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King Eugene
I just check it out here:

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=

Straight from the horses mouth.
This would be a pretty good one even now. I dont know who I'd favor in this match up.
Michigan Assassin
Bernard dominates JT this time around IMO.

I think it finally got through to him after the Joe C fight that he has to step on the gas earlier and more often.

Both his loses to Taylor were very close and that was with Bernard not doing anything in the early rounds. This time around I see him opening up earlier and making it an easier fight for himself.
King Eugene
Yea you could be right.

He said after the Pavlik fight that he was going for KO's for now on out. If he can really check JT's chin (which I think he can) this will be one interesting fight cause we all know Taylor can be wobbled and KO'd.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE(3King3 @ Jan 10 2009, 01:05 AM) [snapback]419692[/snapback]
Yea you could be right.

He said after the Pavlik fight that he was going for KO's for now on out. If he can really check JT's chin (which I think he can) this will be one interesting fight cause we all know Taylor can be wobbled and KO'd.



i think styles make fights and at this point in his career jermains aggressive style gives hopkins fits... hopkins is better in most areas at this point in his career than he was earlier in his career but what i think is hurting him is he cant sustain an active fight like he would need to to win a fight like that... one thing is for sure jermain brings it... some might argue that hopkins beat pavlik but its a diffrent style of fight... sure hopkins wants revenge for those losses but at this point what he wants an gets might just be two diffrent things.... hopkins is the better fighter in my opinion all around but taylor has the style that will beat him... just like i think the styles of adamek and cunningham beat him as well... they are all too active for him... rather you think he won or lost its the reason calslappy was able to eek out a decision over him... fundementally he's better than all those guys but his work rate wont let him do what he needs to do during crunch time to pull them out... just my opinion.
D-MARV
Hopkins Doesn't dominate Taylor. (LOL) BHop may win but it will be close. Style DOES make fights and like JLUV said, Taylor has the style that Hopkins has/will have problems with.
Jack 1000
All due respect to the great fighter Bernard Hopkins. The problem is that he is no longer an entertaining fighter to watch, but could still provide close competitive fights. I was one of the people who actually thought the Calzaghe fight was extremely close and that Bernard microscopically pulled it out. HBO's Punch Stats were flawed that night. Calzaghe threw more, but slapped when he threw. Bernard countered with the more effective harder shots. Hopkins has turned from an entertaining fighter to a close, controversial decision fighter. He knows every trick in the book on surviving and making it close. But his brawling, mean fighting days are over. The two Jermain Taylor fights could have gone either way. (I thought Taylor won both fights 115-113) I don't put the type of stock in Bernard's domination of Pavlik because Kelly was out of his weight class. Pavlik just looked bad that night.

For the most part though Bernard Hopkins-Jermain Taylor I, II, and III (if a rubber match happens) is the equivalent if Marquez and Pacquiao kept fighting. You will get 114-114, 115-113 split decisions, majority decisions or draws every time Hopkins is in a close fight. Just as Marquez has the effective counter-punching ability to make Pacquiao look ordinary and keep it close whenever they fight. Hopkins-Taylor I, II, III or 23 isn't going to produce domination, only close fights just about every time out. Marquez-Pacquaio III, IV, or 24. Winky Wright? Look at how many fights he's competitive in, but can rarely get the big win.

I want to see guys lke Hopkins and Taylor in with someone who can make them go to war. The same with Manny Pacquiao. Have Hopkins or Taylor in against Froch. If you don't have guys like Hopkins, Taylor, or Wright in there with someone looking to rip the stylistic guys head off, boxing is going to see more 114-114, 115-113, 113-115 crap-shoots is to who wins. Because two stylists who don't bang will give us the same type of fight.

Hopkins-Taylor, III or IV. No more. Pacquaio-Marquez III. Rest, while they play chess. Get the Klitschkos against Haye or Arreloa in a tournament so we can see some fireworks. Make a Froch-Pascal rematch, something where the two guys in there are beating the two-sided piss out of each other. The same stylistic matches get boring after a while.

Jack
MarzB
Bernard "may not" be the most entertaining, rock'em sock'em fighter to watch all the time granted. But trust me on this, anyone that has ever been in the ring, trained boxers can recognize that EVERYTIME you watch Bernard you can learn something. Thats very entertaining to me personally.

It's been said before and said again that what makes Bernard fights "boring" (if you will although the Pavlik fight was far from that) is that he takes away what your options. It's no different than a passing team in football being turned into a running team where their running game is average.

The problem for Hopkins is that he hasn't taken full advantage of that and even he admitted that he didn't feel the need to take the risk. I don't blame him, people rarely would take that risk with their money in various things so it's his right to fight the way he deems is effective for him. I think he's been a DAMN smart fighter because he's the best over 40 fighter EVER and you add Archie Moore into equation he's above. He's done that because he hasn't been in a ton of wars.

