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and the NEW
Here is a good matchup that I can't remember being posed here.

Who wins this one? LaMotta was tough as nails (his fights with Robby prooved this) and others he was 'stopped' it's believed were an underworld matter, something like that 'phantom punch'.

LaMotta no doubt would try walk him down, aka, Hagler, and I think would get through some big, hard, short shots on Hearns.

Would Hearns slug or try to box and if he tried to box, would he be able to keep the distance? If LaMotta got in, would he stop Hearns or be able to do enough work to get a decision? If Hearns tried to slug with him like he did with Hagler, would LaMotta blow him out quick too or would Hearns still have enough to beat LaMotta?

I really can't pick this one, think it could go either way. A near 50/50.

STEVENSKI
I think it would be a fairly clear fight for LaMotta.

He had a excellent beard & is always underrated for his boxing skills & in particular his jab. About the only advantages Tommy would have are his speed & reach but I don't see him being able to use it for 15 rounds.

Prime vs Prime I think it would look somewhat similar the last 1/2 of Leonard vs Hearns 1.

I just think this is a extremely bad styles matchup for Tommy & he would get hurt. He could box & dance his way to a decision but Tommy ain't like that he goes to war & war against Jake spells brutal knockout.
and the NEW
Yeh, I think I tend to agree Stevenski.

Hearns big problem, is he did not know when to grab and hold on, and this, inside with Jake, would not be a smart move. Jake showed what he could do to Robby on the ropes and I don't think Hearns has the whiskers to take the same kind of beating.

I think Hearns may start off well, outboxing LaMotta (if he chose to try stay outside), but as the rounds wore on, I think the pressure, and punching of LaMotta would be too much and he would stop Hearns (not really a fair matchup since Hearns prime was Welter, but still, a good one nonetheless).
BigG
I think Lamotta gets him late.
JonnyBlaze
If Hearns boxed him,Hearns would win..If Hearns fought with him,LaMotta would win..Hearns is not Sugar Ray but he would have a huge height/reach advantage on LaMotta..Hearns has about 6 inches on Sugar Ray in terms of reach..Hearn's jab would be huge in this fight..If Hearns tried to fight with LaMotta,he'd definitely get broken down and probably taken outta there later in the fight..I think Hearns would be smart and box LaMotta though..

At first,I didn't like the match up,but the more I think about it the better it gets..
and the NEW
Yeh, he has a big reach compared to Robby.

But I don't think that's a factor, I think it's the fact that Hearns doesn't hold when his in trouble, that would bust him up. The jab alone wouldn't keep LaMotta off all night, so he would have to learn when to hold, when to move and when to fight. Robby is also a better inside fighter than Hearns I think, who needs a bit more distance to get his shots off.

I'm not sure even a boxing Hearns, wouldn't get bulled.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(and the NEW @ Mar 1 2009, 11:17 PM) [snapback]426729[/snapback]
Yeh, he has a big reach compared to Robby.

But I don't think that's a factor, I think it's the fact that Hearns doesn't hold when his in trouble, that would bust him up. The jab alone wouldn't keep LaMotta off all night, so he would have to learn when to hold, when to move and when to fight. Robby is also a better inside fighter than Hearns I think, who needs a bit more distance to get his shots off.

I'm not sure even a boxing Hearns, wouldn't get bulled.

When SRR massacred(the fight) LaMotta he threw 90 punches a round with 60 of them being jabs..Hearns may not be able to do that for a whole fight every round like SRR did but it does show how the jab is effective against LaMotta to some degree..
and the NEW
Definately effective, but is it enough against a raging bull like LaMotta? I'm not so sure.

Hearns would need the entire game plan, much as he would have to beat Hagler. It's where his generalship against that type of fighter is in real question. If he can't knock them out quickly, can he keep them off? He couldn't keep a 147lb Ray Leonard off, which really makes me wonder when it comes to a larger, natural pressure fighter......
STEVENSKI
The more I think about it the more I start thinking of Tommy the newborn foal flailing about after getting cracked.

ATN was saying Tommy never held which is true & he always was lured into exchanging with his opponent. This & his lack of defense to teh body would be his undoing.

This would end badly for Tommy especially if he got brave & exchanged with Jake.
D-MARV
Tommy TKO8... LaMotta, tough as nails, but would be out matched. Hearns would stick that jab in his face all night long. I see Tommy outboxing him over the course of 8 rounds and the fight being stopped by the ref, corner, doc, etc.
STEVENSKI
You must see things I don't. Considering how much punishment Jake could take & still be alert & fighting back I don't see him getting stopped.
and the NEW
Exactly Stevenski.

Not to mention, Jake was not just a guy who came forward flailing without any defence.

