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Jack 1000
I put Hopkins on top. Jones' win over Ruiz was way over-rated. (It was ONLY Ruiz) perhaps one of the worst, most boring "champions: in the history of the sport. But Roy's supporters cling to that victory like he just beat Ali, Louis, and Sugar Ray Robinson all in the same night.........NOT!

In terms of athletic ability and capability, Roy Jones has the most physically in shape conditioning of any fighter since the days of a prime Leonard. It was all there. Not only the agility in the ring, but the arrogance as well.

However, Roy's downfall was refusing to fight big punchers in his prime because he was paranoid of getting hurt. Roy would be damn sure to have 60% or more of the attributes going his way with a strong emphasis on not getting hurt, and getting the most money or there would be no fight. Roy would also have a tendency to wait until a great former champion was well past his prime so that he could look good against him. (Virgil Hill, Mike McCallum) God forbid that Roy would have faced a Chris Eubank, Nigel Benn, Michael Watson, Julian Jackson, Gerald McClellan in his prime who would actually have the balls to hit Roy and see how he liked it. Roy always avoided Daris Michalchseki as well. Truth is, we will never know the prime Roy Jones against a banger who could hurt him because Roy avoided heavy punchers like the plague.

However, kudos to Jones for sticking it out while getting banged up last night in the process. He did not quit, got hurt, and showed heart. What's sad is that we did not see this type of courage from Roy earlier in his career. Now, Roy's ego is so inflated that he misses the competitiveness of the Ring so he is able to take some risks. The problem is, you're supposed to do that going through your career, not wait till your curtain call to take shots like that.

Hopkins would still bitch about the money as reasons for not taking fights. But unlike Jones, Hopkins would NEVER refuse to take a fight for fear of getting hurt. He loved mixing it up, and USED the skills he had as a fighter. Jones may have had more athletic agility than Hopkins, but because of Roy's fear of getting hurt, and taking on opposition that was not as strong as it could have been, you don't hear boxing people accusing Bernard of ducking guys. Roy still has that stigma of ducking guys that could have hurt him with a big punch in his prime and that will haunt his quest for greatness, forever.

Jack
Method
Hopkins, without a doubt.

Better fighter. Better resume. Fought all comers.

I could care less about the heavyweight trinket from from John Ruiz.

I guess I could further explain, but I really don't think it needs further explanation.
STEVENSKI
Hopkins IMO. Dominated a division for years & when finally "beaten" (yes I scored both Taylor fights for Taylor but can see how people scored it for X) he stepped up to light heavy & became champion up there.

Realistically you could put Calzaghe above both due to the fact that he was a two division undisputed champion who is undefeated. I would not but you certainly could.
Lil-lightsout
Wow, good question. There so many ways of looking at it and analyzing it. As far as who was the better fighter at each's best, Roy definately beats Bernard. No one could touch Roy at his best IMO. But Roy relied on too much of his natural athletic abilities, where Bernard mastered every facet of fighting, which is why he is still around and is amazing. Bernard's mental toughness and desire blows Jones away also. Roy and Bernard have both accomplished so much in there careers. Off the top of my head with out doing some real research, I think i would have to rate Bernards accomplishments higher. His longevity is this sport is ridiculous.
KookedKrack
Even with calslappy beating both hopkins and jones i would not rank him overall in terms of accomplishments over them and imo i dont even give him the hopkins fight. I think hopkins ranked over roy after the second brutal ko by Johnson who hopkins whooped like he stole something.
D-MARV
I think you have to rank Bernard higher by a slim Margin...

Bernard took on the better fighters and dominatedthe middleweight division for years, but you can't overlook the fact the Roy was 4 division champ who beat Bernard head to head. I rank Bernard higher but not by much maybe even by 1 slot!
BigG
Hopkins IS the greatest fighter of the era (it could be Pacquiao when its all said and done)

Hopkins "losses" to Calzgahe and Taylor were very close. Hopkins could have won all 3. Calzgahe didn't really land anything of significance against Hopkins and the JT fights were very tactical.
BigG
If he beats DLH which I hope he does its a wrap.
BigG
Fitz, I'm a big Morales fan and I USED to be a big Pacuqiao critic..but I have to say Pacquiao is greater than any of the other Featherweights.

I really respect Pacquiao. He looks really good whenever he fights and he doesn't slap like a bitch..

The top fighters of the era are

Jones, Hopkins, Pacquiao, Mayweather, and (ugh) Slapzaghe
BigG
Fitz, your being real unfair to Pacman if you dont give him credit for the 2nd Morales win IMO.

