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JLUVBABY
QUOTE(damarvelous1 @ Mar 22 2009, 09:38 PM) [snapback]429353[/snapback]
Yep. Chris Arreola was fighting at 160 when he first started. LOL


lmao!!!!
Big Slim Sweet
QUOTE(damarvelous1 @ Mar 22 2009, 01:29 PM) [snapback]429285[/snapback]
I think what gets lost here in this argument about Floyd is that he is not a "True" welterweight. We forget the work he has done at prior weight classes.

We constantly call on him to fight guys like Margarito and Paul Williams then frown when we here names like Pacquiao and JMM. In reality, Margarito and PWill hold the same size advantage over Floyd that Floyd holds over JMM and MAnny Pac. As much as I hate Calzaghe, I'll defend him the same way... Let them fight who they choose to fight. Both fighters of done a lot and proven to be great champions. I get mad at Floyd all the time because I believe he can accomplish much more than he has. But you know what... No matter who he beats at this stage, you will still have people hating. If he beats Cotto, then Margarito took a lot out of Cotto. If he beats Mosley then Mosley was past his prime. If he beats Margarito then it was because Mosley exposed him. If he beats PWill then it's, well Quintana already exposed him. Give it a rest. IF Mayweather comes back he wll be challenging the top 2 P4P fighters in the world. (Pac and JMM), I see no harm in that. Despite what many believe, Mayweather is the biggest name in the sport right now, so let him fight whoever. One thing is for sure... Whoever he fights it will be an event and Millions of people will watch in hopes that Mayweather loses.

Marv I don't mean to pick on you specifically here but I am so sick of this argument from the Mayweather apologists (note I didn't call you a nuthugger). I know I'm considered one of the PBF "haters" around here but I have said countless times if he were to beat say Mosley and Cotto I would give him all the credit in the world. And I know I'm not alone. I might still hate him, but I would give him his props. But this, 'Oh the haters will never give him credit for fighting the big boys so he may as well just keep beating up on the little guys' is some bullshit! If you fight as a motherfucking welterweight, fight a motherfucking welterweight! If he wants to fight lightweights and junior welters, fine, fight as a lightweight or a junior welter. Shit, Shane started his career as a lightweight too so how is the argument for him any different?? Floyd hasn't fought under welterweight since he busted up Gatti nearly 4 years ago. I know this is all speculative anyway since we still don't know for sure that he's even fighting again, but if he is coming back, and he is planning to fight at 147, he needs to see the real 147 challengers. That means Mosley, Cotto, Clottey, Berto, etc. And if he does come back and whips a couple of them, I will give him full credit for doing it. I'm not even saying I don't necessarily think he can come back and beat everyone I'm just tired of him getting a fucking pass from people for saying he would do it and then not doing shit.
hardhead
QUOTE(Big Slim @ Mar 23 2009, 06:08 PM) [snapback]429392[/snapback]
Marv I don't mean to pick on you specifically here but I am so sick of this argument from the Mayweather apologists (note I didn't call you a nuthugger). I know I'm considered one of the PBF "haters" around here but I have said countless times if he were to beat say Mosley and Cotto I would give him all the credit in the world. And I know I'm not alone. I might still hate him, but I would give him his props. But this, 'Oh the haters will never give him credit for fighting the big boys so he may as well just keep beating up on the little guys' is some bullshit! If you fight as a motherfucking welterweight, fight a motherfucking welterweight! If he wants to fight lightweights and junior welters, fine, fight as a lightweight or a junior welter. Shit, Shane started his career as a lightweight too so how is the argument for him any different?? Floyd hasn't fought under welterweight since he busted up Gatti nearly 4 years ago. I know this is all speculative anyway since we still don't know for sure that he's even fighting again, but if he is coming back, and he is planning to fight at 147, he needs to see the real 147 challengers. That means Mosley, Cotto, Clottey, Berto, etc. And if he does come back and whips a couple of them, I will give him full credit for doing it. I'm not even saying I don't necessarily think he can come back and beat everyone I'm just tired of him getting a fucking pass from people for saying he would do it and then not doing shit.



I agree pretty much, even though I wouldn't call myself a real Mayweather "hater" I'm sure people think I am since I have heavily criticized the way he dismissed challenges/fighters out there because they didn't make him 20 mill or because they weren't good enough for him to even acknowledge. I just see Mayweather as a very talented and highly skilled fighter that has the potential to achieve so much more than what he's already achieved. If he comes back and makes a couple of these fights with the welters and the Pacquiao's or Marquez's I'll give him tons of credit. Because when it's all said and done I don't care about who's my favorite fighter or who I hate or love, I just LOVE boxing and I LOVE greatness and Mayweather has the ability and the opponents to be considered a top ATG, not on skills but on accomplishments, while still making money in the process. Most of the fights out there will or can make very good money because fans have been dying to see them for a couple years.


Bottom line, Floyd can do whatever the fuck he wants obviously, he doesn't give a shit about my opinion BUT all of his 10 fans shouldn't cry foul if fans of boxing like me, don't praise everything he does or hand him victories over the fighters he didn't want to fight for whatever reasons.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE(Big Slim @ Mar 23 2009, 01:08 PM) [snapback]429392[/snapback]
Marv I don't mean to pick on you specifically here but I am so sick of this argument from the Mayweather apologists (note I didn't call you a nuthugger). I know I'm considered one of the PBF "haters" around here but I have said countless times if he were to beat say Mosley and Cotto I would give him all the credit in the world. And I know I'm not alone. I might still hate him, but I would give him his props. But this, 'Oh the haters will never give him credit for fighting the big boys so he may as well just keep beating up on the little guys' is some bullshit! If you fight as a motherfucking welterweight, fight a motherfucking welterweight! If he wants to fight lightweights and junior welters, fine, fight as a lightweight or a junior welter. Shit, Shane started his career as a lightweight too so how is the argument for him any different?? Floyd hasn't fought under welterweight since he busted up Gatti nearly 4 years ago. I know this is all speculative anyway since we still don't know for sure that he's even fighting again, but if he is coming back, and he is planning to fight at 147, he needs to see the real 147 challengers. That means Mosley, Cotto, Clottey, Berto, etc. And if he does come back and whips a couple of them, I will give him full credit for doing it. I'm not even saying I don't necessarily think he can come back and beat everyone I'm just tired of him getting a fucking pass from people for saying he would do it and then not doing shit.