He always kept low, was cagey as hell, used subtle movement and came in on a decent jab of his own.

The more I think of this, the more I see it going only one direction, and that is Jake by KO.

Now how about Zale V Hearns? LOL, brutal!

Hearns would probably do better at Welter against Basilio, but any huge, strong, great chinned, pressuring middleweight, would probably have enough to stop a Hearns with a serious lack of generalship against such a fighter.
STEVENSKI
Zale vs Hearns would be ugly & I suggest one of the participants would get a stretcher ride. This would be a case of whoever landed the killer shot first & if the other guy could stand up to it.

I would favour Zale due to his better overall abilities if they slugged it out. If Tommy did stick & move then he would win a easy decision in very dominant fashion. We all know that would never be the case as he cannot help but to exchange with his opponent. He had the balls but not the chin which was his downfall.
and the NEW
See I personally, think Zale would absolutely starch Tommy. Worse than LaMotta. He could punch like a truck and was tough as nails himself. He was strong as hell and would just brutalise Tommy at Middle. Again, not a fair comparison considering Tommy was a welter. But Zale was at least as strong as Hagler, maybe not as technically proficient, but IMHO, had a lot more power and could go the whole 15 rounds.

By the end of his career, against Graziano etc, he was not the same Zale apparently as in his prime years.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(STEVENSKI @ Mar 10 2009, 11:51 PM) [snapback]427596[/snapback]
Zale vs Hearns would be ugly & I suggest one of the participants would get a stretcher ride. This would be a case of whoever landed the killer shot first & if the other guy could stand up to it.

I would favour Zale due to his better overall abilities if they slugged it out. If Tommy did stick & move then he would win a easy decision in very dominant fashion. We all know that would never be the case as he cannot help but to exchange with his opponent. He had the balls but not the chin which was his downfall.

I have to say Zale..

Zale and Ray Arcel were my trainer's trainers..Arcel trained Duran,Barney Ross,Ezzard Charles,Tony Zale,Larry Holmes,Kid Galivan,and Jim Braddock along with 13 other world champs..It's really crazy to think about that shit..Jack Dempsey always would talk about how guys who got trained by trainers who didn't know what they were doing would retire from boxing then train new guys..He would say how these new guys would learn a lot of bad habits and not learn to box properly..These new guys would become known as a "palooka" from Dempsey,or a bum..It'd be like one of us being trained by Ricardo Mayorga..hahahaha..
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(and the NEW @ Mar 11 2009, 12:25 AM) [snapback]427601[/snapback]
See I personally, think Zale would absolutely starch Tommy. Worse than LaMotta. He could punch like a truck and was tough as nails himself. He was strong as hell and would just brutalise Tommy at Middle. Again, not a fair comparison considering Tommy was a welter. But Zale was at least as strong as Hagler, maybe not as technically proficient, but IMHO, had a lot more power and could go the whole 15 rounds.

By the end of his career, against Graziano etc, he was not the same Zale apparently as in his prime years.

I've never seen Zale fight in his prime,have you??Footage on him is really limited..
and the NEW
QUOTE(JonnyBlaze @ Mar 11 2009, 04:34 AM) [snapback]427603[/snapback]
I've never seen Zale fight in his prime,have you??Footage on him is really limited..


Nope, not sure if there is even footage of him in his prime, just as with so damn many great fighters. sad.gif

That is why I said "apparently", have to go by what the experts of the time say.

Nice on the trainer front Blaze, it's always good to talk to guys who have seen these living legends in action.

JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(and the NEW @ Mar 11 2009, 12:37 AM) [snapback]427605[/snapback]
Nope, not sure if there is even footage of him in his prime, just as with so damn many great fighters. sad.gif

That is why I said "apparently", have to go by what the experts of the time say.

Nice on the trainer front Blaze, it's always good to talk to guys who have seen these living legends in action.

Exactly man..I hate to brag about my trainer but for all he has seen and done,I'm just real happy he is my trainer..Shit,he has sparred with MM Halger and trained a long side guys like Frazier,Basilio,Pryor,Duran,and a lot of other guys..He told me the hardest guy to ever hit him was Hagler..I sometimes have conversations with him for hours asking him about the old days..Having Arcel and Zale training him shows me how he got his freakish power..It's not everyday you get to hear these inside stories like this first hand and I consider myself lucky..I know you are all about the classics so I know you understand where I'm comin from..
and the NEW
Yeh, absolutely Blaze. Good to hear, keep us informed of any interesting things you hear.

I've met a few good and great fighters and trainers from the past, my trainer fought numerous all-time greats and was apparently a very good fighter himself. Great to talk to them and listen to their stories and opinions, inspiring. Can't wipe the smile off my face and the thing I noticed, is how damn respectful they all are. None of this new-age BHOP, Toney, Mayweather, thug mentality BS. They are all pure class.

