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JLUVBABY
My little 16 yr. old cuzzin is staying with me for the holidays and last night he asked me to order the U.F.C 92 card... I knew the quality of the show so i ordered it... To my surprise as the fights went on my little 10 yr. old daughter joined us and was pinned to the television, and eventually made the comment "this is cool"... This is the same little girl i cant pay to watch the fights (boxing) with me so out of curiosity i asked her what did she like about this compared to boxing?... her response to me was basically, not an exact quote, "daddy these fights are fun, boxing is boring"... And while i understand she is only ten years old the quality of the fights prompted my ten year old little girl to get off her wii to come and glue herself to the television... Now, you can argue that their have been great fights that she didint see like the nmarquez/vasquez fights and the others but she was asked to set through many more fights that didint live up to the hype many more times than the few classics that they have served up to us... My point here is that U.F.C is putting on the fights "the people" want to see... For the most part their fights are not watered down happening ten years too late and things of that nature and most if not all the fights are good fights on each card... Even the up and comers are evenly matched they dont for the most part fight tomato cans... Boxing promoters really need to take a look at what is going on here cuzz last night was a complete shocker to me for my daughter to come and sit down and watch most of that fight card with us... At the end of the day MMA cant hold a stick to boxing with the fights the sport has to potentially offer but unless the promoters get on the ball it will be a long time before it becomes the glamour sport it should be RIGHT NOW.
D-MARV
Big props out to the UFC. They put on a helluva card last night. With that said, as the sport becomes more and more popular, the fighters will demand more money and cards like this won't Happen.
Snoop
UFC is basically doing what boxing used to do, and it's exactly what the last two posters said: putting on quality fights.

UFC is smart in that it constantly aires free matches that are fairly decent and their PPV are actually worth shelling out the dough. Boxing promoters have just gotten way to greedy.
King Eugene
That card was great last night. I was so glad to see Rampage knock out Silva.

On another note, the reason their cards are better cause these fighters fight cause they want to fight and the money isn't a big deal to them. They know if they keep winning the bigger the paydays they'll get. Most boxers fight souly for the money just like promoters only put together events if the money is right as well as HBO. When was the last time you heard a MMA fighter say I'll fight him if the money is right?
thehype
Actually, MMA fighters "fight" because the money IS important to them. The fact of the matter is that MMA fighters don't get paid anything close to the amount of money that boxers get paid so that keeps them hungry...and because they're hungry, they're more willing to put themselves at risk, thus making their fights much, much, MUCH more exciting. That's the reason why Dana White is unwilling to pay his fighters enormous amounts of money because he knows the importance of keeping a fighter hungry.
King Eugene
True and I do agree. I'm saying they dont make as big of a deal about the money to the public like a lot of boxers do.
thehype
QUOTE(3King3 @ Dec 28 2008, 10:08 PM) [snapback]418501[/snapback]
That card was great last night. I was so glad to see Rampage knock out Silva.


Agreed.

QUOTE(3King3 @ Dec 28 2008, 10:08 PM) [snapback]418501[/snapback]
On another note, the reason their cards are better cause these fighters fight cause they want to fight and the money isn't a big deal to them. They know if they keep winning the bigger the paydays they'll get. Most boxers fight souly for the money just like promoters only put together events if the money is right as well as HBO.


That's kind of a contradiction. If the money isn't a big deal to them, then why be concerned about winning for the sake of getting bigger paydays. The truth is, ALL fighters, whether they're boxers or mixed martial artists, fight for the money simply because that's their chosen career. The difference is that most boxers aren't as hungry as mixed martial artists because they start making 25-50 G's a fight when they start appearing on HBO whereas a guy like Matt Brown, who's already appeard on several UFC PPV undercards, is still only making 2-5 G's.

QUOTE(3King3 @ Dec 28 2008, 10:08 PM) [snapback]418501[/snapback]
When was the last time you heard a MMA fighter say I'll fight him if the money is right?


Tito Ortiz and Randy Couture come to mind. Even more recently, KJ Noons and Eddie Alvarez (you gotta start reading more of Percy's interviews...LOL). ALL fighters are concerned about the money, but again, the difference is that MMA fighters get paid very little and because the UFC basically has a monopoly over the sport, those fighters don't have much choice but to take what they can get and fight their ass off in order to please the boss in hopes of getting more money in the future.
King Eugene
QUOTE(thehype @ Dec 28 2008, 10:34 PM) [snapback]418505[/snapback]
Tito Ortiz and Randy Couture come to mind. Even more recently, KJ Noons and Eddie Alvarez (you gotta start reading more of Percy's interviews...LOL).

Your right but in most cases it doesn't stop them from fighting. Look at Winky(whose one of my favorites) hasn't fought in almost two years cause of money. Tito and Randy wanted more money but they kept fighting and didnt take huge layoffs. Randy's was long but not two years. Hell I dont know what Tito is doing now.

I read Percy's interviews but its not as many MMA's complaining about money than it is boxers.
Fitz
QUOTE(thehype @ Dec 29 2008, 02:25 PM) [snapback]418502[/snapback]
Actually, MMA fighters "fight" because the money IS important to them. The fact of the matter is that MMA fighters don't get paid anything close to the amount of money that boxers get paid so that keeps them hungry...and because they're hungry, they're more willing to put themselves at risk, thus making their fights much, much, MUCH more exciting. That's the reason why Dana White is unwilling to pay his fighters enormous amounts of money because he knows the importance of keeping a fighter hungry.


That's it in a nutshell.

