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The CEO
Pacquiao AND Marquez....tied for #1 iMo.
Big Slim Sweet
This tonight was huge, but I've still got it Pacquaio 1A, Juan 1B. Even though Manny is kinda running from a third match with JMM, it's not like he's sitting around taking meaningless challenges instead. I know the DLH fight nowadays is looked at with 20/20 hindsight, but prior to what Pacman did to that fruit that type of wipeout actually happening was completely unfathomable. And if he KO's Hatton - which he will - he will be on a fucking historic run through the sport. He already is. But shit, so is Marquez. After Manny flattens Hatton he needs to see Juan Man one more time - unless of course Pretty Boy returns for real.
JonnyBlaze
Pac-man is #1..I like Marquez a lot but Pac-man deserves it..DLH was supposed to be a really tough fight for him and you can't blame Pac-man for DLH's preformance..It took a lot of guts to jump 2 divisions after moving up in 1 division and having 1 fight..Pac-man wants to fight the best and we've seen that..Do I want Pac-man/Marquez 3??Hell yeah,but the record book says 2-0 for Pac-man..If this were back in the day,they would have a third fight but today if you win 2/3 it's over..If we get lucky,Marquez/Vasquez 4 will happen..It just doesn't happen anymore though..It's disappointing but as time goes on,things change in the sport(headgear in amateurs,12 round champ fights,and so on)..
The CEO
QUOTE(Big Slim @ Mar 1 2009, 01:43 AM) [snapback]426644[/snapback]
This tonight was huge, but I've still got it Pacquaio 1A, Juan 1B. Even though Manny is kinda running from a third match with JMM, it's not like he's sitting around taking meaningless challenges instead. I know the DLH fight nowadays is looked at with 20/20 hindsight, but prior to what Pacman did to that fruit that type of wipeout actually happening was completely unfathomable. And if he KO's Hatton - which he will - he will be on a fucking historic run through the sport. He already is. But shit, so is Marquez. After Manny flattens Hatton he needs to see Juan Man one more time - unless of course Pretty Boy returns for real.


I'm fine with the 1a, 1b thing because I have to respect what went down in the books (ok with the Draw, thought JMM won the rematch btw).....but looking at their last two, respective opponents for what they are/were....UTILIZING hindsight....Marquez is looking fantastic right about now.

When Pacquiao beats Hatton, I'll be forced to give him the clear #1 again....out of respect of the historical significance....

Lil-lightsout
I guess Pac and JMM can share it for now. But come May, JMM will have it for himself. Also, does it mean anything at all that Chris John beat JMM?
JonnyBlaze
I fucked up my last post so I'm going to correct it here instead of edit the whole thing..I always tend to think Pac-man won the first fight they had but it was a draw..Thanks for the reminder CEO..

Now,having said that,I would want to see a third fight between them after the Hatton fight(win,lose,or draw)..Marquez kinda punked Pac-man out tonight and I think Pac-man will take notice..Marquez is like Ken Norton was with Ali..He only wants Pac-man now..He is going to follow Pac-man wherever he goes weight wise,until Pac-man has to take the fight..I know Pac-man isn't duckin him but it is good strategy by Marquez to say so..
BigG
I think depending on what your view on the Pac-Marquez rematch is you could have Marquez at #1 or tied...To be honest, I had the first fight a draw and the 2nd fight a win for Marquez. Pacquiao is universally ranked the p4p king, especially after beating DLH the way he did though but Marquez is right there. These 2 are definitely the best fighters.
The CEO
QUOTE(Lil-lightsout @ Mar 1 2009, 02:02 AM) [snapback]426651[/snapback]
I guess Pac and JMM can share it for now. But come May, JMM will have it for himself. Also, does it mean anything at all that Chris John beat JMM?


What happened with you and Hatton, bro?...you used to hate the fuck outta him with me....now you come across as if you're holding him in high regard....and picking him over Manny?...lol.....anyway...

Yes...it means something that John "got the win" over JMM....but once again...respecting all necessary circumstances....i.e. the homecooking that enabled it, John's body of work...it puts him well below JMM as far as P4P status goes....


QUOTE(JonnyBlaze @ Mar 1 2009, 02:03 AM) [snapback]426652[/snapback]
I fucked up my last post so I'm going to correct it here instead of edit the whole thing..I always tend to think Pac-man won the first fight they had but it was a draw..Thanks for the reminder CEO..