Morales obviously still had something left (even thought he wasnt exactly prime in that fight) and Pacquiao really ruined him even further that night and he looked like a corpse in the 3rd fight. Thats the fight Pacquiao showed improvement and used more skill to beat Morales.

He is definitely greater than Calzgahe.who's most noticable wins are a shot Roy Jones (who was previously dominated and KOd by both Glen Johnson and Tarver) and a VERY questionable win over a 43 yr old BHOPs and he got put on his ass.

Pacquiao SHOULD be rated as high as that guy at least.
STEVENSKI
Fitz seems to have a real hardon for some fighters like Pacman & Pavlik.
D-MARV
I just can't see Manny Pac as "THE" figter of our era... If that is the case then you have to include Juan Manul Marquez...

No way they compare with BHop, Mayweather, or Roy!
STEVENSKI
Fitz this is me you are talking to. You can admit irrational hatred for a fighter & I of all people will never judge you on it. Don't try & rationalise the irrational though.

Pacman is a great fighter who has ducked no man unlike another two on that list . I too was upset when he beat Morales I actually cried after it I was so upset by Morales beatdown.
BigG
I admit I teared when Morales got TKO'd...really sad night. But I accept that Pacquiao IS a monster and if he beats DLH that would be huge and he would have a strong case for fighter of the era.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE(biggeorge89 @ Nov 10 2008, 02:11 AM) [snapback]410089[/snapback]
I admit I teared when Morales got TKO'd...really sad night. But I accept that Pacquiao IS a monster and if he beats DLH that would be huge and he would have a strong case for fighter of the era.



I don't think there would be any question of this if he beats DLH.
Lil-lightsout
I am with Fitz on this, and this has nothing to do with hating on Pacman. I like Manny, I just do not think Pac deserves to be mentioned with the very best of his era. He never fought a prime Morales, and he still managed to lose to him the first fight. He never fought a prime Barrera. Both Marquez fights were razor close, if it was not for the knockdowns, he would have lost both fights. He never fought Joan Guzman. Beating ODH will give him some credit, mainly to the size difference, but we all know Oscar has seen his best days. I personally am picking Oscar to KO Manny, which would then end this debate. IMO I just think there are few other fighters whose accomplishments are greater than the Pacman's.
JonnyBlaze
So are you guys trying to say you don't think Pac-man is #1 P4P right now??
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(Fitz @ Nov 10 2008, 12:46 AM) [snapback]410123[/snapback]
Errrr no. If you read from the start, it's about him being the #1 fighter of this era.

I already read that and I'm askin if you guys think he isn't #1 P4P
BigG
Fitz, I'm curious, who are 5 fighters of this era (mid 90's to present) you'd rate over Pacman?

JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(Fitz @ Nov 10 2008, 12:52 AM) [snapback]410128[/snapback]
Well you should have asked, lol. You said "are yous trying to say", like you are trying to indirectly put words in my mouth, lol.

Yes I have Pacquiao p4p #1 right now, until Floyd has his next fight anyways.

Words do always get mixed up on here so no worries..
BigG
Yeah, Whitaker can be included...but he was on the downhill by the time Jones, Hopkins, DLH, Tito were on the rise
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(Fitz @ Nov 10 2008, 12:58 AM) [snapback]410132[/snapback]
RJJ, Hopkins, Mayweather, Holyfield, Lewis, Morales, Barrera, Trinidad, DLH.

I think 4 of them are above Pacquiao and many of the others have just as much of a claim as he does as we speak now. I can't say I rate Pacquiao over any of the names I mentioned for sure. I think you can argue with a couple, but I don't think it's clear.

I think you also have to think about Pac-man starting his career at 106 lbs and how he is 30 lbs more than his starting weight now and is going to be 40 lbs more than that when he fights DLH..It says a lot in my opinion..It's really debatable though,I'm not sure if I would/could name 5 over him but I know I def. couldn't name 10 over him..I know I don't name Trinidad over him..

I'll help ya out with the list by adding James Toney..
BigG
^ That's what I've been saying all along..but he bascially won his first title as a kid...over a pretty decent champ..he should be given credit for that.
King Eugene
QUOTE(Jack 1000 @ Nov 9 2008, 05:59 PM) [snapback]410047[/snapback]
I put Hopkins on top. Jones' win over Ruiz was way over-rated. (It was ONLY Ruiz) perhaps one of the worst, most boring "champions: in the history of the sport. But Roy's supporters cling to that victory like he just beat Ali, Louis, and Sugar Ray Robinson all in the same night.........NOT!