I think it's a little ridiculous to constantly compare the sports, boxing is an ancient sport and MMA is relatively new still. Boxing has gone through this phase and it's now changed. I think MMA will eventually follow the same path, whether it's in 2 years or 20 years, but it will probably go along the same path.
BGv2.0
I think UFC will suffer the same exact fate Boxing has only much, MUCH faster.

You are already seeing it to a degree. You have seen entire leagues shut down. There have been numerous mismatches. AND...not all but many of the PPVs do not always live up to the hype. AND...you are seeing more and more PPVs.

All in all....I don't think the trend will cease.

It took decades for Boxing to basically ruin itself...and even though it is in a low spot right now, it is still right there.

I think because MMA developed with PPV already being established...the same will take place, only quicker.

And even though Boxing is far removed from its prime heyday.....it has indeed been here for decades. I'm not sure MMA will have that same longevity....due to the circumstances it came up in...ie..PPV.
Lil-lightsout
I have been hosting boxing PPV's since Tyson-Ruddock II. I do not get them all, but I get most of them. I used to get between 10-20 people to come over for the most part in the early to mid years. But it has been downhill since, I realize we got older and lose touch with some of my friends and boxing fans, but hardly anyone is as interested in it anymore. I still get a couple guys over to watch boxing with me, but nothing like before. So anyway, I ordered my FIRST UFC PPV Saturday might and had about 20 people over(mostly my brothers friends who love MMA). I would have had over 30 people but my one friend had a party at his house so he had over 10 guys there. I guess it is way more popular in my area.

I actually enjoyed it and all, but to me it does not come close to boxing for me. It was hilarious to hear a bunch of these guys talk shit too, they were so critical and acting as if they could have done better in there or even maybe have beaten some of them. The best was this one guy was busting on the one guy who got KO'd, and was saying he has no chin at all. I wanted to say have you ever been punched in the chin repeatedly? I would love to see you in there.
AussieLad
The ufc has a huge advantage over boxing and i dont see it folding anytime soon. The small fry organizations will come and go, serving as a breeding ground for new talent and it wont matter if they fold. Dana Whites monopoly is a good thing, and as we witnessed with couture, if a fighter thinks he is better and deserves more money..,.. well what other options has he got? Couture came back, and if couture cant make it as a freelancer what chance do lesser known fighters have?

UFC = Big Fish in the pond
Boxings pond is too over crowded and quite frankly, it would require a complete meltdown of all the sanctioning bodies for it to be reborn fresh. Boxing needs to die before it can be resurrected
JLUVBABY
QUOTE(damarvelous1 @ Dec 28 2008, 05:20 PM) [snapback]418488[/snapback]
Big props out to the UFC. They put on a helluva card last night. With that said, as the sport becomes more and more popular, the fighters will demand more money and cards like this won't Happen.


the ufc might have learned from boxing and wont be paying their fighters astronomical figures for less than an hour of fighting... very well could be the case plus the U.F.C seem to have their fighters a lot more in check than the free for all boxing has become...
JLUVBABY
QUOTE(thehype @ Dec 28 2008, 09:25 PM) [snapback]418502[/snapback]
Actually, MMA fighters "fight" because the money IS important to them. The fact of the matter is that MMA fighters don't get paid anything close to the amount of money that boxers get paid so that keeps them hungry...and because they're hungry, they're more willing to put themselves at risk, thus making their fights much, much, MUCH more exciting. That's the reason why Dana White is unwilling to pay his fighters enormous amounts of money because he knows the importance of keeping a fighter hungry.



that is so very true...
Mean Mister Mustard
About 9-10 years ago I read an article in Black Belt magazine comparing the rise of MMA in the U.S to boxing. Remember this was back when the UFC was still having trouble setting up shows in certain states and although the situation was getting a bit easier than in the 90's, they were still regarded as freakshows. Anyway, MMA in the U.S, like boxing, was deemd immoral by some and even though MMA was not banned like boxing was for a time, it still was struggling to become accepted. Now it is accepted more or less and you could say tha they are finally established. We basically witnessed the birth of MMA just like people did in boxing 100 years ago. Like in boxing, all that is left is the inevitable first million dollar purse. After that the bar will be raised and MMA will come to understand why boxing is in the state it is in.

I mean thik about it, these guys train hard to go in there and take knees, punches, kicks and submissions for a couple of grand. Eventually they will start demanding more. Isn't it already happening? And when that million dollar purse gets paid, probably to Fedor, every top fighter will start demanding the same.
BGv2.0
QUOTE(AussieLad @ Dec 29 2008, 04:16 AM) [snapback]418533[/snapback]
Dana Whites monopoly is a good thing, and as we witnessed with couture, if a fighter thinks he is better and deserves more money..,.. well what other options has he got? Couture came back, and if couture cant make it as a freelancer what chance do lesser known fighters have?

UFC = Big Fish in the pond
Boxings pond is too over crowded and quite frankly, it would require a complete meltdown of all the sanctioning bodies for it to be reborn fresh. Boxing needs to die before it can be resurrected


That might work out for a little while....but over time it is only going to hurt the sport as a whole. Competition is a good thing. You can look at the WWE and see how far down it has fallen without any comp. I'm not a wrestling fan at all, but I have two cousins that are into it and they pretty well keep an eye on the industry. They say that since WCW and ECW was swallowed up by WWE, the product has fallen to an all time low. If you compare that industry today to how it was in 1999 or so....there is no comparison.

pcraw
Yeah, you guys gotta start reading more of my intervews laugh.gif ! Nice plug Hype! Seriously though I agree 100% with Hype. And I don't think MMA will suffer the same fate as boxing anytime soon because fact of the matter is there are more kid's going into MMA gyms than boxing gyms right now. MMA (UFC) is open to having new talent come in ala a big upset. Boxing is so fixated on name recognition that we get so many poor decisions in boxing based on saving the big name guys (no matter how old they are). The fact that we're still watching guys like Zab Judah and Roy Jones on PPV is ridiculous, but boxing isn't breeding any new stars.