my question to you slim is why would he need to beat one of those guys to get credit?.. i will understand you saying you will give him credit at welterweight but his pedigree was already sealed.. its funny to me that people seem to forget mayweathers pre welter weight days... i will go down the list and while you can argue some names werent all time greats a few are potential h.o.fers... starting with genero hernandez for the 130 title (great fighter), he racked off defenses including angel manfredy, angel hernandez, jesus chavez, gregorio vargas, justin juuko, diego corrales, joes luis castillo (for the light weight title) twice (and i will say i thought castillo won the first fight, i do), amongst a few other guys he fought.. there was even a k.o of emanuel augustas (if i remember that was a non title defense but still a very high quality win)... and let me also say those wins where over those guys when they where young fresh contenders at the top of their game... then he moves (now on the money hunt chasing hoya as he had already started calling hoya out at 135... up to 140 with a couple of wins one over corley before battering gatti... after gatti he crucifies sharmba mitchell, then beats balomir for the LINEAR title... after baldomir he fights and beats hoya who was not considered the shot fighter he is now at 154 pounds for hoya title...and he beat him... you can argue he was tired or bored with boxing when he fought hoya because of the way he fought him but he fought on and k.o'd hatton... with a reported $20 million on the table for the rematch with hoya he retires... i listed the time line for a reason.. that is a more than solid career and not many fighters can go through that list of opponents without a loss (castillo fight aside)... it just bafflesme how the early days of his career seem to be forgotten and the way he won those fight seem to be forgotten... dieggo corrales was undefeated knocking everybody out and supposed to be the guy to clean mayweathers clock... his clock got cleaned in a very one sided fashion... would i like to see him fight the rest of the elite welters?.. hell yeah.. but he dont have to fight them to prove his legacy... his legacy is set... in my opinion.
dbdbdb
QUOTE(hardhead @ Mar 23 2009, 05:15 PM) [snapback]429404[/snapback]
BUT all of his 10 fans shouldn't cry foul if fans of boxing like me, don't praise everything he does or hand him victories over the fighters he didn't want to fight for whatever reasons.


That was a funny line laugh.gif
Big Slim Sweet
QUOTE(JLUVBABY @ Mar 23 2009, 05:19 PM) [snapback]429405[/snapback]
my question to you slim is why would he need to beat one of those guys to get credit?.. i will understand you saying you will give him credit at welterweight but his pedigree was already sealed.. its funny to me that people seem to forget mayweathers pre welter weight days... i will go down the list and while you can argue some names werent all time greats a few are potential h.o.fers... starting with genero hernandez for the 130 title (great fighter), he racked off defenses including angel manfredy, angel hernandez, jesus chavez, gregorio vargas, justin juuko, diego corrales, joes luis castillo (for the light weight title) twice (and i will say i thought castillo won the first fight, i do), amongst a few other guys he fought.. there was even a k.o of emanuel augustas (if i remember that was a non title defense but still a very high quality win)... and let me also say those wins where over those guys when they where young fresh contenders at the top of their game... then he moves (now on the money hunt chasing hoya as he had already started calling hoya out at 135... up to 140 with a couple of wins one over corley before battering gatti... after gatti he crucifies sharmba mitchell, then beats balomir for the LINEAR title... after baldomir he fights and beats hoya who was not considered the shot fighter he is now at 154 pounds for hoya title...and he beat him... you can argue he was tired or bored with boxing when he fought hoya because of the way he fought him but he fought on and k.o'd hatton... with a reported $20 million on the table for the rematch with hoya he retires... i listed the time line for a reason.. that is a more than solid career and not many fighters can go through that list of opponents without a loss (castillo fight aside)... it just bafflesme how the early days of his career seem to be forgotten and the way he won those fight seem to be forgotten... dieggo corrales was undefeated knocking everybody out and supposed to be the guy to clean mayweathers clock... his clock got cleaned in a very one sided fashion... would i like to see him fight the rest of the elite welters?.. hell yeah.. but he dont have to fight them to prove his legacy... his legacy is set... in my opinion.

JLUV I haven't forgotten what Mayweather did at the lighter weights. I used to be a huge fan of his in those days. He was awesome, fought 3-4 times a year and whipped up on everybody. He doesn't need to do a damn thing in those lighter weights to prove his legacy or get the credit he deserves.

But what he's done since 2004 has been a lot of smoke and mirrors IMO. He's had some nice fights in there. Zab and Hatton I'd say being his best during that time, but overall his mouth's been writing a bunch of checks his ass hasn't cared much to cash. And as a fan of boxing that bugs me, especially since you've got people willing to grant him de facto wins over guys he's refused to step in the ring with and fight. How many times have I heard someone say Floyd beats everyone from 154 on down? I want to see him prove that. As a fan of boxing. What's wrong with that?
JLUVBABY
QUOTE(Big Slim @ Mar 23 2009, 05:06 PM) [snapback]429410[/snapback]
JLUV I haven't forgotten what Mayweather did at the lighter weights. I used to be a huge fan of his in those days. He was awesome, fought 3-4 times a year and whipped up on everybody. He doesn't need to do a damn thing in those lighter weights to prove his legacy or get the credit he deserves.

