Marquez-Pacquiao II

Cotto-Margarito

Pacquiao-Diaz

Right off the bat Pavlik's rematch with Taylor is BS, considering how their first fight was free and none of these guys are huge attractions outside their home cities.
Jones-Trinidad deserved to be free. Pacquiao-Diaz deserved to be free.

The toher two fights did merit their PPV status because of the stakes involved and because it was between 2 top guys.

Now look at Pavlik. A year ago in March 2007, HBO didn't even care about him and expected him to get knocked out by Miranda. Now at the end of 2008 he will have fought in 2 PPV main events which do not even deserve to be paid for. His lone free fight was a blowout of undeserving mediocre Lockett. Trusly sickening.

And Jack, I know that you share my sentiments in that WE boxing fans are the customers and just like any customer buying any other product, we should voice our opinions to those we help make rich and also choose not to buy their products as a sign of telling them we will not be swindled.

I know we are all boxing fans and most of us will watch just about anything boxing related. But the situation has gotten to the point where we will have to face reality on certian saturdays and miss some boxing in order to let these pigs know that we won't buy their crap. After all, it's only boxing, we won't die if we miss it.
Big Slim Sweet
QUOTE(Mean Mister Mustard @ Sep 10 2008, 11:25 AM) [snapback]403806[/snapback]
After all, it's only boxing, we won't die if we miss it.

LMAO. Just two nights ago my wife told me I should consider giving up HBO and Showtime in order for us to save money and I told her I'd rather die.
Big Slim Sweet
QUOTE(Mean Mister Mustard @ Sep 10 2008, 11:25 AM) [snapback]403806[/snapback]
Now look at Pavlik. A year ago in March 2007, HBO didn't even care about him and expected him to get knocked out by Miranda. Now at the end of 2008 he will have fought in 2 PPV main events which do not even deserve to be paid for. His lone free fight was a blowout of undeserving mediocre Lockett. Trusly sickening.

Co-sign. Here's a guy who's an absolute marketing dream, a guy who if he turns out to be all that in the ring could really help bring boxing back into the mainstream a little. Kellerman couldn't stop yapping about it the last time he fought. And yet here's HBO essentially killing off all his momentum. Pathetic.
Mean Mister Mustard
QUOTE(Big Slim @ Sep 10 2008, 02:05 PM) [snapback]403817[/snapback]
LMAO. Just two nights ago my wife told me I should consider giving up HBO and Showtime in order for us to save money and I told her I'd rather die.


LOL, I can imagine your facial expression after she told you that. Stone cold expression and uttering those words in the upmost of seriousness.

It's easy to say "I won't watch boxing for a while" but it is hardeer to do, no doubt about that. But seeing the grave nature of our situation I am afraid we have no choice but to make a sacrifice.

HBO ruining any momentum they built with Pavlik is about as dumb a move as they have made. It is pretty much established that the current HBO regime is running the network into the sewer.

Last HBO telecast was good, and although the fights didn't quite live up to the fight of the year candidates we expected they were still quality matchups. But for every good B.A.D or WC card we have we receive 2 or 3 awful ones. Andre Berto against bums in undercard and main events is a big no no and another example of HBO trying to build up its potential star through awful mismatches that waste the already rare free HBO slots.
stateofthegame
If you guys want on the non-buying ppv bandwagon you will have to be behind me. I quit buying ppv a long time ago. The last one I ordered was Taylor-Hopkins II.
The CEO
and you gotta get behind ME, state....lol....my last one may have been Mayweather-Hatton....but before that, it was Mosley-DLH I!!
Mean Mister Mustard
QUOTE(stateofthegame @ Sep 10 2008, 06:50 PM) [snapback]403828[/snapback]
If you guys want on the non-buying ppv bandwagon you will have to be behind me. I quit buying ppv a long time ago. The last one I ordered was Taylor-Hopkins II.


Not bad. So you don't watch PPV's or you don't buy them but still manage to watch them?
stateofthegame
I usually catch the replay on HBO the next week, or if some one I know orders ir I may get it then. It is not just boxing though, I quit ordering UFC events shortly after Zuffa took over.
stateofthegame
I want to say that before Taylor-Hopkins II, the last one I ordered was Hopkins-Trinidad.
King Eugene
The only Pay-Per-Views I ever bought where Jones-Trinidad and Mayweather-Hatton. I know I know...you dont have to say it. They where both party themes and as everybody know Jones is my favorite fighter. I normally wouldnt buy them, I'd just go somewhere and watch them but I had to get these two.
Big Slim Sweet
QUOTE(stateofthegame @ Sep 10 2008, 05:50 PM) [snapback]403828[/snapback]
The last one I ordered was Taylor-Hopkins II.