Fact is we get 10-12 Klitschko/Ibragimov's before we get 1 Vasquez/Marquez, We get about 5 Holyfield/Valuev decisions before we get one warranted upset decision and we get way too many mismatches in boxing. Boxing has gotten away from stacking undercards to and fans aren't showing up until the main events. There is only 2 ways to win in boxing, knockout or decision and we're seeing more and more big fights go to the cards because of guys unwillingness to engage.
caneman
QUOTE(pcraw @ Dec 29 2008, 02:03 PM) [snapback]418570[/snapback]
Yeah, you guys gotta start reading more of my intervews laugh.gif ! Nice plug Hype! Seriously though I agree 100% with Hype. And I don't think MMA will suffer the same fate as boxing anytime soon because fact of the matter is there are more kid's going into MMA gyms than boxing gyms right now. MMA (UFC) is open to having new talent come in ala a big upset. Boxing is so fixated on name recognition that we get so many poor decisions in boxing based on saving the big name guys (no matter how old they are). The fact that we're still watching guys like Zab Judah and Roy Jones on PPV is ridiculous, but boxing isn't breeding any new stars.

Fact is we get 10-12 Klitschko/Ibragimov's before we get 1 Vasquez/Marquez, We get about 5 Holyfield/Valuev decisions before we get one warranted upset decision and we get way too many mismatches in boxing. Boxing has gotten away from stacking undercards to and fans aren't showing up until the main events. There is only 2 ways to win in boxing, knockout or decision and we're seeing more and more big fights go to the cards because of guys unwillingness to engage.



Nice post! Back in the old days boxers fought the best to get their money & today they want their money before they even fight the best! You have guys running threw divisions & never even fighting the best & trying to fight De la Fishnets & a Ricky Hatton & think they are some big draw & better than Sugar Ray Robinson! Hey, gotta give it to them though in a way...they went around fighting the best to get their money! I'll never be a big fan though when 3-4 REAL fights is all it would take & I might think they were deserving of even being brought up in the same breath as SRR! IMO you have to take some risks before you start talking that mad crap! I must be stuck in my ways though cause I think it even hurts their own legacy. Oh well!
AussieLad
QUOTE(BGv2.0 @ Dec 29 2008, 05:07 PM) [snapback]418555[/snapback]
That might work out for a little while....but over time it is only going to hurt the sport as a whole. Competition is a good thing. You can look at the WWE and see how far down it has fallen without any comp. I'm not a wrestling fan at all, but I have two cousins that are into it and they pretty well keep an eye on the industry. They say that since WCW and ECW was swallowed up by WWE, the product has fallen to an all time low. If you compare that industry today to how it was in 1999 or so....there is no comparison.


If competition is a good thing then you must be in favour of the multiple sanctioing bodies that have worked so well for boxing? I like the all roads lead to Rome approach

Where i see the UFC being superior is how it creates new stars. It is not afraid to throw a new comer into the octagon with a name, even if it is way way down the line on the undercard. The most recent example, that Mustapha guy that Kongo was fighting. Ive seen it happen before, new guy gets thrown to the wolves, usually gets his ass kicked... but occasionally he pulls an upset. Instant name recognition. Theres none of this pad my resume, protect that unbeaten record shit. It didnt work out well for mustapha, who got a beat down, but its worked for others, eg Houston Alexander beating jardine then legionarius back to back. Houston may not be a world beater, but those fights put him on the map quickly. It works out well even for the guys that lose, they come back in the show a few months later against less stiff competition and people recognize them because they've already fought a name opponent. And if your in boring fights, dont expect to get a callback ever again, like that starnes guy that ran the whole fight. You will never see him resurface again in the ufc
BoxingStill#1
I actually have a different take on this thread.....

The statement came from a child,....which indeed is most likely what other people's thought on the two is....

"UFC is more exciting than boxing".....

I dont think its so much about the fighters,....or the quality of the card.

I think its just the type of fight,...plain and simple..

UFC and other cage fighting organazations are the closest thing to a legal school or street fight..........Kids can relate to that..

Besides, who (other then enthusiest) pays any attention to the technicality of boxing anyway?.....

AussieLad
Youve done it now, youve mentioned street fighting... your going to have fitz on here in a minute giving you grief... lol. But i agree with you, its easier for a new fan to appreciate than boxing because there is so much going on.

MMA has just as much technicality, if not much more, its just very different to boxing. While it might not be pretty to some having two guys rolling around on the ground on, a jiu jitsu match is all about tactics and subtle shifts in position. Then you factor in the tactics a striker needs to negate take downs, in order to not get into the jiu jitsu fight in the first place, the tactics a wrestler uses against a JJ fighter and vice versa... Even a JJ fighter vs another JJ fighter, i didnt think Mir vs Nog was going to be entirely a striking match, that Mir would disengage when he had Nog on the ground in preference to throw punches. There are so many options to the untrained eye it looks like a free for all, but thats far from the case
BGv2.0
QUOTE(AussieLad @ Dec 29 2008, 06:23 PM) [snapback]418597[/snapback]
If competition is a good thing then you must be in favour of the multiple sanctioing bodies that have worked so well for boxing? I like the all roads lead to Rome approach


Bad analogy.

WWE had entire other organizations competing with them.

The Sanctioning bodies have nothing but straps. It's like apples and Oranges.

It's not like WBA fighters ONLY fight WBA fighters and etc.