Now,having said that,I would want to see a third fight between them after the Hatton fight(win,lose,or draw)..Marquez kinda punked Pac-man out tonight and I think Pac-man will take notice..Marquez is like Ken Norton was with Ali..He only wants Pac-man now..He is going to follow Pac-man wherever he goes weight wise,until Pac-man has to take the fight..I know Pac-man isn't duckin him but it is good strategy by Marquez to say so..


It's easy to get the feeling Pac won the 1st one...with the knockdowns and all...I felt that fight could have been called either way, and that a Draw was fine...

and IF they were to have the rubber match in the near future, it would be a pick 'em again...that's just how that matchup goes...


QUOTE(biggeorge89 @ Mar 1 2009, 02:03 AM) [snapback]426653[/snapback]
I think depending on what your view on the Pac-Marquez rematch is you could have Marquez at #1 or tied...


Shit...if I were to base it on my view of their head to heads, I would have had JMM at #1 a long time ago...lol...but like I said...I'm respecting the official results...don't like doing it...but I have to.....
kidbazooka1
I had Pac #1 and Marquez at #2 but after tonight I would have to go with a tie.
Sugar Q
The P4P title should be vacant cause Pac will have his hands full against Hatton and once Marquez moves up in weight and fights someone that can punch his brilliant career will be over. Why rush to give someone that title when there's so many unanswered questions.
pcraw
QUOTE(biggeorge89 @ Mar 1 2009, 03:03 AM) [snapback]426653[/snapback]
I think depending on what your view on the Pac-Marquez rematch is you could have Marquez at #1 or tied...To be honest, I had the first fight a draw and the 2nd fight a win for Marquez. Pacquiao is universally ranked the p4p king, especially after beating DLH the way he did though but Marquez is right there. These 2 are definitely the best fighters.



Agreed!!!
The CEO
I saw your thread and your opinion, Q....but I outright disagree....The #1 spot has to be filled....that's the way it's been, and the way it always will be....
Lil-lightsout
QUOTE(The C.E.O. @ Mar 1 2009, 02:18 AM) [snapback]426654[/snapback]
What happened with you and Hatton, bro?...you used to hate the fuck outta him with me....now you come across as if you're holding him in high regard....and picking him over Manny?...lol.....anyway...


I never could stand Hatton's holding and rough-housing style, and felt he was over-rated and could not wait to see him step up and get flattened. Well, I thought Kostya was going to be that guy. Anyways, I absolutely could not handle stand him after that fight for his dirty tatics. ALWAYS rooted against him up till and including Mayweather. Now I can not stand Floyd either for obvious reasons, but I freaking loved seeing him get KO'd by Floyd.

His attitude after that fight kind of got me liking him, I thought he was pretty cool and down to earth. It also seems he does way less rough-housing and more legal boxing too. Now I am not a huge fan of his, but I respect his abilities more than most, and I definately do not have that burning hate for him like I used to. But the biggest thing about this fight is not that I can't stand Pac, because he is a likeable great fighter, is that to be honest I want to see him get beat. The Pacmania is getting out of control, and I do think he is a GREAT fighter, but he is not unbeatable! A half shot Morales beat him, and Marquez could have argueably got two nods over him. The Diaz was a gimme win, he picked the easiest lightweight champ. Kind of like Roy beating Ruiz for the heavyweight belt, people would have gave him WAY more credit if he would have beat Lewis the REAL Champ. Then he goes up and beats a half dead Oscar, and he is getting ridiculous claims because anyone in there right mind knows if that was a strong prime welterweight we would have probably had a different story. Now it is by no means Pac's fault that Oscar sucked balls. I have always been a huge Joan Guzman fan too, and always pissed me off he never called him out and wanted to fight him. Cause he was awesome, younger, undefeated, and IMO would have beat Pac.

So anyways, I look forward to seeing how Pac can deal with Hatton's pressure and strength. I want to see what happens when a bigger puncher actually starts connecting with Pac. Now I know Pac is way faster and better defensively, but I think if Hatton stays on his chest and MAKES Pac fight more and opens up, Hatton will be able to land too. I truly think Hatton can weather the Pac onslaught and make it really rough in there with him, and I really do hope Ricky keeps it clean and a legal fight as much as possible. Of course I would not be surprised if Pac can pull it off, but I do think Ricky can win just as much as Pac can win. Basically I am hoping Pac gets KO'd.
The CEO
Hatton is a fake ass bitch, L-L...just like his mentor, De La Hoya....