But what he's done since 2004 has been a lot of smoke and mirrors IMO. He's had some nice fights in there. Zab and Hatton I'd say being his best during that time, but overall his mouth's been writing a bunch of checks his ass hasn't cared much to cash. And as a fan of boxing that bugs me, especially since you've got people willing to grant him de facto wins over guys he's refused to step in the ring with and fight. How many times have I heard someone say Floyd beats everyone from 154 on down? I want to see him prove that. As a fan of boxing. What's wrong with that?


i actually agree with you and i even say it in my post that i for sure want to see him fight some or most of those guys at welterweight.. i just get turned back when people say (not you just in general) that HE HASNT DONE ANYTHING.. he did his thing... what he did pre welterweight was marvelous... and his win over hoya i think was pretty good too.. my point is that while yes i would like to see those fights IN MY OPINION he already has props for what he did.. he is one of the greatest jr. lightweights ever.. he was scary back in those days and i have if not all those fights i have most of them including his pro debut... he was a site to see.. i think the problem with mayweather is as he moved up he didnt bring the power like mosely and hoya and that might be his draw back from making some of those fights.. i dont know not making an excuse for him.. i actually think he can beat most of those guys off skill alone.. for some its boring... i appreciate that type of safe boxing.. i love the knockout but i also enjoy that game of cat an mouse as well... i can tell you this... IF he comes back and these fights start getting made its gonna be funny to sit back and watch the board on the fight night cuzz he's not gonna let none of them become great fights.. he's gonn box and pop shot and shoulder roll those guys to death all night long...lol.. he dont have the punch to effectively clean those guys clocks like he did at lower weights. hatton was caught just right coming in... to put what i am saying into perspective lets say this was back in the day and mayweather fights hatton at 135 that fight dont go 6 rounds... again that is just my opinion...lol...
Big Slim Sweet
QUOTE(Fitz @ Mar 23 2009, 05:47 PM) [snapback]429408[/snapback]
Well said man, and that's it in a nutshell. You fight at 147, you were undisputed 147 champion you should fight guys at 147. It's that simple. People go on how Mayweather didn't start his career as a welter weight, like you mentioned, look where Mosley started. Look where DLH started as well.

It seems so logical and simple, doesn't it?
JLUVBABY
i actually understand what you guys are saying.. i'm not saying you guys (slim and fitz) are wrong or right.. i am saying that while i would like to see mayweather fight those guys i dont think he needs to fight them to seal his legacy as far as what he has already accomplished... i think mayweather and his people know he didnt carry the weight and more importantly the punch up in weight like mosely and hoya and thats why the fights havent been made with the bigger welters, he is a puny welterweight (that is not me defending him that is what it is)... they made the money fights and cashed out.. thats my point... there is nothing more that i would like to see other than floyd and mosely or floyd and cotto and most of all floyd and williams.. but i dont think that was ever the idea for him moving up (he didnt move up with welter weight domination in mind)... call it what you want but thats what i always gathered from his moving up in weight... and IF he comes back the fights i think he is more likely to target will be marquez and the winner of pac and hatton... only after that maybe we will see him step up to the big boys... i could be wrong but judging by his actions in the past that is what i see... AND LETS SAY THIS THIS IS ALL SPECULATION CUZZ AS OF RIGHT NOW HE IS STILL RETIRED....lol.. wouldnt it be something if after all this talk it was all a bunch of b.s?...
D-MARV
Im not giving Mayweather a pass for this. My whole point is that he will always have his haters! Maybe not you Slim, but a lot of "Floyd Haters" would discredit anything he does. When you look at Floyd's resume, the man has accomplished a lot. When Floyd got a questionable nod against Castillo, what did he do? He rematched him and beat him clearly. When Corrales was among the baddest fighters on the earth, what did Floyd do? he spanked him. Since Floyd was at 130, he constantly called out De La Hoya. That was his plan from the start. Floyd has had a great career... not All time great, but great career. But I think the hate for him goes beyond anything. I don't see anyone knocking Marvin Halger for fighting Hearns and Duran...


My point is this... No matter who Floyd fights, people will find a way to discredit him. Floyd may possibly fight the 2 best p4p fighters in the world... God forbid anyone for calling out Hopkins for fighting De La Hoya and Trinidad. Floyd has done a lot in this game and he still remains the biggest name in the sport. Boxers fighting people below their weight class has been going on for years. Hagler did it, Hopkins did it, and many more have done it. The shit has been going on for years!
JLUVBABY
QUOTE(damarvelous1 @ Mar 23 2009, 06:21 PM) [snapback]429422[/snapback]
Im not giving Mayweather a pass for this. My whole point is that he will always have his haters! Maybe not you Slim, but a lot of "Floyd Haters" would discredit anything he does. When you look at Floyd's resume, the man has accomplished a lot. When Floyd got a questionable nod against Castillo, what did he do? He rematched him and beat him clearly. When Corrales was among the baddest fighters on the earth, what did Floyd do? he spanked him. Since Floyd was at 130, he constantly called out De La Hoya. That was his plan from the start. Floyd has had a great career... not All time great, but great career. But I think the hate for him goes beyond anything. I don't see anyone knocking Marvin Halger for fighting Hearns and Duran...
My point is this... No matter who Floyd fights, people will find a way to discredit him. Floyd may possibly fight the 2 best p4p fighters in the world... God forbid anyone for calling out Hopkins for fighting De La Hoya and Trinidad. Floyd has done a lot in this game and he still remains the biggest name in the sport. Boxers fighting people below their weight class has been going on for years. Hagler did it, Hopkins did it, and many more have done it. The shit has been going on for years!


i'm not giving him a pass dmarv but it think what i say holds at least some water... its based on my opinions mixed in what i believe to be facts...
D-MARV
If Floyd did come back and Fight Mosley and Cotto then that would be great. But if he doesn't and fights guys like JMM and Pac then I just don't get how that makes him a pussy or a coward. I just dont.
hardhead
I'm excited about a potential Mayweather/Pacquiao fight and I wouldn't knock him for fighting Pacquiao That's a MEGA FIGHT for boxing with Floyd being the former P4P and Pacquiao being the current. That doesn't happen all that often. Even though I don't really care as much for a Marquez fight, he is still one of the top P4P guys so that would be a a future HOFer on Floyd's resume, and two highly skilled fighters going at it. It would be a very good win no doubt about it. If I had it my way though I'd like to see mayweather at the very LEAST fight Mosley(after he's done with either Marquez or Pacquiao) since he is considered one of the best welterweights around and since both guys generally fought in the same time span/decade when we look back we know how a fight with those two would've went down.

