Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Archie Moore vs. Roy Jones Jr.
FightHype Community > BOXING HYPE > Classic Boxing
Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(3King3 @ Feb 4 2009, 04:22 AM) [snapback]423702[/snapback]
I've seen clips of Archie but still not enough to convince me he would have beat Roy. I'll try to find the Durelle fights though.

Check out the fights I put up..They'll give ya a good idea what he's about..The third one down is probably the best since ya get 10 minutes of footage and it shows what he likes to do.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(Fitz @ Feb 4 2009, 04:40 AM) [snapback]423704[/snapback]
No he wouldn't. I have heard it before, and I know that old trainers look at it the same way you do. They are old school and do things how it used to be done. Not that they do it wrong, but it's stupid because they think another technique is wrong, when it is achieving the same results, but they are too naive to even know that.

Evander is your favourite fighter yes?
The thing is, when I was defending weight training, I wasn't even talking about it the way Holyfield does it, there is weight training that is more compound training like Brad mentioned earlier. Where it works multiple muscles with a basic lift (like a dead lift) which is one of the best exercises instead on focusing on one single body part and that's where you and your trainer are wrong. You think weight training is body building.

I used to do weights too and it held me back..Do you and Brad consider punching with 16 oz. gloves on weight training too??

Holy is my favorite fighter still alive and is in my top 3 all time favorites with Archie and Sugar Ray Robinson..I know and knew Holy used weights..Holy was actually one of the first boxers to start using more modern methods of training..
Fitz
QUOTE(JonnyBlaze @ Feb 4 2009, 07:48 PM) [snapback]423706[/snapback]
Do you and Brad consider punching with 16 oz. gloves on weight training too??


That's tough, kind of. But I do this and seen others. I shadow box with very light dumbells.

QUOTE(JonnyBlaze @ Feb 4 2009, 07:48 PM) [snapback]423706[/snapback]
Holy is my favorite fighter still alive and is in my top 3 all time favorites with Archie and Sugar Ray Robinson..I know and knew Holy used weights..Holy was actually one of the first boxers to start using more modern methods of training..


So what's wrong with it then?
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(Fitz @ Feb 4 2009, 04:55 AM) [snapback]423707[/snapback]
That's tough, kind of. But I do this and seen others. I shadow box with very light dumbells.
So what's wrong with it then?

A boxers muscles should be long and loose not tight and short..Shadow boxing with light dumbells is kinda the same as having a glove on..I have 24 oz(2 lb.) gloves I use and I have my 16 oz. gloves(1 lb)..

I don't know if we are talking about the same stuff but it seems like we might be but not completely I think..

Holy took some speed off his punches once he got heavy into his weight work outs IMO..
King Eugene
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKQwO9QxM1M

Alright Johnny I checked out the vid.

A couple I would like to point out is that Archie is extremely slow compared to Roy which was already stated earlier. He pulls his jab back slow and you know how good Roy was at countering the jab. Prime example is the Reggie Johnson fight. Everybody knows you got to snap that jab and bring it back high. Roys favorite punch was the leading left look and Archie is wide open for it. I'm not judging that off one video, I'm judging it off what all I saw on youtube. I only posted this one cause it was the fight you where referring too.
Spyder
QUOTE(Fitz @ Feb 4 2009, 12:05 AM) [snapback]423647[/snapback]
My point wasn't that boxers need to swim or anything, it was more to show that athletes seem to advance in every sport where they judge by numbers and records, but why isn't this the case with boxing? But of course you took my post at face value and thought that I meant that boxers need to swim, lol.

I knew what you meant...and that's why I asked you how any of those things would help someone fight better...did man JUST figure out how to fight?

Boxing, unlike other sports, doesn't have advancement in equipment to help performance...they don't have juiced up golf balls to help their drives go farther. It's just you and the guy across the ring...

That's one of the things that I love about the sport...without cheating, the playingfield is even. A poor dude that can't afford to buy Reyes gloves can still whoop your ass with a pair of Titles.

Take Sugar Ray Robinson...let him train in the 1940's...and put him in the ring with ANYONE that has access to this "advancement" in man, and he would whoop the shit out of him.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(3King3 @ Feb 4 2009, 07:09 AM) [snapback]423714[/snapback]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKQwO9QxM1M

Alright Johnny I checked out the vid.

A couple I would like to point out is that Archie is extremely slow compared to Roy which was already stated earlier. He pulls his jab back slow and you know how good Roy was at countering the jab. Prime example is the Reggie Johnson fight. Everybody knows you got to snap that jab and bring it back high. Roys favorite punch was the leading left look and Archie is wide open for it. I'm not judging that off one video, I'm judging it off what all I saw on youtube. I only posted this one cause it was the fight you where referring too.

