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Yucayeke
Soloboxeo.com has an article talking about the Evander - Valuev decision.

Translated it via Firefox, may have some grammatical errors but you will get the gist.
.
The World Boxing Association (AMB) has announced that it will investigate the last world championship win was the heavy at the points 116-112, 115-114 and 114-114 on the Russian Valuev U.S. Holyfield after heavy criticism by the public in the evening for the media world of boxing.

"As the World Boxing Association always cares and respects the views of the fans and the media, the Committee has ordered a panel of judges reviewed the tape of the fight between Valuev and Holyfield," the organization said in a statement but did not specify a date for the results of the investigation and has indicated that it only be known "in the coming weeks."

The outcome of the investigation concluded that there was an error in the verdict could lead to a new fighter, who would have thought that after this fight Holyfield again so have another opportunity to be the oldest champion in history..


BTW - HAPPY NEW YEAR 2009!!!
Jack 1000
QUOTE(Yucayeke @ Jan 1 2009, 10:56 AM) [snapback]418923[/snapback]
Soloboxeo.com has an article talking about the Evander - Valuev decision.

Translated it via Firefox, may have some grammatical errors but you will get the gist.
.
The World Boxing Association (AMB) has announced that it will investigate the last world championship win was the heavy at the points 116-112, 115-114 and 114-114 on the Russian Valuev U.S. Holyfield after heavy criticism by the public in the evening for the media world of boxing.

"As the World Boxing Association always cares and respects the views of the fans and the media, the Committee has ordered a panel of judges reviewed the tape of the fight between Valuev and Holyfield," the organization said in a statement but did not specify a date for the results of the investigation and has indicated that it only be known "in the coming weeks."

The outcome of the investigation concluded that there was an error in the verdict could lead to a new fighter, who would have thought that after this fight Holyfield again so have another opportunity to be the oldest champion in history..


BTW - HAPPY NEW YEAR 2009!!!



I have heard about this. However, note that the last paragraph is not gramatically correct. No evidence of error has been reported. Therefore the statement should read "IF THE OUTCOME OF THE INVESTIGATION CONCLUDES THAT THERE WAS AN ERROR IN THE VERDICT, THIS COULD LEAD TO A REMATCH AND ANOTHER OPPORTUNITY FOR HOLYFIELD TO BECOME THE OLDEST CHAMPION IN HISTORY."

Jack
Byrd Man
QUOTE
The sanctioning organisation has stated that it has ordered a panel of judges to study the video of the fight. The WBA has insisted it "always cares about and respects the fans' and the media's opinion."

The 46-year-old Holyfield was attempting to become the oldest heavyweight to win a major belt, against Valuev, at 7ft the tallest and heaviest champion. Valuev had a weight advantage of almost 100lbs.

I was ringside that night with correspondents from The Times and The Sunday Times and we all felt Valuev had won the contest. However, there was widespread disgust in the United States at the judges' verdicts.

However, in the light of protests, the WBA have announced they will investigate the decision, expected within the next few weeks, though what action the review will prompt is unclear. A rematch is possible.

After the fight, Holyfield had ruled out retirement, with his management team appealing for a rematch with the giant Russian.

However, Ken Sanders, Holyfield's manager, told The Daily Telegraph: "We are not suggesting anything underhand that might have gone on, but we do strongly disagree with the way the judges saw the fight."

Thomas Brooks, the American fighter's coach, was far more critical. "Everyone who saw that knows he won that fight. Nothing against Nikolai, or his trainer, who I have a lot of respect for. I'm not a judge, I call a spade a spade. But we won that fight."

Holyfield, whose record moved to 42-10-2, was gracious in defeat. He said: "I thought I had won the fight, I thought I had won more rounds than he did. My goal is to be heavyweight champion of the world, I am not interested in fighting for the sake of fighting, I want to be a champion again and that hasn't changed."

Wilfried Sauerland, Valuev's promoter, concurred at the time that a rematch was possible. "It was a very close fight and a draw might have been all right. As I predicted it was a battle between Holyfield's great boxing skills and Niko's size. I think that Holyfield won the first six and Valuev won the last six rounds, but Evander did not fight like a challenger in the second half of the fight. He only ran away and never punched. That is not how you win a title."

JUDGES CARDS: Nikolai Valuev v Evander Holyfield (WBA heavyweight title), Zurich.

