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Fadetwist
Hey everyone i am a new poster who just found this awesome site and cant get enough of it.

Question is when i play boxing games or watch fights they always talk about the fighters heart??

How much does this affect the fight?

Is it a major factor?

Does the best P4P fighters in the past had this quality hence they rose so high?

Again glad i found this site!!
blackbelt2003
Heart is a major issue, but more important for fighters with certain styles. Imagine, for instance, a swarmer like Hatton without the heart for a fight.

And someone like Roy Jones or Floyd Mayweather often fight the way they do because they DON'T have the heart for a fight. That's not to say they don't have heart (I think both proved they did in tough fights), just not like a Hatton or Gatti or Holyfield.





Black
torvix2000
I'm confused! I thought Gayweather even called his family for a Pacquiao fight.

--------------------------------
December 09, 2008

FLOYD MAYWEATHER JR: NOT THINKING PACQUIAO DREAM MATCH, BOXING
By G. Leon

Sources close to former undefeated pound for pound king Floyd Mayweather Jr have informed Boxingtalk.com that despite Manny Pacquiao's sensational stoppage victory over Oscar De La Hoya, the pound for pound Picasso has zero interest in returning to the ring to face the current pound for pound king. "Floyd's not even thinking boxing right now," said our source. It should be interesting to see if the public's interest in the bout and the pocketbooks of powers that be can entice Mayweather to make this dream match a reality.

Tsk-tsk. biggrin.gif
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Method
It mattered to Corrales against Castillo.

It sure as hell mattered to Gatti and Ward.

The short of it is, Heart DOES matter, but it can only get you so far, or sometimes can be that little extra that gets you over a hump. Sometimes though, you can have all the heart in the world, and the only thing it's good for is a fighter catching a sustained beatdown.
Douchebag
I'm going to disagree with some people here and say that heart is the most important thing a fighter can have. It's basically how mentally tough a fighter is and I will go on to say that any Champion has has a good amount of heart (to various degree's of course). Heart = Dicipline and with out it a fighter can't do what he has to do to become champ. That's why I always chuckle when people question the heart of RJJ, Floyd or any of the champs that are so skilled that their heart is rarely tested in the ring. Just because it isn't put on display it doesn't mean that it isn't there.
ROLL DEEP
Heart does matter.




Normally, people say that the more 'gifted' boxers, such as Jones, Mayweather, etc don't have heart and the boxers who are more brawlers/aggression fighters, like Hatton, Gatti, Corrales, etc have tones of heart.


It's not that Jones/PBF don't have heart. Its just their fighting style seems that way. They win their fights by boxing and not getting into brawls, which people see as 'not having heart' and 'running away'. I dont think this is true. Theyre just not comfortable with going toe to toe, but not because they dont have heart, but because it goes against their skill.

I suppose it does take more courage and heart to stands toe to toe as you're in the war zone and not playing it safe...theres always a chance of getting hit with a heavy bomb where as if you're hiding behind a jab, you're a lot safer.
Method
QUOTE
Heart = Dicipline


No it doesn't.

Arturro Gatti has all the heart in the world, but he abuses the fuck out of all kinds of substances outside of the ring. A DISCIPLINED (note, you equated discipline to heart) fighter would never do that.
Box in Hand
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that anyone who steps in a ring for any type of combat has heart. If you've ever put on gloves to fight and got punched in the nose and still kept coming, you have heart. I also think that to perform at high levels such as Mayweather, Hatton, etc. you have to have not only heart but tremendous will. Mayweather fights a style that most hate because he doesn't engage a lot. It's not that he doesn't have heart, it's that he has something bigger "A Brain". The fighters who take the most damage have the shortest ring lives. Look at Corrales and Castillo, neither were the same after the first fight or these other guys.

Gatti (Too many wars)
Vargas (Too many wars)
Morales (Too many wars)

The list goes on. I think smarts is more important as your brain will pull you out of a dangerous situation that your heart can get you into.
Douchebag
QUOTE(Method @ Dec 11 2008, 09:09 AM) [snapback]415740[/snapback]
No it doesn't.

Arturro Gatti has all the heart in the world, but he abuses the fuck out of all kinds of substances outside of the ring. A DISCIPLINED (note, you equated discipline to heart) fighter would never do that.