BTW Blaze, why is Moore a favourite fighter of yours?
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(and the NEW @ Mar 11 2009, 01:05 AM) [snapback]427612[/snapback]
Yeh, absolutely Blaze. Good to hear, keep us informed of any interesting things you hear.

I've met a few good and great fighters and trainers from the past, my trainer fought numerous all-time greats and was apparently a very good fighter himself. Great to talk to them and listen to their stories and opinions, inspiring. Can't wipe the smile off my face and the thing I noticed, is how damn respectful they all are. None of this new-age BHOP, Toney, Mayweather, thug mentality BS. They are all pure class.

BTW Blaze, why is Moore a favourite fighter of yours?

Moore is my favorite fighter because of his mentality in boxing..He loved what he did and cared more about the boxing than the money(money was an issue,but he loved to BOX)..When Archie first got divorced he was ok about it and said "boxing is my woman"..That is DOPE if you ask me..His defense has got to be my favorite ever..He is so calm in the ring..People sometimes compare James Toney to him..Toney would get whooped by Archie but there are some similarities..Archie was able to punch so hard because of his technique..If Ali had stayed with Archie,Ali would have had a lot more power than he did..I also really like Archie because he was always thinking in the ring..His personality outside the ring makes me like him even more..We hear of Pac-man giving away his money today,but Archie had always been doing that..Archie would always help people who needed it(like food,clothes,money,and doctor/dentist appointments)..He helped so many little kids including Tommy Brooks in his kid program he discovered..It also says a lot about him that he had waited ALL those years to have finally gotten a chance to fight for the belt against Maxim and never complained about it..

1-3 top favorites---Sugar Ray Robinson,Archie Moore,and Holyfield(behind SRR and Archie)..After that some other top favorites are Willie Pep and Joe Louis(I look almost exactly like him in the ring,my trainer gave me his style which is the same style as SRR)..That'd be my top 5..
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(and the NEW @ Mar 11 2009, 01:05 AM) [snapback]427612[/snapback]
Yeh, absolutely Blaze. Good to hear, keep us informed of any interesting things you hear.

I've met a few good and great fighters and trainers from the past, my trainer fought numerous all-time greats and was apparently a very good fighter himself. Great to talk to them and listen to their stories and opinions, inspiring. Can't wipe the smile off my face and the thing I noticed, is how damn respectful they all are. None of this new-age BHOP, Toney, Mayweather, thug mentality BS. They are all pure class.

Yeah,I know what you're sayin man..They are really respectful and love their fans..Nothing is better than hearing the old time stories..Who did your trainer fight??
STEVENSKI
Just letting you know that I will be starting a thread on a guy all yall sleep on. Without doubt one of the best ever fought the best & was a bad bad bad bad man as well as a alkie & a artist in & out of the ring.

He campaigned at many weights & dever ducked a fight in the ring or on the street. Most cats on here would not know of him but he is a top 10 P4P fighter ever IMO & top 20 at worst. He won world titles in two divisions & gave away weight like it was water.

Who am I?
and the NEW
Interesting Blaze. My trainer fought Jofre (ranked by many as a top 10 or top 5 P4P of all-time), Arguello and Olivares. He thinks Arguello was the best of the lot (interesting) and he used to train with him at Lunar Park (the famous Argentine gym).

Stevenski, ha ha, I like it, a bit of boxing trivia. Have to run right now, but will think about it on my way. Can you give us a tip on the general divisions he was fighting in? Lights, middles or heavies?
STEVENSKI
He went from 147 all the way up to .....................................................
and the NEW
You are................Mickey Walker!

Yes, no doubt, he could be one of the greatest ever. P4P top 10? Definately could justify him being in there.

Any welter who can hang with Greb (a HUGE middle), beat Tiger Flowers (another great middle), match it with Loughran and Rosenbloom (two great light-heavies) and fight a draw with Sharkey (heavy), is nobody to be snuffed at. Never done a P4P top list, but definately under-rated by many. Still though, Bert Sugar has him top 10 if I'm not mistaken.
STEVENSKI
Rightly so (nice answer). He makes today's so called "catchweight" fighters look more pathetic than the already do. No catchweight BS with Walker if you were 175 he fought you at 175. I know I am a hater of PBF but comparing his accomplishments with PBF & you will see why I have so much venom for him. Sure he lost fights but he fought the fights that mattered & his record would have been so much better had he hung around 147-160. His accomplishments in today's day & age would mean he would have probably won belts from 147-heavyweight.