Archie may be slower than Jones but he still had speed..Check out Marciano vs. Archie and tell me he's open for left hooks cause he sure slips and ducks under a lot of em..The quality of most Archie film is not very good so I could see how anyone would think he was being hit..People think James Toney and Floyd are being hit when they aren't too..It's those small things that are hard to see at first look no matter how good of an eye you have for boxing..Angles of the camera are a big factor too..I'm not saying he's never been hit with a left hook cause he has but his defense is a lot better than most would think IMO..Did you notice how hard Archie hits??His right hand could put away virtually anyone ever at light heavyweight..Did ya like what ya saw of Archie??Watch Archie's countering abilities too..
STEVENSKI
QUOTE(JonnyBlaze @ Feb 4 2009, 07:45 AM) [snapback]423696[/snapback]
Brad,all this weight lifting talk is stupid..Look at shoulder muscles in Larry Holmes or Dempsey and compare them to Tyson or Lacy..The shoulder is tight and compact(like Mosley)..Dempsey's shoulder muscles are going into his bicep muscle just about..


I have a great photo of Manassa Jack working ouit with a chest expander. He was a ripped machine with long lean muscles.

I have heard that Tyson would not do weights as a youngster but use resistance exercises like the old timers.
D-MARV
I dont agree with the notion that fighters shouldn't lift weights. Alot of elite fighters from our era used weights in the workouts.

Roy Jones Jr.
Manny Pacquiao
Kosta Tszyu
Ricky Hatton


You guys do know you can still lift weights without putting on weight, Right?
Fitz
QUOTE(STEVENSKI @ Feb 5 2009, 11:20 AM) [snapback]423785[/snapback]
I have heard that Tyson would not do weights as a youngster but use resistance exercises like the old timers.


That's the problem, you can actually do resistance exercises with dumbells. Johnny and his trainer don't know this though and think it's wrong.
STEVENSKI
No I mean he would only use his bodyweight doing chins & dips etc.
Fitz
Yes, there is nothing wrong with that. But people like Johnny think that this is the only and correct way.
BigG
You can tell from watching that vid how GREAT the legedary Archie Moore was. He would have dominated this era. But prime Jones Jr. presents a difficult style for him to fight. Speed, athleticism , and Jones own ring smarts would give him problems
STEVENSKI
Jones is not smart in the ring he is a cat with a yellow streak the size of texas running down his back.
King Eugene
QUOTE(JonnyBlaze @ Feb 4 2009, 04:43 PM) [snapback]423753[/snapback]
Archie may be slower than Jones but he still had speed..Check out Marciano vs. Archie and tell me he's open for left hooks cause he sure slips and ducks under a lot of em..The quality of most Archie film is not very good so I could see how anyone would think he was being hit..People think James Toney and Floyd are being hit when they aren't too..It's those small things that are hard to see at first look no matter how good of an eye you have for boxing..Angles of the camera are a big factor too..I'm not saying he's never been hit with a left hook cause he has but his defense is a lot better than most would think IMO..Did you notice how hard Archie hits??His right hand could put away virtually anyone ever at light heavyweight..Did ya like what ya saw of Archie??Watch Archie's countering abilities too..

I've seen everything you mentioned already. I also saw how he kept his right hand low from the beginning bell. The only fight I noticed he kept it was was the Joey Maxim fight. And yea I've been a fan of Archie Moore but I still dont believe he would have been able to get to Roy like he did those other guys just based on Roy's quickness, foot speed, and countering opinion.

Then again thats just my opinion dntknw.gif
King Eugene
QUOTE(damarvelous1 @ Feb 4 2009, 07:28 PM) [snapback]423786[/snapback]
I dont agree with the notion that fighters shouldn't lift weights. Alot of elite fighters from our era used weights in the workouts.

Roy Jones Jr.
Manny Pacquiao
Kosta Tszyu
Ricky Hatton
You guys do know you can still lift weights without putting on weight, Right?

Great examples!

Hell Mackie has all his fighters that he work with do weight training and I haven't seen it effect any of them in a negative way.
Brad
QUOTE(3King3 @ Feb 5 2009, 10:26 AM) [snapback]423807[/snapback]
Hell Mackie has all his fighters that he work with do weight training and I haven't seen it effect any of them in a negative way.


the same Mackie Shilstone who had Michael Spinks move from light heavyweight to heavyweight and beat Larry Holmes, the man who had defended his heavyweight title more than anyone else besides the Brown Bomber. Spinks had to use weight training to get up to 200lbs and come fight time he was pushing Holmes around.

Mackie also took Roy to heavyweight using weight training methods and I just couldn't see where the weights hindered RJ's performance.

Mackie also took a fat Riddick Bowe and using weight training methods brough his weight down for two title defenses.

Mackie took a 41 year old career middleweight in Bernard Hopkins and using weight training methods took him to the undisputed light heavyweight championship.

But hey, I guess maybe those amazing performances didn't really happen afterall and it is just a conspiracy to turn boxers into body builders....
King Eugene
QUOTE(Brad @ Feb 4 2009, 08:54 PM) [snapback]423819[/snapback]
But hey, I guess maybe those amazing performances didn't really happen afterall and it is just a conspiracy to turn boxers into body builders....

laugh.gif
Brad
QUOTE(Spyder @ Feb 4 2009, 10:34 PM) [snapback]423717[/snapback]
Boxing, unlike other sports, doesn't have advancement in equipment to help performance...they don't have juiced up golf balls to help their drives go farther. It's just you and the guy across the ring...


i don't know of any boxers to use it, but they have CAT scanning technology that somehow can tell a fighter what his best weight is to fight at. And they also have them new everlast shoes thats uses some fancy rubber technology that increases traction on moist or damp ring surfaces. Roberto Duran may have been finished back in 1983 if they were using the thumbless boxing gloves we have now, remember he thumbed Davey Moore in their fight that resurrected his career.