I hope all this talk is true of Mayweather coming back against Marquez for a "tuneup" bout. That's a fight Floyd can win and get some good rounds in against a world class opponent before he moves on to bigger fights(Mosley, Pacquiao, Cotto etc).

All I know is there a bunch of potential matchups that are interesting. I'll put it like this, as long as it aint DLH or Hatton rematches I don't really give a fuck.

torvix2000
QUOTE(damarvelous1 @ Mar 23 2009, 11:21 PM) [snapback]429422[/snapback]
Im not giving Mayweather a pass for this. My whole point is that he will always have his haters! Maybe not you Slim, but a lot of "Floyd Haters" would discredit anything he does.


Of course. He will have his detractors. Great fighters try to minimize them. WTH! You can even find SRR's detractors. Problem with Floyd is that he "said himself" he doesn't care about them. Right. But too much "no care" hurts his legacy.
Sugar Q
QUOTE(hardhead @ Mar 23 2009, 08:13 PM) [snapback]429430[/snapback]
I'm excited about a potential Mayweather/Pacquiao fight and I wouldn't knock him for fighting Pacquiao That's a MEGA FIGHT for boxing with Floyd being the former P4P and Pacquiao being the current. That doesn't happen all that often. Even though I don't really care as much for a Marquez fight, he is still one of the top P4P guys so that would be a a future HOFer on Floyd's resume, and two highly skilled fighters going at it. It would be a very good win no doubt about it. If I had it my way though I'd like to see mayweather at the very LEAST fight Mosley(after he's done with either Marquez or Pacquiao) since he is considered one of the best welterweights around and since both guys generally fought in the same time span/decade when we look back we know how a fight with those two would've went down.

I hope all this talk is true of Mayweather coming back against Marquez for a "tuneup" bout. That's a fight Floyd can win and get some good rounds in against a world class opponent before he moves on to bigger fights(Mosley, Pacquiao, Cotto etc).

All I know is there a bunch of potential matchups that are interesting. I'll put it like this, as long as it aint DLH or Hatton rematches I don't really give a fuck.



I agree. Well said.
hardhead
I think it's very possible that both Mayweather and Mosley might be looking for a fight come fall. If Pacquiao beats Hatton and Cotto beats Clotty there's a possibility that Cotto and Pacquiao could be matched up since both are with Arum and in recent interviews Arum has stated that that's what his plans are(and Arum, snake that he is, probably still holds a grudge against Mayweather). If that happens it might make the most sense for Mayweather and Mosley to fight with the winner possibly moving on to fight that winner of Cotto/Pacquiao.


Of course if Hatton beats Pacquiao I could possibly see Mosley and Hatton fighting since both are promoted by Golden Boy. That would leave Mayweather possibly looking at the winner of Cotto/Clotty or maybe a Paul Williams or maybe Mosley turns down Hatton to face Mayweather instead. Just throwing out any possible scenario I can think of here..

Looking at all those scenarios a Pacquiao win over Hatton opens up more possibilities IMO.
King Eugene
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but I think a lot of people's argument isn't that he wasn't a good lightweight cause everybody knows his achievements there. I believe more people are upset at the fact that he went up in weight just chasing the big fights but not wanting to defend at that level. Its almost like maxing out on the bench press at 300lbs but not wanting to do the 300lbs workout the next week. Am I making any since? I guess those who lift would probably understand more than those who dont. IDK dntknw.gif

I also understand that if he challenges these smaller guys he should go down to their weight. I think if they challenge him, they should move up to his weight. At the end of the day its all about the money. To Mayweather if it dont make money it done make sense. If Pac-Man or Marquez moving up to 147 to challenge him makes him more money than fighting Mosley you know thats who he's going to fight. He probably feel that he's sealed his legacy by the achievements he had a lower weights. The thing is he just stopped being a fan pleaser and started to be a Mayweather pleaser. Selfish it is but I totally understand.
D-MARV
QUOTE(Fitz @ Mar 23 2009, 09:27 PM) [snapback]429439[/snapback]
He doesn't, but it could make the difference in being a top 40-60 of all time to a top 20-40. If he is content to take it easier, not push himself to the limit and try become greater, that's fair enough. Just Floyd fans should be prepared to be continually shut down when we don't put him up with some other names.
I do if he fights them at 147. As it would be another fight where Floyd is at 147 and continues fighting other guys that aren't really 147 fighters. If he moves down to 140 fine, but it's easy to see how it's a coward move if he continues with the same trend.

So Fitz you're also calling Hopkins a pussy?
King Eugene
QUOTE(Fitz @ Mar 23 2009, 11:30 PM) [snapback]429448[/snapback]
Or if people in his own class challenge him, he can just stay there and fight them.
I could put any amount of money on that a fight with Marquez wouldn't earn more than Mosley or Cotto, lol.