Now that that said,

i think styles make fights and at this point in his career jermains aggressive style gives hopkins fits..


Totally agree. The one thing I'm totally amazed by Pavlik's camp was that they actually thought they were going to literally knock BHOP out. I personally question Jack Loew's ability to be an effective trainer and not just because of their horrid game plan/strategy. But their inability to adapt which leads me to this point. Had Jack Loew truly known how to scout fighters, he would have seen that Bernard (even after Calazaghe) was/is FAR from finished and still not only had bounce to his step but had quick hands when they needed to be.

Hop saw that he was faster than Pavlike and could beat him to the punch. Unfortunately for Hopkins, Taylor is faster than him and has a jab that Bernard HAS to respect and Bernard can't take it away from him throwing a right over the top of it. That said, I think 160lb was killing Hopkins to make in those Taylor fights so who's to say he may be stronger now.

Hopkins does have an advantage in that Taylor is NOT a smart fighter by any stretch. I think personally if Hopkins wants to keep fighting there are better and more lucrative fights than a Taylor fight (that overrated Euro sap Kessler being one)
Jack 1000
QUOTE(MarzB @ Jan 10 2009, 04:06 PM) [snapback]419726[/snapback]
Bernard "may not" be the most entertaining, rock'em sock'em fighter to watch all the time granted. But trust me on this, anyone that has ever been in the ring, trained boxers can recognize that EVERYTIME you watch Bernard you can learn something. Thats very entertaining to me personally.

It's been said before and said again that what makes Bernard fights "boring" (if you will although the Pavlik fight was far from that) is that he takes away what your options. It's no different than a passing team in football being turned into a running team where their running game is average.

The problem for Hopkins is that he hasn't taken full advantage of that and even he admitted that he didn't feel the need to take the risk. I don't blame him, people rarely would take that risk with their money in various things so it's his right to fight the way he deems is effective for him. I think he's been a DAMN smart fighter because he's the best over 40 fighter EVER and you add Archie Moore into equation he's above. He's done that because he hasn't been in a ton of wars.

Now that that said,

i think styles make fights and at this point in his career jermains aggressive style gives hopkins fits..


Totally agree. The one thing I'm totally amazed by Pavlik's camp was that they actually thought they were going to literally knock BHOP out. I personally question Jack Loew's ability to be an effective trainer and not just because of their horrid game plan/strategy. But their inability to adapt which leads me to this point. Had Jack Loew truly known how to scout fighters, he would have seen that Bernard (even after Calazaghe) was/is FAR from finished and still not only had bounce to his step but had quick hands when they needed to be.

Hop saw that he was faster than Pavlike and could beat him to the punch. Unfortunately for Hopkins, Taylor is faster than him and has a jab that Bernard HAS to respect and Bernard can't take it away from him throwing a right over the top of it. That said, I think 160lb was killing Hopkins to make in those Taylor fights so who's to say he may be stronger now.

Hopkins does have an advantage in that Taylor is NOT a smart fighter by any stretch. I think personally if Hopkins wants to keep fighting there are better and more lucrative fights than a Taylor fight (that overrated Euro sap Kessler being one)


I agee,

Hopkins turned back the clock 10 years with his slaughtering of Pavlik and if he could surprise people all the time with those types of performances Bernard would still be great to watch. The problem with Bernard is that his fights of the present going back 5 years are boring most of the time because he's still boxing-wise enough to make a competitive fight close, but prefers to conserve energy by not brawling like he did a decade ago, resulting in close, 50/50 debate decisions.

I'd rather remember the Bernard who fought like he did ten years ago when he shocked the world by beating Pavlik and Trinidad so easily rather than seeing a Hopkins vs. Taylor or Hopkins vs. Wright type fight. I guess my question is, does boxing really need Hopkins-Taylor III when there are better action fights on paper that could be made?

Jack
rusty_trombone
I don't know why this fight is being talked about? It's not like Hopkins or Taylor have reinvented the wheel since the last time they fought each other. Why would you make a third fight, when the first 2 fights went exactly the same? I would expect the third fight to go exactly the same, and am by no means intrigued by this match-up.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE(rusty_trombone @ Jan 10 2009, 05:00 PM) [snapback]419728[/snapback]
I don't know why this fight is being talked about? It's not like Hopkins or Taylor have reinvented the wheel since the last time they fought each other. Why would you make a third fight, when the first 2 fights went exactly the same? I would expect the third fight to go exactly the same, and am by no means intrigued by this match-up.