To do the things he did in the age he did them makes him truly special. The more I think about what he did the higher I feel like rating him. He was the type of fighter who can be mentioned & held up with the truly elite in history.

and the NEW
No doubt, but Mickey, is one of those throwback fighters, that makes this notion "why can't a fighter just stay around and clean out any decent guy in his division like the old timers" make no sense. Throwback fighters used to jump divisions to fight the absolute best around them. Most of the time, if a great guy just stayed in his own division, he would probably remain undefeated in their primes fighting B class fighters or smaller guys moving up, until he either retired or became a shell. Look at how Monzon, Hagler, BHOP dominated their divisions in their primes. But in the end, none of them on 99% of lists make top 10 P4P, despite being some of the most precocious talent the middleweight division has ever seen, do they? Yet, all 3 perhaps had that potential in them if they took the huge fights in their prime.

Would have loved to see Tszyu have a crack and move up and call out DLH, Mosley at Welter. He may have just beaten them, and they would have known that, considering how widely respected he was as an amateur, but now, everyone has the 'low quality opposition' arguement over him, when perhaps, he was on these guys levels.

Just MHO.
PR316
Lamotta comes from behind and stops Hearns late. Tommy opens up a good lead with his jabs and hard rights. By the middle rounds Lamotta begins to find his way inside the long arms and begins to get some good work done. Hearns' legs will be gone by the late rounds and he'll be forced to stand and trade and that will ultimately lead to Lamotta stopping him on the ropes with an unanswered barrage.


Lamotta via 13th round stoppage.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE(PR316 @ Mar 11 2009, 11:18 PM) [snapback]427680[/snapback]
Lamotta comes from behind and stops Hearns late. Tommy opens up a good lead with his jabs and hard rights. By the middle rounds Lamotta begins to find his way inside the long arms and begins to get some good work done. Hearns' legs will be gone by the late rounds and he'll be forced to stand and trade and that will ultimately lead to Lamotta stopping him on the ropes with an unanswered barrage.
Lamotta via 13th round stoppage.


I agree with this analaysis but think it may have been earler more like round 7 or 8. It would really be down to how long it takes for Jake to establish his timing more than what Tommy would do. He had fairly heavy hands especially to the body but the outcome is going to be the same either way.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE(and the NEW @ Mar 11 2009, 11:03 PM) [snapback]427679[/snapback]
No doubt, but Mickey, is one of those throwback fighters, that makes this notion "why can't a fighter just stay around and clean out any decent guy in his division like the old timers" make no sense. Throwback fighters used to jump divisions to fight the absolute best around them.


The thing is though that MW did clean his divisions out & then moved up to face bigger challenges. Fighters now consider winning a paper title & moving up to be championship work. Unify & then move up if you dare.
and the NEW
Yeh, but due to business arrangements, promotional work and the way fighters prepare for each individual fight etc etc, you cannot have as many fights these days. So by the time you clean your division out of all of those guys who were 'potentially dangerous', you will have most likely missed your opportunity to face some of the big names above you.

Fighters these days really are stuck between a rock and a hard place IMO.
STEVENSKI
I agree to a extent but teh way PBF handled 140 for example was disgraceful. He picked the weakest beltholder to fight for the most reward & then called himself champ.

He then did not even hang around to defend his paper belt once.
and the NEW
Yeh, I was actually a big PBF doubter, but I will give him his props, he has beaten some very good fighters, both Castillo and Corrales were the most dangerous at 130-135 respectively.

I just don't see many fighters he could have 'ducked', except for Cotto (who really only prooved himself with a close fight against Mosley) and Mosley himself and he may still fight any of those two (though wouldn't bother with Cotto, everyone will just say Margarito ruined him).

Mosley and Pac if he gets past Hatton are the only two options left and I honestly think we will see one of those fights.

Other than that, I can't think of anyone else he could have fought? And let's face it, nobody fights EVERYONE they 'should' have fought, even Mosley skipped right through there. But then again, a guy like Tszyu could have moved up, afterall, he NEEDED the welters to define his legacy, more than they needed him at the time. Just the way Pryor was left out of the Hearns/Leonard/Duran rivalries where he could have done a lot more for his legacy than an ageing, blown up Arguello and Cervantez who was a shell of his former self to say the very least.
Fitz
QUOTE(and the NEW @ Mar 12 2009, 05:12 PM) [snapback]427730[/snapback]
Yeh, I was actually a big PBF doubter, but I will give him his props, he has beaten some very good fighters, both Castillo and Corrales were the most dangerous at 130-135 respectively.

I just don't see many fighters he could have 'ducked', except for Cotto (who really only prooved himself with a close fight against Mosley) and Mosley himself and he may still fight any of those two (though wouldn't bother with Cotto, everyone will just say Margarito ruined him).

Mosley and Pac if he gets past Hatton are the only two options left and I honestly think we will see one of those fights.