Never said it would. I said if it did then I would understand. What some guys fail to understand or understand but hates is the fact that Mayweather is chasing fights to add to his legacy. He is looking for fights that will add to his bank account. Most of you guys want to see him fight guys that are going to pleasing to you. He is only looking to fight fights that is pleasing to his bank account. More than likely the same reason Mosley isn't fighting Berto. Berto doesn't bring enough money to the table for him. I bet if Mayweather is offered more than 15 Million to fight Mosley that fight will be made quick fast.
King Eugene
It tends to happen more with the older fighters not necessarily fighting the best competition out because they felt they have paid their dues now they want to get paid. I mean in a way can we not get on Hopkins for fighting Pavlik and making him come up instead of pursuing one of the light heavyweights besides a Calzaghe rematch? No one at light heavy would have brung him more money than fighting Pavlik would have would it? Then again I could be wrong but its just my opinion.
King Eugene
QUOTE(Fitz @ Mar 23 2009, 11:40 PM) [snapback]429451[/snapback]
Exactly, so why do the Mayweather cock jokey's try to pass it off that he is going for greatness and a fight with Marquez isn't worse than a fight with Cotto or Mosley. If Mayweather fans just agree with us, we wouldn't be having this argument. I am actually agreeing with what you are saying, I am actually arguing with people trying to make it into him going for greatness or what ever it is some people are trying to say to defend him.

Thats cause the ones that think like that have tunnel vision. For a while I was like that with Roy and everyone on here knows that. laugh.gif I use to think he could do know wrong.
torvix2000
QUOTE(3King3 @ Mar 24 2009, 02:27 AM) [snapback]429444[/snapback]
I also understand that if he challenges these smaller guys he should go down to their weight. I think if they challenge him, they should move up to his weight.


LOL! Somebody is challenging Mayweather and at the same time Mayweather is handicapping the challenger. Kinda like asking a topnotch chess master better than you and that topnotch chess master is sort of asking you to be rookless, or knightless. LOL!
BigG
I agree that Mayweather needs to fight Shane, Cotto, Or Pacquiao...

But Fitz, stop acting like Floyd picked on a smaller guy moving up in Hatton. Floyd is ALSO a small welterweight clearly..who began at 130...and who comes into fights at 147-149 pounds....just like Manny Pacquiao and Joan Guzman. Floyd is NO bigger than Hatton. He only has a slight height advantage but they look the same size.....

For all of you people saying Floyd should fight Paul Williams instead of Pacquiao and Marquez...I got news for you.Williams is 6 foot fucking 3 or 4....skillwise, he is NOT Marquez and Pacquiao. Marquez and Pacquiao are CLOSER to Mayweather in size and skill and they are more interesting fights than the OVERRATED Williams. I got ALOT more intesrest in Cotto, Pacquiao, Mosley, Marquez fights and they would mean more to Mayweather's legacy...
Lil-lightsout
It is actually pretty simple, Mosley is the best active Welterweight in the world right now. PBF should fight the best Welterweight if he truly wants to be recognized as the best Welterweight. Look, Floyd fought at Welterweight for years now, he is a freaking Welterweight already. If he wants to get down to 140 pounds like other Jr. Welterweights, THEN he can be considered not a Welterweight. All this talk about him being a small or not a natural Welterweight is all BS to me. When Floyd comes in on weigh in day and weighs 140 lbs, then I will say he is no longer a welterweight. Now as PBF has been established as a true Welterweight, lets hope he can fight some other Welterweights. Fight Mosley, Cotto, Berto, Collazo,etc, just an established Welterweight. Should Chad Dawson start looking for super middleweights to fight?

Also, I do not give a shit if PBF did not bring his punch up with him. That does not mean he gets a pass to look for smaller type fighters. Pernell Whitaker moved up from lightweight, having little power in his arsenal, and took on undefeated prime fighters in ODLH and Trinidad at Welterweight!!! Thats what made Whitaker and Floyd different, Pernell actually wanted to fight the best regardless of what weight, and he did it when he was no longer in his prime.
D-MARV
QUOTE(Fitz @ Mar 23 2009, 11:36 PM) [snapback]429450[/snapback]
Wow. No offence but this is really, really stupid. You usually don't come up with things this ridiculous and I don't even know why I should comment on this, but I will. You seriously can't be comparing Floyd to Hopkins in going for challenges, lol.

First Hopkins was a middleweight champion that took on everyone (a couple of those were smaller guys like DLH and Trinidad), he deserves credit for the Trinidad win and not so much with DLH. He ducked nobody at 160, fought Taylor. Try come up with someone he should have fought at 160 but didn't? That's right you can't.

At 41 years old, he moved up 2 weight classes and was a BIG underdog and took on Tarver, the guy considered the man. He didn't jump up 2 weight classes to fight a Corley, Gatti, Brusseles type of fighter to test the waters, he jumped up and fought the top light heavy. He then fought Winky, and Pavlik. He also fought Calzaghe, who you can't say was the smaller man. After all it was Hopkins campaigning at 160 and Calzaghe at 168, Hopkins just skipped 168.
Now he is trying to move up again in weight to crusier to fight the MAN there in Adamek.
Remind me once again how this is anything similar to what Floyd is doing?

Fitz,
the only comparison I'm making between Floyd and BHop is that they both fought smaller guys at a higher weight. I don't see why Floyd gets knocked for a fight with JMM or Manny Pac. They are the top 2 P4P best. When Arum mentioned a fight between Cotto and Manny Pac, no one called Cotto a pussy. We all give BHop props for his win over Pavlik but then hate on floyd's win over Hatton. That's BULLSHIT to me.
D-MARV
QUOTE(Fitz @ Mar 24 2009, 06:12 AM) [snapback]429478[/snapback]
Sheesh. Why would they call Cotto a pussy? He has fought Mosley, fought Margarito and now even looking at Clottey. In terms of fighting some top welters, Mayweather and Cotto aren't even comparable, Hopkins and Mayweather aren't comparable either.
Mayweather at welter fought Baldomir, Judah and Hatton, while Cotto has fought Mosley, Quintana, Margarito, Judah and possibly Clottey. So I fail to see why they should call Cotto a pussy.
Once again, I am talking about Mayweather's work at 140 and 147 only. He was great as a 130 and 135 fighter, all I'm saying is that his run since moving up hasn't been that impressive, not by his standards anyways.

