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salvador
Is there any obvious reason that Williams-Clottey hasn't been made? It would seem like the easiest/most natural fight to make in the division. These are two guys that nobody particularly wants to fight and I'm sure that HBO would love to air it.

Does it just come down to Goosen-Arum?

I mean, I like Verno Phillips, but Clottey would be a much more competitive fight for Williams. And I would think that Williams would love another big name ww on his resume to further establish his supremecy in the division.
Douchebag
QUOTE(salvador @ Nov 15 2008, 12:40 PM) [snapback]411127[/snapback]
Is there any obvious reason that Williams-Clottey hasn't been made? It would seem like the easiest/most natural fight to make in the division. These are two guys that nobody particularly wants to fight and I'm sure that HBO would love to air it.

Does it just come down to Goosen-Arum?

I mean, I like Verno Phillips, but Clottey would be a much more competitive fight for Williams. And I would think that Williams would love another big name ww on his resume to further establish his supremecy in the division.

Since when is Clottey a big name. Clottey=overhyped IMO.
salvador
QUOTE(The Conscience @ Nov 15 2008, 03:52 PM) [snapback]411132[/snapback]
Since when is Clottey a big name. Clottey=overhyped IMO.


Clottey would destroy every fighter Williams has ever been in with - except for Marg (though he was beating Marg comfortably before breaking his hand). And he's certainly more of a threat than than Quintana, Kolle, or Phillips.

I think that Clottey handled Judah in an even more impressive fashion than Cotto did. You could argue that Judah's spirit was permanently shattered by Cotto (and that maybe so), but Judah didn't even try to beat Clottey because he learned early on in the fight that he couldn't hurt Clottey and he got countered so frequently with such heavy shots.

I think Clottey is the most competitive fight out there right now for Williams, unless Williams is going to fight Pavlik or Winky. Because nobody with a name from 154 down will be getting in the ring with Paul anytime soon.
Douchebag
QUOTE(salvador @ Nov 15 2008, 03:08 PM) [snapback]411133[/snapback]
Clottey would destroy every fighter Williams has ever been in with - except for Marg (though he was beating Marg comfortably before breaking his hand). And he's certainly more of a threat than than Quintana, Kolle, or Phillips.

I think that Clottey handled Judah in an even more impressive fashion than Cotto did. You could argue that Judah's spirit was permanently shattered by Cotto (and that maybe so), but Judah didn't even try to beat Clottey because he learned early on in the fight that he couldn't hurt Clottey and he got countered so frequently with such heavy shots.

I think Clottey is the most competitive fight out there right now for Williams, unless Williams is going to fight Pavlik or Winky. Because nobody with a name from 154 down will be getting in the ring with Paul anytime soon.



So what Clottey is a lightheavy weight that can't KO a fucking Lightweight (Corrales). His most impressive outing was LOSING to Margarito. Yeah, maybe he is the best guy that would actually fight PW but he is getting hyped up a little too much for my taste. I will go on record and say that Cotto would expose that BAMMA.
salvador
QUOTE(The Conscience @ Nov 15 2008, 06:07 PM) [snapback]411146[/snapback]
I will go on record and say that Cotto would expose that BAMMA.


I'll go on record too by saying that Cotto will never fight Clottey. If, by some miracle, Cotto gets past Marg, Cotto's fighting DLH, Pacquiao, Hatton, or Floyd (or maybe all of them) and then retiring. Clottey is way too much risk for Cotto and Arum ain't got no interest in seeing Cotto go down again unless Arum's making a ton of money watching it happen. And Clottey ain't a money fighter.

For Clottey and Williams and Cintron, all they really have is each other at 147.
Douchebag
QUOTE(salvador @ Nov 15 2008, 05:14 PM) [snapback]411148[/snapback]
I'll go on record too by saying that Cotto will never fight Clottey. If, by some miracle, Cotto gets past Marg, Cotto's fighting DLH, Pacquiao, Hatton, or Floyd (or maybe all of them) and then retiring. Clottey is way too much risk for Cotto and Arum ain't got no interest in seeing Cotto go down again unless Arum's making a ton of money watching it happen. And Clottey ain't a money fighter.

For Clottey and Williams and Cintron, all they really have is each other at 147.