I see what you are saying, and Mayweather's work at 130 and 135 is good, the problem is 140 and above. You say you don't see who he could have ducked. Well he only called Mosley out after Mosley said he was taking the year off (after finishing his second fight for the year). But how is Brusseles, Mitchell, Hatton (at 147), Baldomir, Judah and Corley any better than Cotto? I don't blame him for taking the DLH fight though. But there were better fighters at 147 that he could have faced and could have happened, but they didn't, That list I just mentioned isn't that great at all and not all of those were necessary.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(STEVENSKI @ Mar 11 2009, 02:01 AM) [snapback]427621[/snapback]
Just letting you know that I will be starting a thread on a guy all yall sleep on. Without doubt one of the best ever fought the best & was a bad bad bad bad man as well as a alkie & a artist in & out of the ring.

He campaigned at many weights & dever ducked a fight in the ring or on the street. Most cats on here would not know of him but he is a top 10 P4P fighter ever IMO & top 20 at worst. He won world titles in two divisions & gave away weight like it was water.

Who am I?

Let us know if ya have anymore like this..Good question..Maybe throw in a little more details like weight class like And The New said..We should start a topic on boxing trivia..I like the thought of it and it would be interesting to see how people handle it..Let me know if ya all want to do that or I'll make one on this topic..
and the NEW
Yes, but remember, at the time, Judah was rated the best up there, after avenging the Spinks loss with a brutal KO, but was then unfortunately beaten by Carlos. Mayweather took them both.

At that time, Cotto hadn't 'beaten' Mosley from memory so I would say the only real man to face was Mosley himself. And I mean really, if Mosley wanted that fight THAT BAD, he could have taken it still regardless of a tooth which doesn't take a year to fix.......

Definately though, Mayweather had better fights to take for his legacy but I still give him credit for taking on a lot of excellent competition and it's not over yet, he will be back against one of the best.

Blaze, yeh, the occasional triva Q would be interesting........
Fitz
QUOTE(and the NEW @ Mar 13 2009, 10:58 AM) [snapback]427843[/snapback]
Yes, but remember, at the time, Judah was rated the best up there, after avenging the Spinks loss with a brutal KO, but was then unfortunately beaten by Carlos. Mayweather took them both.

At that time, Cotto hadn't 'beaten' Mosley from memory so I would say the only real man to face was Mosley himself. And I mean really, if Mosley wanted that fight THAT BAD, he could have taken it still regardless of a tooth which doesn't take a year to fix.......

Definately though, Mayweather had better fights to take for his legacy but I still give him credit for taking on a lot of excellent competition and it's not over yet, he will be back against one of the best.

Blaze, yeh, the occasional triva Q would be interesting........


Yes, after being beaten by Carlos Baldomir. You need to think carefully, losing to Baldomir, lol. The Judah fight should have been put on hold straight after that. You are right, that at that time, Cotto hadn't beaten Mosley.
But can you tell me who Brusseles beat? Who did Corley beat? Who did Mitchell beat? Who did Gatti beat? and who did Judah lose to? lol. You make reasons to why he shouldn't have fought Cotto, but I want to hear your reasons on why he fought all those other guys?
I already explained it to you about what happened about the tooth incident. Mosley said after his second fight for the year that he is spending time with the family, taking the year off and getting a tooth fixed. Mayweather made a challenge right after Mosley said he is taking the year off, lol. Don't be one of those guys that take a small part of several sentences, and just make it out like it was just a tooth. Who said anything about taking a year to fix? When you a half way through a year, and you say you are not fighting until the following year, that's only half a year, not a full year.
Like I said, you made excuses for fights Mayweather didn't take, what's the reasoning for fighting guys like Mitchell, Brusseles, Gatti, Judah (which I don't understand, as you slag Cotto for losing to Margarito in a thread last week, and give Judah a pass for losing to Baldomir, lol) and Hatton at 147 (Hatton was not a legit guy as a welter).
Face it, Mayweather has not fought one legitimate welter. Judah is a small welter, Hatton is a small welter and Baldomir is the only legit welter, if you want to include that.
and the NEW
What about Robinson and Cocoa Kid, Holman Williams, let alone Charley Burley? Why did he fight all those other guys and NOT them, point that out to me Fitz, would you kindly? EVERY GUY IN HISTORY HAS HIS CRITICS AND 'DUCKS' MANY GUYS OR TAKES THEM 'OLD'. Get a grip and put it into perspective.

Mayweather has fought some very good (if not great) competition. Cotto had beaten who at the time? It is upto Cotto to proove himself (and he has now), not for Mayweather to fight every guy who calls him out who has NOT beaten ONE great fighter at the time!!!!!!!!

Hatton was the best at 140 (and had Tszyu as his credential), he fought him late, but he still fought him.