World Boxing Association judges' cards. Verdict: Majority decision for Nikolai Valuev

Guillermo Perez (Valuev/Holyfield) 9-10, 9-10, 9-10, 10-9, 9-10, 10-9, 10-9, 10-9, 9-10, 9-10, 10-9, 10-9. Draw 114-114.
Mikael Hook (Valuev/Holyfield) 9-10, 9-10, 9-10, 10-9, 10-10, 10-9, 9-10, 10-9, 10-9, 10-9, 9-10, 10-9. Valuev wins 115-114.
Pierluigi Poppi (Valuev/Holyfield) 10-9, 9-10, 10-9, 9-10, 9-10, 10-9, 10-9, 10-9, 10-9, 9-10, 10-9, 10-9. Valuev wins 116-112.

In a fight which was clearly difficult to score clearly, all three judges agreed on only four rounds out of the twelve (rds 2, 6, 8 and 12). Valuev won the last round on all the judges' cards. Had Holyfield won the last round on the three judges' cards, he would have won the fight by split points decision.
Mean Mister Mustard
They won't overturn the decision, that would set a precedent that no one wants to start. They will just issue a rematch and get more money from the sanctioning fees.
JLUVBABY
i have reason to believe that the decision may be reveresed... wont say why right now... but i have goodreason to say that... may not happen but....
Col Reb
As much as this fight sucked, there deserves to be a rematch. That was the worst decision I've ever seen. DKP needs to get the rematch in America and it can be shown on Versus, b/c nobody will pay to see it. Then we will see the "move up sweepstakes", with the big light-heavies and cruisers licking their chops and jockeying for a title fight with Holyfield.
Rabbit Punch2
This has PPV written all over it. Probably a successful one if done properly.
JLUVBABY
sad thing is that if there is a mandated rematch i am not sure holyfield can duplicate the performance... not that thats saying much but i am not sure he can put it together again...
BGv2.0
QUOTE(JLUVBABY @ Jan 3 2009, 04:04 PM) [snapback]419095[/snapback]
sad thing is that if there is a mandated rematch i am not sure holyfield can duplicate the performance... not that thats saying much but i am not sure he can put it together again...


Yes, this is my number one concern as well. Holy is at that age now to where even a short 3-4 month window could make for a HUGE difference!

I still say that for a 46 year old man fighting a giant cave monster he did VERY WELL!

I mean you have admit, during the long course of his career a 7ft tall Behemoth was something even he had never been in with before.....so considering that I thought he did quit well.

People say it was boring.....and it was...but what could you have expected...Holyfield attempted to land his shots and avoid Valuev's....and Holy's age and Valuev's sheer cumbersome size....you had to know going in this was not going to be a fast paced fight.

So putting that all in perspective...I thought it was a very well executed plan by Holyfield.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE(BGv2.0 @ Jan 4 2009, 12:32 AM) [snapback]419140[/snapback]
Yes, this is my number one concern as well. Holy is at that age now to where even a short 3-4 month window could make for a HUGE difference!

I still say that for a 46 year old man fighting a giant cave monster he did VERY WELL!

I mean you have admit, during the long course of his career a 7ft tall Behemoth was something even he had never been in with before.....so considering that I thought he did quit well.

People say it was boring.....and it was...but what could you have expected...Holyfield attempted to land his shots and avoid Valuev's....and Holy's age and Valuev's sheer cumbersome size....you had to know going in this was not going to be a fast paced fight.

So putting that all in perspective...I thought it was a very well executed plan by Holyfield.


Holyfield fought the perfect fight against that big sorry bum.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(JLUVBABY @ Jan 4 2009, 06:38 AM) [snapback]419157[/snapback]
Holyfield fought the perfect fight against that big sorry bum.

You and BG are right..He did and he got robbed for it too..I don't even know what to say about this shit anymore..They robbed him of a lot of history and I feel bad as hell for him..
Rabbit Punch2
I am totally against Evander fighting anymore. If a rematch is deemed necessary, it should be in Vegas. If Evander would agree to cooperate they could hype as revenge, Evander's fifth belt, AND his retirement! There is money to be made. Hell Evander doesn't even have to retire. Nobody believes boxing retirements anyways. Why should they?