And then we have the all important advances in training ideology that not many old school fighters were priveleged enough to know about, the effective use of weight training, it can mean the difference between getting pushed around or doing the pushing around.
Brad
QUOTE(Spyder @ Feb 4 2009, 10:34 PM) [snapback]423717[/snapback]
Take Sugar Ray Robinson...let him train in the 1940's...and put him in the ring with ANYONE that has access to this "advancement" in man, and he would whoop the shit out of him.

and here I was thinking they were calling Sugar Ray Robinson the best pound for pound boxer just because he was a great person.......

Sugar Ray had 200 fights, taking rematches into consideration lets say he fought 150 different people. It might be a better idea to think about how many of those 150 boxers can get put in the ring with someone who has access to this advancement in man and have a good hard think about the ass whooping that them old timers would get. William Joppy could probably take out 100 of them...
Brad
QUOTE(JonnyBlaze @ Feb 4 2009, 05:48 PM) [snapback]423706[/snapback]
I used to do weights too and it held me back..Do you and Brad consider punching with 16 oz. gloves on weight training too??

Holy is my favorite fighter still alive and is in my top 3 all time favorites with Archie and Sugar Ray Robinson..I know and knew Holy used weights..Holy was actually one of the first boxers to start using more modern methods of training..


no I wouldn't consider it weight training. It is a very light weight and the resistance isn't high. Mayweather punches with light dumbells. I'd been told that punching with bigger dumbells can have a bad effect on the shoulders and rotator cuff.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(Fitz @ Feb 4 2009, 08:44 PM) [snapback]423788[/snapback]
That's the problem, you can actually do resistance exercises with dumbells. Johnny and his trainer don't know this though and think it's wrong.

I'll take my trainers advice who was trained by a great fighter(Tony Zale) and another guy who was trained by a great trainer(Doc Kearns)..So I'd listen to his advice over anyone on here..He has also trained with Joe Frazier,sparred and trained with Hagler,trained with Pryor,Duran,and quite a few other guys..

I may be saying it's wrong but I really don't care since I do what I do and anyone of ya can do what you do..If it works for you,cool..Resistant exercises are good and I do quite a few of em..
Brad
QUOTE(JonnyBlaze @ Feb 4 2009, 04:45 PM) [snapback]423696[/snapback]
Brad,all this weight lifting talk is stupid..Look at shoulder muscles in Larry Holmes or Dempsey and compare them to Tyson or Lacy..The shoulder is tight and compact(like Mosley)..Dempsey's shoulder muscles are going into his bicep muscle just about..

BigG knows what he's talking about when it comes to Ali..How the hell can someone rate Foreman over Ali??Ali was in the best era of heavyweight boxing..If ya can pick someone over Ali,I think Louis is the only guy..Watch Joe Louis and watch Ray Robinson and tell me if ya see a big different in style(not speed or power)..There isn't much difference at all..

Lacy I can't say anything, but maybe if Mosley and Tyson didn't lift weights they could have been something....oops LOL. Larry Holmes was beaten up by a weight lifting light heavyweight in Michael Spinks!

Ali was in the best era of heavyweight boxing..............and??? What era was Joe Frazier, Sonny Liston, Ken Norton and George Foreman in, all guys who I think are better than Ali. Shit, Ken Norton beat Ali in three fights that I watched. Joe Frazier beat Ali in two of the fights I watched and with bad cataracts in his eye. A Joe Frazier with bad health beat your #1 heavyweight, it was only after Joe fought Foreman that he slowed down to the point where Ali could be competitive against him. If Ali was #1, then why was he so scared of Liston in the rematch that he postponed the fight when his spy's found out that Liston was in his best shape ever, and postponed it to a date where he could get his goons to visit Liston beforehand and tell him to fall from a PHANTOM punch? Sonny Liston was over 40 years old at that time, its known that he lied about his age. Ali won the first fight mostly due to Liston underestimating him. Or Maybe Floyd Patterson was right and Liston did in fact throw not just one but both of the fights with Ali. Patterson went twelve rounds with Ali with a bad back injury but couldn't last 2 rounds with Liston in two fights combined. If I was Ali I would have paid Liston to take a dive too, especially given the fact that Ali was beaten by a no name light heavweight in his fight before Liston and got a gift decision, the writing was on the wall. Who was that no name fellow again who was on his way to knocking Ali out before the glove controversy? Thats right, Henry Cooper, the Henry Cooper who said “If Mr. Liston approached me on the street, I would walk the other way.” Fixed fights, cheating during fights, shit how many times has the so called greatest resorted to methods other than boxing to win. All that witch doctor shit before fighting Foreman was the work of a scared man.

