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blackbelt2003
Is anyone else becoming fed up with all these catchweight bouts going on at the moment?

Recently there's been Calzaghe-Hopkins, Hopkins-Pavlik, Abraham-Miranda and now De La Hoya-Pacquiao.


Have these guys got no-one to fight in their own weight classes? Seriously...what's the point in weight classes and having world champions if you're gonna get, say, the top lightweight fighting a welter/jr middleweight? What...Pacquiao didn't have any challenges in Marquez, Casamayor or Campbell?

And Hopkins couldn't have taken on Chad Dawson? Or De La Hoya couldn't have fought Margarito?


Back in the old days catchweight fights were cool because they came in between title defences as extra money makers.

But here, in the modern era, with fighters only fighting once or twice per year, the catchweight fights are coming INSTEAD of the title defences.

I'd much rather have seen Pavlik-Abraham than for the two of them to have fought Hopkins and Miranda. What good was a light-heavyweight and super-middleweight 12 rounder in place of a good old fashioned unification?


All it's done is set the middleweight division back six months, screw up the light-heavyweight division and make a mess...all for a fairly dull 12 rounder that was only mildly entertaining because of the B-Hop's skills and personality.


I hope after this year everything settles down, and Pavlik fights at middleweight, Hopkins (and Calzaghe) challenges for a title belt against Chad Dawson and Pacquiao goes back down to lightweight to fight the aforementioned trio.

I'd add DLH fighting Margarito but I KNOW that's asking too much.




Black
Fitz
I agree. They are happening way too frequently now, and I hope they are not trying to soften us up for introducing something new regarding those catch weights. You mentioned a few of the examples in recent times, but there are seriously that much more to see how bad it's getting.
  1. Vargas-Mayorga
  2. Pavlik-Taylor
  3. Jones Jr-Trinidad
  4. Hopkins-Wright (Hopkins reign at Light heavy has been 4 fights, only one officially at 175)
  5. DLH-Forbes

I don't like it one bit. Also, doesn't this kinda of reflect that the old weight system where they didn't have all these super and junior divisions was much better? You certainly wouldn't be getting as much of this.
caneman
Could you imagine how some of these fighters would cry if they went back to only 8 weight classes? laugh.gif I will say this though, these days they ALMOST need a super heavy weight division. I don't mind but catch weights should only be made be made for super fights but other than that I believe they are making way too many of them as well!
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(caneman @ Oct 31 2008, 06:44 PM) [snapback]408880[/snapback]
Could you imagine how some of these fighters would cry if they went back to only 8 weight classes? laugh.gif I will say this though, these days they ALMOST need a super heavy weight division. I don't don't but catch weights should only be made be made for super fights but other than that I believe they are making way too many of them as well!

I like that there are more weight classes but that's the reason why catch weights shouldn't be happening soo much..I don't mind them really but they can get old..I think a super heavyweight division might be good but yet I don't think so either..The heavyweight division is history,I don't want that to change and to have guys above the heavyweight divison of old and new..I just wish guys would trim up and really come in to fights in tip top shape..The Klitchkos are a good weight for their height but guys like Sam Peter need to trim up to like 220-230 at most..How the fuck is Sam Peter fighting at 250??Weight is overrated..Jack Dempsey proved that right!!
JonnyBlaze
I want to clarify weight being overrated actually..I mean at heavyweight,not other weight classes..Guys at heavyweight these days feel they need to be 230-250 to keep up with the times..Lets hope guys start to come in at a weight they really should be at and not ridiculous shit like they do these days..6'2=200-220 at most..6'7=220-250 at most..I just wish guys would go back to the old days and think about Ali who was 6'4 and was around 205-220..These guys want power,but forgot that speed=power!!
Fitz
QUOTE(JonnyBlaze @ Nov 1 2008, 10:51 AM) [snapback]408882[/snapback]
I like that there are more weight classes but that's the reason why catch weights shouldn't be happening soo much..I don't mind them really but they can get old..I think a super heavyweight division might be good but yet I don't think so either..The heavyweight division is history,I don't want that to change and to have guys above the heavyweight divison of old and new..I just wish guys would trim up and really come in to fights in tip top shape..The Klitchkos are a good weight for their height but guys like Sam Peter need to trim up to like 220-230 at most..How the fuck is Sam Peter fighting at 250??Weight is overrated..Jack Dempsey proved that right!!


