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Full Version: THE P4P TITLE SHOULD BE VACANT!
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Sugar Q
Even if (and thats a big if) Pacquiao beats Hatton didn't PBF and Collazo (anyone who's seen the fight knows) already do it? And doesn't the Pacman have unfinished business with Marquez? Don't we need to see what's going to happen in the Marquez/Diaz fight? Isn't a Pacquiao/Nate Campbell fight highly warranted with Nate being the top dawg that was overstepped at 135? Tell me what you think guys, keep it clean. No biting smile.gif
JD
P4P isn’t anything more than a measure of which fighter is the best in the world. It is somewhat quantifiable, but also backed by opinion as well as fact.

I don’t really think it could or should ever be vacant…at least based upon my criteria. I use the standard Sugar Ray Robinson formula that simply looked at “if this guy were the same weight as that guy, and his talent / ability / attributes scaled in a linear fashion, who would win?”
thehype
I don't have a problem with giving it to someone like Pacquiao. I mean, some of those same questions you brought up about Pacquiao can be asked about Floyd. Even though Floyd beat De La Hoya, didn't Shane Mosley already do it? Doesn't Floyd have some unstarted business with Miguel Cotto and Shane Mosley? Isn't a Mayweather/Williams fight highly warranted with Williams being the top dog that was overstepped at 147?

There's just a lot of variables that go into it. That's why, personally, I like to see guys actually take the time to clean out a division. Remember when that was in style? LOL. Think about it...when was the last time an elite fighter actually did clean out a division that had other elite fighters? And no...Calzaghes dominance of the weak super middleweight division doesn't count in my book...not when Jeff Lacy was one of the champions. LOL.

Cleaning out a division with legitimate opposition, in my opinion, is far more impressive than jumping up in weight (which seems to be the new fad these days).
jlupi
It is somewhat quantifiable, but also backed by opinion as well as fact.
>>

I would go further and state its purely opinion
JD
QUOTE(jlupi @ Feb 27 2009, 11:35 AM) [snapback]426501[/snapback]
I would go further and state its purely opinion


I dunno. Since it is quantifiable on some level, and you use a lot of facts to develop the rationale, I think there is more to it than pure opinion. But yeah...opinion is a big part of it.
Sugar Q
QUOTE(thehype @ Feb 27 2009, 11:18 AM) [snapback]426499[/snapback]
I don't have a problem with giving it to someone like Pacquiao. I mean, some of those same questions you brought up about Pacquiao can be asked about Floyd. Even though Floyd beat De La Hoya, didn't Shane Mosley already do it? Doesn't Floyd have some unstarted business with Miguel Cotto and Shane Mosley? Isn't a Mayweather/Williams fight highly warranted with Williams being the top dog that was overstepped at 147?

There's just a lot of variables that go into it. That's why, personally, I like to see guys actually take the time to clean out a division. Remember when that was in style? LOL. Think about it...when was the last time an elite fighter actually did clean out a division that had other elite fighters? And no...Calzaghes dominance of the weak super middleweight division doesn't count in my book...not when Jeff Lacy was one of the champions. LOL.

Cleaning out a division with legitimate opposition, in my opinion, is far more impressive than jumping up in weight (which seems to be the new fad these days).



Very true Hype BUT Mayweather out and out challenged Shane and Cotto and Shane and Cotto out and out turned him down so I don't blame PBF for those fights not happening (although I'm a HUGE Mosley fan). I agree with the cleaning out the division thing. I'm also a Marvin Hagler fan smile.gif
thehype
QUOTE(Sugar Q @ Feb 27 2009, 12:24 PM) [snapback]426507[/snapback]
Very true Hype BUT Mayweather out and out challenged Shane and Cotto and Shane and Cotto out and out turned him down so I don't blame PBF for those fights not happening (although I'm a HUGE Mosley fan). I agree with the cleaning out the division thing. I'm also a Marvin Hagler fan smile.gif