Damn, you sure picked a dogshit one to go out on. laugh.gif

I have a few friends into boxing and we generally rotate with fights we want to see. In 2008 I bought Margarito-Cotto (worth it) and Pavlik-Taylor 2 (not worth it). Friend of mine got Pac-JMM 2 (worth it) and Jones-Tito (not worth it but he was having a party anyways so figured what the hell).

As for the rest of the year I don't see myself getting this week's, Pavlik-BHop or Zags-RJJ. I'll be looking for someone else to get DLH-Pac. Figure someone you know always buys Oscar.
Mean Mister Mustard
QUOTE(Big Slim @ Sep 11 2008, 11:51 AM) [snapback]403874[/snapback]
Damn, you sure picked a dogshit one to go out on. laugh.gif

I have a few friends into boxing and we generally rotate with fights we want to see. In 2008 I bought Margarito-Cotto (worth it) and Pavlik-Taylor 2 (not worth it). Friend of mine got Pac-JMM 2 (worth it) and Jones-Tito (not worth it but he was having a party anyways so figured what the hell).

As for the rest of the year I don't see myself getting this week's, Pavlik-BHop or Zags-RJJ. I'll be looking for someone else to get DLH-Pac. Figure someone you know always buys Oscar.


I'd forgotten that Calzaghe-Jones will be PPV. HBO boxing=Turd
Big Slim Sweet
QUOTE(Mean Mister Mustard @ Sep 11 2008, 11:03 AM) [snapback]403875[/snapback]
HBO boxing=Turd

Word.
stateofthegame
The funny thing is that I ordered Taylor-Hopkins II and I had to go o a Christmas party, so I set everything to record and when I got home nothing worked, but the Taylor fight was just starting so I was thankful that I was going to at least see that and then a tornado came through and knocked my sat out and I missed the whole thing.
BGv2.0
IMHO....both networks are going down....but Showtime is just awful....I dumped it early this year and have no regrets about it. I'd like to see Peter/Vitali....but I'll just catch a RBR here or something. BUT....I think the real question is.....are both networks in a decline because boxing on the whole is?

And as for the whole PPV argument....that does not even enter into my factoring as I don't buy em.....the last one I bought was about 4 years ago....DKs HW triple header.

I dumped Showtime because I saw nothing of interest for me for months.....I also took into account the other programming offered.

IMHO....you can't compare the two.

With HBO I get Curb Your Enthusiasm, Bill Maher, In Treatment and their documentary series.

With Showtime.....absolute GARBAGE shows like Tudors, Weeds and Californication.

The choice was easy for me.

JonnyBlaze
I like HBO as a whole more since I'm a big Curb Your Enthusiasm fan..I've been wondering if Larry is going to do another season??I'd really wonder what he'd do in the next season if he decides to..As far as boxing though,Showtime is better based soley on they don't make any big named fighter a PPV guy ONLY..HBO needs to think more about the fans and not their wallet..
Jack 1000
The only reasons why I am keeping my Showtime is I was able to negotiate a new discount rate with my cable company. Overall, Showtime does have better boxing. But HBO and Showtime are primarily movie services, and HBO has better movies, and overall better programing. Showtime for programing, always seems to be a secondary network. When people think of cable and premium channels they are more often to think of HBO before any of the others. With high speed Internet service available to most markets, at least there are other options for non subscribers to see boxing through streaming video, even though it's not exactly the most comfortable to sit at a computer monitor for 2-3 hours as opposed to a big TV screen.

I haven't done longitudinal research on this, but I would estimate that a quality fight that is good to great comes along on HBO, Showtime, or PPV maybe about once every 3-5 months. If you are just interested in boxing, your paying let's say $12/mo. x 3 months $36 for those three months waiting for the next Cotto-Margarito, Marquez-Vasquez or Ward-Gatti I to come along at $12/for 5 months, $60. So there is really 2-3 months per quarter where there is no good boxing at all. Since Showtime has been reduced to slightly better than a good to great fight once or twice per quarter, and HBO has everything decent and often times not so decent restricted to PPV, overall the pay-TV experience is not worth the money unless you like to watch the channels for the movies.

The boxing is simply a bonus. Nothing wrong with that. And if Lou Dibella was still doing the kind of bouts that HBO B.A.D produced from 1996-early 2000 the experience and price would be well worth it. But to Listen to Jim and Larry call a fight that's a week old from PPV is not going to draw new viewers to the sport. It seems that the overall PPV experience at $50 a fight on average MIGHT be OK if you have the money and a guaranteed barn burner. But the problem remains, economically most people don't want to take that $50-$60 calculated risk on a potential 1-2 round blow out, especially if they have consolidated cable, Internet, and phone service on the same bill.

The main problem is: People can't afford the asking price already added to their high bills and in today's economic times, can't afford to be ripped off anymore.

Jack
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