I don't know how this way is better. The reason I hate this system more is we get fighters dehydrating themselves to actually make weight, because with this system you have the day before weigh in, and then you have fighters rehydrating themselves and often on fight night, we can see big differences in fighters in terms of size. Some fights actually put on 15-16lbs after the weigh in. This way, you also get more fighters not making weight, because they are trying to get themselves down to a weight that just isn't natural too them, they just do it so they can rehydrate and then have size advantages or at least be level with his opponent.
The old system you had less weight classes, but you had weigh ins on the day. So the range of weights was higher on the class, but was probably more fair. You actually have fighters fighting at there natural weight, because no fighter in there right mind would weigh in on the day dehydrated, and because they wouldn't be dehydrating themselves, you wouldn't see as many fighters not making weight, as they are fighting at the correct weight.
Not to mention how much deeper the talent would be in the division when yous take away all these junior and super divisions.
caneman
QUOTE(JonnyBlaze @ Oct 31 2008, 07:56 PM) [snapback]408883[/snapback]
I want to clarify weight being overrated actually..I mean at heavyweight,not other weight classes..Guys at heavyweight these days feel they need to be 230-250 to keep up with the times..Lets hope guys start to come in at a weight they really should be at and not ridiculous shit like they do these days..6'2=200-220 at most..6'7=220-250 at most..I just wish guys would go back to the old days and think about Ali who was 6'4 and was around 205-220..These guys want power,but forgot that speed=power!!



I think we all got the just of what you were saying but I have noticed that these guys are 250-265 & even a 300 lber & that is super heavy weight & these smaller guys @ 215-225 feel they need that extra weight IMO! I also much say if they did go that route & someone @ 215-225 wanted to challenge a guy from 250-300 lbs then they could sign of the dotted line & make the fight happen!
Mean Mister Mustard
On one hand a good fight is a good fight regardless of weight. On the other hand it does mean that most of these fights are being done merely for money.
King Eugene
QUOTE(Mean Mister Mustard @ Oct 31 2008, 09:49 PM) [snapback]408898[/snapback]
On one hand a good fight is a good fight regardless of weight. On the other hand it does mean that most of these fights are being done merely for money.

This is why I dont mind some of them.
blackbelt2003
A catchweight bout is good if a champion of one weight wants to take on a champion of another weight.


Any other case sucks. Why skip weights to fight someone else if you're not already the champion? Why take someone on from a lower weight class instead of the actual champ in your own weight division? I know people want belts to be meaningless in modern boxing, but if this is the alternative I'd rather have good old fashioned title defences.



Black
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(caneman @ Oct 31 2008, 07:11 PM) [snapback]408886[/snapback]
I think we all got the just of what you were saying but I have noticed that these guys are 250-265 & even a 300 lber & that is super heavy weight & these smaller guys @ 215-225 feel they need that extra weight IMO! I also much say if they did go that route & someone @ 215-225 wanted to challenge a guy from 250-300 lbs then they could sign of the dotted line & make the fight happen!

Exactly!!!The smaller guys feel they need to be bigger now and that's why all this is going on these days..It really sucks..Back in the day the 250-300 lbs guys were pretty rare..

Fitz,when talking about the heavyweights,I think these guys are just fat and lazy when not fighting soo if they actually were to be fully commited to boxing and not just when they are training for a fight,dehydration would not be a problem for them..A guy who is 6'2,250 is out of shape no matter what..It's too much weight for your body at that height to be considered completely healthy..I think that weighing in on the day of the fight was better than what they do these days..Hell,amateurs still need to weigh in on the day of and not the day before soo I think pros should of kept it that way..I think we might get better fights that way too..Don't you??
Spyder
QUOTE(JonnyBlaze @ Nov 1 2008, 01:18 PM) [snapback]408914[/snapback]
Exactly!!!The smaller guys feel they need to be bigger now and that's why all this is going on these days..It really sucks..Back in the day the 250-300 lbs guys were pretty rare..

Fitz,when talking about the heavyweights,I think these guys are just fat and lazy when not fighting soo if they actually were to be fully commited to boxing and not just when they are training for a fight,dehydration would not be a problem for them..A guy who is 6'2,250 is out of shape no matter what..It's too much weight for your body at that height to be considered completely healthy..I think that weighing in on the day of the fight was better than what they do these days..Hell,amateurs still need to weigh in on the day of and not the day before soo I think pros should of kept it that way..I think we might get better fights that way too..Don't you??

No way. Fighters would still cut to make weight, only they wouldn't have the day to recover. So we'd be stuck watching weight-depleted fighters, fighting each other at less than their best. That would make for some boring, slooooow fights. John Ruiz type shit!
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(Spyder @ Nov 1 2008, 12:59 PM) [snapback]408916[/snapback]
No way. Fighters would still cut to make weight, only they wouldn't have the day to recover. So we'd be stuck watching weight-depleted fighters, fighting each other at less than their best. That would make for some boring, slooooow fights. John Ruiz type shit!