My personal preference is Evander never fighting again with the knowledge that he beat the title holder in his last fight of one of the great careers in heavyweight history.
Big Slim Sweet
QUOTE(JonnyBlaze @ Jan 4 2009, 07:28 AM) [snapback]419162[/snapback]
You and BG are right..He did and he got robbed for it too..I don't even know what to say about this shit anymore..They robbed him of a lot of history and I feel bad as hell for him..

Eh. It would have been manufactured history and all knowledgeable fans would have known it. No one considered Valuev a legitimate heavyweight champion.

BUT...Holyfield still could have claimed the whole 5-time champ thing I suppose, which would have at least been big for him personally.
Lil-lightsout
I just wish he would fight either Klit and get totally destroyed and then he would have to retire.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(Big Slim @ Jan 4 2009, 03:11 PM) [snapback]419182[/snapback]
Eh. It would have been manufactured history and all knowledgeable fans would have known it. No one considered Valuev a legitimate heavyweight champion.

BUT...Holyfield still could have claimed the whole 5-time champ thing I suppose, which would have at least been big for him personally.

It doesn't matter if would of been "manufactured history"..In 20-30 years no one would even of known..All that would really matter is that he did it..5 time champ and the oldest man ever to win the belt at 46 is something you can't take away no matter what..If Foreman had beat John Ruiz or someone like him for his belt at 45,would it of really mattered??Not at all..
Big Slim Sweet
QUOTE(JonnyBlaze @ Jan 4 2009, 07:14 PM) [snapback]419187[/snapback]
If Foreman had beat John Ruiz or someone like him for his belt at 45,would it of really mattered??Not at all..

I think so. Moorer had just beaten Holyfield. He was the undefeated, universally recognized heavyweight champion of the world. Had Foreman wiped out Bruce Seldon or someone of that ilk a year later when the title was fractured it wouldn't have been celebrated nearly the same way IMO.

But winning a belt at 46 would definitely have added to Holyfield's career accomplishments, particularly when looked at years from now.
D-MARV
QUOTE(Big Slim @ Jan 4 2009, 07:16 PM) [snapback]419190[/snapback]
I think so. Moorer had just beaten Holyfield. He was the undefeated, universally recognized heavyweight champion of the world. Had Foreman wiped out Bruce Seldon or someone of that ilk a year later when the title was fractured it wouldn't have been celebrated nearly the same way IMO.

But winning a belt at 46 would definitely have added to Holyfield's career accomplishments, particularly when looked at years from now.

Agreed!

Yeah, Holyfield was robbed but I'm over it now... Let's move on.
BGv2.0
QUOTE(Big Slim @ Jan 4 2009, 03:11 PM) [snapback]419182[/snapback]
Eh. It would have been manufactured history and all knowledgeable fans would have known it. No one considered Valuev a legitimate heavyweight champion.

BUT...Holyfield still could have claimed the whole 5-time champ thing I suppose, which would have at least been big for him personally.


I don't see how it would have been "manufactured history". The guy beat a current champion....making him a 5 time HW champion. Those are solid facts.

Now....many may argue how good a champion Valuev is.....but he is a champion.

Maybe I'm just in the minority though. I myself do consider Valuev a legit champion. However, that's not to say I think he is a good or skilled champion.

That to me would be like saying nobody would give Mike credit for becoming champ with the Seldon KO. I mean...everyone knew Seldon was crap....and the "punch" is even questionable....but nobody argues the fact that Mike won a strap from that fight.
Rabbit Punch2
QUOTE(BGv2.0 @ Jan 5 2009, 10:53 AM) [snapback]419209[/snapback]
I don't see how it would have been "manufactured history". The guy beat a current champion....making him a 5 time HW champion. Those are solid facts.

Now....many may argue how good a champion Valuev is.....but he is a champion.

Maybe I'm just in the minority though. I myself do consider Valuev a legit champion. However, that's not to say I think he is a good or skilled champion.

That to me would be like saying nobody would give Mike credit for becoming champ with the Seldon KO. I mean...everyone knew Seldon was crap....and the "punch" is even questionable....but nobody argues the fact that Mike won a strap from that fight.