Preach on rusty trombone!!!...lol
streetlion1
I dont think this fight will happen but if it did it would be alot different than the other 2 and B-Hop dominates....maybe stops Taylor. To piggyback off earlier points...the fight isnt at 160 and Hop knows the formula for beating JT. Taylor still cant stop straight right hands or a jab for that matter...styles do make fights BUT B-Hop says he is going for the K.O. from now on and we'll see him with more offense and not just showing off his great defense. If thats the case then say goodnight to JT.

I would rather one of these guys fought Chad Dawson instead.
thehype
Of course a 3rd Taylor fight is a possibility...if Calzaghe won't give him the rematch, where else is Hopkins going to get the big money fight he's looking for?

Then again, last night, I thought he told BK that he didn't want to fight these younger guys anymore.

dntknw.gif
thehype
I think the only personal goal Hopkins is concerned about is how much more money he can add to his bank account before he finally does call it quits. Don't get me wrong...I'm sure you'll hear him say how important a third fight is, but really, he could care less about those first two losses because he knows he didn't lose them. At this point in his career, it's only about money.

Personally, I'd rather see him stick to his word and not fight any of these young cats. If he's going to fight someone, fight Glen Johnson...or how about
rusty_trombone
QUOTE(streetlion1 @ Jan 10 2009, 08:20 PM) [snapback]419739[/snapback]
I dont think this fight will happen but if it did it would be alot different than the other 2 and B-Hop dominates....maybe stops Taylor. To piggyback off earlier points...the fight isnt at 160 and Hop knows the formula for beating JT. Taylor still cant stop straight right hands or a jab for that matter...styles do make fights BUT B-Hop says he is going for the K.O. from now on and we'll see him with more offense and not just showing off his great defense. If thats the case then say goodnight to JT.

I would rather one of these guys fought Chad Dawson instead.

uh, hopkins didn't know the formula for beating him before? going for kos now? Why would a 43 year old fighter, who has never gone for KO's, who has lost a shitload of decisions due to his own lack of activity and had all these years to correct it suddenly change his entire style? So he leaves himself open to getting hurt, this late in his career? He's too smart for that, he's just trying to sell his upcoming fights. He's not going to try and knock out shit, he could have KO'd Trinidad in round 4, but didn't go for the kill all fight, Trinidad just finally collapsed. Hopkins is not a finisher, he never has been, and never will be. To quote something Tarver would say, " a leopard don't change it's spots, now give me some crack"

Geez, it's no wonder boxers keep getting away with making shitty fights, people believe anything that comes out of their mouths.
Snoop
State of mind also plays a factor. Hopkins just came off beating the middleweight champion of the world at his prime and Taylor just won against who? Jeff Lacy? Confidence is going to play a factor here. I'm not trying to use the whole, "well Hopkins beat Pavlik and Pavlik beat Taylor" argument, but you can't deny that it's playing with Taylor's mind.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE(snoopnick @ Jan 11 2009, 05:07 AM) [snapback]419793[/snapback]
State of mind also plays a factor. Hopkins just came off beating the middleweight champion of the world at his prime and Taylor just won against who? Jeff Lacy? Confidence is going to play a factor here. I'm not trying to use the whole, "well Hopkins beat Pavlik and Pavlik beat Taylor" argument, but you can't deny that it's playing with Taylor's mind.


there comes a time when a fighters body just wont do what that sharp mind wants it to do... or shall i say wont be able sustain the level of competitiveness it once did... i think that is hopkins downfall against the younger more seasoned fighters... his work rate just cant keep up anymore...
D-MARV
QUOTE(snoopnick @ Jan 11 2009, 06:07 AM) [snapback]419793[/snapback]
State of mind also plays a factor. Hopkins just came off beating the middleweight champion of the world at his prime and Taylor just won against who? Jeff Lacy? Confidence is going to play a factor here. I'm not trying to use the whole, "well Hopkins beat Pavlik and Pavlik beat Taylor" argument, but you can't deny that it's playing with Taylor's mind.

I think the fact that Taylor has beaten Hopkins twice already plays with Taylor's mind more.
Douchebag
I think people are reading too much into that Pavlik win. Don't forget that Nard looked like complete Garbage just one fight before that. Somebody that has good foot movement and fast hands will give Nard problems right now those where the advantages that Cal and JT had that Kelly did not.
streetlion1
QUOTE(Fitz @ Jan 10 2009, 11:29 PM) [snapback]419761[/snapback]
He went for the KO in just his last fight and really turned up the heat. Ever since his move from middleweight, his work rate has picked up a lot, and it has been pretty obvious.
From my observation, he seems to have got the message since the Taylor fight, or seems more fresh and natural in the higher weights. So streetlion I agree with, unless you are interpreting that he is going to transform into a Margarito type of fighter, but I didn't really interpret that though.