I think Mayweather should still fight Cotto now (that he has 'beaten' Mosley), Pac if he can beat Hatton (though Pac should fight JMM again) and Mosley.

Reason I worry about fighting Cotto, is if he tears him up, you will have all the cry baby haters and kids on this site (BigGeorge even admitted the other day if a fighter beat one of his favourites, he would HATE them, WTF is that, just LOL), talking about how Margarito ruined Cotto. His head was not the same, nor was his chin.......blah blah blah.

Just LOL.
and the NEW
Why I answer just one sentence of several? Because guys like Brad (who argue old-timers when they have NO CLUE, yet tell you how it is without any kind of knowledge), or guys like Streetlion or Torvix (I think it was) write BS that I don't feel the need to reply too.

Oh and Mayweather is hardly a legit welter if Hatton was not, again, JUST LOL.

On the Mosley case, I said what one guy said, PBF was P4P#1, if you want a year off, then take it, but don't say you weren't offered. MANY GREAT FIGHTERS, AGAIN IN HISTORY, MAYBE YOU SHOULD STUDY IT SOMETIME, call out guys when THEY want, not when the guy is ready after his year of relaxing and playing with his family and visits to the dentist.

I am not defending Mayweather, I am stating the truth. He still can fight Cotto (though not the best fight for him at the moment), Mosley and Pac if he wants to improve his legacy, full-stop, but the criticism he cops is unjustified, just typical childish flame wars which I try not to enter.

You want me to go on about the other BS written about certain fighters which I don't bother replying too?
Fitz
QUOTE(and the NEW @ Mar 13 2009, 11:40 AM) [snapback]427857[/snapback]
What about Robinson and Cocoa Kid, Holman Williams, let alone Charley Burley? Why did he fight all those other guys and NOT them, point that out to me Fitz, would you kindly? EVERY GUY IN HISTORY HAS HIS CRITICS AND 'DUCKS' MANY GUYS OR TAKES THEM 'OLD'. Get a grip and put it into perspective.

Mayweather has fought some very good (if not great) competition. Cotto had beaten who at the time? It is upto Cotto to proove himself (and he has now), not for Mayweather to fight every guy who calls him out who has NOT beaten one great fighter at the time!!!!!!!!

Hatton was the best at 140 (and had Tszyu as his credential), he fought him late, but he still fought him.


Your knowledge is deeper than mine when it comes to the old timers, so I probably won't have the best answer. But I know what you are saying. I know Mayweather fought good competition, but I am talking about his work done 140 and above.
You keep mentioning that who had Cotto beat at the time? But I am asking you, who had Judah beat at the time to warrant a fight? Who had Mitchell beat at the time to warrant a fight? Mayweather was the undisputed welterweight champion, Hatton had only one controversial win with Collazo, so who had Hatton beat at 147 to warrant a fight. You keep bringing up that Cotto hadn't beat anyone, but you haven't given a reason to who those other guys beat to warrant fights with Mayweather. The fact is, Cotto, Mosley, Margarito were all rated higher as welters than any of the fighters he fought at welter. You keep listing reasons to why Mayweather didn't fight certain guys, but the guys he fought were no better, or had better resumes than the people he did fight.
I will leave it as this is the classic section, and don't want to spoil it. But my point still stands. 130-135 Mayweather had a top resume, everything above that, Mayweather has taken the easy path, is yet to fight a big and legitimate welter.
Fitz
QUOTE(and the NEW @ Mar 13 2009, 11:45 AM) [snapback]427858[/snapback]
Oh and Mayweather is hardly a legit welter if Hatton was not, again, JUST LOL.

On the Mosley case, I said what one guy said, PBF was P4P#1, if you want a year off, then take it, but don't say you weren't offered. MANY GREAT FIGHTERS, AGAIN IN HISTORY, MAYBE YOU SHOULD STUDY IT SOMETIME, call out guys when THEY want, not when the guy is ready after his year of relaxing and playing with his family and visits to the dentist.


Mayweather was undisputed welterweight champion of the world. Hatton had one fight at 147 against Collazo. As 147 undisputed champion, he should fight top welters, not 140 fighters who's best resume at 147 is a controversial fight with Collazo. If he doesn't want to fight legit welters, why not just go back down to 140 and top guys, don't move up and give all small guys the opportunity and bigger guys like Margarito, Mosley, Cotto and Williams a pass.