So do you consider Valuev a two-time champ along side Floyd Patterson, George Foreman, Lennox Lewis, even Tyson, (if you want to acknowledge the Seldon flop job. I don't)?
JLUVBABY
fact of the matter is that at 46 holyfield wasnt supposed to be able to beat a guy holding a belt that is in his prime... i dont think it really matters how bonafide of a champ valuev is... regardless of how big a bum i and it seems most think he is he is still one of the better heavies in the division and holyfield beat him easily.. easier than chagaev beat him... for a guy 46 not given any type of chance i think that is tremendous...
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(Rabbit Punch2 @ Jan 5 2009, 03:12 PM) [snapback]419211[/snapback]
So do you consider Valuev a two-time champ along side Floyd Patterson, George Foreman, Lennox Lewis, even Tyson, (if you want to acknowledge the Seldon flop job. I don't)?

How the fuck could you not??It's in the record books,end of story!!
JLUVBABY
i have to agree with you johnny its notthese guys faults there or 3 and 4 if you wanna count the wbo champs floating around at any given time... valuev is now a 2 time champ because of all the belts that are out there... but you can also add that there is too much emphasis put on the number of times a guy has won the crown... lets take the case of holyfield.. you can argue yes he's a 4 time champ but that also means he lost the title 3 times... its all in how you look at it... valuev is not in the league with patterson, foreman tyson or most others that have come back and regained the title...
D-MARV
Holyfield beating Valuev does jack shit to Holyfield's legacy. It just shows you how bad the heavyweight division really is.
BGv2.0
QUOTE(damarvelous1 @ Jan 5 2009, 07:31 PM) [snapback]419237[/snapback]
Holyfield beating Valuev does jack shit to Holyfield's legacy. It just shows you how bad the heavyweight division really is.



I don't buy that. Years from now a 46 year old man winning the title a record 5th time.....that is noteworthy.
BGv2.0
QUOTE(Rabbit Punch2 @ Jan 5 2009, 03:12 PM) [snapback]419211[/snapback]
So do you consider Valuev a two-time champ along side Floyd Patterson, George Foreman, Lennox Lewis, even Tyson, (if you want to acknowledge the Seldon flop job. I don't)?



Well...you will have to inform be of the guy's history for me to answer that. I don't know all of Valuev's back story.

IF...he actually won those 2 titles in the ring...then yes I would consider him a legit 2x HW champ.
BGv2.0
QUOTE(Fitz @ Jan 5 2009, 07:34 PM) [snapback]419239[/snapback]
Do you consider DLH a real 6 division champion?


Don't know enough about him to say if I do or not. I suppose if he actually won 6 titles in 6 different divisions...then yes....I would.

JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(JLUVBABY @ Jan 5 2009, 06:43 PM) [snapback]419229[/snapback]
i have to agree with you johnny its notthese guys faults there or 3 and 4 if you wanna count the wbo champs floating around at any given time... valuev is now a 2 time champ because of all the belts that are out there... but you can also add that there is too much emphasis put on the number of times a guy has won the crown... lets take the case of holyfield.. you can argue yes he's a 4 time champ but that also means he lost the title 3 times... its all in how you look at it... valuev is not in the league with patterson, foreman tyson or most others that have come back and regained the title...

Exactly..Holy has lost the title 3 times before..The big thing about him regaining it is that he showed he is a true champion by going after it again and again and doing it..This is the same thing with Ali..In my opinion,it's a sign of greatness since some guys win it once and NEVER get the belt back..If you get knocked down(in this case lose a fight),you come back harder and win it back..

Holyfield--"A set back is only an opportunity for a comeback."
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(Fitz @ Jan 5 2009, 07:34 PM) [snapback]419239[/snapback]
Do you consider DLH a real 6 division champion?

Do you not??

It's in the books so 100 years from now no one is going to say he isn't..The middleweight belt in his 6 division accomplishment is a little bogus since we all think Sturm beat him..

So to say that he isn't a 6 division champ,how about we just start making our own shit up and say Holyfield is the 5 time world champ and is the oldest guy to win the belt even though on record he didn't win the belt..Come on man,that's bullshit..It's in the books so get over it..It happened and neither me or you can reverse the decision or take anything away from his legacy that has already been set..
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(Fitz @ Jan 5 2009, 11:08 PM) [snapback]419263[/snapback]
Technically yes, but it's a grey area. No real boxing fan is going to consider Holyfield the heavyweight champion had he won, because anyone with a brain knows that Wlad is the champion and until you beat him, any title anybody else wins is nothing more than a PAPER title.
DLH won a title in the 6th division against Sturm, but he was not a middleweight champion, that name belonged to Hopkins at the time. Just like when Mayweather fought Judah for the IBF title, Judah was not a champion, Baldomir was, Judah was a paper champion and so was Harris and Gatti when Tszyu dominated.
Understand?