Be that as it may, Cotto would still put a woopin on Joshua. Don't let the Margarito fight fool you. The only reason Cotto couldn't win that fight is because Tony took the Body attack away. This is something that Clottey can't duplicate. Cotto would punish him for 12 rounds and win comfortable UD.
salvador
Cotto might take Clottey and he might not, but the difference is that Cotto ain't getting anywhere near Williams whereas Clottey might. And so Williams has to figure out if staying at 147 is even worth it. Because all Williams has at ww is Clottey or Cintron, and between the two, Clottey is definitely the better name.
Fitz
Yep, let the two guys that Margarito doesn't want to rematch and let them battle it out.

I agree that Clottey gets unnecessary hype. From what I have seen, he is a nice fighter but like the Conscience, I think he gets hype. I always think it's kind of ridiculous when someones best performance is a 'loss' before you start mentioning his 'wins'.
Good fighter, but so far his best win is against Judah at welter. Based on that win, he gets a hell of a lot of respect.
D-MARV
Clottey is really good! BUt not elite! He would be a tough outing for either guys. (MArgarito, Williams, and Cotto) but i dont think he wins either fight!
slap
QUOTE(salvador @ Nov 15 2008, 03:08 PM) [snapback]411133[/snapback]
Clottey would destroy every fighter Williams has ever been in with - except for Marg (though he was beating Marg comfortably before breaking his hand). And he's certainly more of a threat than than Quintana, Kolle, or Phillips.

I think that Clottey handled Judah in an even more impressive fashion than Cotto did. You could argue that Judah's spirit was permanently shattered by Cotto (and that maybe so), but Judah didn't even try to beat Clottey because he learned early on in the fight that he couldn't hurt Clottey and he got countered so frequently with such heavy shots.

I think Clottey is the most competitive fight out there right now for Williams, unless Williams is going to fight Pavlik or Winky. Because nobody with a name from 154 down will be getting in the ring with Paul anytime soon.

1st off what big names are at 154 2nd off I'm pretty sure I can beat everybody williams has fought because nobody wants 2 fight the man yeah clotty would fight him but I think paul might tko him and cintron had his chance but he turned the fight down 2 lose a 2nd fight with margarito and I don't think paul can beat winky so maybe he will have 2 just wait it out and wait until people start losing and need a money fight and he can get everyones sloppy 2nd.

salvador
Slap,

at 154 I'd say DLH, Forrest, Spinks, and Mayorga are all big names that would look good on Williams' resume. Of those guys, the only realistic shots for Williams would be Forrest or Spinks. I think it's safe to say that the only way Mayorga gets back in the ring is if it's a big money fight with Marg - a fight I'd LOVE to see. Spinks is a decent name and has proven his willingness to fight anyone, but it's just such a bad stylistic matchup for Spinks that it's hard for me to imagine that there's enough money there for him with Williams. Which leaves Forrest.

Forrest is another guy who is clearly angling for one last big fight and maybe he sees Williams as his last hurdle to getting that fight. Between Forrest and Clottey, I think that Clottey is a bigger name and he's a ww.
The Original MrFactor
Cotto aint beatin Clottey. Clottey is too durable, has fast hands and good defense. He is also an outstanding counterpuncher. Its more likely that Cotto gould get hit with alot of punches that he didnt see coming.
salvador
QUOTE(The Original MrFactor @ Nov 16 2008, 10:10 AM) [snapback]411254[/snapback]
Cotto aint beatin Clottey. Clottey is too durable, has fast hands and good defense. He is also an outstanding counterpuncher. Its more likely that Cotto gould get hit with alot of punches that he didnt see coming.

I agree with you and so does Arum, which is why Clottey-Cotto won't ever happen. Cotto's just too small.

Clottey really does need to fight Williams if he ever wants to stake his claim in the division.
Douchebag
QUOTE(salvador @ Nov 16 2008, 08:43 AM) [snapback]411252[/snapback]
Slap,

at 154 I'd say DLH, Forrest, Spinks, and Mayorga are all big names that would look good on Williams' resume. Of those guys, the only realistic shots for Williams would be Forrest or Spinks. I think it's safe to say that the only way Mayorga gets back in the ring is if it's a big money fight with Marg - a fight I'd LOVE to see. Spinks is a decent name and has proven his willingness to fight anyone, but it's just such a bad stylistic matchup for Spinks that it's hard for me to imagine that there's enough money there for him with Williams. Which leaves Forrest.