Well they'd definitely cut weight to get into tip top shape but they wouldn't be losing over 25 lbs for a fight..I'd want guys to lose around 10-15 lbs for a fight..Tarver cut 45 lbs to fight Hopkins..So you want guys to gain the 10-20 lbs over night to fight someone who might only gain 5??I think it's kinda bogus even though I think skill should be able to over come the extra weight advantage but some guys don't have the skill to do that..I remember Clottey coming in as basically a light heavyweight for a WW fight..I think if only had 10-20 lbs to lose they would have more time to work on the actual fight and not worrying about losing weight the whole time..We've already seen plenty of guys come in depleted and they have the one day to recover..So that's not a legitmate excuse I think..They can always lose more weight than the limit and then eat the day before the fight but come in on weight..
Spyder
That's the point though. If we already have fighters coming into the ring weightdrained after a day of rest, why would we want to INCREASE that?

You can't stop fighters from cutting weight. If fighters are not able to effectively compete in a weightclass, then they can either move up or down to one that suits them better.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(Spyder @ Nov 1 2008, 01:28 PM) [snapback]408919[/snapback]
That's the point though. If we already have fighters coming into the ring weightdrained after a day of rest, why would we want to INCREASE that?

You can't stop fighters from cutting weight. If fighters are not able to effectively compete in a weightclass, then they can either move up or down to one that suits them better.

They shouldn't fight then..The old schoolers did it and amateurs do it..What American fighters need to do is stop being lazy then we might have a American heavyweight champ..Mexicans are probably the least lazy fighters these days except for Chris Arreola(he almost shouldn't be called mexican for that reason)..That is just a generalization though,it doesn't speak for all fighters..Kostya Tszyu is fighter I know a lot about his training and there are only a hand full of guys who could train like he did(today)..

Guys should also lay off the weights..I actually was big into heavy lifting before but all it did was slow me down and make me tired quicker..A boxer's muscles need to be loose and long not short and tight..I didn't learn that for awhile..You'd think you'd get more power from lifting but not at all..George Foreman,Archie Moore,Joe Frazier,and all those guys never lifted weights and they hit harder than these guys today and they weighed less back then too..My new trainer was trained by Tony Zale and trained with guys like MM Hagler,Joe Frazier,Carmen Basilio,and a few other guys..Maybe it's just my opinion but I think the old school training methods are better than todays(I know a lot of other trainers that feel the same way)..Opinion,maybe..Fact,maybe..The new technology and everything is helpful like we discussed in a older thread but the actually training/conditioning back then was better..How can ya disagree though,today's fighters have big problems going 12,very few would be able to do 15..
anthonyaccurate
Am I high? Wasn't cal-bhop @ 175? And didn't it include the ring lt hvywght belt?
Anyway, I'd rather see winky-bhop at 170, or pavlik-bhop at 170 than winky vs whoever
The hell he's fighting next at middleweight or pavlik vs lockett or rubio....
My point is I'd rather see the best fight regardless if it's at a traditional weight limit or
a number both fighters agree with, than mandatories against scrubs at the traditional weight
Limit.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(anthonyaccurate @ Nov 1 2008, 04:24 PM) [snapback]408930[/snapback]
Am I high? Wasn't cal-bhop @ 175? And didn't it include the ring lt hvywght belt?
Anyway, I'd rather see winky-bhop at 170, or pavlik-bhop at 170 than winky vs whoever
The hell he's fighting next at middleweight or pavlik vs lockett or rubio....
My point is I'd rather see the best fight regardless if it's at a traditional weight limit or
a number both fighters agree with, than mandatories against scrubs at the traditional weight
Limit.

I too remember B-Hop and Cal. being at 175..
Fitz
QUOTE(Spyder @ Nov 2 2008, 04:59 AM) [snapback]408916[/snapback]
No way. Fighters would still cut to make weight, only they wouldn't have the day to recover. So we'd be stuck watching weight-depleted fighters, fighting each other at less than their best. That would make for some boring, slooooow fights. John Ruiz type shit!


I don't think we would see fighters dehydrating to make weight if they had the same day weigh ins. Not to the extent we are seeing anyways.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(Fitz @ Nov 1 2008, 06:42 PM) [snapback]408937[/snapback]
I don't think we would see fighters dehydrating to make weight if they had the same day weigh ins. Not to the extent we are seeing anyways.

I think they'd be a lot more smart about it..I mean it is the day of the fight soo they might just decide to start camp alittle earlier if weight is such a issue which we all would hope it wouldn't be..I really think things would get better for boxing if the decided to do this..
rusty_trombone
QUOTE(JonnyBlaze @ Nov 1 2008, 03:34 PM) [snapback]408923[/snapback]
They shouldn't fight then..The old schoolers did it and amateurs do it..What American fighters need to do is stop being lazy then we might have a American heavyweight champ..Mexicans are probably the least lazy fighters these days except for Chris Arreola(he almost shouldn't be called mexican for that reason)..That is just a generalization though,it doesn't speak for all fighters..Kostya Tszyu is fighter I know a lot about his training and there are only a hand full of guys who could train like he did(today)..

Are you forgetting Jose Luis Castillo? Fatnando Vargas? His buddy Panchito Bojado?
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