Many great fighter in history call out guys when they want? Hmmmmmmm, I recall DLH calling out Mayweather the p4p #1 when he WANTED, Hahaha. DLH gave instructions and Mayweather obeyed. Maybe you are right when fighters back in the day fought for peanuts and being #1 meant you called shots, but not today. Like I just proved, it's a business and rankings don't always mean all that much, it's money. What about Pacquiao the p4p #1? Wasn't it DLH calling the shots?
Many great fighters today (eg-Hopkins for a long time, Wright, Marquez) didn't call the shots, a lot of the time it's the guy with the money that calls the shots, maybe you should study that sometime.
and the NEW
Judah had at least fought Tszyu and beaten Spinks, who also had a win over Mayorga.

Cotto had pretty ordinary competition to be honest, worse than Judah. Not worth the risk really, just as many other guys cop the same fate who are risky to face, and expect the best in the world just to get into the ring with them without first prooving why against top quality opposition themselves.

Mosley had the offer on the table against the P4P best in the world, if he jumped at it, Mayweather had no choice but to fight him.......Mitchell, Carlos, all those other guys you named were offered, and took it, that's why he fought them.

Sorry, I just hear so much complete and utter sh*t from boxing fans, that it pizzes me off that one of the greats of their time gets constantly criticised in his time, guess it happens to them all, but boxing fans need to learn the word respect, funny that fighters have so much, yet the fans are selfish, bias, hating, know-it-alls. Armchair critics at their finest.


Fitz
QUOTE(and the NEW @ Mar 13 2009, 12:18 PM) [snapback]427861[/snapback]
Judah had at least fought Tszyu and beaten Spinks, who also had a win over Mayorga.


Read that carefully man. You are using boxing maths to justify Judah? He fought Tszyu? So what he got embarrassed big time in that second round. Getting embarrassed by a good fighter doesn't count for much. He also lost to Spinks once as well, and the Spinks is his one and only good win for his career. Mayorga has nothing to do with this. Plus, I have no idea why you brought up Tszyu, even if he did win that was at 140. They fought at 147.
So do you think Jones beating Trinidad at 170 is good because Trinidad fought good fighters at 147? We are judging fighters as fighters in that current weight class, not what they done 3 divisions below or 3 years ago.

QUOTE(and the NEW @ Mar 13 2009, 12:18 PM) [snapback]427861[/snapback]
Cotto had pretty ordinary competition to be honest, worse than Judah. Not worth the risk really, just as many other guys cop the same fate who are risky to face, and expect the best in the world just to get into the ring with them without first prooving why against top quality opposition themselves.


Probably had something to do with Cotto only being a prospect at the time. None the less, he now has wins over Mosley and Judah now. He is already greater than Judah will ever be. Did you see after the Mayweather-Hatton fight, that when ever Cotto was mentioned, Mayweather changed the subject, when asked about a possible fight he wouldn't even mention Cotto's name. He wasn't interested.

QUOTE(and the NEW @ Mar 13 2009, 12:18 PM) [snapback]427861[/snapback]
Mosley had the offer on the table against the P4P best in the world, if he jumped at it, Mayweather had no choice but to fight him.......Mitchell, Carlos, all those other guys you named were offered, and took it, that's why he fought them.


Like I said, Mosley was a bigger name than Mayweather up until that point, as Mayweather hadn't fought DLH or Hatton up until that point. In this case, Mayweather wasn't even in a position to be calling shots as (not that I am saying it's right), the money comes before rankings, and Mosley was the draw. Just like DLH was a bigger name and was calling shots to the p4p #1, Mosley was in a similar position.
How come it was reverse, and it was DLH putting offers on the table to the p4p #1? I thought you said it was p4p #1 that called shots? Didn't seem like the case here, and it wouldn't have been the case with Mosley at the time as Mosley was the house hold name.
Yeah, they took the offer alright, but like a lot have been saying, a lot of better fighters at 147 were NEVER given an offer. How strange that B level fighters were given the opportunity.

QUOTE(and the NEW @ Mar 13 2009, 12:18 PM) [snapback]427861[/snapback]
Sorry, I just hear so much complete and utter sh*t from boxing fans, that it pizzes me off that one of the greats of their time gets constantly criticised in his time, guess it happens to them all, but boxing fans need to learn the word respect, funny that fighters have so much, yet the fans are selfish, bias, hating, know-it-alls. Armchair critics at their finest.


Yes there is a lot of shit, and I agree Mayweather is one of the greats of our time. But he is criticised for good reason for his career at 140 and 147. Fighters have so much respect? You aren't serious with that are you? Mayweather is one of the most disrespectful fighters. Don't know how you can say that.
JonnyBlaze
All I got to say is Cotto,Floyd,and Judah don't belong in here..LaMotta vs. Hearns was the topic and this is classic boxing..How the fuck did they get in here??I'm not gonna go back but did someone try to compare one of those 3 to either of those guys??
and the NEW
Fighters in general have a lot of respect, far moreso than fans.