Other competing outfits could eventually create stars that are just as big as anything UFC has....which in turn creates more public interest and could eventually lead to extreamly huge fights between the two.....which can happen.

BUT...as long as there is only one game in town....you will get whatever it is they give you and that's that. Which may be fine now...but as somebody pointed out....eventually these guys are going to get tired of fighting for peanuts and you are going to see bigger names walk out on the monopoly.

I think the best way to show how that could happen and in turn create interesting outcomes....if the whole Marvel/Image deal of the early 90's. Artists and writers from Marvel comics were tired of Marvel not giving them the green or freedom to do their own thing.....so a slew of well known and liked guys all left at one time to form their own company...Image....which in turn brought the industry Spawn and others.

A monopoly is NEVER a good thing to any commodity. Just look how shitty and crappy Microsoft Programs have become without any real comp.

I can't see that changing here.
AussieLad
I dont think the real problem in boxing is the sanctioning bodies. Its the promoters that are the problem. They are all about the cash, and will protect their fighters from competition for as long as possible to milk money from the public, and when theyve just about reached the end of their careers, thats when they make the big fights. Look at Frank Warren. hatton had to jump up and down and threaten to leave him in order to get the tszyu fight. Warren would have been just as content to let hatton fight tomato cans in the UK and rake it the $$$. Same with calzaghe who left his run at big fights till the last minute. Then you get the promoters who wont work with each other, and too bad for the public if each has a big name fighter in the same division, that fight wont get made.

Because the UFC is so good in marketing their fighters, and creating name recognition, it doesnt really matter if big names leave the organization. There are any number of new comers willing to fill their shoes
BigG
I enjoyed UFC 92....I liked the Rampage-Silva III fight and the Griffin-Evans fight...didn't really care for the Frank Mir fight though. The heavyweight division in the UFC is crap IMO...with Lesnar and Mir
rusty_trombone
Yeah, UFC promoters are way better than boxing promoters at screwing fighters out of money. I mean, at least boxers get half, they don't get paid dick in the UFC
rusty_trombone
QUOTE(thehype @ Dec 28 2008, 10:25 PM) [snapback]418502[/snapback]
Actually, MMA fighters "fight" because the money IS important to them. The fact of the matter is that MMA fighters don't get paid anything close to the amount of money that boxers get paid so that keeps them hungry...and because they're hungry, they're more willing to put themselves at risk, thus making their fights much, much, MUCH more exciting. That's the reason why Dana White is unwilling to pay his fighters enormous amounts of money because he knows the importance of keeping a fighter hungry.

That, and he is greedy. And he knows there is a line of guys able to make exciting fights, it's amazing how many more UFC fighters there are than boxers.

The "importance of keeping a fighter hungry", that sounds like a complete line of bs to me. I could picture Dana laying that line of BS on me while looking at me with a big shit eating grin on his face. He just doesn't want to give up any more scratch than necessary, he can keep getting these guys at scale, so why pay superstar dollars. UFC guys are "athletes" without a home, probably not good enough at boxing to be boxers, not fast enough or big enough or skilled enough to play football or basketball.(if they could hit, they would definitely be playing baseball, who wouldn't, that shit is easy). soccer don't pay shit in the states. so these tough guys, that were good high school wrestlers, or the kids who went to karate class, fight in the UFC. There's alot of karate kids out there, and high school & college wrestlers. He knows he could lose a Couture, or Lidell and have another 15 of those guys waiting in the wings. I guess, by nature, there's alot of parity in the UFC.
alaganza
The UFC is great right now. The cards from top to bottom are definitely better than what we usually get for boxing

I believe it has been stated several times during this thread that it is a money thing which I do agree with.

However, I believe the winning formula for the UFC is the bonus money system. Bonuses for finishes, fight of the night, and knockout of the night.

When you do this you everyone competing against each tohter regardless of weight divisions. That, along with the lower pay days is the winning formula for the UFC.

Eventually this will run thin though. Earlier in this thread it was stated that the fighters will begin to ask for more money and that may very well be the demise of the exitement.

I think the UFC will have a harder time rebounding from a string of bad cards due to the fact that it's mainstream history doesn't run as deep as boxing.

JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(BoxingStill#1 @ Dec 29 2008, 06:34 PM) [snapback]418598[/snapback]
I actually have a different take on this thread.....

The statement came from a child,....which indeed is most likely what other people's thought on the two is....

"UFC is more exciting than boxing".....

I dont think its so much about the fighters,....or the quality of the card.

I think its just the type of fight,...plain and simple..

UFC and other cage fighting organazations are the closest thing to a legal school or street fight..........Kids can relate to that..

Besides, who (other then enthusiest) pays any attention to the technicality of boxing anyway?.....

Well I don't know any kids in school doing spin kicks or doing a arm bar in the middle of the playground..Every fight I've ever had has been dominated by fists being thrown and sometimes the other kid may of done some wimpy kicks or scratching..Hammer fists too actually..If I knew what I know now about boxing,every single kid I would of fought would of gone to the hospital..I've never lost a street fight ever..Since I started boxing I decided to no longer fight outside the ring unless I 100% have to(haven't yet)..MMA guys suck at their lil baby "strikes" and if they knew the technicalities of boxing,they would be a hell of a lot more successful..
pcraw
QUOTE(JonnyBlaze @ Dec 29 2008, 10:41 PM) [snapback]418638[/snapback]
Well I don't know any kids in school doing spin kicks or doing a arm bar in the middle of the playground..Every fight I've ever had has been dominated by fists being thrown and sometimes the other kid may of done some wimpy kicks or scratching..Hammer fists too actually..If I knew what I know now about boxing,every single kid I would of fought would of gone to the hospital..I've never lost a street fight ever..Since I started boxing I decided to no longer fight outside the ring unless I 100% have to(haven't yet)..MMA guys suck at their lil baby "strikes" and if they knew the technicalities of boxing,they would be a hell of a lot more successful..