You got it right on point Fitz.....B-Hop's work rate has picked up since 160 and not only that but I say both men arent the same fighters they were. I think JT has lost a step while B-Hop remains at a very high level since moving up.

The people who say B-Hop is boring to watch or isnt a real finisher arent seeing what I see. A defensive mastermind who systematically breaks down other fighters. He has played it smart and never took serious punishment his whole career, His handspeed is still solid, still has his legs, and his power has always been under rated. His only REAL loss was to RJJ and still at this stage in his career he is the best.

I like JT but Pavlik just reinforced what we already knew after the gift decisions against B-Hop. The way to beat him is jab-jab-right hand.
Douchebag
QUOTE(streetlion1 @ Jan 11 2009, 01:14 PM) [snapback]419812[/snapback]
You got it right on point Fitz.....B-Hop's work rate has picked up since 160 and not only that but I say both men arent the same fighters they were. I think JT has lost a step while B-Hop remains at a very high level since moving up.

The people who say B-Hop is boring to watch or isnt a real finisher arent seeing what I see. A defensive mastermind who systematically breaks down other fighters. He has played it smart and never took serious punishment his whole career, His handspeed is still solid, still has his legs, and his power has always been under rated. His only REAL loss was to RJJ and still at this stage in his career he is the best.

I like JT but Pavlik just reinforced what we already knew after the gift decisions against B-Hop. The way to beat him is jab-jab-right hand.



Where was that improved work rate when he fought Calfaggy?
streetlion1
QUOTE(The Conscience @ Jan 11 2009, 12:56 PM) [snapback]419824[/snapback]
Where was that improved work rate when he fought Calfaggy?

I think in that fight if he had became aggressive after the knock down or at any point and made it a physical fight...he wouldve got the Homo outta there. He let Slappy fight his fight and didnt try to impose his size and also he had the Roach in his corner.

I think the rematch with Nas and a more aggressive gamplan would spell disaster once and for all for that paper champion Cuntslappy.
MarzB
I've mentioned this in another thread but it bears repeating. Hop was on SCott Farrell's show on Sirius the night before the Jones vs. Calzaghe fight.

He said that Calzaghe has mastered that "amateur style" to a science and that when you defend against that SWARM style it takes just as much out of you as if you punched.

That said, as crazy as this is gonna sound I think Hopkins was surprised by Calzaghe's rate and didn't totally prepare for it (who could duplicate that). Sure they had Mackie but I mean "boxing wise". Who could duplicate that in sparring.

I'd love to see a rematch but that Welsh Bitch seems to be the one running from it.
Snoop
I posted about "state of mind" and already three posters disputed me. Damn! haha. Well I would say this to each response:

"there comes a time when a fighters body just wont do what that sharp mind wants it to do... or shall i say wont be able sustain the level of competitiveness it once did... i think that is hopkins downfall against the younger more seasoned fighters... his work rate just cant keep up anymore..."

True. I generally agree but Taylor isn't the one to do it. I don't think Taylor has that strong of a mentality, especially the way his career has been going as of late. That coupled with Hopkins coming off a spectacular win off the middleweight champion (I'm not praising Pavlik's skills, just stating a fact), equals a Hopkins win IMO.

"I think the fact that Taylor has beaten Hopkins twice already plays with Taylor's mind more."

In what ways? Are you saying it gives him more confidence? I guess I could see that. But to see Hopkins literally TOY with a fighter that brutally KO'd him once, then convincingly beat him the second time, can't sit with him well. I just don't think Taylor is that smart.

"I think people are reading too much into that Pavlik win. Don't forget that Nard looked like complete Garbage just one fight before that. Somebody that has good foot movement and fast hands will give Nard problems right now those where the advantages that Cal and JT had that Kelly did not.

Oh by no means am I trying to over-rate Pavlik. He's a simple fighter with a punch. I just don't have enough faith in Taylor's will and mind to see those things. That's all I was trying to say.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE(The Conscience @ Jan 11 2009, 11:58 AM) [snapback]419810[/snapback]
I think people are reading too much into that Pavlik win. Don't forget that Nard looked like complete Garbage just one fight before that. Somebody that has good foot movement and fast hands will give Nard problems right now those where the advantages that Cal and JT had that Kelly did not.


thats been my point exactly...
JLUVBABY
QUOTE(snoopnick @ Jan 11 2009, 01:30 PM) [snapback]419827[/snapback]
I posted about "state of mind" and already three posters disputed me. Damn! haha. Well I would say this to each response:


"there comes a time when a fighters body just wont do what that sharp mind wants it to do... or shall i say wont be able sustain the level of competitiveness it once did... i think that is hopkins downfall against the younger more seasoned fighters... his work rate just cant keep up anymore..."