Im not calling Cotto a pussy either nor calling Floyd an All Time great at 147. again, my point is that Floyd gets knocked for every move he makes. When Floyd skipped over Hatton at 140, he was ducking him, then he decides to fight him and knocks him out then it's oh well... it was at 147. So fucking what. If they fought at 140, you would get the same outcome. Floyd beat Zab and gets knocked for it because Zab isn't a natural welterweight... Cotto beats Zab and gets all the credit in the world. I understand that Cotto's resume is far more impressive @ 147 than Floyd's. Im not arguing that... Im just saying that any move Floyd makes he will get discredit for. Just like Calzaghe... he gets knocked for all the shit he does too. He beat Kessler and all of sudden Kessler isn''t that good. He beat Hopkins (which he did) and gets no credit for it because it was a close fight, LOL. Some fighters get the cold shoulder for everything they do.
D-MARV
QUOTE(Fitz @ Mar 24 2009, 07:16 AM) [snapback]429483[/snapback]
By the way, I know it doesn't matter whether he fought Hatton at 140 or 147, he was always going to win and I give him credit for that. Great win, and looked impressive and I said he looked good on day one. I don't think Floyd ducked Hatton either, when they were at 140, Hatton said he wasn't ready for Floyd and needed a couple more fights and he did have a few more fights, but it happened at 147.
By the way, I am not knocking Floyd for beating Zab, that's fine. What I am knocking is that he hasn't fought certain guys. I just don't see why he feels the need to quickly step up to the plate when Hatton talks about him, Judah talks about him, and now there is Marquez and he said something like "be careful with what you wish for". While others may have talked about him, but he isn't so lippy back, or he says "who are they"? Like I said, Hatton and Judah are fine, but there are some more testing fighters than them yet still hasn't taken them.
For the record, I don't think there is one guy that I would pick against Floyd other than Williams. I would pick Mayweather over Cotto and Mosley, but I still want to see the fights, I think it would be interesting to see and it would sure beat a fight over Marquez. I'm actually surprised how many guys think a fight with Marquez would actually be competitive. Mayweather would seriously slaughter him, and that fight would be fucking ugly for Marquez.
He would beat Pacquiao comfortably as well, though not as dominant or brutal as a Marquez fight. I'm not letting p4p ranking sway me, but I honestly think a fight with Mosley and Cotto are bigger tests for him than a fight with Pacquiao and definitely Marquez.

Fair Enough... I agree, JMM would be a one sided affair but a great name to have on his resume. And I also agree that a fight with Mosley would be a harder test for Mayweather than Pacquiao. Another thing... I have never heard Cotto call out Mayweather. Whenever asked about that fight he just says he'll fight anyone they put in front of him. Margarito and PWill directly called out Floyd!
Thegreatequalizer
just to clarify, it definitely seemed like hatton and cotto didn't want any part of mayweather at 140. he called both of them out and neither were ready. but mayweather did bypass tszyu at 140, instead opting to fight gatti.
Nay_Sayer
I don't think Tszyu wanted any part of Floyd....
dbdbdb
QUOTE(Thegreatequalizer @ Mar 24 2009, 11:44 AM) [snapback]429499[/snapback]
just to clarify, it definitely seemed like hatton and cotto didn't want any part of mayweather at 140. he called both of them out and neither were ready. but mayweather did bypass tszyu at 140, instead opting to fight gatti.


True!!

Both Cotto and Hatton were at the {Gatti vs Floyd} fight .... And I heard no one at 140lbs call Floyd out after that beatdown. Many make a habit of suggesting Floyd fight this one or that one ..... but it takes two to tango and not too many top guys are anxious to take him on.

To Cotto's credit and discredit ... he doesn't call people out and leaves it mainly up to Arum. Which I hope one day will change, because Arum is going to milk Cotto for all he's worth until he can groom another fighter to replace his cash-cow.

I honestly believe that if Cotto truely wanted to fight Floyd and made it public .... the fight will happen in spite of Arum.

Big Slim Sweet
QUOTE(damarvelous1 @ Mar 23 2009, 07:21 PM) [snapback]429422[/snapback]
God forbid anyone for calling out Hopkins for fighting De La Hoya and Trinidad.

Marv I don't think you were on this board back in 2003-5 but there were actually a lot of people who talked shit back then about Hopkins picking on smaller guys and never moving up in weight to take on bigger challenges. I'm sure that seems crazy given how pro-BHop the board is now but before he trounced Tarver he got a lot of shit here.
Big Slim Sweet
QUOTE(biggeorge89 @ Mar 24 2009, 12:07 AM) [snapback]429457[/snapback]
I agree that Mayweather needs to fight Shane, Cotto, Or Pacquiao...

But Fitz, stop acting like Floyd picked on a smaller guy moving up in Hatton. Floyd is ALSO a small welterweight clearly..who began at 130...and who comes into fights at 147-149 pounds....just like Manny Pacquiao and Joan Guzman. Floyd is NO bigger than Hatton. He only has a slight height advantage but they look the same size.....

For all of you people saying Floyd should fight Paul Williams instead of Pacquiao and Marquez...I got news for you.Williams is 6 foot fucking 3 or 4....skillwise, he is NOT Marquez and Pacquiao. Marquez and Pacquiao are CLOSER to Mayweather in size and skill and they are more interesting fights than the OVERRATED Williams. I got ALOT more intesrest in Cotto, Pacquiao, Mosley, Marquez fights and they would mean more to Mayweather's legacy...