He's drawn you in with that whole, "I'm just one of the blokes." thing....he hasn't been illegally holding and hitting near as much as he used to, but he still disgusts me....getting fights against #1 P4Ps because he's a draw and not because he deserves it....I've come to the conclusion that his rape of Tszyu that got him into this position should NEVER be forgotten or forgiven....because if that bout would have been conducted in fair and square conditions, Hatton wouldn't be relevant when it came mega fights today....

He's just another moneygrubbing fraud...riding off that tainted win for almost 4 years and willing to lose against the best for the right price....

I guarantee that after Pac rips him a new one, he'll just say he lost to the very best, and that there's nothing to be ashamed of....again.
and the NEW
On the Tszyu - Hatton note, the hugging did get a bit excessive and the crowd definately screamed every time Hatton even threw a punch.

In defence of Hatton, Tszyu himself said he was in the prime of his career, the smartest he has ever been in the ring. (IMHO, I agree with him, but his power and absolute brutal shots were not there anymore). Another HUGE factor in the fight, is Hatton did EXACTLY what he needed too. He fought in bursts, changed the tempo dramatically throughout, not letting Tszyu settle into any kind of rythem. And let's face it, if you have ever seen (or trained with) Tszyu in training camp, leading upto fights, you would know his training sessions were as methodical as they come. Not much change of explosiveness at all.

P4P, Pac has done more than JMM with his career, fought better competition, so he get's the tip of my hat. That being said, in a head to head matchup, upon review, I would probably say JMM has a slight edge. On another note, should JMM have fought John again? Yes.
Michigan Assassin
QUOTE(Sugar Q @ Mar 1 2009, 10:44 AM) [snapback]426672[/snapback]
The P4P title should be vacant cause Pac will have his hands full against Hatton and once Marquez moves up in weight and fights someone that can punch his brilliant career will be over. Why rush to give someone that title when there's so many unanswered questions.


A vacant pound for pound title is the gayest hing I've eer heard of. This is a mythical title that shoudn't mean shit. Get off the fence and pick someone.

I'm of the belief that you can't slip down the P4P scale unless you lose or get a ridiculous decision.

Manny #1, JMM #2, BHop #3, Vazquez #4
STEVENSKI
In regards to P4P the whole thing is if you put fighter X against fighter Y & they weighed the same who would win.

That said I think Pac would beat any fighter right now P4P.
Michigan Assassin
QUOTE(Fitz @ Mar 1 2009, 08:24 PM) [snapback]426715[/snapback]
He weighed the same as Marquez and many thought he lost. That said, you need to go with the guy that got the 'official' result, even if you don't want to agree.


Agreed! I thought Manny won the 1st and lost the 2nd by a point.

Neither fight was a robbery. Manny got the nod in the 2nd fightt and should edge JMM in the P4P rankings. However, like I've said before, I am certain that another fight between JMM and Pac will happenin 2009 or early 2010.
D-MARV
Juan Manuel Marquez is the best fighter in the world right now.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE(Fitz @ Mar 2 2009, 01:24 AM) [snapback]426715[/snapback]
He weighed the same as Marquez and many thought he lost. That said, you need to go with the guy that got the 'official' result, even if you don't want to agree.



As I said Fitz it is a matter of semantics & opinion. Many thought Pac lost I think Pac would beat anyone P4P. No one is wrong here unless they are saying that Arreola is P4P or something stupid like that.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(Sugar Q @ Mar 1 2009, 11:44 AM) [snapback]426672[/snapback]
The P4P title should be vacant cause Pac will have his hands full against Hatton and once Marquez moves up in weight and fights someone that can punch his brilliant career will be over. Why rush to give someone that title when there's so many unanswered questions.

That is ridiculous..Strip Pac-man of his P4P rating because he will have his hands full against Hatton??