George Foreman made a huge error in startegy when fighting Ali in their one and only fight, do you really think that a professional boxer on his level would make the same mistake if they rematched. Foreman DESTROYED Frazier and Norton and both of those guys whooped Ali. I know styles makes fights but so does skills.

Didn't Ali duck Zora Folley until he was past his prime at 35 years old. Oh well, lets just give Ali the credit for it, I don't think 35 is old for a heavyweight, or 38 for that matter. Vitali Klitschko is 38. Where do you rate Trevor Berbick and Larry Holmes on a top heavyweight list?
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(Fitz @ Feb 4 2009, 11:33 PM) [snapback]423841[/snapback]
Haha, way to ignore everything Brad said and even some stuff I said earlier.

So Holyfield is wrong with the way he trains? Brad mentioned some modern great fighters who used weights, lol.

I like Brad's arguments and I think he has a really good knowledge of that..It's obvious he is not just some weight lifter trying to defend his work out and Brad knows a lot about what he is talking about..Thanks for the comments Brad..I've never seen ya around here but ya should come on more..
Spyder
QUOTE(Brad @ Feb 4 2009, 09:08 PM) [snapback]423824[/snapback]
i don't know of any boxers to use it, but they have CAT scanning technology that somehow can tell a fighter what his best weight is to fight at. And they also have them new everlast shoes thats uses some fancy rubber technology that increases traction on moist or damp ring surfaces. Roberto Duran may have been finished back in 1983 if they were using the thumbless boxing gloves we have now, remember he thumbed Davey Moore in their fight that resurrected his career.

And then we have the all important advances in training ideology that not many old school fighters were priveleged enough to know about, the effective use of weight training, it can mean the difference between getting pushed around or doing the pushing around.

I clearly said without cheating.

QUOTE(Brad @ Feb 4 2009, 09:19 PM) [snapback]423826[/snapback]
and here I was thinking they were calling Sugar Ray Robinson the best pound for pound boxer just because he was a great person.......

Sugar Ray had 200 fights, taking rematches into consideration lets say he fought 150 different people. It might be a better idea to think about how many of those 150 boxers can get put in the ring with someone who has access to this advancement in man and have a good hard think about the ass whooping that them old timers would get. William Joppy could probably take out 100 of them...

Yeah, William Joppy was such a badass that he couldn't last 12 with a welterweight. rolleyes_anim.gif
JonnyBlaze
Holmes is in the top 10 for sure of heavyweights..Ali was better than Frazier,Norton,Foreman,and Liston..I don't know how you could say Frazier is better than Ali..Norton isn't given the credit he deserves..He is a great fighter and a awesome guy to meet..I got to talk to him for a hour straight in person..We had a for real stare down too(but as a joke)..hahaha..He is a funny ass dude..

I like Brad's points but I don't agree with him on much..Spyder and Steve see things more like I do on these subjects..
BigG
Brad, are you foreal when you say Foreman was greater than Ali? Ali was past his prime AND STILL dominated and KO'd Foreman. Come on, man. Ali is at least a top 2 HW with Joe Louis. Norton on the other hand, now that guy beat Ali at least 2/3..AT LEAST. Norton was very underrated and IMO a top 20 HW of all time.
Snoop
QUOTE(Spyder @ Feb 4 2009, 05:21 AM) [snapback]423637[/snapback]
laugh.gif

Lifting weights doesn't make you a better boxer...

Here answer me this...

Does running faster make you a better fighter?
Can the ability to jump higher win you a fight?
Swimming faster?
Lifting heavier?
Throwing further?

What does any of that have to do with fighting?

The ability to fight has not changed since the modern-era began...a jab is still a jab, a hook is still a hook...fighters still only enter the ring with only two hands. The idea that just because something is newer it is better...that's pretty naive.


Actually I would say running faster does make you a better fighter. Not necessarily because you can run faster, but because it enhances your leg muscles and expands your lungs. When I trained, my coach would have us run 5 miles untimed, then timed so we would improve our lung capacity.

Swimming is also a great all around workout. Strengthens back and leg muscles and teaches you how to relax. Most fighters with an injury swim instead. I know Juan Diaz swims in his regiment.

I don't know about jumping higher but I noticed that I could jump higher after a few years of training. Is that still the same? laugh.gif

Lifting weights is in a different category than these workouts because these are, I'm not sure of the terminology, but calisthenic workouts that build endurance muscles rather than lifting weights. But also I think what Fitz is on point. There are very distinct types of workouts with weights, from building, toning to resistance. I don't think when you hear, "weights", you think body building.
Snoop
QUOTE(Fitz @ Feb 5 2009, 01:44 AM) [snapback]423788[/snapback]
That's the problem, you can actually do resistance exercises with dumbells. Johnny and his trainer don't know this though and think it's wrong.

This is very true. Fighters tend to (or should), do weight lifting with very low weight but high repetitions, or resistance training. I personally don't like weights and use tubing instead.
Brad
QUOTE(Spyder @ Feb 5 2009, 12:55 PM) [snapback]423850[/snapback]
I clearly said without cheating.
Yeah, William Joppy was such a badass that he couldn't last 12 with a welterweight. rolleyes_anim.gif

are you calling Tito Trinidad a welterweight? Well if we are going to call him a welterweight even though the fight was sanctioned at middleweight limit then with that thinking does that make Sugar Ray a lightweight? I wouldn't say that.