True. I generally agree but Taylor isn't the one to do it. I don't think Taylor has that strong of a mentality, especially the way his career has been going as of late. That coupled with Hopkins coming off a spectacular win off the middleweight champion (I'm not praising Pavlik's skills, just stating a fact), equals a Hopkins win IMO.

Taylors done it twice and though i dont think he is a better i think hopkins has degressed as a fighter....

"I think the fact that Taylor has beaten Hopkins twice already plays with Taylor's mind more."

In what ways? Are you saying it gives him more confidence? I guess I could see that. But to see Hopkins literally TOY with a fighter that brutally KO'd him once, then convincingly beat him the second time, can't sit with him well. I just don't think Taylor is that smart.

styles make fights... example.... joe frazier and ken norton both went life and death with ali 3 times, some think norton won all 3 fights... george foreman beat the hell out of both of them (norton and frazier), frazier twice... ali beat the hell out of foreman, wore him down to nothing in 8 rounds... styles make fights...

"I think people are reading too much into that Pavlik win. Don't forget that Nard looked like complete Garbage just one fight before that. Somebody that has good foot movement and fast hands will give Nard problems right now those where the advantages that Cal and JT had that Kelly did not.

Oh by no means am I trying to over-rate Pavlik. He's a simple fighter with a punch. I just don't have enough faith in Taylor's will and mind to see those things. That's all I was trying to say.

i agree people have read too much into hopkins win over pavlik... pavlik was made to order for hopkins... he was a green not seasoned enough fighter with one weapon, jab right hand that was slow of foot... dont drink the kool-aid on what hopkins is saying... there are several proposed fights that i guarentee will be his last fight as a loss if he takes them and jermain is one of them.. hopkins get outworked again... he cant fight younger quicker fighters... its the reason calslappy was able to slap his way to a close victory.. he got out worked... like him all you want he has the mind to be the best in the world but his body wont let him do what he used to do... i've been privlaged enough to watch hopkins since his early days back in the early 90's when his fights where shown on B.E.T network, do you remember that?... not many people do... I think the only reason hopkins still plugs along is because he didnt get his props early in his career when he was ripping through the middleweights as a young champ and he's looking to make him a lil extra money... he was overlooked for years back in the mid and late 90's into early 2000's when king tried to serve him up as fodder for trinidad and the world finally got to see him on center stage, he had been champ bout 6 years by that time, thats how he first really got his name familiar with the main stream... hopkins is the only fighter to ever fight on even terms with a prime roy jones jr... and if you check out his record after he first title win he beat a very solid list of middleweight contenders... he cleaned out the division... so his career has been very solid and he is a top 3 all time great middleweight in my estimation.. i rank only monzon and hagler above him... but the fact is that he is not the fighter he was back in bout 95 till his fight with trinidad... starting with his fight with trinidad he changed his style... prior to trinidad and you can check his record he was knocking a lot of guys out... his knockout ration dropped cuzz his body was aging and like ali after the exile he had to change his style to continue with his career... the change worked and became a smarter fighter.. what he had up until around the time he fought taylor was speed of foot and hand.. he's lost a little at a time fight by fight since... hopkins has slowed to where he cant fight the young guys effectively.. check his record... since taylor his record is 3-1 no k.o's and those wins are a never really was antonio tarver, a winky wright that keeps ring rust he needs to retire because he dont fight enough to stay sharp, and kelly "mr. green, slow of foot and losing his punch moving up in weight" pavlik who needs to fire his whole team for taking that fight... hopkins will milk the people that drink his kool-aid for one more fight.. its the buisness but he hasnt been a world beater in some years now...


hitman
so is hopkins pretty much ducking chad dawson? i heard him say something like he didn't want to fight dawson because boxing needs young champions. which doesn't make any since because he just fought pavlik.
Mean Mister Mustard
I don't really understand how people can pick Hopkins for a third fight under the argument that this time "he will go for the KO". Do you think going for the KO didn't cross his mind in the second fight? If he didn't do it then it is because he understands he cannot do it. He looked really good against Pavlik, ok, but he can't look like that against every guy specially against guys with faster hands than his like JT. It's a shame that Hopkins ,who is so much better than JT, may never beat him due to their styles.
Snoop
"styles make fights... example.... joe frazier and ken norton both went life and death with ali 3 times, some think norton won all 3 fights... george foreman beat the hell out of both of them (norton and frazier), frazier twice... ali beat the hell out of foreman, wore him down to nothing in 8 rounds... styles make fights..."

For sure styles makes fights, but it also isn't everything. I think the point Fitz just made (one that I hadn't even thought about), is a key factor. Hopkins beat himself by not throwing a lot in the Taylor fights just as much, if not more, as Taylor's workrate did. If that first fight had gone 15 rounds, Taylor would have been KO'd. Also I'm taking into consideration all the factors that people have mentioned here, but I also believe that state of mind is an overlooked factor in fights. Anyone who has trained in the sport will tell you that.