I thought you were talking about belts in general(that's what it seemed like),not being undisputed or recognized as THE champ in the division..
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(Fitz @ Jan 6 2009, 12:21 AM) [snapback]419273[/snapback]
Well the majority of boxing fans don't consider DLH a 6 division champion, so I'm sure that those same people wouldn't consider Holyfield a 5 time champion if they use the same logic as they did with DLH.

Doesn't matter what anyone thinks in reality cause it happened whether ya consider them champ or not..They were A champ if not THE champ(not just in the DLH or Holy case)..Well if someone is going to consider DLH as a 5 division champ and not 6,why not Holy as a 5 time heavyweight champ??Those people have already gone against the boxing offical records so why not consider Holy as a 5 time champ since he got robbed outta it..DLH got robbed into the 6th division championship belt..It's basically the same thing..If ya take away a belt from someone since they got robbed into the championship,why not give someone a belt who was very much robbed of it??Doesn't make sense..
King Eugene
No matter what we think Valuev is considered a champ but not the undisputed champ and ODLH will always be remembered as a 6 division champ.

I mean when he is introduced in fights they always say 6 time/division champ.
King Eugene
QUOTE(Fitz @ Jan 6 2009, 01:04 AM) [snapback]419287[/snapback]
We know DLH is introduced as a 6 time champion, but when real boxing fans discuss, they will know certain fighters were NEVER champions in respectable divisions, they were just title holders which is very different to a boxing fan. I can understand when some divisions don't have a clear champion, and there are several fighters who can claim to be champions, but in DLH's 6th weight class and IF Holyfield were to have given the decision they wouldn't be considered 'world champions' by boxing fans because in those classes, there was a clear cut champion in those divisions and the only way you were going to be really recognized as a world champion is to have beaten those men.
So those guys were title holders, and will go down in the record books, but amongst people who know the sports, they will have a different opinion.

I understand where your coming from so with that I have a question for you that I want your opinion on. Did you recognize Cotto as the Champion or a title holder when Mayweather was still active? Like you I see the champion and other belt holders.

Did you and do you think Williams is the recognized Champ or belt holder. A long with that would you have considered Cotto the recognized Champ after Mayweather retired or Berto since he has Mayweather belts. You said in order to be the recognized champ you have to beat the recognized champ right?

Marg beat Cotto, Williams beat Marg, Berto picked up Mayweather's old belt, and Clottey has the highly recognized IBF belt.

So who is the man at 147?

Oh and is Joe Calzaghe the man at LHW cause he beat BHop for the Ring Belt who beat Tarver who beat Jones and lost his IBF to Chad Dawson who is disputedly considered the best LHW cause he has actually campaigned at LHW the longest. To me as a boxing fan Chad Dawson is the man to beat at LHW.

Again not disputing your opinions, just want to know yours on this issue since we are talking about Recognized Champs and belt holders.
King Eugene
Aight preciate it Fitz, my next question is what do you think of Mayweather choosing a fight with Baldomir over Margarito at the time then? Do you consider it ducking Margarito or taking the fight that makes more since?

Baldomir was recognized as the man after beating Judah right?
King Eugene
QUOTE(Fitz @ Jan 6 2009, 01:59 AM) [snapback]419297[/snapback]
It also doesn't matter how long you campaign for, it doesn't mean anything when you beat the man. What, so Mayweather wasn't the man at 147 because Margarito had more fights there? That's wrong.
If you think Dawson is the man, who do you think was the man at 175 when Jones-Tarver happened? Because if you believe Dawson is the man to beat at 175, you must think there was a top dog at 175 other than Jones or Tarver, which I just can't see.

No I agree Mayweather was the man, I just wanted to know what you thought.

Jones was the man til Tarver beat him. Thats how Bhop became the man cause he beat Tarver.

So by this logic would you say that ODLH would have been the pound for pound king had he beat Manny?
King Eugene
Yea he should have fought Margarito next but the Judah fight to me was pretty entertaining and competitive for the first 6 rounds.
BGv2.0
QUOTE(Fitz @ Jan 5 2009, 11:08 PM) [snapback]419263[/snapback]
Technically yes, but it's a grey area. No real boxing fan is going to consider Holyfield the heavyweight champion had he won, because anyone with a brain knows that Wlad is the champion and until you beat him, any title anybody else wins is nothing more than a PAPER title.