CEO--It definitely is tough to keep remembering the first Pac-man/Marquez fight was a draw because of the knockdowns..Marquez's nose was looking real bad for the whole fight and he showed why he belonged with Morales and Barrera(mexican warriors)..I thought it was really weird and kinda not cool that Marquez said he is 100% mexican and Diaz is 50% american and 50% mexican..There is no such thing as being ethnically american..Diaz is 100% mexican even though he is from america..Whatever though,Marquez is the fucking man!!
and the NEW
Yeh, but you can't strip a fighter of his P4P status because of what could happen in the future.....
Spyder
How quickly some forget...

The first Pac/JMM fight was NOT a draw. Burt Clements was a moron and thought that he couldn't score a round lower than 10-7. So even though Pac easily won the first round, and scored three knockdowns...10-6 on anyone else's scorecard...Burt scored it 10-7. That one point omission made his card a 113-113 draw, which is what sent that fight to the record books as a draw. If Burt scored that round correctly, then Pac rightfully wins a SD.

http://sports.yahoo.com/box/news?slug=ys-b...o&type=lgns
Sugar Q
QUOTE(Michigan Assassin @ Mar 1 2009, 07:45 PM) [snapback]426710[/snapback]
A vacant pound for pound title is the gayest hing I've eer heard of. This is a mythical title that shoudn't mean shit. Get off the fence and pick someone.

I'm of the belief that you can't slip down the P4P scale unless you lose or get a ridiculous decision.

Manny #1, JMM #2, BHop #3, Vazquez #4



Why call something gay unless you see things from a gay perspective? Sorry my dude but I don't smile.gif Furthermore, why give someone a title that they haven't earned? Why be quick to pick when we can wait a little and see who the true P4P best is? It's cool my dude, aint no rush. I think within the next 12 months we'll know. The major question for all you guys so quick to appoint is: What happens if Hatton defeats Pac in May (only 2 months away)? Who's your P4P then? Then let's say Marquez steps up to 140 and Hatton defeats him then what? These questions are not just hypothetical they are actually in the making. Mosley beats all of them. Should he be the P4P king?
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(and the NEW @ Mar 2 2009, 12:05 AM) [snapback]426736[/snapback]
Yeh, but you can't strip a fighter of his P4P status because of what could happen in the future.....

Exactly..
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(Fitz @ Mar 2 2009, 05:36 PM) [snapback]426763[/snapback]
Some people may have seen it a draw by correctly scoring the round also, I know I saw it pretty damn close even scoring it 10-6.

I had the fight for Pac-man,but am ok with the draw..
BigG
QUOTE(Fitz @ Mar 2 2009, 01:24 AM) [snapback]426715[/snapback]
He weighed the same as Marquez and many thought he lost. That said, you need to go with the guy that got the 'official' result, even if you don't want to agree.


Fitz, you don't NEED to go with the guy who got the official result. If that's the case well I guess Chavez kept his top P4P spot after the draw with Pernell Whitaker since he didn't officially lose. That's just my perosnal opinion. This is why I couldn't bring myself to rate that Joe Calzaghe over Hopkins....becuase I thought he lost the fight. No way am I gonna rate this fraud over Hopkins or Mayweather or Pacquiao or Marquez...that's what I was thinking...Then again, if Ring rated Marquez over Pac, I know it would cause alot of problems..hehe..so I see your point.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(biggeorge89 @ Mar 2 2009, 05:56 PM) [snapback]426771[/snapback]
Fitz, you don't NEED to go with the guy who got the official result. If that's the case well I guess Chavez kept his top P4P spot after the draw with Pernell Whitaker since he didn't officially lose. That's just my opinion. Then again, if Ring rated Marquez over Pac, I know it would cause alot of problems..hehe..

I totally agree with you..P4P is not based on any offical result..I think the offical results play a big part but is not the deciding factor on who is P4P..P4P is not a belt you can win inside the ring like the offical organization belts..If you beat the P4P best,you don't win the P4P rating over them.,
BigG
Well the thing is, only an idiot would have Winky beating Hopkins and DLH beating Mayweather Jr...

So what about Chris John? He has a win over Marquez (which I think was kind of a robbery)...shouldn't he be on the list?

Maybe if it was on HBO or Showtime seen by many people things would be different but John for the most part is an unknown champion.

P4P list is who you think is the best fighter in the world.....
BigG
Then I would have to TEAR down the list as much as possible..to see that slappy fuck on top of the P4P. laugh.gif

Fitz dude, Hopkins beat the crap out of Winky and totally outlanded him..that was competitive up until about round 7...