In terms of athletic ability and capability, Roy Jones has the most physically in shape conditioning of any fighter since the days of a prime Leonard. It was all there. Not only the agility in the ring, but the arrogance as well.

However, Roy's downfall was refusing to fight big punchers in his prime because he was paranoid of getting hurt. Roy would be damn sure to have 60% or more of the attributes going his way with a strong emphasis on not getting hurt, and getting the most money or there would be no fight. Roy would also have a tendency to wait until a great former champion was well past his prime so that he could look good against him. (Virgil Hill, Mike McCallum) God forbid that Roy would have faced a Chris Eubank, Nigel Benn, Michael Watson, Julian Jackson, Gerald McClellan in his prime who would actually have the balls to hit Roy and see how he liked it. Roy always avoided Daris Michalchseki as well. Truth is, we will never know the prime Roy Jones against a banger who could hurt him because Roy avoided heavy punchers like the plague.

However, kudos to Jones for sticking it out while getting banged up last night in the process. He did not quit, got hurt, and showed heart. What's sad is that we did not see this type of courage from Roy earlier in his career. Now, Roy's ego is so inflated that he misses the competitiveness of the Ring so he is able to take some risks. The problem is, you're supposed to do that going through your career, not wait till your curtain call to take shots like that.

Hopkins would still bitch about the money as reasons for not taking fights. But unlike Jones, Hopkins would NEVER refuse to take a fight for fear of getting hurt. He loved mixing it up, and USED the skills he had as a fighter. Jones may have had more athletic agility than Hopkins, but because of Roy's fear of getting hurt, and taking on opposition that was not as strong as it could have been, you don't hear boxing people accusing Bernard of ducking guys. Roy still has that stigma of ducking guys that could have hurt him with a big punch in his prime and that will haunt his quest for greatness, forever.

Jack

Very bias opinion but at the same time it is just an opinion.
King Eugene
I think both of these guys have had great careers. If they both ended now you would have to give it to Hopkins (as much as I hate to say it). Hopkins made his career last longer without as much punishment as Roy took. I think Roy will be brung up more in the future than BHop just cause of his flashy style, KO ability, and fan base. He had more casual fans than hardcore boxing fans just cause of his entertaining ways in the ring. BHOP reigned middle weight champ for 20 something defences. It doesn't get much better than at at all. People can say all he fought was number 1 contenders and the division wasn't that deep but we can also say the same about Roy (but I wont LOL). You still gotta give Jones credit for Ruiz, I mean now it doesn't mean much but then he was the guy that beat Holyfield once and everybody knows that aint easy. I think if Roy would have ended his career with that victory he would have went having the greatest accomplishments cause he did go from middleweight to heavyweight undeated. Say what you want but thats great. Yea Toney went from middle to heavy but not undefeated. I'll have to give it to Benard though and if there was any doubt in anybodies mind that fight this past Saturday should have sealed it up.
King Eugene
Oh and Pac Man is not one of the greatest of this Era...I'd put ODLH over him.
King Eugene
QUOTE(Fitz @ Nov 9 2008, 11:58 PM) [snapback]410132[/snapback]
RJJ, Hopkins, Mayweather, Holyfield, Lewis, Morales, Barrera, Trinidad, DLH.

I think 4 of them are above Pacquiao and many of the others have just as much of a claim as he does as we speak now. I can't say I rate Pacquiao over any of the names I mentioned for sure. I think you can argue with a couple, but I don't think it's clear.

WOW, did I just see Fitz give RJJ and Mayweather credit without some type of negativity behind it? Thats a first. LOL
D-MARV
QUOTE(JonnyBlaze @ Nov 9 2008, 11:43 PM) [snapback]410121[/snapback]
So are you guys trying to say you don't think Pac-man is #1 P4P right now??

I dont think he's number one right now!
BigG
Dmarv, who is number 1? Please don't tell me Calzaghe.....if you do tell me Calzaghe, I don't know what has gotten into you man. Beating a shot RJJ 4 years after getting dominated/KOD by Johnson and Tarver means as much as Leon Spinks beating Muhammad Ali. And his SD "win" over a 43 year old Hopkins was close.

I'll take Pacquiao's demolitions of Barrera, Morales, and a close win over a prime fighter Marquez over those accomplishments.
D-MARV
I do have Calzaghe #1... and its not because he beat Roy

I hasd Clzaghe over Pac for a while now. After he beat Kessler I put him right behind Floyd Mayweather
BigG
Calzgahe at #1...just no...worst P4P king....EVER! DMarz, your really making me sad if you call what we saw against Hopkins, Jones..THE P4P king over Pacquiao. sad.gif
D-MARV
I like Manny PAc, I really do... If he beats DLH he will be on top but for now I think the crown goes to Calzaghe His wins over Kessler and BHop are Huge!!!!