Damn, I have to disagree with you Blaze. Baby strikes, you must be watching Brock Lesnar fights only. I've been in several street fights and I've seen my fair share as well and I've never ever watched a street fight go toe to toe without some type of grabbing or going to the ground. That's just the way it works. I think knowing how to work from the bottom is just as important as knowing how to fight with your opponent right in front of you. Not saying I would do a spinning kick or armbar in a fight, but knowing sweeps and wizors and things of that nature could only help. You can't tell me if Floyd Mayweather Jr. learned wrestling, Jiu Jitsu, grappling and had his hands still that-that's a bad thing.

I've actually seen a fight where this guy (thought he was a boxer) bumrushed this dude and the guy went to his back immediately. In a street fight the natural reaction is to jump on the guy. He got put to sleep with a triangle choke because he didnt know what the hell was going on, so I don't think it hurts to be versed in both. You need to watch, Rashad Evans, Fedor Emelianko, Rampage Jackson, Shogun Rua, Thiago Alves, Jens Pulver, Robbie Lawler and on and on to see MMA guys with technical skills. Half of these MMA guys either watch or come from a boxing background. Freddie Roach currently trains, Sokoudjou, Andrei Arlovski, BJ Penn and Anderson Silva in their standup.
King Eugene
QUOTE(pcraw @ Dec 29 2008, 10:57 PM) [snapback]418648[/snapback]
Damn, I have to disagree with you Blaze. Baby strikes, you must be watching Brock Lesnar fights only. I've been in several street fights and I've seen my fair share as well and I've never ever watched a street fight go toe to toe without some type of grabbing or going to the ground. That's just the way it works. I think knowing how to work from the bottom is just as important as knowing how to fight with your opponent right in front of you. Not saying I would do a spinning kick or armbar in a fight, but knowing sweeps and wizors and things of that nature could only help. You can't tell me if Floyd Mayweather Jr. learned wrestling, Jiu Jitsu, grappling and had his hands still that-that's a bad thing.

I've actually seen a fight where this guy (thought he was a boxer) bumrushed this dude and the guy went to his back immediately. In a street fight the natural reaction is to jump on the guy. He got put to sleep with a triangle choke because he didnt know what the hell was going on, so I don't think it hurts to be versed in both. You need to watch, Rashad Evans, Fedor Emelianko, Rampage Jackson, Shogun Rua, Thiago Alves, Jens Pulver, Robbie Lawler and on and on to see MMA guys with technical skills. Half of these MMA guys either watch or come from a boxing background. Freddie Roach currently trains, Sokoudjou, Andrei Arlovski, BJ Penn and Anderson Silva in their standup.

Nice!

And the way those guys train is no joke. People can say whatever they want about their strikes but I be damn if your going to tell me them shits dont hurt with those small ass gloves on.
Spyder
The only street fights that I've ever seen go to the ground involved a mount, and some dude getting hit with a flurry of shots.

All others ended with a glorious KO! You can't substitute knowing how to throw a punch with any other skill...period.

One of my college buddies was a state champion wrestler, and he told me that a wrestlers biggest fear was getting into a fight with a boxer...and this guy LOVES to fight.
AussieLad
I love the street fighting argument... LOL

I reckon its fairly rare these days to see a street brawl with 2 guys going toe to toe just throwing punches. At the very least there is always a bit of grappling. The only fights ive seen where its just been punching have been where one or both guys are inebriated, and its usually the first punch thrown that lands and sends the other guy to sleep because he was too drunk to even blink let alone move his head out of the way

Personally i think its very simple. In a street fight, no rules, right. Ok, a boxer in a street fight is allowed to wrestle, throw kicks, knees, elbows, etc... theres nothing stopping him from using those tools so its even steven... right? Well let me ask you this. Who wins in a pure punching fight, your average dude on the street with no experience, or a trained boxer. In pure punching ability, the trained boxer should win. Punches are a boxers bread and butter. So it stands to reason that in a street fight where there are no rules, the guy that has been trained to wrestle, choke, kick, knee, elbow, stomp has a better advantage than the guy that just throws punches. The guy with the most weapons win

Of course when someone picks up a bar, or smashes a bottle in your face, well thats a different story black eye.gif
Spyder
Exactly.

It's been a few years since I've seen a good street fight, so maybe kids these days are pulling guard. dntknw.gif
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(pcraw @ Dec 29 2008, 11:57 PM) [snapback]418648[/snapback]
Damn, I have to disagree with you Blaze. Baby strikes, you must be watching Brock Lesnar fights only. I've been in several street fights and I've seen my fair share as well and I've never ever watched a street fight go toe to toe without some type of grabbing or going to the ground. That's just the way it works. I think knowing how to work from the bottom is just as important as knowing how to fight with your opponent right in front of you. Not saying I would do a spinning kick or armbar in a fight, but knowing sweeps and wizors and things of that nature could only help. You can't tell me if Floyd Mayweather Jr. learned wrestling, Jiu Jitsu, grappling and had his hands still that-that's a bad thing.

I've actually seen a fight where this guy (thought he was a boxer) bumrushed this dude and the guy went to his back immediately. In a street fight the natural reaction is to jump on the guy. He got put to sleep with a triangle choke because he didnt know what the hell was going on, so I don't think it hurts to be versed in both. You need to watch, Rashad Evans, Fedor Emelianko, Rampage Jackson, Shogun Rua, Thiago Alves, Jens Pulver, Robbie Lawler and on and on to see MMA guys with technical skills. Half of these MMA guys either watch or come from a boxing background. Freddie Roach currently trains, Sokoudjou, Andrei Arlovski, BJ Penn and Anderson Silva in their standup.