Maybe he is not as dicipline as some of the great champs and thats why he could never achieve that elite status. But he is diciplined enough in the heat of the moment to carry on an push his body to the limit despite the beating he has taken. There are various degree's to how a fighter to applies his dicipline/heart but in it's essence they are the same thing. It's doing what you have to get the outcome that you want despite the adversity thats presented before you. IMO Gatti just has an easier time applying that dicipline in the heat of the moment when it's all on the line than when he is not not in the ring. That's the difference between good and great and thats thats I said that it's the most important aspect in a fighters game.
stillperpetuallygrooving
HEART is just a metaphor in the boxing world for courage, pride, toughness...basically anything a fighter does is not due to his natural talents, skills, or size is attributed to "heart"...the ability of having "heart" is usually attached to fighters that are are able to win fights NOT based on their aforementioned attributes, genetics, or natural or learned skill. the term was basically made up to explain how fighters like buster douglas beat mike tyson, or hatton beating tzsyu(spelling)...HOWEVER, having heart does not mean that a fighter can't be blessed with exceptional skills, natural and learned....Heart is sometimes attached to certain fighters permanently, but sometimes can be a one time thing for a particular fight...EX: "he is showing the heart of a lion for the first time in his career"...Indeed, "heart" is an abstract term, and can be defined in many ways, but the basic idea is that "heart" explains the discrepancy of natural talents, and why one man was better than an equally, or better skilled boxer during that particular fight...


"CHIN" is another one of those boxing terms that is a metaphor for a boxers ability to take punishment and continue fighting...in almost all cases a fighters "heart" and "chin" are believed to be synonymous....not always....well a better way to state that would be that a boxers heart has a positive relationship(positively correlated) with his chin, in that the more heart a boxer has the more punishment he can take, less heart, less punishment...im not saying that this is always the case, for example, sometimes a fighter will continue fighting NOT TO LOSE, but they dont look like they are fighting to win...like malignaggi against hatton, he was displaying a good chin in that he was taking punishment and continuing to "fight", HOWEVER, he showed a lack of heart because he was not doing anything to win the fight...


the fighter im sure we can all agree on that has the most "heart" and the best "chin" is antonio margarito....he has heart because he NEVER stops throwing punches, always trying to WIN the fight at all costs, AND his chin allows him to endure punishment so he can DISPLAY his heart...


hope that helps, despite being a bit convoluted...just dont think of "heart" in black and white, think of it as an abstract metaphor that can explain ANYTHING from discipline to toughness to courage to pride...Anything that keeps a boxer in a fight that is not due to his natural or learned skills and talents, OR his genetic makeup like size....
Douchebag
Some quotes from the greatest to back up my opinion.

I hated every minute of training, but I said, ''Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.''
Muhammad Ali


The fight is won or lost far away from witnesses - behind the lines, in the gym, and out there on the road, long before I dance under those lights.
Muhammad Ali

Only a man who knows what it is like to be defeated can reach down to the bottom of his soul and come up with the extra ounce of power it takes to win when the match is even.
Muhammad Ali
Mean Mister Mustard
Boxing is about balance. Having heart is essential but it doesn't mean much if you can't fight. Meanwhile you can be skillful and get through 30 or 40 fights without having to rely on heart.
streetlion1
Heart matters but you have to have the skill to go with it.
Douchebag
QUOTE(Mean Mister Mustard @ Dec 11 2008, 10:40 AM) [snapback]415748[/snapback]
Boxing is about balance. Having heart is essential but it doesn't mean much if you can't fight. Meanwhile you can be skillful and get through 30 or 40 fights without having to rely on heart.



It cuts both ways, you can have all the skill in the world but if you fold under a little bit a pressure it counts for nothing. Take Prince Nassim (not really the most skilled guy because he relied on his athletic gift but he is still a good example) this guy cracked after Barrera put in on him and he was never heard or seen again. The dude was a heartless chump and got exposed.
Mean Mister Mustard
QUOTE(The Conscience @ Dec 11 2008, 12:55 PM) [snapback]415760[/snapback]
It cuts both ways, you can have all the skill in the world but if you fold under a little bit a pressure it counts for nothing. Take Prince Nassim (not really the most skilled guy because he relied on his athletic gift but he is still a good example) this guy cracked after Barrera put in on him and he was never heard or seen again. The dude was a heartless chump and got exposed.


Right but what I was saying was that sometimes having skills can get you more success before someone finally tests your heart. Roy Jones didn't have more heart than Glen Johnson but hie got by for years without having to reely on heart.
Fadetwist
Who were the fighters that displayed the most of it?