There is nobody disputing that Sugar Ray Robinson is the greatest ever, so it doesn't mean much to mention his name when comparing old and modern training techniques, the guy was special, an exceptional athlete.
Brad
QUOTE(JonnyBlaze @ Feb 5 2009, 01:02 PM) [snapback]423853[/snapback]
I don't know how you could say Frazier is better than Ali..Norton isn't given the credit he deserves..He is a great fighter and a awesome guy to meet..I got to talk to him for a hour straight in person..We had a for real stare down too(but as a joke)..hahaha..He is a funny ass dude..

I like Brad's points but I don't agree with him on much..Spyder and Steve see things more like I do on these subjects..


Because in my eyes (both of them work, unlike poor Joe Frazier who had cataracts in his left eye and still kicked ass), Smokin Joe smoked Ali in two fights out of there three, and despite the cataracts, if his trainer forced him to finish the third fight like Ali's trainer had to make him do when he asked to quit on his stool, well the fight was so close maybe Joe would have won. Being the second person to have arguably beat Ali in all three fights but only get rewarded for one of them. I kind of despise Ali for his racial insults to Frazier too, "he's a different type of negro than what I am, he comes from them slaves, he's a gorilla" What a punk that guy was.

Are you ready to give Norton the credit he deserves and say he was better than Ali, he didn't have a better career but was he not the better fighter? Did he not arguably beat this self proclaimed Greatest three out of three times? Thats awesome that you got to meet him, I was reading that he won an award before for being a positive thinker. He was in a bad accident and the doctors told him he wouldn't ever walk or talk again. That attitude didn't fit in with his positive thinking, so he put his mind to it and as he says, he can now walk, talk and chew gum clapping.gif
Brad
QUOTE(biggeorge89 @ Feb 5 2009, 01:05 PM) [snapback]423855[/snapback]
Brad, are you foreal when you say Foreman was greater than Ali? Ali was past his prime AND STILL dominated and KO'd Foreman. Come on, man. Ali is at least a top 2 HW with Joe Louis. Norton on the other hand, now that guy beat Ali at least 2/3..AT LEAST. Norton was very underrated and IMO a top 20 HW of all time.

Ali vs Foreman was not domination, that was just poor strategy on Georges part, he didn't get tired from being dominated you know. Did Lamon Brewster dominate Wladimir Klitschko too?

Putting Ali and past prime in the same sentence is very fitting. Archie Moore was how old when Ali fought him? It is a known fact that Sonny Liston lied about his age and it is speculated that he may have been 40+ when he first fought Ali. Not old enough to stop Team Clay from fixing their fights though...Cleveland Williams was past his prime and softened up courtesy of 2 Sonny Liston knockouts. Floyd Patterson was past his prime, and to no surprise another fighter to have been softened up by Liston before Ali would dare fight him. Ernie Terrell was considered past his prime before Ali would fight him. Jimmy Ellis had to be softened up by Joe Frazier first. Zora Folley was softenup up by (once again) Sonny Liston and was considered out of his prime. Joe Frazier had to twice take care of Oscar Bonavena while Ali waited for Oscar to get old. Bob Foster was out of his prime and already knocked out by Joe Frazier in 2 rounds. Earnie Shavers was out of his prime and had been knocked out 3 times already.

Can you see the trend with Ali handpicking opponents? Looks to me like Team Clay wanted to always get opponents who were on the downside of their careers and who had suffered knockout losses already (preferably to Liston or Frazier because they really did lasting damage). Undefeated fighters Ali fought were Frazier, Foreman, Spinks and Holmes. When up against guys who hadn't been knocked out already he lost.

I guess some people like Ali and some people like Frazier or Foreman better, just like some people like Cory Spinks and some people like Shane Mosley better laugh.gif

BigG
QUOTE
Can you see the trend with Ali handpicking opponents? Looks to me like Team Clay wanted to always get opponents who were on the downside of their careers and who had suffered knockout losses already (preferably to Liston or Frazier because they really did lasting damage). Undefeated fighters Ali fought were Frazier, Foreman, Spinks and Holmes. When up against guys who hadn't been knocked out already he lost.


Right because Frazier, Liston, Foreman were clearly on the downside of their careers when Ali fought them.
Brad
QUOTE(biggeorge89 @ Feb 5 2009, 03:36 PM) [snapback]423876[/snapback]
Right because Frazier, Liston, Foreman were clearly on the downside of their careers when Ali fought them.

Frazier wasn't when they first fought and look at what happened. Have you seen Foreman vs Frazier I? Between the beat down to Foreman and having cataracts (something that impairs your vision), Frazier was on the downside.

Liston was over 40 years old and Team Clay still fixed both fights. It was a draw when Liston quit against Ali the first time around, not bad for a 40 year old, but who knows, making the fight close may have been part of the script in that fix. Team Clay preferred to wait for Liston and Frazier to wear down all the noteworthy fighters before they even came under consideration to fight Ali.