I am a "REAL" boxing fan...and I very much would have considered Evander a Champion.

Fans may not have considered Holyfield THE HW champion....but he would have for sure been A champion.

I think that is an issue that you are missing due to a possible bias toward favored fighters....or maybe not...it just seems like that might be the case.

I also don't agree with the idea that if you don't view Wlad as THE champion you are braindead.

At this time I consider Wlad EXACTLY what he is A Champion among multiple Champions. NOW....do I see him as the best...I did until his older brother screwed that all up....because now there is the question of who the better "champion" is between those two.

I also don't agree with your statement that if you don't beat Wlad you are holding a paper title.

Valuev/Holy was for the WBA belt....a title that if hard pressed to name a list of legit belts....I myself would include.

If you ask me to name the 3 belts I consider legit....even though they are all now corrupt and only about $$$$....I myself stick to the old trinity....IBF/WBC/WBA.

So in that since I did not see Valuev/Holy as a battle for a paper title. I saw it as a battle for one of the 3 major titles that ANY clear cut wannabe Unified HW champion should attempt to gain.

IMO...a "paper title" is when a guy like Monte Barett gets a belt for beating somebody like Al Cole and they give him the UBO HW title for the win....and then it's like some shoe box body called the Universal Boxing Organization.
Big Slim Sweet
QUOTE(damarvelous1 @ Jan 5 2009, 07:31 PM) [snapback]419237[/snapback]
Holyfield beating Valuev does jack shit to Holyfield's legacy. It just shows you how bad the heavyweight division really is.

Exactly right.
Big Slim Sweet
QUOTE(JonnyBlaze @ Jan 5 2009, 10:42 PM) [snapback]419259[/snapback]
The middleweight belt in his 6 division accomplishment is a little bogus since we all think Sturm beat him..

The middleweight belt in his 6 division accomplishment is totally bogus since we all know Hopkins was the champ.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(Fitz @ Jan 6 2009, 01:58 AM) [snapback]419286[/snapback]
Ok, you don't want to use my logic or the fans logic? Fair enough, I will use yours.

Doesn't matter what you think or anybody else thinks, cause it happened. Valuev won and got the decision and STILLLLLLLLLLLL 4 time heavyweight champion of the world......Evanderrrrrrr "The Reaallll Deaalll" Hoooolllllyfield.
The discussion ends here.

I don't give a shit,I already said it so you're not gettin at me in anyway..Toney also got the decision over Fres..We can't change it,all we can do is agrue it even though we can't get it changed..
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(Big Slim @ Jan 6 2009, 01:58 PM) [snapback]419316[/snapback]
The middleweight belt in his 6 division accomplishment is totally bogus since we all know Hopkins was the champ.

Hopkins was THE champ and DLH was a 6 division champ(he held one or more of the 4 major belts in 6 divisions)..
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(Fitz @ Jan 6 2009, 04:49 AM) [snapback]419308[/snapback]
I think you are more of a 'REAL' heavyweight fan. You didn't know if DLH was considered a 6 division champion or not. You are exceptional with your heavyweights though.

Well I'm a real hardcore boxing fan so what about me Fitz??