I personally think Manny Pac lost 2 fights to Juan Manuel Marquez! I think Calzghe has clealy won all of his fights.
D-MARV
QUOTE(biggeorge89 @ Nov 10 2008, 10:39 PM) [snapback]410289[/snapback]
Calzgahe at #1...just no...worst P4P king....EVER! DMarz, your really making me sad if you call what we saw against Hopkins, Jones..THE P4P king over Pacquiao. sad.gif

Im sorry dude! call it how I see it! Who will be number 1 for you if Manny Pac gets KO'd by Oscar?
Fitz
QUOTE(3King3 @ Nov 11 2008, 01:50 PM) [snapback]410274[/snapback]
WOW, did I just see Fitz give RJJ and Mayweather credit without some type of negativity behind it? Thats a first. LOL


I have always been on record and saying that RJJ was a great talent and Mayweather is one of the best fighters I have seen, but I have been critical of them on how they went about there career.
They had the talent to make people never question them, they have grey clouds over there head for a reason and it's nobody's fault but there own. I don't like them, but I admit they are good, I just wish they did things differently.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(damarvelous1 @ Nov 10 2008, 11:35 PM) [snapback]410287[/snapback]
I do have Calzaghe #1... and its not because he beat Roy

I hasd Clzaghe over Pac for a while now. After he beat Kessler I put him right behind Floyd Mayweather

I remember I used to argue who really deserved #1 between Pac-man and Calzaghe..Everyone said Pac-man of course..I think Calzaghe could be #1..The Kessler win was huge..Yet,I thought the dominating performace against David Diaz was huge too..I saw the Morales/Diaz fight in the Chi before Diaz fought Pac-man..It was really impressive stuff from Pac-man..Tough call though..I couldn't argue with you if you got Calzaghe as #1 just like I couldn't if ya had Pac-man #1..
BigG
I think if Pacquiao losses to DLH...the P4P king should be either Calzgahe-Hopkins...but I'm thinking Zags will get the nod because officially he never lost.
King Eugene
QUOTE(Fitz @ Nov 10 2008, 11:47 PM) [snapback]410309[/snapback]
I have always been on record and saying that RJJ was a great talent and Mayweather is one of the best fighters I have seen, but I have been critical of them on how they went about there career.
They had the talent to make people never question them, they have grey clouds over there head for a reason and it's nobody's fault but there own. I don't like them, but I admit they are good, I just wish they did things differently.

Awwww Fitz has a soft side for Roy and Pretty Boy. cray.gif Lmao just messing with ya dude.
The Ring Dictator
Like damarvelous1 I also put Calzaghe in front of Pacquiao.
In terms of overall accomplishment; Hopkins over Jones jr for sure.

The number one fighter of this era could easily have been Mayweather jr had he not been such a pussy. As much as I hate that annoying little f*cker, he was born to box. IMO he's the closest that I've seen to an unbeatable fighter (still taking about this era) regardless of the close fight he had against Castillo in 2002. Not easy to say this but... I hope he returns next year. With the state that boxing is in right now we desperately need him.
Jack 1000
More Thoughts on Jones and Hopkins:

When Hopkins and Jones fought, Bernard was still "young" and the fight was closer than a lot of people remember. (Something like Roy in the 116-112 range.) But Roy nuthuggers like Max Kellerman, RING MAGAZINE, probably had that fight like 118-110 for Jones or some shit. It's just too bad they never rematched when Hopkins had matured into a potentially great fighter by that time or Roy might have lost sooner. (A Hopkins rematch, "Too risky" for Jones.) Hopkins II? Damn, Roy wouldn't even fight Darius. Jones always looked for excuses to avoid guys who had the chance to hurt him with a big punch or had any kind of style to make him look like he could lose. HBO didn't help matters either with their "5 million per fight regardless of opponent." Than after that contract ended, I think that was about the time that Dibella was there and got all Pissed Off at Jones' mismatches. (Yes some were mandatories, but still....Glenn Kelly, Richard Frazier?)

They showed Roy the door and I think that was the time that Roy formed Square Ring and tried those PPV's that bombed. Than HBO brought him back a second time. They should only have done that if Roy was agreeable to fighting top guys, which he wasn't. They were milking and aahhhing his physical athletic ability more so than quality of opposition. HBO's type of practice with their fighters continues to this day. That whole network for boxing changed when Dibella left, and it hasn't been the same since.