As i said, Foreman had bad strategy which I'd bet he would have done something to correct if they ever rematched. Probably would have involved staying out of Africa and keeping away from witch doctors. Gee Ali stooped to some really low levels in "winning"

But we agree that besides those three guys then the other good fighters were past there prime and/or vicious ko victims?
BigG
What strategy would Foreman had used against Ali in the rematch.

Foreman was getting hit with counter right hands in the middle of the ring in round 1 while he was pressuring.
King Eugene
QUOTE(snoopnick @ Feb 5 2009, 12:10 AM) [snapback]423859[/snapback]
I don't know about jumping higher but I noticed that I could jump higher after a few years of training. Is that still the same? laugh.gif

You went from touching the nets to touching the backboard? LOL just messing with ya.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(Brad @ Feb 5 2009, 02:58 AM) [snapback]423883[/snapback]
Frazier wasn't when they first fought and look at what happened. Have you seen Foreman vs Frazier I? Between the beat down to Foreman and having cataracts (something that impairs your vision), Frazier was on the downside.

Liston was over 40 years old and Team Clay still fixed both fights. It was a draw when Liston quit against Ali the first time around, not bad for a 40 year old, but who knows, making the fight close may have been part of the script in that fix. Team Clay preferred to wait for Liston and Frazier to wear down all the noteworthy fighters before they even came under consideration to fight Ali.

As i said, Foreman had bad strategy which I'd bet he would have done something to correct if they ever rematched. Probably would have involved staying out of Africa and keeping away from witch doctors. Gee Ali stooped to some really low levels in "winning"

But we agree that besides those three guys then the other good fighters were past there prime and/or vicious ko victims?

I'm with BigGeorge..Frazier was fighting a very ring rusty Ali the first fight..Brad,I think you have something against Ali because you are making excuses..Also,Archie was 46-47 when he fought Ali and was 43 when he fought Durelle(3King3)..I wish we had some footage of Archie in his prime years..Frazier was younger than Ali by 2 years..Foreman was at his best when he fought Ali..

Also,it was really awesome to meet Norton..He made sure to keep reminding me to make a balance between my boxing and school..Before I left,I told him I really hoped we'd meet again and he told me that we would some day..He is definitely one of the coolest boxers I've ever met..
Spyder
QUOTE(Brad @ Feb 5 2009, 12:21 AM) [snapback]423863[/snapback]
There is nobody disputing that Sugar Ray Robinson is the greatest ever, so it doesn't mean much to mention his name when comparing old and modern training techniques, the guy was special, an exceptional athlete.

Sure it does...SRR fought and trained back in the stone ages. Man had just learned to use tools and start fire...it's not documented whether they developed opposable thumbs at that point, but Sugar Ray was one of the first to start walking upright.
D-MARV
QUOTE(Brad @ Feb 5 2009, 01:58 AM) [snapback]423883[/snapback]
Frazier wasn't when they first fought and look at what happened. Have you seen Foreman vs Frazier I? Between the beat down to Foreman and having cataracts (something that impairs your vision), Frazier was on the downside.

Liston was over 40 years old and Team Clay still fixed both fights. It was a draw when Liston quit against Ali the first time around, not bad for a 40 year old, but who knows, making the fight close may have been part of the script in that fix. Team Clay preferred to wait for Liston and Frazier to wear down all the noteworthy fighters before they even came under consideration to fight Ali.

As i said, Foreman had bad strategy which I'd bet he would have done something to correct if they ever rematched. Probably would have involved staying out of Africa and keeping away from witch doctors. Gee Ali stooped to some really low levels in "winning"

But we agree that besides those three guys then the other good fighters were past there prime and/or vicious ko victims?

Brad, You're full of shit!

Liston was 32 years old when he fought Ali and was thoroughly dominated. Hell, the first fight he tried to cheat and still got his ass beat. If you don't think Ali was one of the all time greats then that's your decision. But, if you are going to try to degrade his resume then that's a battle that you surely will not win. Ali has one of the best resumes in boxing.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE(Brad @ Feb 5 2009, 06:35 AM) [snapback]423875[/snapback]
Can you see the trend with Ali handpicking opponents? Looks to me like Team Clay wanted to always get opponents who were on the downside of their careers and who had suffered knockout losses already (preferably to Liston or Frazier because they really did lasting damage). Undefeated fighters Ali fought were Frazier, Foreman, Spinks and Holmes. When up against guys who hadn't been knocked out already he lost.


Damm Brad you are talking sense here. I despise Clay myself but that is a convincing argument you are making. Then again when the Atlanta Olympics was on I said Ali was doing the shuffle again with the flame lighting laugh.gif .
STEVENSKI
QUOTE(JonnyBlaze @ Feb 5 2009, 07:55 AM) [snapback]423905[/snapback]
I'm with BigGeorge..Frazier was fighting a very ring rusty Ali the first fight..Brad,I think you have something against Ali because you are making excuses..


He was not Ali had had his tune ups & had kept in shape during his exile with plenty of sparring. Prime vs prime Frazier would have whooped him good. Why would Clay not fight Frazier before his exile when Frazier was calling him out & the #1 contender? Because Clay was a cat thats why.
Brad
QUOTE(damarvelous1 @ Feb 5 2009, 10:45 PM) [snapback]423923[/snapback]
Brad, You're full of shit!