Forrest is another guy who is clearly angling for one last big fight and maybe he sees Williams as his last hurdle to getting that fight. Between Forrest and Clottey, I think that Clottey is a bigger name and he's a ww.



Clottey doesn't have the long arms that Marg has got to keep Cotto off of his body. It doesn't matter how durable you are if Cotto connects cleanly to your body, you WILL fold. Clottey is just a very big welter, but he is VERY average.
salvador
QUOTE(The Conscience @ Nov 16 2008, 10:36 AM) [snapback]411258[/snapback]
Clottey doesn't have the long arms that Marg has got to keep Cotto off of his body. It doesn't matter how durable you are if Cotto connects cleanly to your body, you WILL fold. Clottey is just a very big welter, but he is VERY average.


Cotto didn't have any trouble landing punches on Marg, he just chose to go upstairs in order to keep from getting countered. Cotto couldn't hurt Marg because Marg was so much bigger and stronger - and Clottey is at least as solid and strong as Marg.

The only way Cotto beats Clottey is if he outboxes him from the outside - someting Cotto couldn't do with Marg because of Marg's reach and stamina (100 punches a round) advantages. If Cotto tried to blow through Clottey by attacking his body all night, Cotto would get countered and beaten - probably badly.
MarzB
Good thread, i never thought about this fight. First off, Cotto is no given over Clottey and save for boxing fans can someone point to how Clottey is even remotely discussed much less overrated? If anything he's really the guy people don't want to fight.

Williams is rattling his mouth off a bit too much and I think Clottey is the one that could knock his block off. One thing Margarito did with "some" success against Williams was go to his body. I could easily see Clottey duplicating that.

dbdbdb
QUOTE(MarzB @ Nov 16 2008, 12:07 PM) [snapback]411286[/snapback]
Good thread, i never thought about this fight. First off, Cotto is no given over Clottey and save for boxing fans can someone point to how Clottey is even remotely discussed much less overrated? If anything he's really the guy people don't want to fight.

Williams is rattling his mouth off a bit too much and I think Clottey is the one that could knock his block off. One thing Margarito did with "some" success against Williams was go to his body. I could easily see Clottey duplicating that.


You make some good points MarzB .... But I would disagree with your thoughts on a Clotty\Williams fight. Clotty won't get anywhere near Williams body ... mainly because williams knows how to work that jab and Clotty will catch alot of leather trying to get to that body.

Williams will beat Clotty, Cotto and Margarito again. The guy is getting more and more confident every fight ... and even though he lost to Quintana by DECISION, he learned alot from that fight and it has carried over to every fight he's had since.

Williams is in a punishing mood & mode right now ... And many with at least one eye open can see that. That's why nobody at WW wants to sign the dotted line.
!
Douchebag
QUOTE(salvador @ Nov 16 2008, 10:37 AM) [snapback]411275[/snapback]
Cotto didn't have any trouble landing punches on Marg, he just chose to go upstairs in order to keep from getting countered. Cotto couldn't hurt Marg because Marg was so much bigger and stronger - and Clottey is at least as solid and strong as Marg.

The only way Cotto beats Clottey is if he outboxes him from the outside - someting Cotto couldn't do with Marg because of Marg's reach and stamina (100 punches a round) advantages. If Cotto tried to blow through Clottey by attacking his body all night, Cotto would get countered and beaten - probably badly.



Not true..............In the middle rounds when Cotto realized that he would actually have to fight Toney to win tried to bear down and dig to the body only to have the shots land either on Tony's elbows or called low by the ref. It was this and only this that got Tony that W and is the reason that I would favor Tony in the rematch. Clottey doesn't have that advantage over Cotto. Cotto would win, easily.
salvador
QUOTE(The Conscience @ Nov 16 2008, 01:49 PM) [snapback]411296[/snapback]
Not true..............In the middle rounds when Cotto realized that he would actually have to fight Toney to win tried to bear down and dig to the body only to have the shots land either on Tony's elbows or called low by the ref. It was this and only this that got Tony that W and is the reason that I would favor Tony in the rematch. Clottey doesn't have that advantage over Cotto. Cotto would win, easily.