I would of considered Holy the 5 time champ had he got the decision he deserved..Since there is no undisputed champ unfortunately,ya have to give him credit for winning 1 of the 4 major belts..He would be recognized as a champ,but Wlad is THE champ no doubt..Even though I'm not a fan of having 4 major belts,this is the new era of boxing..Back in the day it was dope there was only one belt but if someone like Archie Moore were boxing today,he would of gotten his title shot a long time before he eventually did..It took him 18 years to finally get a shot and beat Maxim..More guys can be called champ today but most of them deserve it(especially in the WW division)..I'd rather have 1 undisputed champ though..To become undisputed champ takes a lot today since you have to get all the belts and unify..I know you all know that but I guess it makes being undisputed champ more special..There shouldn't be 4 belts though,it'd be better if there were only 2 or 3 at most..
stillperpetuallygrooving
hey damarvelous one, i like your racist rant at the bottom...hahaha riddle me this, though...why is there only a handful of black champions in ALL OF BOXING right now?!? HAHAHAHA, the great white hype is a thing of the past, boxing is dominated by people of caucasian ancestry...paul williams is the only true warrior that is black right now...hahah sam peter?!?1 HAHA that bum got bitched up by the WHITE klitschko...and yes, while htey hail from ukraine/russia, they are white......seriously, look at the rankings right now...nate campbell is about to get his ass kicked, so scratch him...that leaves, hmmm, aside from paul williams, NOOOBODY....
Mean Mister Mustard
QUOTE(stillperpetuallygrooving @ Jan 6 2009, 04:43 PM) [snapback]419334[/snapback]
hey damarvelous one, i like your racist rant at the bottom...hahaha riddle me this, though...why is there only a handful of black champions in ALL OF BOXING right now?!? HAHAHAHA, the great white hype is a thing of the past, boxing is dominated by people of caucasian ancestry...paul williams is the only true warrior that is black right now...hahah sam peter?!?1 HAHA that bum got bitched up by the WHITE klitschko...and yes, while htey hail from ukraine/russia, they are white......seriously, look at the rankings right now...nate campbell is about to get his ass kicked, so scratch him...that leaves, hmmm, aside from paul williams, NOOOBODY....


That guy you say is going to kick Campbell's ass is black so he would just be replacing another black guy. If you are going to try and be a smart ass you have to be a little witty otherwise you're just an ass, you chubby chaser you.
JonnyBlaze
I am irish and don't care if we have all white champs..It'd be the same to me if they were all black or mexican champs..It should be about the individual fighter,nothing else..I don't care if all the champs are from the US,UK,China,Africa,Mexico,or anywhere..It's cool when there is a dope irish fighter like Ward or a fighter from the US like Holyfield that is champ,but why does it matter??My top 3 favorite fighters of all time are black(Archie Moore,Sugar Ray Robinson,and Holyfield)..

Stillp---You forgot Chad Dawson at light heavy..By the way,that was a stupid post..This shit shouldn't matter in or outside of boxing..
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(Fitz @ Jan 6 2009, 05:28 PM) [snapback]419333[/snapback]
Wlad is unified, which is the next best thing, and is the clear champion at heavyweight. I don't think Wlad's status can be disputed.

No doubt about that..
Lil-lightsout
QUOTE(JonnyBlaze @ Jan 6 2009, 06:17 PM) [snapback]419338[/snapback]
I am irish and don't care if we have all white champs..It'd be the same to me if they were all black or mexican champs..It should be about the individual fighter,nothing else..I don't care if all the champs are from the US,UK,China,Africa,Mexico,or anywhere..It's cool when there is a dope irish fighter like Ward or a fighter from the US like Holyfield that is champ,but why does it matter??My top 3 favorite fighters of all time are black(Archie Moore,Sugar Ray Robinson,and Holyfield)..

Stillp---You forgot Chad Dawson at light heavy..By the way,that was a stupid post..This shit shouldn't matter in or outside of boxing..


I hear you. I root for fighters mainly based on there style and personality too.
BGv2.0
QUOTE(Fitz @ Jan 6 2009, 04:49 AM) [snapback]419308[/snapback]
I think you are more of a 'REAL' heavyweight fan. You didn't know if DLH was considered a 6 division champion or not. You are exceptional with your heavyweights though.


Sure you could have labelled Evander a 'champion', if you are throwing around that world loosely, and you are probably right, as boxing would consider him a champion, but once again, it's a word that's used loosely. I think to a lot of people, he just would have been a title holder. A champion isn't the same as being the champion, I don't like both titles being used for two guys, when there is one that is clearly superior. Why should Holyfield have the same title that Wlad is given at this point? I just don't like to call someone a champion when there is a clear champion. To me everyone else becomes titlists or something. I know it's petty and small, but I just can't call some guys champions even when they have titles.

How anybody could not consider Wlad the champion at this point is beyond me. Who else? Nobody comes close to Wlad at this point, he has beaten Peter (top ranked guys for Byrd's title), Byrd who was a champion (notice I said a champion? Because at this point, there wasn't one clear guy), Brock, Austin, Brewster, Ibragimov, Thompson and Rahman. He has beaten just about everyone in this pathetic division. He is unified and holds 2 major titles. If you don't consider that the champion, there is something wrong. Sure I can agree that someone might think Vitali is better, but that doesn't make him a champion and he doesn't have the resume of his brother (I actually think Vitali would win even though it would never happen), so until then.
You are also harping on about how it was for the WBA title. Yes it's one of the more recognisable titles, but it's the fighter that makes the belt also. Judah still held the IBF after losing to Baldomir, just because it's one of the 'major' titles, doesn't make Zab a champion.
Well yeah, maybe your description is for a paper title, but lets just refer to my others like Valuev as just a titlist.