I'm not blaming him for those fights not happening either...but I'm also not going to automatically give him credit for victories that never happened. I'm just saying, it seems like lately, we as boxing fans tend to give way too much credit to a guy for simply getting one win over another particular fighter. I think it's far more impressive for a fighter to prove he's really the man in a particular division by beating every and all challengers in that division. Instead of jumping up to 154 for the big money fight against DLH and then ultimately "retiring" in hopes of waiting around for another 20+ million dollar payday, I think it would have been far more impressive for Floyd to go ahead and whip Margarito, Cotto, Mosley AND PWill to prove he's really the man at 147. Same with Pacquiao. Instead of chasing the big money fight against DLH at 147, I think it would have been far more impressive for him to stay at 135 and whip up on Diaz, Campbell, Marquez again and even Valero. Instead, he's opted to take a big money fight with Hatton at 140...which is cool...I can accept that, but if he's going to fight at 140, then prove you're really the man there by also beating the likes of Holt, Bradley, Kotelnik or even Guzman. Will he do that? Probably not as he'll likely face Mayweather and if not Mayweather, then probably Mosley. But heck...is Mosley even the best guy to take on at welterweight? I bet Cotto doesn't think so.

I'm just saying, boxing is getting so bad now that we have to wait far too long to get to see good, competitive fights between guys who are still in their prime. I think part of the reason why is because too many fighters are chasing after and holding out for the big money fights and as such, they're too busy jumping up and down in weight. I mainly blame HBO for this as they're the ones that allow the big name fighters to do this. Not only that, but HBO also places less emphasis on the importance of sanctioning body titles and a fighter really proving that they're the best in a particular division. If Pacquiao beats Hatton, they'll automatically crown him the best of the best at 140 and as such, they'll give him a pass and let him pick and choose whoever he wants to fight. But is he really the best of the best at 140? For all we know, Timothy Bradly or Kendall Holt might be able to smoke Hatton even easier than Pacquiao might be able to...so maybe Pacquiao isn't the best and it would be nice to see him actually prove it against other opposition in the division.

I mean, why isn't Pavlik fighting Abraham or Sturm in his next fight instead of John Duddy?

Why hasn't Vernon Forrest fought since he beat Mora?

Why the heck has Winky Wright been sitting on the shelf for damn near 2 years?

Why does Winky get to come back and get the crack at Paul Williams despite not having fought in AGES and coming off a loss?

Why the hell did Antonio Tarver get the Dawson rematch before Glen Johnson?

Why Halle have to let a white man pop her to get an Oscar?

Why Denzel have to be crooked before he took it?

WHY????

Why, oh why?

Why they gotta do me like that?

Shout out to Jadakiss!

laugh.gif


BigG
LOL Hype...
Sugar Q
QUOTE(Fitz @ Feb 27 2009, 10:49 PM) [snapback]426529[/snapback]
Great post man, I agreed with every single thing you said. We were having this discussion with ATN in another thread, and I think you are absolutely right, when you say they place less emphasis on a guy proving to be the best in a certain division. These days all a fighter does is move up, beat a big name and he is the man. Like you I would have liked to have seen Pacquiao clean out 135, there were still some interesting fights there with a few different fighters, and like you if he wants to stay at 140, I want to see him fight other good 140 fighters and not just fighters that bring money, and that goes with any fighter, not just Pacquiao.
Cleaning out your division is underrated these days and showing longevity. Fighters like Hopkins and Tszyu who basically stayed there whole career at a particular weight to me demonstrates dedication, longevity and dominance for a long period of time, that is underrated and Haglar took this path as well.
I don't have a problem with a fighter moving weight if they cannot make weight, or they have cleaned out and moving onto bigger things, I also don't have a problem if a fighter moves a one off for a money fight, after all we are all human. I have a problem when fighters later in there career make a career on looking for fights that produce the most money, instead of facing all top contenders whether they bring money or not.