BG it wasn't so much that Hatton was smaller than PBF it's that Shane started talking shit about Floyd too around that time and Floyd didn't even acknowledge. I think Floyd's dummy said something to the effect that Shane was nothing more than a sparring partner now. It was actually one of the very first interviews here on fighthype after the split with btalk I believe where Shane mocked Floyd's daddy issues. It was fairly serious trash talk. But then when Hatton says Floyd's fights aren't exciting while Max Kellerman chuckles the dummy says Floyd told him to "make the fucking fight." So in that regard, Floyd was picking on the smaller guy (between the two options).

Like Fitz was saying Floyd (or rather his walking, talking jackass of a dummy) doesn't get so lippy when the more serious challengers have something to say. That's what made the response to Marquez a bit of an issue for some of us I think ("careful what you wish for"). It was like deja vu all over again.
Big Slim Sweet
QUOTE(Fitz @ Mar 24 2009, 07:16 AM) [snapback]429483[/snapback]
By the way, I know it doesn't matter whether he fought Hatton at 140 or 147, he was always going to win and I give him credit for that. Great win, and looked impressive and I said he looked good on day one. I don't think Floyd ducked Hatton either, when they were at 140, Hatton said he wasn't ready for Floyd and needed a couple more fights and he did have a few more fights, but it happened at 147.
By the way, I am not knocking Floyd for beating Zab, that's fine. What I am knocking is that he hasn't fought certain guys. I just don't see why he feels the need to quickly step up to the plate when Hatton talks about him, Judah talks about him, and now there is Marquez and he said something like "be careful with what you wish for". While others may have talked about him, but he isn't so lippy back, or he says "who are they"? Like I said, Hatton and Judah are fine, but there are some more testing fighters than them yet still hasn't taken them.
For the record, I don't think there is one guy that I would pick against Floyd other than Williams. I would pick Mayweather over Cotto and Mosley, but I still want to see the fights, I think it would be interesting to see and it would sure beat a fight over Marquez. I'm actually surprised how many guys think a fight with Marquez would actually be competitive. Mayweather would seriously slaughter him, and that fight would be fucking ugly for Marquez.
He would beat Pacquiao comfortably as well, though not as dominant or brutal as a Marquez fight. I'm not letting p4p ranking sway me, but I honestly think a fight with Mosley and Cotto are bigger tests for him than a fight with Pacquiao and definitely Marquez.

Exactly.
Big Slim Sweet
QUOTE(Lil-lightsout @ Mar 24 2009, 01:10 AM) [snapback]429462[/snapback]
Also, I do not give a shit if PBF did not bring his punch up with him. That does not mean he gets a pass to look for smaller type fighters. Pernell Whitaker moved up from lightweight, having little power in his arsenal, and took on undefeated prime fighters in ODLH and Trinidad at Welterweight!!! Thats what made Whitaker and Floyd different, Pernell actually wanted to fight the best regardless of what weight, and he did it when he was no longer in his prime.

Sweet Pea > Pretty Boy Floyd

Anyone who disputes that is a serious HUGGER.

Big Slim Sweet
QUOTE(Lil-lightsout @ Mar 24 2009, 01:10 AM) [snapback]429462[/snapback]
Also, I do not give a shit if PBF did not bring his punch up with him. That does not mean he gets a pass to look for smaller type fighters. Pernell Whitaker moved up from lightweight, having little power in his arsenal, and took on undefeated prime fighters in ODLH and Trinidad at Welterweight!!! Thats what made Whitaker and Floyd different, Pernell actually wanted to fight the best regardless of what weight, and he did it when he was no longer in his prime.

Sweet Pea > Pretty Boy Floyd

Anyone who disputes that is a serious HUGGER.

D-MARV
QUOTE(Fitz @ Mar 24 2009, 06:14 PM) [snapback]429577[/snapback]
I heard you mention that before, and asked you to comment on this, but didn't. What are you basing this on? What happened that makes you say this? Don't recall anything happening. All I remember is that Mayweather moved up and fought Gatti, while Tszyu had a fight with Hatton. Once again, what are you basing this on? Sources?
Yep, I remember a whole lot of people saying how Hopkins picks on little guys like Trinidad and DLH. I think DLH was a small guy that had no business being there, but don't blame Hopkins as it was a money fight that he hadn't had too much of. Trinidad only becomes a blown up welterweight every time he gets embarrassed. Kills Joppy, people are all over his nuts, he will beat Hopkins and so on. Hopkins beats him, he is a blown up welter. Trinidad comes back, smashes Mayorga, he is back and will steam roll Winky. Loses to Winky, and a blown up welter again.

Exactly. Sort of how it is with Floyd's opponents
rusty_trombone
QUOTE(Fitz @ Mar 24 2009, 06:14 PM) [snapback]429577[/snapback]
Yep, I remember a whole lot of people saying how Hopkins picks on little guys like Trinidad and DLH. I think DLH was a small guy that had no business being there, but don't blame Hopkins as it was a money fight that he hadn't had too much of. Trinidad only becomes a blown up welterweight every time he gets embarrassed. Kills Joppy, people are all over his nuts, he will beat Hopkins and so on. Hopkins beats him, he is a blown up welter. Trinidad comes back, smashes Mayorga, he is back and will steam roll Winky. Loses to Winky, and a blown up welter again.

No, he's always a blown up welter. I don't know anyone that actually watches boxing give him any kind of real credit for beating Mayorga. Maybe that's how they promoted it, but when is everyone going to stop listening to promoters, or even boxers for that matter.