I see where your coming from with go by official results. But just look at how I saw Hopkins-Calzaghe..I mean I thought Hopkins was higher P4P before the fight, I think he is a better fighter than Calzaghe, and I thought he beat Calzaghe..and after all of that, I will rate Calzaghe over him jus cuz he got an SD win? See where I'm coming from?
Big Slim Sweet
I think you have to honor official results to some degree, otherwise what's the point of even having them? You can't (or shouldn't at least) just subjectively go around saying fighter A beat fighter B because that's how you saw it.

Certain fights like Whitaker-Chavez or Lewis-Holyfield 1 you can bend that thinking a little, because those were more obvious cases of bad decisions. But Pac-JMM 1 & 2 were air tight. My personal opinion with those is you have to honor the official result, even if you don't necessarily agree with it.
torvix2000
I agree with Fitz. You go with the official result. Marquez-Pac was not a robbery. It was close. Marquez-Chris John, well... a little bit of a robbery. But even great fighters have losses. Since Marquez lost to Chris John, I'm gonna deduct some bit of points there. But not much. Statistically speakin, the Chris John's fight was an "outlier". An abberration. It won't affect my overall perception of Marquez.

Also, P4P is based on the official result and how the fighter was able to come up with the win. He struggled and he gets some bit of point. He wiped the floor with his opponent and he gets higher score. I can't see a fighter always winning but struggling and still getting high scores. You can struggle against some great fighters but you should wipe the floor with old, B level or washed up fighters.

That said, I say if Pac even struggles against Hatton, then Marquez gets #1 P4P. Even though Marquez "struggled" against Diaz, he's beaten both Casa and him.

In my opinion, Pacquiao could have knocked out both Juan Diaz and Casamayor. But the fights did not happen. And I don't give passes. I don't want to give Floyd Mayweather the pass too. That he would beat Margarito, Cotto, and Mosley.
and the NEW
Don't agree you go by official results.

People talk all the time about how someone was past it etc etc. The game is completely discretionary and comes down to opinion, hence, you should use it when judging a fighter. The official result was only the opinion of 3 people and is sometimes widely dismissed by the majority. Think BigG pointed out Chavez V Whitaker, a perfect example.

Why use your discretion to judge a fighters oppositions quality, the fighters own quality, or to judge at what point they were past their best, but then stick to a strict official result? Doesn't make sense IMHO......
torvix2000
QUOTE(and the NEW @ Mar 3 2009, 12:27 AM) [snapback]426802[/snapback]
Don't agree you go by official results.

People talk all the time about how someone was past it etc etc. The game is completely discretionary and comes down to opinion, hence, you should use it when judging a fighter. The official result was only the opinion of 3 people and is sometimes widely dismissed by the majority. Think BigG pointed out Chavez V Whitaker, a perfect example.

Why use your discretion to judge a fighters oppositions quality, the fighters own quality, or to judge at what point they were past their best, but then stick to a strict official result? Doesn't make sense IMHO......


It makes sense.

1. Stick to official result. Whether a fighter being judged won or lost, then
2. Weigh the result. This is the subjective part. You can even deduct 0 point for a loss if you want to. Or 0 point for a win.

A loss is a loss. If a fighter loses, then I'm gonna deduct some points. For example, Marquez lost against John. But, was it a wipeout? Nope. So only mild deductions. Combine that with what Marquez has done his entire life and the effect of that loss will be negligible.

Even this steps have disadvantages, too. Because, well, of #2. The subjective part.
Imperius3
Marquez is #1.

I don't care what the official decisions were, I had Marquez beating Pacquiao twice. Official decisions don't matter on my P4P list. Marquez has also fought the better opposition, and he should still be undefeated in my view.
and the NEW
Not sure what your talking about with BHOP and Cal fitz?

I am just saying what Imperius said, you judge the fight yourself. Boxing is completely discretionary, so much grey, so no point going by an official decision with all the other kind of discretionary weighting to historical signifigance (which is ultimately what your trying to do with a P4P list or any kind of list).