Liston was 32 years old when he fought Ali and was thoroughly dominated. Hell, the first fight he tried to cheat and still got his ass beat. If you don't think Ali was one of the all time greats then that's your decision. But, if you are going to try to degrade his resume then that's a battle that you surely will not win. Ali has one of the best resumes in boxing.

go and read about it, its a very known fact that Listons real age was unknown. Opinion is one thing, but to dismiss a known fact is just mind boggling!!!

They say at the time of Listons last fight, he claimed to be 38 but most people in the know estimate his age to have been more like 50.

Seems like downgrading Ali's resume is proving to be a much easier job than upgrading it laugh.gif Oscar DelaHoya also has one of the best resumes in boxing dntknw.gif
Brad
QUOTE(JonnyBlaze @ Feb 5 2009, 04:55 PM) [snapback]423905[/snapback]
Brad,I think you have something against Ali because you are making excuses..Also,Archie was 46-47 when he fought Ali and was 43 when he fought Durelle(3King3)..I wish we had some footage of Archie in his prime years..Frazier was younger than Ali by 2 years..Foreman was at his best when he fought Ali..

if i'm the only one with excuses we'd best leave Trevor Berbick and Larry Holmes out of this, i'd hate to drag anyone into making excuses also laugh.gif
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(Brad @ Feb 5 2009, 08:57 PM) [snapback]424030[/snapback]
if i'm the only one with excuses we'd best leave Trevor Berbick and Larry Holmes out of this, i'd hate to drag anyone into making excuses also laugh.gif

Ali looked like a grandpa when walking into the ring to fight Berbick..

Liston's exact age may be unknown just like Archie's age was while he was fighting("I was born 3 years old")..Archie's age was verified though..If you or anyone else doesn't know Liston's age exactly,don't spit bullshit that he was over 40 when you and me can't be accurate on it..I know you want to discredit Ali very badly but the Liston comments aren't helping you..I myself believe that Liston was 32 when he fought Ali though..
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE(JonnyBlaze @ Feb 5 2009, 09:07 PM) [snapback]424035[/snapback]
Ali looked like a grandpa when walking into the ring to fight Berbick..

Liston's exact age may be unknown just like Archie's age was while he was fighting("I was born 3 years old")..Archie's age was verified though..If you or anyone else doesn't know Liston's age exactly,don't spit bullshit that he was over 40 when you and me can't be accurate on it..I know you want to discredit Ali very badly but the Liston comments aren't helping you..I myself believe that Liston was 32 when he fought Ali though..


I'm sorta in between you and Brad. I doubt he was in his forties but damn he looked a little too old for 32 as well. i'd pick mid to late 30's.

I read an interview last year with trainer (I wish I could remember his name) maybe you've read the same interview Jonny a Vegas guy back in the day who knew Liston well and he swore black and blue that Liston was instructed to throw both fights and that if he'd been let off the leash woulda beat Ali for sure.

I'm not prepared to go that far but if Henry Cooper had Ali in a world of trouble I don't see why Liston wouldn't have. I think Sonny was a very underrated champ and a bad bad man in his own right.

Personally although it's unfashionable to say, but I like a prime and focussed (not always a given) Lennox Lewis over Ali, I think he had all the tools to nullify Ali's strengths. Maybe not the most exciting fight but a real interesting chess match.

JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(the ollie reed fan club @ Feb 5 2009, 10:46 PM) [snapback]424050[/snapback]
I'm sorta in between you and Brad. I doubt he was in his forties but damn he looked a little too old for 32 as well. i'd pick mid to late 30's.

I read an interview last year with trainer (I wish I could remember his name) maybe you've read the same interview Jonny a Vegas guy back in the day who knew Liston well and he swore black and blue that Liston was instructed to throw both fights and that if he'd been let off the leash woulda beat Ali for sure.

I'm not prepared to go that far but if Henry Cooper had Ali in a world of trouble I don't see why Liston wouldn't have. I think Sonny was a very underrated champ and a bad bad man in his own right.

Personally although it's unfashionable to say, but I like a prime and focussed (not always a given) Lennox Lewis over Ali, I think he had all the tools to nullify Ali's strengths. Maybe not the most exciting fight but a real interesting chess match.

Yeah,actually when I think about it more I'd go with mid 30s..32 is more accurate than early/mid 40s though..I highly doubt he was in his 40s in either of those fights..

I have read a article like the one you are talking about Ollie..Actually my trainer(he knew guys surrounding this fight) said Liston had to throw the second fight because of the mob..Liston got killed by a dude in the mob because he was about to come out and tell what was going on but got whacked..Soon after,everyone came out like LaMotta and said they had to throw fights because of the mob..I don't think he threw the first fight but it has always been debated about the second..I'm in the middle about it all,it's hard to decide..