Well, as usual, we disagree.

I think the only reason Cotto lost to Marg is because Marg is bigger and stronger and has a chin made of granite and throws 100 punches a round and Cotto is too small for him. It didn't matter what Cotto did (he landed more home run punches on Marg's chin than I could count), he couldn't hurt the bigger man. And Clottey is just as big and solid as Marg.

I hope that Clottey Cotto happens. They're both managed by Arum so it should be easy to make, but we both know that Arum doesn't have any interest in taking that risk with his moneymaker.

Clottey needs to fight Williams.
Fitz
QUOTE(salvador @ Nov 17 2008, 08:00 AM) [snapback]411308[/snapback]
Well, as usual, we disagree.

I think the only reason Cotto lost to Marg is because Marg is bigger and stronger and has a chin made of granite and throws 100 punches a round and Cotto is too small for him. It didn't matter what Cotto did (he landed more home run punches on Marg's chin than I could count), he couldn't hurt the bigger man. And Clottey is just as big and solid as Marg.


Cotto didn't lose to Margarito because he couldn't hurt him. He lost to him because he couldn't hurt him AND Margarito comes back with 100 punches a round and goes to the body.
Clottey doesn't win just because Cotto can't hurt him. You think very little of Cotto and think very highly of Clottey. You are acting like it's a given that Clottey beats him, when in fact it should be a close fight. I have noticed for sometime, but I don't like how you act like this is a mismatch.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(The Conscience @ Nov 15 2008, 06:07 PM) [snapback]411146[/snapback]
So what Clottey is a lightheavy weight that can't KO a fucking Lightweight (Corrales). His most impressive outing was LOSING to Margarito. Yeah, maybe he is the best guy that would actually fight PW but he is getting hyped up a little too much for my taste. I will go on record and say that Cotto would expose that BAMMA.

Corrales was always one of boxing biggest warriors in the ring..Of course you're not going to just KO him..He did get KO'd in the second Castillo fight but that was because they both had weight problems but Corrales made weight and the fact that those 2 had just been through more hell than quite possibly any 2 guys ever in one fight..Corrales always went up against guys who would come in insanely bigger than they should of been..It was bogus though..

I think Clottey is a solid fighter..He is tough,can throw a lot of punches,and has a good amount of skill..
slap
QUOTE(salvador @ Nov 16 2008, 08:43 AM) [snapback]411252[/snapback]
Slap,

at 154 I'd say DLH, Forrest, Spinks, and Mayorga are all big names that would look good on Williams' resume. Of those guys, the only realistic shots for Williams would be Forrest or Spinks. I think it's safe to say that the only way Mayorga gets back in the ring is if it's a big money fight with Marg - a fight I'd LOVE to see. Spinks is a decent name and has proven his willingness to fight anyone, but it's just such a bad stylistic matchup for Spinks that it's hard for me to imagine that there's enough money there for him with Williams. Which leaves Forrest.

Forrest is another guy who is clearly angling for one last big fight and maybe he sees Williams as his last hurdle to getting that fight. Between Forrest and Clottey, I think that Clottey is a bigger name and he's a ww.

Salvador,

1st off de la hoya is going 2 campaign at ww 4 his next couple of fight so x him out u could say mayorga but what does beating him do 4 u but get u a pay day now spinks is ok but he doesn't fight that often and I don't think he has a big enough fan base 2 be considered a named fighter the guys last fight was aired on don kings website 4 christ sakes so u have forrest the only formitable opponent then after that is up 2 160 r back 2 147
salvador
QUOTE(Fitz @ Nov 16 2008, 07:12 PM) [snapback]411315[/snapback]
Cotto didn't lose to Margarito because he couldn't hurt him. He lost to him because he couldn't hurt him AND Margarito comes back with 100 punches a round and goes to the body.
Clottey doesn't win just because Cotto can't hurt him. You think very little of Cotto and think very highly of Clottey. You are acting like it's a given that Clottey beats him, when in fact it should be a close fight. I have noticed for sometime, but I don't like how you act like this is a mismatch.