They have small gloves on..Percy,you know if they knew how to throw shots like a boxer does,they'd be puttin people to sleep with one shot every time..Sleeper holds are different in a fight than a arm bar..Andrei Arlovski got fucked up by my boxing trainer who is 130 lbs with 1 body shot..He threw it really weird though,he landed the shot with his index finger knuckle,not his middle knuckle..Fres Oquendo whoop Andrei in sparring too,it's on Youtube..I know what you're saying and I agree it's good to know other things..Boxing isn't all I know,I know hapkido too..I like throwing bows but not in a boxing ring..
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(3King3 @ Dec 30 2008, 12:07 AM) [snapback]418652[/snapback]
Nice!

And the way those guys train is no joke. People can say whatever they want about their strikes but I be damn if your going to tell me them shits dont hurt with those small ass gloves on.

Yeah,they have small gloves on..If a boxer had those on,people would be dying..
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(Spyder @ Dec 30 2008, 12:14 AM) [snapback]418659[/snapback]
The only street fights that I've ever seen go to the ground involved a mount, and some dude getting hit with a flurry of shots.

All others ended with a glorious KO! You can't substitute knowing how to throw a punch with any other skill...period.

One of my college buddies was a state champion wrestler, and he told me that a wrestlers biggest fear was getting into a fight with a boxer...and this guy LOVES to fight.

clapping.gif

No one has said it better yet than you Spyder..

I think everyone forgets how much is involved with throwing a REAL punch..My friend who just started to learn some boxing and my gf will tell you that it is some of the hardest shit to do since you have to do multiple things at once to get the perfect punch..Everyone thinks they know how to punch but if you get into a boxing gym like I know a lot of you have,it's a whole different world..Shit,I never thought I'd get to where I am now..
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(Fitz @ Dec 30 2008, 03:16 AM) [snapback]418691[/snapback]
Pretty big gloves.


You must of forgot Max Baer killing people with 8 ounce gloves on..Think if he had 4 ouncers on,how many would he of killed then??There have been more deaths in boxing than any other sport..

Did ya not know that speed=more power??Speed is enhanced with lighter gloves..
AussieLad
its harder to defend yourself with smaller gloves, less surface area to form the guard.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(AussieLad @ Dec 30 2008, 04:02 AM) [snapback]418695[/snapback]
its harder to defend yourself with smaller gloves, less surface area to form the guard.

That's why head movement is so important..
Jack 1000
QUOTE(thehype @ Dec 28 2008, 09:25 PM) [snapback]418502[/snapback]
Actually, MMA fighters "fight" because the money IS important to them. The fact of the matter is that MMA fighters don't get paid anything close to the amount of money that boxers get paid so that keeps them hungry...and because they're hungry, they're more willing to put themselves at risk, thus making their fights much, much, MUCH more exciting. That's the reason why Dana White is unwilling to pay his fighters enormous amounts of money because he knows the importance of keeping a fighter hungry.


Cosign!

In fact, the amount of money that these athletes are making in almost all sports is just sickening. They can get millions and millions of dollars a year with no effort. Several people that I know have even stopped following sports because they see these guys as "Overpaid spoiled assholes." And this came from several people that used to watch everything: football, baseball, basketball, and boxing. Several have even dropped their optional cable/dish sports packages, because they have grown tired of footing the bills to support these athletes who are getting such inflated money that the common fan can't even relate to them anymore. The corporate greed and today's harsh economy is making people more resentful of these athletes than in the past. They simply don't deserve anywhere near the money that they are making.

MMA doesn't have the type of greedy athlete structure that has plagued other sports, especially boxing. Like Ben said, these guys are fighting because they care about putting on a good show, the cards are generally more evenly matched, and people nowadays would rather see quick-burst KO's and submissions that can happen in seconds to minutes, rather than take a chance on watching 10-12 rounds of clutching, grabbing, and showboating.

Having said that, I never really got into MMA because I was raised and researched the boxing industry for 35 years. You get used to a style and sport that you can call your own. MMA just feels strange and different to me. I would take a great classic fight and the excitement that it brings over the best MMA any day. I wonder what MMA "enthusiasts" would say if they saw Marquez-Vasquez (any of the fights), Adamek-Cunningham, Cotto-Margarito, Holt-Torres or Froch-Pascal? If those barn-burners were made available on free TV or basic cable on a regular basis, the boxing industry would be thriving. But what do they get instead? HBO's bullshit looking for a name fighter with whom they have a long term contract instead of just buying the best fights. When they serve up shit like the over-rated, over-hyped, and overpriced Mayweather-Delahoya which turned out to be a waltz. what is the casual fan supposed to think?

Today's execs don't know how to market action bouts to the mainstream public. They don't understand how important an under-card can be as an important precursor to the main event. Just about every boxing under-card is fucked up by mismatches that would not pass for ESPN material. and than PPV subs have to pay $60 to watch "Dancing With The Stars" Mayweather, or ZZZZ fests like Taylor-Wright II instead of Taylor-Froch or Pavlik-Froch?

I don't think boxing is dying. It's just that the powers that be don't know the proper way to bring about exciting fights. There are too many promotional and TV monopoly conflicts that hold fighters and titles hostage. This is similar to the sad instances that rival sanctioning bodies cannot force title unifications and strip fighters more often than not for fighting unifications instead of often bullshit mandatory contenders. Match the boxing programs with quality under-cards on a fight-by fight basis with brawlers in there, and boxing can be just as good or better than MMA.