Jack
King Eugene
QUOTE(Jack 1000 @ Nov 11 2008, 03:17 PM) [snapback]410400[/snapback]
More Thoughts on Jones and Hopkins:

When Hopkins and Jones fought, Bernard was still "young" and the fight was closer than a lot of people remember. (Something like Roy in the 116-112 range.) But Roy nuthuggers like Max Kellerman, RING MAGAZINE, probably had that fight like 118-110 for Jones or some shit. It's just too bad they never rematched when Hopkins had matured into a potentially great fighter by that time or Roy might have lost sooner. (A Hopkins rematch, "Too risky" for Jones.) Hopkins II? Damn, Roy wouldn't even fight Darius. Jones always looked for excuses to avoid guys who had the chance to hurt him with a big punch or had any kind of style to make him look like he could lose. HBO didn't help matters either with their "5 million per fight regardless of opponent." Than after that contract ended, I think that was about the time that Dibella was there and got all Pissed Off at Jones' mismatches. (Yes some were mandatories, but still....Glenn Kelly, Richard Frazier?)

They showed Roy the door and I think that was the time that Roy formed Square Ring and tried those PPV's that bombed. Than HBO brought him back a second time. They should only have done that if Roy was agreeable to fighting top guys, which he wasn't. They were milking and aahhhing his physical athletic ability more so than quality of opposition. HBO's type of practice with their fighters continues to this day. That whole network for boxing changed when Dibella left, and it hasn't been the same since.

Jack

Obviously you have a lot of hate for Roy and a lot of love for Hopkins.
Mean Mister Mustard
Jack makes some good points King. At this point you can bet Jones regrets having taken the easy way out and fought guys he knew he could beat on talent alone. Now he sees his legacy is not as strong as he thought it was and it kills him inside.

That being said, if a rematch had taken place between 1994-2002 I think Jones beats Hopkins.
King Eugene
QUOTE(Mean Mister Mustard @ Nov 11 2008, 09:43 PM) [snapback]410451[/snapback]
Jack makes some good points King. At this point you can bet Jones regrets having taken the easy way out and fought guys he knew he could beat on talent alone. Now he sees his legacy is not as strong as he thought it was and it kills him inside.

That being said, if a rematch had taken place between 1994-2002 I think Jones beats Hopkins.

Jones will be a for sure first ballot HOF'er and between those times he would have easily beaten Hopkins again. I think it would have looked like the Toney fight.
BigG
Come on King, I wouldve picked Roy... But Hopkins already fought a prime Roy and it did NOT look like the Toney fight.
King Eugene
I was talking about in a rematch between 94-02.

And I know they already fought, I have it on DVD.
BigG
Yeah, and I had Jones beating Hopkins 8-4...but Jones Jr-Toney was 12-0 with a KD
STEVENSKI
QUOTE(3King3 @ Nov 12 2008, 04:00 AM) [snapback]410474[/snapback]
I was talking about in a rematch between 94-02.

And I know they already fought, I have it on DVD.



This DVD I want to know how often do you masturbate to it & do you pop your shot early& enjoy the afterglow or do you wait until all 12 rounds are done taking a nice steady rhythm.
King Eugene
QUOTE(STEVENSKI @ Nov 11 2008, 11:07 PM) [snapback]410477[/snapback]
This DVD I want to know how often do you masturbate to it & do you pop your shot early& enjoy the afterglow or do you wait until all 12 rounds are done taking a nice steady rhythm.

LMAO...you made my back spasm from laughing so hard. I actually got all of Jones fights on DVD along with other fighters as well and I masturbate to none of them.
King Eugene
QUOTE(biggeorge89 @ Nov 11 2008, 11:06 PM) [snapback]410476[/snapback]
Yeah, and I had Jones beating Hopkins 8-4...but Jones Jr-Toney was 12-0 with a KD

Yea your right, that was a little overboard. It may not have been that one sided but it would have been a clear decision.
blackbelt2003
LMAO at Stevenski



How long back does the era go? Because obviously Roy and Bernard's primes put them in different eras to Pacquiao's. IF we're talkin, say, mid-90's to now, then I'd say the best would be (in order):


1/ Roy
2/ Hopkins
3/ Mayweather
4/ DLH
5/ Toney


Jostling for position underneath would be Tito, Pacman, Moseley, Ricardo Lopez, Morales and Barrera and probably some others. Other greats like Sweet Pea and Chavez would miss the boat by a few years.




Black
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