Cotto is one of my very favorite fighters (probably top 3 current fighters) because he comes forward and goes to the body and his whole gameplan is to out-tough his opponent. That's the entire reason I watch boxing.

But the thing is, he's a small ww and Clottey is a huge ww. And a small ww with Cotto's style is going to have a hell of a hard time out toughing a guy who is probably a natural mw with a great chin.

And I don't think it's a given that Clottey beats him, but I do think it's a given that Arum thinks the fight is way too risky for it to ever happen.


salvador
QUOTE(slap @ Nov 16 2008, 08:09 PM) [snapback]411344[/snapback]
Salvador,

1st off de la hoya is going 2 campaign at ww 4 his next couple of fight so x him out u could say mayorga but what does beating him do 4 u but get u a pay day now spinks is ok but he doesn't fight that often and I don't think he has a big enough fan base 2 be considered a named fighter the guys last fight was aired on don kings website 4 christ sakes so u have forrest the only formitable opponent then after that is up 2 160 r back 2 147


So if not Forrest or Clottey, what big name is going to fight Williams from 154 down?
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(salvador @ Nov 16 2008, 09:27 PM) [snapback]411357[/snapback]
Cotto is one of my very favorite fighters (probably top 3 current fighters) because he comes forward and goes to the body and his whole gameplan is to out-tough his opponent. That's the entire reason I watch boxing.

That really sucks for you..It seems like that's a pattern for all the mexicans who come on here..Your favorites are the guys who come forward and try "out-tough" guys..They do that because they don't have real skill(not Cotto though)..Years down the road,you'll hear of all your favorites being brain dead vegetables..It's a surprise they aren't already cause they sure fight like it..
D-MARV
QUOTE(salvador @ Nov 16 2008, 08:27 PM) [snapback]411357[/snapback]
Cotto is one of my very favorite fighters (probably top 3 current fighters) because he comes forward and goes to the body and his whole gameplan is to out-tough his opponent. That's the entire reason I watch boxing.

Im pretty sure cotto mixes in a little boxing skill.... Just a little tongue.gif
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(damarvelous1 @ Nov 16 2008, 11:09 PM) [snapback]411379[/snapback]
Im pretty sure cotto mixes in a little boxing skill.... Just a little tongue.gif

Cotto uses a lot of skill now..I think all these guys are going to be disappointed when they see Cotto come back and boxing like he did against Margarito instead of his old self..He looks best on his toes and movin and jabbing and mixing in some hard good combos..Boxing would be his best way to go instead of taking stupid shots like he did before..That's how he got dropped when he was comin up..
D-MARV
Hold on... Salvador is mexican and he has Cotto in his top 3?????
salvador
QUOTE(damarvelous1 @ Nov 16 2008, 11:20 PM) [snapback]411384[/snapback]
Hold on... Salvador is mexican and he has Cotto in his top 3?????


Unfortunately salvador is a white American, but he wishes he was Mexican! laugh.gif
JonnyBlaze
When I said mexicans,rayfanofrealboxing poped in my head and his other buddy who was gobbling up Margarito's nuts..
salvador
QUOTE(JonnyBlaze @ Nov 16 2008, 11:00 PM) [snapback]411375[/snapback]
That really sucks for you..It seems like that's a pattern for all the mexicans who come on here..Your favorites are the guys who come forward and try "out-tough" guys..They do that because they don't have real skill(not Cotto though)..Years down the road,you'll hear of all your favorites being brain dead vegetables..It's a surprise they aren't already cause they sure fight like it..


Guys who out-toughed opponents:

Duran
Margarito
Cotto
Pacquiao
Darchinyan
Tyson
Early Vargas
Tito
Morales
Early Barrera
Jirov
Hagler

All these guys have made boxing the most exciting sport around. Maybe some will be braindead, and if so that would be sad. But for the most part, these guys pleased the fans, got paid a huge amount, and will watch their grandkids go to private school and live great lives.
BigG
Salvador, maybe you would like to watch toughman contests.
The Original MrFactor
Nah... Sal, like me, likes to watch a fight and not a game of tag. I liken it to some guys like to watch two hand touch footbal and some guys like to watch tackle football... Both are football, one is just more physical...
D-MARV
QUOTE(salvador @ Nov 16 2008, 10:56 PM) [snapback]411392[/snapback]
Unfortunately salvador is a white American, but he wishes he was Mexican! laugh.gif

LOL...
I wouldn't mind being a mexican either. I just hope I would keep my 6'5 frame!
salvador
QUOTE(biggeorge89 @ Nov 17 2008, 12:51 AM) [snapback]411396[/snapback]
Salvador, maybe you would like to watch toughman contests.