Now we can really get a comparison.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE(Box in Hand @ Dec 11 2008, 03:03 PM) [snapback]415744[/snapback]
Vargas (Too many cheeseburgers)


That is more accurate I think.
Douchebag
QUOTE(Fadetwist @ Dec 11 2008, 05:01 PM) [snapback]415790[/snapback]
Who were the fighters that displayed the most of it?

Now we can really get a comparison.



The fighter with biggest heart that I have seen is probably Diego Corrales (RIP). He had to much heart IMO. He probably would have won the first fight with Castillo with his Jab and boxing and would still have something left for the rematch. But he was done after that first fight.
Mean Mister Mustard
QUOTE(The Conscience @ Dec 11 2008, 07:49 PM) [snapback]415816[/snapback]
The fighter with biggest heart that I have seen is probably Diego Corrales (RIP). He had to much heart IMO. He probably would have won the first fight with Castillo with his Jab and boxing and would still have something left for the rematch. But he was done after that first fight.


Yeah whenever I see their two fights back to back you have to be amazed that in their rematch he went straight at Castillo just like he had in their first fight knwing he would have to go through hell and not get lucky again. The man had courage. Too much of it I would say, he could have used his skills more although maybe we overrate his boxing ability and he was only a good slugger.
STEVENSKI
I think Chico was a very skilled boxer who had the tools to be great. He had big reach & decent speed. he was of the frame that he should have set everything up off the jab & dropped a lot of straight right hands. For a big guys he sure fought small.

No one can question his heart & desire to win. His balls may have been just too big & rather than use his skill he would fall back on his heart & brawl.

King Eugene
QUOTE(streetlion1 @ Dec 11 2008, 12:03 PM) [snapback]415755[/snapback]
Heart matters but you have to have the skill to go with it.

One of the funniest things I heard once was a story about a football player at tryouts.

Two coaches where watching a defensive lineman continously come hard off the ball but continue to get stopped and/or pancaked by the offensive lineman. He kept on and kept on trying relentlessly. One coach turned to the other and said man that kid has some heart, dont you want a guy like that on your team? The other coach replied yea he has heart but I'd rather have the guy that keeps knocking him down. LOL all heart but no skill. You gotta have it!
Fadetwist
QUOTE(3King3 @ Dec 11 2008, 10:55 PM) [snapback]415905[/snapback]
One of the funniest things I heard once was a story about a football player at tryouts.

Two coaches where watching a defensive lineman continously come hard off the ball but continue to get stopped and/or pancaked by the offensive lineman. He kept on and kept on trying relentlessly. One coach turned to the other and said man that kid has some heart, dont you want a guy like that on your team? The other coach replied yea he has heart but I'd rather have the guy that keeps knocking him down. LOL all heart but no skill. You gotta have it!



Lol kinda like that movie Rudy.
King Eugene
QUOTE(Fadetwist @ Dec 11 2008, 11:11 PM) [snapback]415909[/snapback]
Lol kinda like that movie Rudy.

LOL yea I was thinking about that too. He was sorry as hell too.
Fadetwist
I think Heart matters in a team game.

Case example:
1. Kevin Garnett - His intensity and Heart gave the Celtics a championship.

i wish i had more example for other sports, but the only thing ii follow is NBA and Boxing.
Mean Mister Mustard
QUOTE(3King3 @ Dec 11 2008, 10:55 PM) [snapback]415905[/snapback]
One of the funniest things I heard once was a story about a football player at tryouts.

Two coaches where watching a defensive lineman continously come hard off the ball but continue to get stopped and/or pancaked by the offensive lineman. He kept on and kept on trying relentlessly. One coach turned to the other and said man that kid has some heart, dont you want a guy like that on your team? The other coach replied yea he has heart but I'd rather have the guy that keeps knocking him down. LOL all heart but no skill. You gotta have it!


LOL that's a good story.

It also reminds me of a similar one but in this one heart does apply to boxing.

Cus D'amato was watching some young promising fighter sparring against an unknown kid. The prospect was constantly sending the kid to the mat, a little vicious for a sparring fight. Someone asked what he thought of the prospect and D'Amato said "Forget him, I want the kid who keeps getting up." That kid was Joe Louis.

Check that, I don't remember if it was D'Amato but cool story though.
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