Though, I do agree with Torvix, a loss (particularly in your prime) should take some shine off. I believe this is a huge belief of Bert Sugar too. Obviously, though, the loss was not a beatdown, so it wouldn't be considered too bad for JMM.
STEVENSKI
I think we need a little perspective here guys. P4P is not about who has won & if they lost etc it is to do with do you think if fighter X would beat fighter Y at the same weight. That is the sole determining factor in classifying P4P not if they lost or won a razor thin decision or were knocked out by someone two weight divisions above them.

If you think that at X weight Manny Pac would whoop every other fighter in the world then fine he is YOUR #1 same goes for JMM or Hopkins or whoever you feel is the best POUND FOR POUND fighter in the world.

Purely opinion based is P4P ratings there can be little to no formula to applying it in the real world.

STEVENSKI
QUOTE(Fitz @ Mar 3 2009, 03:25 AM) [snapback]426822[/snapback]
Actually, biggeorge. I'm sure you have never had Hopkins losing to Taylor or Calzaghe, so what is your reason for not having Hopkins at #1 anymore? After all you told me that you don't go by official results. Unless you never had Hopkins #1 before the Taylor fights.


No he had Tszyu at #1 like I did.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE(Fitz @ Mar 3 2009, 03:49 AM) [snapback]426826[/snapback]
But that logic doesn't really work that well IMO. I think you do need to go by wins and resume also. Because styles make fights, you may have Darchinyan beating Cotto, but losing to someone like Collazo. If you don't go by wins, people could have Mundine really high, because despite him not beating anybody great, they may think his skills are that good, they have him beating some other guys.
I don't think you can go purely on that either. I think you need a combination of a bit of everything, even what you suggested but I think the simplest way is to just accept most results and go like that. Everybody knows Pacquiao isn't my favourite fighter, but he was given a close win over Marquez and I can live with having him at #1 despite me thinking Marquez beat him.
I think if you ignore results, you have stupid lists showing up.




I don't disagree with your comments but I just think that common sense should be applied. As I said it is opinion based & if YOU feel that fighter X would beat any boxer if they were the same magical weight then that is fine. You do not have to like a fighter to have them at #1. Anthony Mundine has shown absolutely nothing to even get him within spitting distance fo a P4P list.

Styles make fights & Marquez may have Pac's # but if you think Pac would beat more top tier fighters at X mythical weight than JMM then it is right to think of him as #1. The same goes for our resident "Bad Man" Vic. he may have lost to Donaire but if you think he would beat more of the top competition across all teh weight clases then he is a better P4P fighter.

All these sensible posts make me want to get stuck into hating as there have been too few hate base dones by me lately.
Imperius3
QUOTE(STEVENSKI @ Mar 2 2009, 10:18 PM) [snapback]426829[/snapback]
I don't disagree with your comments but I just think that common sense should be applied. As I said it is opinion based & if YOU feel that fighter X would beat any boxer if they were the same magical weight then that is fine. You do not have to like a fighter to have them at #1. Anthony Mundine has shown absolutely nothing to even get him within spitting distance fo a P4P list.

Styles make fights & Marquez may have Pac's # but if you think Pac would beat more top tier fighters at X mythical weight than JMM then it is right to think of him as #1. The same goes for our resident "Bad Man" Vic. he may have lost to Donaire but if you think he would beat more of the top competition across all teh weight clases then he is a better P4P fighter.

All these sensible posts make me want to get stuck into hating as there have been too few hate base dones by me lately.


My problem with that method is it's not really realistic. I mean obviously Hopkins can't come down to 135 to fight Marquez. It's not even possible. Marquez can't fight at 175 either. It's hard for me to imagine them "magically" moving up or down to these different weight classes. And if we always go by the official results, won't all P4P lists look almost exactly the same?

P4P lists are suppose to be subjective though, I think. So to each their own. I personally go by the skill of the fighter, their accomplishments, their opposition, and how they've performed or whether they won or lost on my scorecard.
streetlion1
My top 3 P4Ps are...

Marquez

Pacman

Hopkins

and the NEW
Stevenskis point, is one I made earlier, how do you judge P4P?

I judge it, how every single historian judges it on a historical basis. That is, what they have accomplished, their level of competition, and what they did against that competition (how good they looked or how bad they lost).

Just as this is so subjective, so is the case of who beat who. I mean, most who rate Whitaker highly, wouldn't say he drew Chavez, a big factor is how well he outboxed Chavez (though Chavez did make it competitive).