George,

I think you would agree that every name on my list is a world class athelete. And I think you would also agree that every name on my list is more exciting than any of the most skilled boxers in the sport like Mayweather, Whitaker, Byrd, Spinks, ect.

Without aggression and risk, there's no drama. I don't care if fighter wins or loses as long as he's in there seeking GLORY! And I'd be willing to bet that as much as you'd hate to admit it, you agree with me 100%.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(salvador @ Nov 17 2008, 01:40 PM) [snapback]411452[/snapback]
George,

I think you would agree that every name on my list is a world class athelete. And I think you would also agree that every name on my list is more exciting than any of the most skilled boxers in the sport like Mayweather, Whitaker, Byrd, Spinks, ect.

Without aggression and risk, there's no drama. I don't care if fighter wins or loses as long as he's in there seeking GLORY! And I'd be willing to bet that as much as you'd hate to admit it, you agree with me 100%.

Skill impresses me more than watching 2 guys go at each other with only one gameplan which is keeping hitting him till he breaks..I'd rather watch someone like James Toney,Kostya Tszyu,Sugar Ray Robinson,Archie Moore,Roy Jones in his prime,Lennox Lewis,the Klitchkos,Willie Pep,Gene Tunney,Ali,Andre Berto,B-Hop,and guys like that who rely on skill to win and who know how to block a punch,unlike Margarito..Why would you name guys who the casual fan would consider boring??It seems like everyone who has this arguement(casual fans in my opinion) always brings up all the same 4 guys you listed..Mayweather,Byrd,Whitaker,and Spinks are 4 guys who define what boxing really is..Boxing=the art of hitting and not being hit..
D-MARV
I agree with Blaze... I take boxing skill over brawlers too. But I enjoy watching all fighters. One of my favorite fighters is James Toney! His f*cking style was unreal... He had crazy skills but would stand in front of you as well. When it comes down to All Around Skill, it doesn't get any better than James Toney!
salvador
QUOTE(JonnyBlaze @ Nov 17 2008, 04:14 PM) [snapback]411474[/snapback]
Skill impresses me more than watching 2 guys go at each other with only one gameplan which is keeping hitting him till he breaks..I'd rather watch someone like James Toney,Kostya Tszyu,Sugar Ray Robinson,Archie Moore,Roy Jones in his prime,Lennox Lewis,the Klitchkos,Willie Pep,Gene Tunney,Ali,Andre Berto,B-Hop,and guys like that who rely on skill to win and who know how to block a punch,unlike Margarito..Why would you name guys who the casual fan would consider boring??It seems like everyone who has this arguement(casual fans in my opinion) always brings up all the same 4 guys you listed..Mayweather,Byrd,Whitaker,and Spinks are 4 guys who define what boxing really is..Boxing=the art of hitting and not being hit..


I would say that the vast majority of the people you named are extremely entertaining fighters. I would also point out that Toney-Jirov was one of the most brutal slugfests in the history of the sport. And Lewis' match with Vitali was on its way to being Ali-Frazier 1 in its cavemaneque quality.

SRL's greatest fight was his first fight with Duran when he decided to slug with the slugger to make a point. And even though he lost, that (along with the Hagler fight) was probably his greatest fight in the minds of most boxing writers because he showed his heart.

I don't really have any idea where you're coming from.
Fitz
QUOTE(salvador @ Nov 18 2008, 08:37 AM) [snapback]411498[/snapback]
I don't really have any idea where you're coming from.


His point was, that to make your argument look strong, you listed the most boring boxers (well widely considered), while naming the top and most exciting fighters for your argument.
Kind of like mentioning Ali, Robinson and Leonard on why boxers are great, and listing Gatti and Ward on why fighters suck.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(salvador @ Nov 17 2008, 05:37 PM) [snapback]411498[/snapback]
I would say that the vast majority of the people you named are extremely entertaining fighters. I would also point out that Toney-Jirov was one of the most brutal slugfests in the history of the sport. And Lewis' match with Vitali was on its way to being Ali-Frazier 1 in its cavemaneque quality.