Archie never hooked up with the mob and because of that he had to wait 10 long years to become champ..After he became champ,he wasn't excited or anything and just said "why be excited??I would of been champ 10 years ago"--atleast something very similar so it might not be direct quotes..
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE(JonnyBlaze @ Feb 5 2009, 09:56 PM) [snapback]424053[/snapback]
Yeah,actually when I think about it more I'd go with mid 30s..32 is more accurate than early/mid 40s though..I highly doubt he was in his 40s in either of those fights..

I have read a article like the one you are talking about Ollie..Actually my trainer(he knew guys surrounding this fight) said Liston had to throw the second fight because of the mob..Liston got killed by a dude in the mob because he was about to come out and tell what was going on but got whacked..Soon after,everyone came out like LaMotta and said they had to throw fights because of the mob..I don't think he threw the first fight but it has always been debated about the second..I'm in the middle about it all,it's hard to decide..

Archie never hooked up with the mob and because of that he had to wait 10 long years to become champ..After he became champ,he wasn't excited or anything and just said "why be excited??I would of been champ 10 years ago"--atleast something very similar so it might not be direct quotes..


I'd also be interested to hear what you think about Lewis V. Ali. I think Lennox's jab has a big say in that one.
D-MARV
QUOTE(Brad @ Feb 5 2009, 07:44 PM) [snapback]424024[/snapback]
go and read about it, its a very known fact that Listons real age was unknown. Opinion is one thing, but to dismiss a known fact is just mind boggling!!!

They say at the time of Listons last fight, he claimed to be 38 but most people in the know estimate his age to have been more like 50.

Seems like downgrading Ali's resume is proving to be a much easier job than upgrading it laugh.gif Oscar DelaHoya also has one of the best resumes in boxing dntknw.gif

You sound like a complete idiot right here.

You are telling me that Liston was not 32 when he fought Ali when in reality, You have NO CLUE what age Liston really was. Then you go on to say "THEY" say Liston... Who the fuck is they? You then sum it all up by comparing Ali's resume to De La Hoya's. Ali fought and defeated other great fighters. Oscar just fought them. Come on man... You would get alot more respect if you just came out and said I hate Ali. At least the other hater (Stevenski) just comes out and say "I Hated Ali."

Brad
QUOTE(damarvelous1 @ Feb 6 2009, 12:07 PM) [snapback]424057[/snapback]
You are telling me that Liston was not 32 when he fought Ali when in reality, You have NO CLUE what age Liston really was. Then you go on to say "THEY" say Liston... Who the fuck is they? You then sum it all up by comparing Ali's resume to De La Hoya's. Ali fought and defeated other great fighters. Oscar just fought them. Come on man... You would get alot more respect if you just came out and said I hate Ali. At least the other hater (Stevenski) just comes out and say "I Hated Ali."

i'm saying that Listons age was unknown, you my friend were the one who said Liston was 32, I think Liston was over 40. Exact age unknown, yeah I have no clue about the exact age, but how the fuck do you know his exact age when it is widely reported that his age was unknown and he was no where near as young as he claimed? No one knows Listons exact age....apparantly no one but you, I guess we are all the idiots and your the smart one hey? LMAO

Who are they? Turn your Ali propaganda DVD's off and take your hand off your prick and go do your own fucking research. If I know that i'm reading something credible I don't focus too much on the authors names. You really won't have to look far to find many stories and articles from people who know that Liston was older than he claimed.

Oscar beat Julio Cesar Chavez and Pernell Whitaker.......I said nothing but you want your comparison? They were also out of their prime laugh.gif

Me admitting I hate Ali is like you admitting you love him and tug yourself to his highlight DVD's, you go first laugh.gif
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(the ollie reed fan club @ Feb 5 2009, 10:59 PM) [snapback]424054[/snapback]
I'd also be interested to hear what you think about Lewis V. Ali. I think Lennox's jab has a big say in that one.

I'd go with Ali based on speed and footwork..Lennox wouldn't get away with having his hands down at any time againt Ali..This fight would be awesome to see whos jab wins the jabbing contest..Ali had a really fast and accurate jab while Lennox had a strong accurate jab..Lennox would have Liston attributes in his jab so I might have to go with Ali even though Lennox would make his jab a big factor still..Liston sometimes would pump his jab but Lennox doesn't..If Ali tried the same strategy he did on Foreman,Lennox would whoop him since he is more precise and wouldn't allow himself to get too carried away if he saw what he was doing wasn't working..Lennox would have a reach advantage though adding more of an advantage for Lennox's jab..Ali would make Lennox look stupid with his foot work,no doubt..Lennox would need to also make his uppercut a factor in this fight in my opinion..It'd be a sweet fight but I'd go with Ali..

Ali would of been one of the smartest guys had he kept with Archie training him but he wasn't disciplined enough to stay with him..Archie would make you do bitch work like washing floors and dishes to get you more disciplined but Ali wasn't down with that stuff since he said it had nothing to do with boxing,even though it really did and would of helped him..Ali would of ended up with a lot more KO's than he did also..Archie knew how to punch(power can be enhanced greatly if you know the proper way to punch,many don't know how to and don't develop it like they could have)..Dundee has nothing on Archie when it comes to training..I got respect for Angelo but he isn't a top 10-15 all time great trainer..

This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2014 Invision Power Services, Inc.