If someone told me that BHOP is #1 because he beat Taylor and Joe Cal, then that is fine, but I wouldn't read their list or take any note of it, because in my view, you can't win a fight by fighting half of it. Just not possible, at best, you could get a draw.

As was stated once before on this forum, many believed Ike Williams the GREATEST lightweight of all-time and still do. Many only have him around the top 5. Who is right? Subjectivity of boxing right there. Depends how you judge it, competition and reign on his weight division, or pure who was the absolute best at their prime?

There is so much subjectivity in boxing, so trying to apply some standard rule like 'go with decisions' does not many any sense whatsoever IMVHO. If you want to do that, all power to you, but when you tell me Chavez drew Whitaker or give him some credit on a historical basis for the decision, I won't take any note.

2c
and the NEW
Another thing I will say, is you have to judge a fighter P4P by what they have accomplished. You don't say, RJJ is #1, Tarver beat him so now he takes the spot. You say, RJJ got beat and so it takes some shine off his spot and he probably drops down the list.

This is why I have no problem with someone saying either Marquez or Pac. Pac has accomplished more with his career, has bigger wins against bigger competition overall. Not to mention, Marquez lost to John. But I could see a case, where someone could say Marquez beat Pac in both encounters, and that would be a fair opinion too. Guess this case would be somewhat similar to Pep and Saddler. But in the end, Pep goes higher due to his over all career performance, and so too, should Pac IMVHO.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE(Imperius3 @ Mar 3 2009, 04:34 AM) [snapback]426831[/snapback]
My problem with that method is it's not really realistic. I mean obviously Hopkins can't come down to 135 to fight Marquez. It's not even possible. Marquez can't fight at 175 either. It's hard for me to imagine them "magically" moving up or down to these different weight classes. And if we always go by the official results, won't all P4P lists look almost exactly the same?


That is why it is called P4P. If they were magically the same size who would win? It is not that hard a question when you look at their attributes & use your own judgment.

Otherwise we may as well say who is the best in X weight range.
Lil-lightsout
So there is no really TRUE number one P4P fighter that the vast majority agrees with??? Would it be fair to say Mayweather was the last true recognized P4P fighter in the world? Then Roy Jones before him? Then Pernell Whitaker? Then Chavez? Sound about right? Or am I missing someone, or am I way off?
STEVENSKI
I will be honest I thought Tszyu was the P4P fighter when he was active & in his prime. That is base don his ability to deal with all types of threats & his concussive power.

It is a personal thing though.
Lil-lightsout
QUOTE(STEVENSKI @ Mar 3 2009, 01:00 AM) [snapback]426850[/snapback]
I will be honest I thought Tszyu was the P4P fighter when he was active & in his prime. That is base don his ability to deal with all types of threats & his concussive power.

It is a personal thing though.


Is this after or before the Vince Phillips fight?
torvix2000
QUOTE(STEVENSKI @ Mar 3 2009, 05:38 AM) [snapback]426845[/snapback]
That is why it is called P4P. If they were magically the same size who would win? It is not that hard a question when you look at their attributes & use your own judgment.


Well, you are right. However, we also base our predictions on accomplishments in the ring. For example, I'd say Mayweather is P4P #1 because he'd beat every active fighters if they are all on the same weight. How the hell was I able to elicit that opinion? Because I've seen Mayweather on the ring against dangerous oppositions. And he won.

P4P for me is a combination of sticking to the official records. Then weighing them. And if there were some abberations, then those few abberations will not affect much our judgement. I stick to Calzaghe's all win records. But there isn't much in his resume that will allow me to score very high points to make him P4P#1. But a win is a win. Even if he's winning by slapping his opponents. LOL! In the first place, nobody should lose by getting slapped. Think of this: Calzaghe is a legend. Perhaps the first fighter who have won by slapping. LOL!
BigG
I had Hopkins losing to Jermain Taylor in fight 2... Hopkins in my eyes was always in the top 3. It's just that Pac and Marquez have been so impressive and deserve to be in the P4P. Pac has been fighting at the highest lvl and he is dominating.
BigG
But don't get me wrong I can TOTALLY see yours, Torvix, and Big Slim's arguement. I think it's agreed upon that Pac is universally the best in the world...like Jones, Hopkins, Mayweather was before him.
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