So what if they are entertaining or not..I was mentioning guys you must have forgot..You only named 4 boxers and left out the guys who more casual fans watch when wanting to watch a boxing match..The guys I named were boxers,not guys who go in hoping to KO the guy as quickly as possible or as you said "out-tough" them..You like to watch "death matches" like Rayfanofrealboxing..

Is Lewis/Klitchko the only fight you've seen of both of them??They both box normally..
salvador
QUOTE(JonnyBlaze @ Nov 17 2008, 05:50 PM) [snapback]411502[/snapback]
So what if they are entertaining or not..I was mentioning guys you must have forgot..You only named 4 boxers and left out the guys who more casual fans watch when wanting to watch a boxing match..The guys I named were boxers,not guys who go in hoping to KO the guy as quickly as possible or as you said "out-tough" them..You like to watch "death matches" like Rayfanofrealboxing..

Is Lewis/Klitchko the only fight you've seen of both of them??They both box normally..


Virtually every guy on my original list had world class skills with the exception of Marg and Jirov (though Jirov was named the outstanding boxer of the 1996 olympics). And virtually every guy on your list was willing to brawl when that was called for - and every guy on your list is remembered for his brutal moments more than any other.

The difference between amateur boxing and pro boxing is that amateur boxing is about touching the other guy with your gloves more than he touches you. In the pros it's about who inflicts more damage.

Anyway, I'm wasting too much time on you.



Lil-lightsout
QUOTE(salvador @ Nov 17 2008, 04:37 PM) [snapback]411498[/snapback]
I would say that the vast majority of the people you named are extremely entertaining fighters. I would also point out that Toney-Jirov was one of the most brutal slugfests in the history of the sport. And Lewis' match with Vitali was on its way to being Ali-Frazier 1 in its cavemaneque quality.

SRL's greatest fight was his first fight with Duran when he decided to slug with the slugger to make a point. And even though he lost, that (along with the Hagler fight) was probably his greatest fight in the minds of most boxing writers because he showed his heart.

I don't really have any idea where you're coming from.


I personally do not remember Toney-Jirov being one of the most brutal slugfests I ever seen, not from what I remember. I thought Toney just layed on the ropes most of the fight as Jirov missed frequently, as James counterpunched the crap out of him. Again, I have not seen it in a while, I just do not remember Toney taking any serious shots in this fight.

SRL's greatest fight HAS to be Hearns 1(showed tons of heart coming from behind), then Hagler(proved everyone wrong). The Duran 1 fight was definately not his greatest fight, it just showed how brave and how big his heart was. Duran 2 showed true greatness by changing it all up and making the baddest fighter at the time quit right after losing the first fight. Just my opinion.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(Lil-lightsout @ Nov 17 2008, 06:07 PM) [snapback]411508[/snapback]
I personally do not remember Toney-Jirov being one of the most brutal slugfests I ever seen, not from what I remember. I thought Toney just layed on the ropes most of the fight as Jirov missed frequently, as James counterpunched the crap out of him. Again, I have not seen it in a while, I just do not remember Toney taking any serious shots in this fight.

SRL's greatest fight HAS to be Hearns 1(showed tons of heart coming from behind), then Hagler(proved everyone wrong). The Duran 1 fight was definately not his greatest fight, it just showed how brave and how big his heart was. Duran 2 showed true greatness by changing it all up and making the baddest fighter at the time quit right after losing the first fight. Just my opinion.

Exactly right..
Big Slim Sweet
Toney-Jirov was absolutely brutal. Not a toe-to-toe slugfest in the way Corrales-Castillo or Barrera-Morlaes 1 was, but still a brutal fucking fight nonetheless. Toney beat the hell out of Jirov when all was said and done and, IMO, ruined him a bit. Still, Jirov was pounding on James' body all night long. Jirov tried to force his style on James the whole night, and didn't give an inch until the last 30 seconds. That fight was an awesome combination of skill and savagery. It even made Jim Lampley squeel "For Men Only!"
salvador
QUOTE(Lil-lightsout @ Nov 17 2008, 06:07 PM) [snapback]411508[/snapback]
I personally do not remember Toney-Jirov being one of the most brutal slugfests I ever seen, not from what I remember. I thought Toney just layed on the ropes most of the fight as Jirov missed frequently, as James counterpunched the crap out of him. Again, I have not seen it in a while, I just do not remember Toney taking any serious shots in this fight.