Although I agree with a lot of that boxing is a business also which is what's hurting the game but at the same time I would take the big money fights too if I were in their positions. PBF aint no Leonard or Hearns but he was the closest thing to it skillwise. Although we can't credit him with wins over Shane and Cotto apparently there was something that kept them from signing on the dotted line. Pacquiao you can't help but like but I cant consider him P4P unless he beats Hatton and then the Marquez/Diaz winner, then I would still like to see him fight a slick veteran like Campbell. Just my opinion, but I do understand saying he's the top guy but we better make him the top contender for P4P cause what happens if Hatton beats him?
BoxingStill#1
Its all about risk vs. money...................sad really....

I actually think Cotto for example, may lose to Marg again, and perhaps even Mosely

But I also think he has the style and tools to beat both PBF and Pacman.
kidbazooka1
Pacqiuao deserves the p4p spot in my opinion.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(BoxingStill#1 @ Feb 28 2009, 03:18 PM) [snapback]426561[/snapback]
Its all about risk vs. money...................sad really....

I actually think Cotto for example, may lose to Marg again, and perhaps even Mosely

But I also think he has the style and tools to beat both PBF and Pacman.

I don't think any guy who loses to Margarito would beat Floyd..Don't fuckin do this shit,for real..Before it was Floyd HAD to beat Margarito and now it's back to Cotto..Stupid shit if ya ask me..Once Cotto lost to Margarito it switch from Floyd having to have to beat Cotto to Margarito and now that Margarito got fucked up and exposed as a fraud,not Floyd has to beat Cotto..Margarito go exposed by Mosley,Floyd would have done the same to Margarito but wouldn't have KO'd or hurt him..

Everyone needs to get off Floyd's shit..I hate defending him but it's the truth..Floyd would be all your favorite fighters of today's era,so get over it..I bet you all wouldn't be betting against Floyd if the fight were to happen cause then you'd just turn out to look like fools(trust me,I've bet against Floyd before because of my hate for his personality)..You just feel stupid after ya go against him then he makes the guy you wanted to win look like garbage..Cotto wouldn't beat Floyd and no one else from 147 and down would either..The only guy I'd want to see Floyd fight today is Paul Williams because of his height,speed,and volume..Williams defense would get exposed against Floyd for sure..Cotto has already been exposed and Floyd would be landing uppercuts on him all day and night..If ape-man Margarito can land slow uppercuts on you,do you think you'll be able to defend against the lightning fast ones that Floyd would be throwing??
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(kidbazooka1 @ Feb 28 2009, 08:09 PM) [snapback]426566[/snapback]
Pacqiuao deserves the p4p spot in my opinion.

Agreed..Vacant P4P status??Just sounds dumb to me..That would say no one has great skills..Hell,I'd give Wlad. Klitchko or Chad Dawson P4P status before making it vacant..

BTW,Chad Dawson definitely has a real chance to be P4P in a few years..
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(Fitz @ Feb 28 2009, 09:09 PM) [snapback]426570[/snapback]
What a dumb thing to say, first off I would pick Mayweather over Cotto slightly, but it's all about styles making fights. Cotto would fair much much better against Mayweather than Margarito, and could make it close. If you reversed the order of Cotto-Mosley fights, Cotto-Margarito and Mosley-Margarito fights, you would probably say that nobody that lost to Margarito would beat Mosley.
By the way, I don't know where you are getting the idea from the bolded part. I don't see that at all anywhere. I don't see anybody now saying that Cotto is the man to beat for Mayweather, what a strange thing to say.

Then I don't know where you've been..I know you've been on here the last 2 years so I don't know how you missed it..First it was Floyd had to fight Cotto or he wasn't legit like everyone thinks,then it switched to Margarito..Now he brought Cotto up again..

Styles do make fights but what does Cotto or Margarito have to offer??Cotto definitely has more to offer and would make it a better fight but if Margarito was able to land 100% of his left uppercuts,do you think Floyd is going to miss??Trust me man,I am the last person to say if ---- beat ---- then he would beat -----..I've been bashing dudes on here the last few months for sayin shit like that..People get it twisted though..Floyd is vulnerable now if he comes back but if he never left,he'd be shuttin everyone's mouth..Remember though,I hate defending him but I can't deny the truth..