Jack
Spyder
QUOTE(JonnyBlaze @ Dec 30 2008, 02:17 AM) [snapback]418692[/snapback]
clapping.gif

No one has said it better yet than you Spyder..

I think everyone forgets how much is involved with throwing a REAL punch..My friend who just started to learn some boxing and my gf will tell you that it is some of the hardest shit to do since you have to do multiple things at once to get the perfect punch..Everyone thinks they know how to punch but if you get into a boxing gym like I know a lot of you have,it's a whole different world..Shit,I never thought I'd get to where I am now..

You know what Jon, you got the punch thing pegged. The reality of it is that these MMA guys don't have the time to dedicate to learning how to throw a punch. They have to learn grappling, kicks, defense for those...punching has become an afterthought for them. But honestly, if none of them can punch then they really don't need to learn.

It would be like a boxer practicing take down defense...yeah it may come in handy if you have a fight with John Ruiz or Ricky Hatton, but mostly that knowledge will not be needed. It just gets me when they try to downplay the effectiveness of a perfectly placed punch.
pcraw
QUOTE(JonnyBlaze @ Dec 30 2008, 03:10 AM) [snapback]418688[/snapback]
They have small gloves on..Percy,you know if they knew how to throw shots like a boxer does,they'd be puttin people to sleep with one shot every time..Sleeper holds are different in a fight than a arm bar..Andrei Arlovski got fucked up by my boxing trainer who is 130 lbs with 1 body shot..He threw it really weird though,he landed the shot with his index finger knuckle,not his middle knuckle..Fres Oquendo whoop Andrei in sparring too,it's on Youtube..I know what you're saying and I agree it's good to know other things..Boxing isn't all I know,I know hapkido too..I like throwing bows but not in a boxing ring..


I would love to know when that sparring session took place, but with that being said I'm not saying these guys can whoop a boxers ass in boxing, because they are not boxers. I bet if Oquendo would have rolled with Arlovski right after their sparring session he would have gotten tapped within 30-45 seconds because Oquendo is not a mixed martial artist. I think it says alot when a guy with the credibility of a Freddie Roach say that Arlovski could easily be the heavyweight champion of the world in boxing as he said BJ Penn has one of the greatest jabs he's ever seen. Like I said I don't know what fights you guys are watching, but as for me I've seen some great knockouts in MMA (Great 1 punch knockouts). To say MMA fighters don't care or have the time to care about their boxing is absorb considering most of them have boxing coaches. You have to know the facts before you make statements like that. Trevor Wittman, the guy that trains Verno Phillips is also the boxing coach for Georges St. Pierre, Shane Carwin, Nate Marquardt, Roger Huerta and other MMA fighters. Howard Davis Jr. the former Olympic gold medalist is the primary boxing coach at American Top Team, JZ Calvacante, Thiago Alves, Cole Miller, Ben Saunders, Din Thomas the list goes on and on. So I dont think Wittman, Roach and Davis is teaching them how to throw punches like an MMA fighter (if that's even a term) their teaching them to throw shots like a boxer. A triangle choke is not a sleeper hold it's an inverted armbar. Instead of having the arm in you have the neck in between your legs.
BoxingStill#1
QUOTE(JonnyBlaze @ Dec 30 2008, 02:17 AM) [snapback]418692[/snapback]
clapping.gif

No one has said it better yet than you Spyder..

I think everyone forgets how much is involved with throwing a REAL punch..My friend who just started to learn some boxing and my gf will tell you that it is some of the hardest shit to do since you have to do multiple things at once to get the perfect punch..Everyone thinks they know how to punch but if you get into a boxing gym like I know a lot of you have,it's a whole different world..Shit,I never thought I'd get to where I am now..



This thread can proberbly go on for ages....

Im with you there.......there is a noticable difference between an MMA jab, and and boxing jab...

MMA jabs, for instance, dont seem to be thrown with as much conviction, perhaps because it can be countered with more than just a punch, but with a kick, elbow ect.....

But my ultimate point was the TYPE of fighting....MMA is more exciting to watch because its the CLOSEST thing to a street fight......

Fitz I wasnt comparing the two sports to a wild street fight.......I was comparing in the sense of rules...

In my opinion, boxing is the more complete, and skillfull sport because it has more rules to abide, the gloves, the round duration and count, less opportunities to rest....my list goes on.....BUT...

My only point was about how MMA is more exciting to watch......which is where this thread began
pcraw
QUOTE(JonnyBlaze @ Dec 30 2008, 03:12 AM) [snapback]418689[/snapback]
Yeah,they have small gloves on..If a boxer had those on,people would be dying..


People would be dying? Look it's a reason why more boxers have brain damage than MMA fighters. To be hit repeatedly with ,12, 14, even 16 oz. gloves is more damaging than being hit with 4 oz. gloves. Would you rather be hit in the head with a branch off of a tree or a 2 x 4? Smaller gloves does not mean more hasty results. Boxing gloves are very heavy and the effect of those heavy gloves shows every time you see an interview with Iran Barkley, Thomas Hearns etc...and it's not because boxers know how to place a better punch. It's because of the effect those guys brains have taken from those heavy gloves. In a nutshell MMA fighters don't want to be boxers and boxers don't want to be MMA fighters, that's why their in their respective fields.
pcraw
QUOTE(BoxingStill#1 @ Dec 30 2008, 12:08 PM) [snapback]418730[/snapback]
This thread can proberbly go on for ages....

Im with you there.......there is a noticable difference between an MMA jab, and and boxing jab...