DLH is an anomoly, we are talking about Mayweather, who was the P4P best at the time and we are talking about him calling shots against a guy like Mosley who hadn't had a big win in a while or a Cotto who hadn't had a big win full-stop.

Cotto had NO name on his resume, he hadn't even RISKED fighting a guy the quality of Tszyu, now he was in a position to call out Mayweather and be 'ducked'? WTF. I'm not saying Judah was better, but he at least risked his azz before going to call out P4P #1s and have fans have the nerve to say he was ducked. Now don't talk to me about Margarito and Williams who were the next big hype and still hadn't prooved a thing. I've already spotted a Williams V Hagler thread on one site, I mean, MY GOD, the hide of some of these fans.

I don't disagree, Cotto is a good opponent now. It's only bias, whinging, excuse making fans that will say Cotto was shot afterwards.
Fitz
QUOTE(and the NEW @ Mar 13 2009, 12:47 PM) [snapback]427868[/snapback]
Cotto had NO name on his resume, he hadn't even RISKED fighting a guy the quality of Tszyu, now he was in a position to call out Mayweather and be 'ducked'? WTF. I'm not saying Judah was better, but he at least risked his azz before going to call out P4P #1s and have fans have the nerve to say he was ducked. Now don't talk to me about Margarito and Williams who were the next big hype and still hadn't prooved a thing. I've already spotted a Williams V Hagler thread on one site, I mean, MY GOD, the hide of some of these fans.

I don't disagree, Cotto is a good opponent now. It's only bias, whinging, excuse making fans that will say Cotto was shot afterwards.


Haha. Like I said you keep mentioning how Cotto had no name on his resume, what names did Gatti and Cotto's sparring partner (Brusseles), and Corley have? lol. Usually when you are a prospect and green, you don't always fight guys like Tszyu, with experience Cotto has now fought Mosley. Comes with experience, plus Cotto was never, ever in a position to fight Tszyu. Tszyu was at the tail end of his career and lost to Hatton, while Cotto was still learning the ropes.
Cool, so I can't talk tou you about Williams or Margarito, but you are happy to talk about Corley, Mitchell (after he lost to Tszyu and was finished), Brusseles and Gatti? lol. Hype or not, those guys are better than every guy I just mentioned and there are no ifs or buts about that.
By the way, I'm not saying Mayweather should have specifically fought Cotto, I'm just saying that there are a handful of names that were A LOT better than some names he fought since his move up to 140.
Fitz
QUOTE(JonnyBlaze @ Mar 13 2009, 12:46 PM) [snapback]427867[/snapback]
All I got to say is Cotto,Floyd,and Judah don't belong in here..LaMotta vs. Hearns was the topic and this is classic boxing..How the fuck did they get in here??I'm not gonna go back but did someone try to compare one of those 3 to either of those guys??


Stevenski and ATN began it.
and the NEW
DLH was worse than Cotto at the time? OK.

Judah was just as big as Cotto at the time following his Spinks win. It was practically already done until Carlos beat him, but Mayweather fought them both. No, not great competition, but again, Cotto wasn't either.

The rest, yes, not good competition, but how about Hatton? Why did Cotto not fight him himself? Even go to England and do it? As if. He has now fought Mosley and so I say, Mayweather should fight him, but that is now, not then.

At 147, AT THE TIME, Judah and Carlos (after he beat Judah), were considered the best or right up there with them. Since it was Judah and Spinks pretty much fighting for that title.

Anyways, that is enough of this BS nit picking debate, could a mod please delete it. Reminds me of why I hate this place, infact, someone just ban me please. I'll go elsewhere.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE(and the NEW @ Mar 13 2009, 01:18 AM) [snapback]427861[/snapback]
Judah had at least fought Tszyu and beaten Spinks, who also had a win over Mayorga.


That first sentence makes little sense considering he lost to both guys one in highlight reel embarrasing fashion.

QUOTE(Fitz @ Mar 13 2009, 01:55 AM) [snapback]427872[/snapback]
Stevenski and ATN began it.


I said Walker was not like today's catchweight fighters he fought guys at 175 rather than 170 etc etc.


Now back on track since we are talking about PBF Walker would have brutally destroyed PBF 10 out of 10 times.


JonnyBlaze
QUOTE(STEVENSKI @ Mar 13 2009, 01:05 AM) [snapback]427907[/snapback]
That first sentence makes little sense considering he lost to both guys one in highlight reel embarrasing fashion.
I said Walker was not like today's catchweight fighters he fought guys at 175 rather than 170 etc etc.
Now back on track since we are talking about PBF Walker would have brutally destroyed PBF 10 out of 10 times.

Oh aight..If it was a comparison or match up,whatever..I thought it just came up outta the blue..I just didn't want to have to go back and try to find out..
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