What weight would this fight take place at anyways?
JonnyBlaze
Fitz,where did ya get all those punch stats on Hopkins??His punch stats speak louder than almost anyone elses IMO..Even more than guys who throw over 1000 punches..You can still lose a fight throwing over 1000 but if it's Hopkins throwing over 500,you know it was serious shit and ya can't go against him..He is so precise with his punches..His sneaky/short right hand is such an awesome punch..
D-MARV
QUOTE(Fitz @ Jan 11 2009, 09:29 PM) [snapback]419869[/snapback]
Hopkins-Taylor I: Hopkins threw 326 punches
Hopkins-Taylor II: Hopkins threw 371 punches

Hopkins moves up from middle:
Hopkins-Tarver: Hopkins threw 417 punches
Hopkins-Wright: Hopkins threw 640 punches
Hopkins-Calazghe: Hopkins threw 468 punches
Hopkins-Pavlik: Hopkins threw 530 punches

Yeah, but none of those guys you named are as fast and explosive as JT. (Maybe Calzaghe has the speed but he lacked power.)

There was a reason why BHOP didn't throw alot against JT. I dont see any difference in a third fight. A close points victory either way.
Lil-lightsout
Going off there last performances, give me Hopkins by KO or TKO. JT looked decent against Lacy, but he held WAY too much. Hopkins looked great his last time out. JT was undefeated when they first fought, and now getting beat twice by Pavlik, and once getting KO'd, I think it be only a matter of time before Hopkins would catch him with something big or just give him a methodical beatdown.
King Eugene
I agree with a lot of you guys points but I dont see this fight playing out much different than the other two. I think both of their workrates will increase and at the end of the fight it will still be a close decision.

I base this on JT's speed and footwork. Like DMarv said fighters with good speed and footwork gives Hopkins problems. RJJ is a prime example. Hopkins didnt fight anyone with near the same footwork or handspeed until he fought JT and Calzaghe.

As close as it might be I still see Hopkins getting the SD this time around.

Oh and as far as JT holding a lot in his last fight. I didnt see much difference in what he did as to what Hopkins does. Hit and not get hit by holding after you get off. Prime example is the Hopkins vs. Wright fight.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
The second fight was close but I definately felt Hops won the first fight. The decision in that fight had all the makings of HBO building up their future star and saying goodbye to the old one, except it hasn't really worked out that way. LOL.
Mean Mister Mustard
QUOTE(Fitz @ Jan 11 2009, 11:22 PM) [snapback]419887[/snapback]
Just google.
So what's your reason for Hopkins only throwing 346 against Howard Eastman?


That is a good point I had not thought about. If that is the case and he did try and step it up in the second Taylor fight then it proved to be futile as he lost that with less controversy.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE(snoopnick @ Jan 11 2009, 09:03 PM) [snapback]419873[/snapback]
"styles make fights... example.... joe frazier and ken norton both went life and death with ali 3 times, some think norton won all 3 fights... george foreman beat the hell out of both of them (norton and frazier), frazier twice... ali beat the hell out of foreman, wore him down to nothing in 8 rounds... styles make fights..."

For sure styles makes fights, but it also isn't everything. I think the point Fitz just made (one that I hadn't even thought about), is a key factor. Hopkins beat himself by not throwing a lot in the Taylor fights just as much, if not more, as Taylor's workrate did. If that first fight had gone 15 rounds, Taylor would have been KO'd. Also I'm taking into consideration all the factors that people have mentioned here, but I also believe that state of mind is an overlooked factor in fights. Anyone who has trained in the sport will tell you that.

What weight would this fight take place at anyways?


hopkins didnt throw alot because taylors style didnt allow for that to happen.. and if you want to bring state of mind into the equation you can argue that taylor is thinking, "ok, i may not be able to beat pavlik but i beat hopkins twice he's a safe bet big reward fight for me..."... that can be viewed both ways...
Snoop
QUOTE(JLUVBABY @ Jan 12 2009, 07:12 PM) [snapback]419940[/snapback]
hopkins didnt throw alot because taylors style didnt allow for that to happen.. and if you want to bring state of mind into the equation you can argue that taylor is thinking, "ok, i may not be able to beat pavlik but i beat hopkins twice he's a safe bet big reward fight for me..."... that can be viewed both ways...

I see what you're saying. Styles could have prevented Hopkins from throwing, but judging off the first fight (I honestly can't remember much of the second), the fight completely turned when Hopkins decided to turn it on. Like I said before, had the fight gone 15 rounds, JT woulda been on his ass if not completely KTFO.