Ask everyone who fought tonight,they all would want Floyd..Marquez even said he is still P4P best even though he doesn't fight..
and the NEW
How do you judge P4P, if you are judging Pac as a 147lber, then no, at his current weight, P4P, he is not the best.

If it's just as far as competition and results over recent years, then yes, Pac is P4P best (though the JMM part will always be on the cards).

As for Mayweather V Mosley, Floyd offered Sugar the fight, but Sugar took a holiday, or am I mistaking what happened? That being said, I would LOVE to see the fight still.

STEVENSKI
QUOTE(Fitz @ Mar 1 2009, 10:23 PM) [snapback]426701[/snapback]
Mosley said after the Cargas fight that he is taking the rest of the year off to spend with the family and to fix a tooth. Suprise, surprise, Floyd called Shane out and offerted a fight for that year, lol. Everyone else can work the rest out, lol.



Of course. Shane ducked Floyd because Floyd "wanted" to fight Shane in a reasonable time frame knowing full well that Shane was not fighting for the rest of the year. Silly me I will remember this next time.
and the NEW
Ah k, couldn't remember exactly the sequence of events.

STEVENSKI
PBF is notorious for doing that. He waits until a fighter is not in a position to fight & then offers a fight & when the deal cannot be made he then claims he did all he could to make it happen. He is a fake as a $3 note & true fight fans see right through him even though any fight fan has to respect his skills they do not have to respect his attitude & behaviour.
and the NEW
No doubt, his attitude and behaviour is sickening!! Complete and utter flog.

But his boxing ability is supurb and he has a pretty good resume to boot, albeit, there are still challenges out there for him to take and he has not 'retired' yet, he will be back.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(Fitz @ Mar 1 2009, 03:57 AM) [snapback]426656[/snapback]
Last 2 years now is it? I know years ago people wanted Mayweather vs Cotto, I am arguing that you said people are now saying that Mayweather must beat Cotto AFTER he lost to Margarito. Since he lost to Margarito, nobody has been saying Mayweather must beat Cotto to prove he is the best. All they have said he must fight some legit welters.

Cotto has a lot more to offer than Margarito. Land 100% of his left uppercuts? Haha, what fight were you watching? Don't you remember early in the fight Margarito was only able to land to the body, he wasn't landing to the head all that much. Cotto was clearly winning early, and Margarito most certainly wasn't landing all of his uppercuts, lol. He only began to land midway through on a more regular basis to the head and broke Cotto down. I don't know where you got the idea he was landing every uppercut he threw.
One big difference from Margarito-Cotto to Mayweather-Cotto is that Cotto was fighting backwards against Margarito, he will be fighting his more natural coming forward fight with Mayweather which that in itself resembles nothing to measure the Margarito-Cotto by. Margarito brought non stop pressure and physical strength that broke Cotto down, which is nothing Mayweather will do. I think Mayweather wins, but I think Cotto can make it pretty close.

The first bold is not true..I wouldn't of posted what I said if someone had said that shit..The second bold--you are taking things too serious..It was a exaggeration..

I am not arguing that Cotto/Mayweather would be better than Mayweather/Margarito..I know it would be..
JonnyBlaze
Fitz,of course Margarito landed with the uppercut frequently late,but it takes time to figure out what works..Some guys can make adjustment if they are getting hit with the same punch,but Cotto didn't and kept getting hit with a left uppercut..Not even the right,but strictly the left..I think Cotto knows how to make adjustments fairly well but he had nothing for the left uppercut..It really had a lot to do with how he holds his hands IMO..

I also think you need to re-read what was said..

"Then I don't know where you've been..I know you've been on here the last 2 years so I don't know how you missed it..First it was Floyd had to fight Cotto or he wasn't legit like everyone thinks,then it switched to Margarito..Now he brought Cotto up again.."----That is the quote..When did I say everyone is saying he must now beat Cotto to prove he is the best??I said HE not everyone..If you seriously don't think what I just said is true,I really do wonder where you have been..Cotto/Mayweather was the big talk and then it switched to Margarito..No doubt about it!!Ask other posters on here and I'm sure they'll tell ya the same thing..
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