MMA jabs, for instance, dont seem to be thrown with as much conviction, perhaps because it can be countered with more than just a punch, but with a kick, elbow ect.....

But my ultimate point was the TYPE of fighting....MMA is more exciting to watch because its the CLOSEST thing to a street fight......

Fitz I wasnt comparing the two sports to a wild street fight.......I was comparing in the sense of rules...

In my opinion, boxing is the more complete, and skillfull sport because it has more rules to abide, the gloves, the round duration and count, less opportunities to rest....my list goes on.....BUT...

My only point was about how MMA is more exciting to watch......which is where this thread began


I hear you boxing, but anytime you have U.F.C. vs. Boxing in the headline die hard boxing fans will bring up the different skill set. I forgot who said nothing can replace a perfectly thrown punch. You may want to ask Cung Le about that. I think he would say a perfectly thrown kick. As for the guy who's buddy is a wrestler and hates to face boxers, every style has a counter attack that they don't match up well against. Wrestlers hate boxers, boxers hate Muay Thai clinch fighters and Jiu Jitsu practitioners and Jiu Jitsu guys hate guys with great ground and pound and on and on and on!
BGv2.0
QUOTE(BoxingStill#1 @ Dec 30 2008, 12:08 PM) [snapback]418730[/snapback]
This thread can proberbly go on for ages....

Im with you there.......there is a noticable difference between an MMA jab, and and boxing jab...

MMA jabs, for instance, dont seem to be thrown with as much conviction, perhaps because it can be countered with more than just a punch, but with a kick, elbow ect.....

But my ultimate point was the TYPE of fighting....MMA is more exciting to watch because its the CLOSEST thing to a street fight......

Fitz I wasnt comparing the two sports to a wild street fight.......I was comparing in the sense of rules...

In my opinion, boxing is the more complete, and skillfull sport because it has more rules to abide, the gloves, the round duration and count, less opportunities to rest....my list goes on.....BUT...

My only point was about how MMA is more exciting to watch......which is where this thread began


Exciting to some maybe. That aspect you speak of is what turns me off from MMA. I prefer my combat sports to have more rules....which is why for me it is Boxing hands down.

I also think that real boxers coming up through state torneys and golden glove comp as well as AMAs...cultivates an actual bred commodity.

And while there is an aspect to that in MMA with generations like the Shamrocks and Gracies......SOOOO many of today's MMA fighters look like they were turned out cookie cutter style. It's like there are huge warehouses that just turn out "MMA fighters". When the sport itself grew over night.....it was as if all of the sudden you had a ton of martial artists walking the streets..lol

I still say in regard to that aspect.....MMA is the Pro wrestling of today....instead of kids going to "wrestling school" they are now going to "MMA school". The only difference being that the fighting in MMA is real.


rusty_trombone
QUOTE(BoxingStill#1 @ Dec 30 2008, 11:08 AM) [snapback]418730[/snapback]
This thread can proberbly go on for ages....

Im with you there.......there is a noticable difference between an MMA jab, and and boxing jab...

MMA jabs, for instance, dont seem to be thrown with as much conviction, perhaps because it can be countered with more than just a punch, but with a kick, elbow ect.....

But my ultimate point was the TYPE of fighting....MMA is more exciting to watch because its the CLOSEST thing to a street fight......

Fitz I wasnt comparing the two sports to a wild street fight.......I was comparing in the sense of rules...

In my opinion, boxing is the more complete, and skillfull sport because it has more rules to abide, the gloves, the round duration and count, less opportunities to rest....my list goes on.....BUT...

My only point was about how MMA is more exciting to watch......which is where this thread began

What I don't understand is, peoples desire to see a street fight? Shit, go outside at night after bars close and you'll see one. Why would you pay all that money to see a street fight, when they are free on the streets and usually alot funnier?
rusty_trombone
QUOTE(BGv2.0 @ Dec 30 2008, 11:34 AM) [snapback]418733[/snapback]
And while there is an aspect to that in MMA with generations like the Shamrocks and Gracies......SOOOO many of today's MMA fighters look like they were turned out cookie cutter style. It's like there are huge warehouses that just turn out "MMA fighters". When the sport itself grew over night.....it was as if all of the sudden you had a ton of martial artists walking the streets..lol

I still say in regard to that aspect.....MMA is the Pro wrestling of today....instead of kids going to "wrestling school" they are now going to "MMA school". The only difference being that the fighting in MMA is real.

I completely agree.
BoxingStill#1
QUOTE(rusty_trombone @ Dec 30 2008, 01:12 PM) [snapback]418743[/snapback]
I completely agree.



RUSTY....I think its time you created perhaps the largest Hate wagon of ALL TIME....


THE MMA HATE WAGON...

THE BOXING HATE WAGON

LOL it will be like segregation up in this bitch!!!!!!

Spyder
Having a boxing coach doesn't make the day longer...

As everyone on this site, and anyone that has seen 24/7 knows, a boxer's day is a carefully scheduled routine. Wake up and run at 5, eat, rest, start work in the gym, break for lunch, rest, do some sparring, et cetera...their day is scripted, just as an MMA fighter should have theirs. Only a boxer will work on effective punches and defense, whilst the MMAer still needs to work his ground game, kicking, submissions, defense for these.

A boxer doesn't need to waste his time learning that shit, so he can focus all of his energy on punches. Freddie Roach can do a lot of things, but he can't add hours to the day.

But Percy, you're wrong about MMAers not wanting to be boxers. Just ask Anderson Silva...actually, that would be really interesting the next time you interview him. Ask him if he would rather be trading punches for millions, or rolling around for thousands.
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