The mentality thing could definitely go both ways. I just don't think JT has that much confidence in his skills ever since he won the middleweight title. I mean what performance did he have after Hopkins that was impressive? The only one I can think of was the fight against Winky, and I thought a draw was a good decision.


Snoop
And nobody answered my question. What weight is this fight being discussed at?
JLUVBABY
QUOTE(snoopnick @ Jan 12 2009, 12:32 PM) [snapback]419948[/snapback]
I see what you're saying. Styles could have prevented Hopkins from throwing, but judging off the first fight (I honestly can't remember much of the second), the fight completely turned when Hopkins decided to turn it on. Like I said before, had the fight gone 15 rounds, JT woulda been on his ass if not completely KTFO.

The mentality thing could definitely go both ways. I just don't think JT has that much confidence in his skills ever since he won the middleweight title. I mean what performance did he have after Hopkins that was impressive? The only one I can think of was the fight against Winky, and I thought a draw was a good decision.


for the record i thought hopkins won the first fight very narrowly but i thought he won.. but that dont take away from the decline and his decline was more evident in the second fight that he clearly lost.. and my thing is taylor might struggle fight after fight to win or he might even lose but his style bugs the hell out of hopkins everytime... every great fighter has that one guy that just gives him hell.. well with hopkis its not a one man its a style at this point... buiser fighters are gonna bring him places his body dont wanna go... imma be as bold to say this.. forget the big names we mention him fighting.. i will say if hopkins fights a solid young contender like a chris henry he struggles.. he might win but he will struggle and its because his body dont do what it used to do... his mind wants to bring it to the next level but his body just cant... he is surviving more so on ring smarts than anything else at this point... again all this stuff is just my opinions so take it for what it is...
Snoop
QUOTE(JLUVBABY @ Jan 12 2009, 07:53 PM) [snapback]419958[/snapback]
for the record i thought hopkins won the first fight very narrowly but i thought he won.. but that dont take away from the decline and his decline was more evident in the second fight that he clearly lost.. and my thing is taylor might struggle fight after fight to win or he might even lose but his style bugs the hell out of hopkins everytime... every great fighter has that one guy that just gives him hell.. well with hopkis its not a one man its a style at this point... buiser fighters are gonna bring him places his body dont wanna go... imma be as bold to say this.. forget the big names we mention him fighting.. i will say if hopkins fights a solid young contender like a chris henry he struggles.. he might win but he will struggle and its because his body dont do what it used to do... his mind wants to bring it to the next level but his body just cant... he is surviving more so on ring smarts than anything else at this point... again all this stuff is just my opinions so take it for what it is...

True enough. And don't get me wrong, I respect your opinions. They're very valid and actually making me question my own. My only thing is the mentality thing. Hopkins is a genius at fighting. He starts beating his opponent at the press conferences. I think he would scare the shit out of JT at just what he would say to the public.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE(snoopnick @ Jan 12 2009, 01:00 PM) [snapback]419962[/snapback]
True enough. And don't get me wrong, I respect your opinions. They're very valid and actually making me question my own. My only thing is the mentality thing. Hopkins is a genius at fighting. He starts beating his opponent at the press conferences. I think he would scare the shit out of JT at just what he would say to the public.


fair enough..lol... I just dont see where taylor has showed he's mentally troubled by his two losses... he took time off rested said he was ready and came back an beat the mess ouut of lacy... actually to me made it look fairly easy... lacy is shot but it was a good confidence booster.
Snoop
Makes sense since Taylor's last fight was at super middle.
rusty_trombone
I'm pretty sure Taylor is used to Hopkins mind games, since they fought twice and he won both times. Hopkins work rate hasn't picked up, he always fights the same. He fights a smart, safety first measured fight. He only takes the Ko if its there, he never goes for it he never would risk going for a knockout unless he was 100% sure he's gonna get it. Suddenly now, at 43 he's going to be an offensive powerhouse that leaves himself open early in fights because he's going for a ko? Cmon, you guys are smarter than that, he would never risk losing a decision by going for an early ko and not getting it. He's a better tactician than that, and he certainly doesn't want any brain damage in the twilight of his career.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE(rusty_trombone @ Jan 12 2009, 11:29 PM) [snapback]420120[/snapback]
I'm pretty sure Taylor is used to Hopkins mind games, since they fought twice and he won both times. Hopkins work rate hasn't picked up, he always fights the same. He fights a smart, safety first measured fight. He only takes the Ko if its there, he never goes for it he never would risk going for a knockout unless he was 100% sure he's gonna get it. Suddenly now, at 43 he's going to be an offensive powerhouse that leaves himself open early in fights because he's going for a ko? Cmon, you guys are smarter than that, he would never risk losing a decision by going for an early ko and not getting it. He's a better tactician than that, and he certainly doesn't want any brain damage in the twilight of his career.


you dont post enough trombone...lol...
Maxy
Froch-Taylor is a much better fight.