SRL's greatest fight HAS to be Hearns 1(showed tons of heart coming from behind), then Hagler(proved everyone wrong). The Duran 1 fight was definately not his greatest fight, it just showed how brave and how big his heart was. Duran 2 showed true greatness by changing it all up and making the baddest fighter at the time quit right after losing the first fight. Just my opinion.


Do yourself a favor and rewatch Jirov-Toney. It's worth buying. In the late rounds they were both landing huge shots at will. Lampley's call was "For Men Only!"

The reason SRL-Duran 1 was his greatest fight was becasue everyone KNEW he could outbox Duran, but SRL CHOSE to outslug him because he wanted to prove his heart. And that night brought him a whole new level of stardom even though he lost.

JonnyBlaze
Toney showed us what Mayweather/Margarito might look like except that I think Jirov did a better job against Toney than Margarito would against Floyd..Toney allowed Jirov to fight his fight by sitting on the ropes a lot..Mayweather would be in the middle of the ring for the whole night against Margarito..

I own the fight and watch it often..
salvador
Final 2 1/2 rounds of Toney Jirov:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJnedZMUfYY

Lil-lightsout
QUOTE(salvador @ Nov 17 2008, 05:20 PM) [snapback]411512[/snapback]
Do yourself a favor and rewatch Jirov-Toney. It's worth buying. In the late rounds they were both landing huge shots at will. Lampley's call was "For Men Only!"

The reason SRL-Duran 1 was his greatest fight was becasue everyone KNEW he could outbox Duran, but SRL CHOSE to outslug him because he wanted to prove his heart. And that night brought him a whole new level of stardom even though he lost.


No need to but it, I got a massively large collection of fights on tape going back to the late 80's. Just need to find it. I will watch it again, and get back to you.

Vodoo
QUOTE(Fitz @ Nov 16 2008, 06:12 PM) [snapback]411315[/snapback]
Cotto didn't lose to Margarito because he couldn't hurt him. He lost to him because he couldn't hurt him AND Margarito comes back with 100 punches a round and goes to the body.
Clottey doesn't win just because Cotto can't hurt him. You think very little of Cotto and think very highly of Clottey. You are acting like it's a given that Clottey beats him, when in fact it should be a close fight. I have noticed for sometime, but I don't like how you act like this is a mismatch.
You must be a Cotto fan. You criticize Salvador for saying that Clottey beats Cotto and rips him for not thinking it's a close match, yet you don't do the same for Conscience who is acting like Cotto is a sure thing to beat Clottey.

By the way, the real reason Cotto lost to Margarito is because Cotto isn't as durable a fighter as he should be. Even at the end of the Mosley fight you could see Cotto was starting to break down and was looking pretty similar to how he did just before he lost to Margarito. I've seen Clottey fight several times and he is a very tough and durable guy. I'm fairly certain he's more durable than Cotto and on top of that he's very difficult to hit cleanly with his arm defense. I think he'd beat Cotto. Unlike some people though, I don't pretend to know.

As for Clottey versus Williams, I'm pretty sure I once read an interview where Clottey said they offered Williams a fight and he turned it down. It doesn't surprise me either.


Vodoo
QUOTE(salvador @ Nov 16 2008, 11:15 PM) [snapback]411394[/snapback]
Guys who out-toughed opponents:

Duran
Margarito
Cotto
Pacquiao
Darchinyan
Tyson
Early Vargas
Tito
Morales
Early Barrera
Jirov
Hagler

All these guys have made boxing the most exciting sport around. Maybe some will be braindead, and if so that would be sad. But for the most part, these guys pleased the fans, got paid a huge amount, and will watch their grandkids go to private school and live great lives.
I'd add a young Sugar Shane Mosley to that list too. Back when we were watching Floyd and RJJ safety their way to decision win after decision win we had a nice balance of SSM and Tito Trinidad getting KO after KO. Those were the days.
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