Just because I don't know enough about Oscar's past to make a clear statement...that limits me to Heavyweights?

Whatever, man. I was raised on this sport and not just HWs......sure they were my favored division....but I don't think just because I was honest and did not take a stance on a subject YOU have a clear stance on...makes me some kind of lightweight that don't know about the sport on a whole.

"Clearly Superior" is often an opinion....which is what I think actually lends credit to being a title holder....to be THE MAN....you have to be proven. Sure...it's easy to look at Wlad and say...."I'm almost 100% sure he would beat Valuev and Povetkin"....but..."almost 100%"....is NOT 100%. And that is problem I have with that rationale.

I don't consider Wlad THE champion because he has not unified all of the major 3 titles.....that's always been my ideal "unified" champ.

IMO...he is A champion among a few.....one of the best....but still not 100% the proven best.

It's easy to simply pass aside a guy like Valuev.....but as a true boxing fan....you know styles make fights...AND that a 100% outcome is simply something that does not exist in this game.

Do I think Wlad would beat Valuev.....of course I do....am I 100% certain? Absolutley not....and THAT is why I question the validity of simply calling Wlad THE Champion.

You never know.

Once he beats Valuev....beats the other title holder....which as far as we know might end up being Gomez at some point...and leaves ZERO question as to who is the best by beating ALL....

THEN....for me at least he will have earned the title of THE Unified HW Champion.
King Eugene
QUOTE(stillperpetuallygrooving @ Jan 6 2009, 04:43 PM) [snapback]419334[/snapback]
hey damarvelous one, i like your racist rant at the bottom...hahaha riddle me this, though...why is there only a handful of black champions in ALL OF BOXING right now?!? HAHAHAHA, the great white hype is a thing of the past, boxing is dominated by people of caucasian ancestry...paul williams is the only true warrior that is black right now...hahah sam peter?!?1 HAHA that bum got bitched up by the WHITE klitschko...and yes, while htey hail from ukraine/russia, they are white......seriously, look at the rankings right now...nate campbell is about to get his ass kicked, so scratch him...that leaves, hmmm, aside from paul williams, NOOOBODY....

I take it you've never seen Coming to America.

You just made yourself look stupid as hell. That quote is from the movie. Hell the damn picture from the movie is in his sig too.
D-MARV
Why do you guys even respond to that TROLL?
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE(Fitz @ Jan 7 2009, 12:44 AM) [snapback]419368[/snapback]
Valuev or Povetkin don't have the resume close enough to match Wlad, so until then I have no idea how you can not clearly rate Wlad as the man at heavyweight. Wlad doesn't have to prove himself to those crappy fighters, they must prove themselves. Wlad has the credentials, those guys don't. It's that simple IMO.
We are never 100% certain.
As for your last sentence that is "bolded", it's too bad because by everyones definition, he is already a UNIFIED champion and that isn't debatable either. He holds 2 major titles, and that is the minimum to be considered a champion.
Lets have a look:

WBA - Valuev
WBC - V.Klitschko
IBF - W. Klitschko
WBO - W.Klitschko

Klitschko holds the majority of the titles and has a better resume than all titlists and current fighters (not including Holyfield where you must go back like 6 years). I don't even know why he must beat Povetkin for you to consider him the man, lol. Povetkin isn't even a title holder at this point.
I have no idea how your logic is working at this point. It's that clear.
Once again, the definition of a 'Unified' champion is clearly fit by Wlad, so there isn't anything to really dispute IMO.


Agreed Fitz, Klit is clearly the man.

I don't even particularly like Wlad but clear as day the guy owns 2 belts and has the better resume than most of dem udder bums campaigning at HW.

However that's the problem with having all those goddam belts is you get caught up in arguments like this one where someone can say well until he beats the WBC champion or the IBF champ or whatever whatever then he won't be the real guy in the division.

I'm just wondering how many totally unified champions are there in boxing right now? How many guys in their respective divisions own all 3/4 belts?

Not many would be my guess.
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