Couldn't give a shit about Hopkins-Taylor III.
rusty_trombone
QUOTE(Fitz @ Jan 13 2009, 04:47 AM) [snapback]420133[/snapback]
Unfortunately, numbers don't lie. Unless you are suggesting that the numbers provided since moving from 160 are lower or the same as his last fights at middle? We judge work rate by punch output, and the method we use to determine work rate is saying the total opposite of what you just said.

Hopkins-Eastman: Hopkins threw 346 punches
Hopkins-Taylor I: Hopkins threw 326 punches
Hopkins-Taylor II: Hopkins threw 371 punches

Hopkins moves up from middle:
Hopkins-Tarver: Hopkins threw 417 punches
Hopkins-Wright: Hopkins threw 640 punches
Hopkins-Calazghe: Hopkins threw 468 punches
Hopkins-Pavlik: Hopkins threw 530 punches

Don't throw your numbers out there, like they mean anything. Shit, no one on this board trusts compubox. They all think it's a big conspiracy that screws fighters like Hopkins. Seriously though, I obviously didn't know those numbers, but still don't expect him to fight Taylor any different than he did the previous two times. Hopkins I mean, he still thinks he won those fights, so why change a winning strategy? He still is a safety first fighter, that will never change.
rusty_trombone
QUOTE(Fitz @ Jan 13 2009, 07:43 PM) [snapback]420196[/snapback]
People dispute the punches landed, not thrown. Why do you think people harp on that Joe, Margarito etc throw over 1000 a fight? Because people pay attention to the thrown department, not the landed department though, so you are wrong there.
I just think it's been obvious that Hopkins work rate has been picked up since moving from 160, and I didn't need numbers to show me that as I was aware of this by just watching, I just used the numbers to back it up.

I was being sarcastic about the numbers, I thought you of all people would have gotten that. Notice the "seriously though" after the first line. Man Fitz, you're worse than the damn "liberal gotcha media" taking my shit out of context. Never trust an Aussie, their toilets run backwards.

And I agreed, his workrate has increased, but he hasn't turned into an offensive powerhouse. He's still a safety first guy, that will only take the KO if it's easily attainable.
D-MARV
QUOTE(Fitz @ Jan 13 2009, 04:47 AM) [snapback]420133[/snapback]
Unfortunately, numbers don't lie. Unless you are suggesting that the numbers provided since moving from 160 are lower or the same as his last fights at middle? We judge work rate by punch output, and the method we use to determine work rate is saying the total opposite of what you just said.

Hopkins-Eastman: Hopkins threw 346 punches
Hopkins-Taylor I: Hopkins threw 326 punches
Hopkins-Taylor II: Hopkins threw 371 punches

Hopkins moves up from middle:
Hopkins-Tarver: Hopkins threw 417 punches
Hopkins-Wright: Hopkins threw 640 punches
Hopkins-Calazghe: Hopkins threw 468 punches
Hopkins-Pavlik: Hopkins threw 530 punches

Fitz,
I hope I'm not asking for too much... But, How many of those shots were Power Shots?
D-MARV
QUOTE(Fitz @ Jan 13 2009, 10:24 PM) [snapback]420233[/snapback]
He threw 304 against Pavlik.
He threw 375 against Calzaghe
He threw 549 against Wright
He threw 343 against Tarver.

Is it anything other than a jab?

Yep.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(Fitz @ Jan 13 2009, 11:24 PM) [snapback]420233[/snapback]
He threw 304 against Pavlik.
He threw 375 against Calzaghe
He threw 549 against Wright
He threw 343 against Tarver.

Can't be bothered checking the others. I'm not sure what compubox define as "power shots" though. Is it anything other than a jab?

Wow,I don't remember him throwing 549 power shots against Wright..I'm surprised he only threw about 100 jabs in that fight..I might have to rewatch it since I don't remember the fight in a lot of detail but remember Hopkins bustin Wright up like no one had before..
rusty_trombone
QUOTE(JonnyBlaze @ Jan 14 2009, 10:23 PM) [snapback]420367[/snapback]
Wow,I don't remember him throwing 549 power shots against Wright..I'm surprised he only threw about 100 jabs in that fight..I might have to rewatch it since I don't remember the fight in a lot of detail but remember Hopkins bustin Wright up like no one had before..

yeah, wright is a jew(thats lefty), so of course he threw a shitton of right hands. im sure he threw a bunch like a jab, they don't count how hard he threw the "power shots", as long as its not a jab.
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