Everyone put way too much stock into what these people say, who gives a fuck they're just trying to make a buck. I don't think mayweather gives two shits about his legacy and i wouldn't either. His legacy is his bank account, what good does joe louis' legacy do him?
D-MARV
QUOTE(Fitz @ Mar 24 2009, 11:12 PM) [snapback]429622[/snapback]
Not really, because Mayweather was expected to win against Hatton, Baldomir and Judah. There wasn't any kind of back lash after those fights. Trinidad isn't comparable to Hatton, Baldomir or Judah.

OK man...

Fact: Floyd could have challenged himself a lot more than he has.

Fact: The hate for Floyd is ridiculous and tends to outweigh his accomplishments.

Fiction: Floyd is a pussy and a coward.

Fiction: Floyd is on the same level as Whitaker and Leonard.
D-MARV
QUOTE(rusty_trombone @ Mar 24 2009, 11:22 PM) [snapback]429624[/snapback]
No, he's always a blown up welter. I don't know anyone that actually watches boxing give him any kind of real credit for beating Mayorga. Maybe that's how they promoted it, but when is everyone going to stop listening to promoters, or even boxers for that matter.

Everyone put way too much stock into what these people say, who gives a fuck they're just trying to make a buck. I don't think mayweather gives two shits about his legacy and i wouldn't either. His legacy is his bank account, what good does joe louis' legacy do him?

LOL... You're right!
Fitz
QUOTE(rusty_trombone @ Mar 25 2009, 02:22 PM) [snapback]429624[/snapback]
No, he's always a blown up welter. I don't know anyone that actually watches boxing give him any kind of real credit for beating Mayorga. Maybe that's how they promoted it, but when is everyone going to stop listening to promoters, or even boxers for that matter.

Everyone put way too much stock into what these people say, who gives a fuck they're just trying to make a buck. I don't think mayweather gives two shits about his legacy and i wouldn't either. His legacy is his bank account, what good does joe louis' legacy do him?


Was he a blown up welter after he beat Joppy? Don't think so. He only ever lost to 160 fighters that were wrong for him. Not too big. Neither Hopkins or Wright beat Trinidad because of size, as they didn't out muscle him, he just couldn't find them. Him losing to them had zero to do with size.

I know Mayweather doesn't give two shits about his legacy, have you actually been reading what myself, Slim, JD and several others have been saying? That he didn't go for greatness. Us arguing that makes us aware he doesn't care for his legacy, so there's no news there. We are arguing with people that are trying to make out like he has some great legacy like Leonard.
BigG
Big Slim, I've already said in the past...Floyd doesn't have a great fighters mentality..... Since moving up to 147 anyway. The only reason he moved up was for Oscar De La Hoya that's the truth. He was after the payday. Judah & Hatton were also good fights for him as was Baldomir. But IF he does comeback. fact is, he will still be regarded as the 1st or 2nd best fighter in the world. He is probably the most talented fighter of his generation. If he does end up fighting Cotto, Mosley, Pacquiao, and yes, even Marquez he will be adding greatly to his legacy but until then I don't consider him an ATG...almost an ATG but not quite.

And yes, Sweet Pea > Floyd and also the man in my sig Terry Norris would KO him.
Thegreatequalizer
QUOTE(rusty_trombone @ Mar 24 2009, 11:22 PM) [snapback]429624[/snapback]
I don't think mayweather gives two shits about his legacy and i wouldn't either. His legacy is his bank account, what good does joe louis' legacy do him?


that's what i think about every time i see floyd fight. man, that guys got some mad bank account skillz. so fun to watch.
rusty_trombone
QUOTE(Fitz @ Mar 24 2009, 11:53 PM) [snapback]429635[/snapback]
Was he a blown up welter after he beat Joppy?

Yes. Just because he happened to win doesn't mean he wasn't a blown up welterweight. Those are mutually exclusive issues. Win or Lose, Trinidad was a blown up welterweight when fighting at 160 or higher.

Just like Pac man is a blown up featherweight or lightweight when fighting at welter, he won, but he's still just a blown up little man.
Nay_Sayer
QUOTE(rusty_trombone @ Mar 25 2009, 01:32 PM) [snapback]429709[/snapback]
Win or Lose, Trinidad was a blown up welterweight when fighting at 160 or higher.

I think Trinidad outgrew the WW division sometime around the Whitaker fight.
rusty_trombone
QUOTE(Thegreatequalizer @ Mar 25 2009, 09:42 AM) [snapback]429677[/snapback]
that's what i think about every time i see floyd fight. man, that guys got some mad bank account skillz. so fun to watch.

it's not like he has money because people aren't watching. nobody watching = no money, not entertaining to watch then don't pay to see him fight. it's pretty simple.
Fitz
QUOTE(rusty_trombone @ Mar 26 2009, 06:32 AM) [snapback]429709[/snapback]
Yes. Just because he happened to win doesn't mean he wasn't a blown up welterweight. Those are mutually exclusive issues. Win or Lose, Trinidad was a blown up welterweight when fighting at 160 or higher.

Just like Pac man is a blown up featherweight or lightweight when fighting at welter, he won, but he's still just a blown up little man.


What are you basing him being a blown up welter on? It seems like you are just basing it on him losing that was out of the weight class he began in. He has 4 fights at 160, two of them he won in impressive fashion and showed power. In the 2 he lost?

Hopkins - He couldn't land, got out boxed and then stopped

Winky - He couldn't land, just got jabbed all night. Wasn't pushed around the ring.

From what I remember, Trinidad couldn't land, so nobody can say that he was too small and couldn't hurt them because of size, in order to come up with that idea, you have to land, but he didn't so it's just assumption. Like I said, he couldn't land. Winky or Hopkins didn't push him back and around the ring and basically use their size either. Hopkins used angles and movement, Winky just used his jab and turtle defense that Trinidad couldn't figure out, so once again I don't know where the idea comes from that he was a blown up welter. As him losing to Hopkins and Winky had absolutely zero to do about him being too small. So what did you base it on? Unless you saw a different fight and you think Trinidad got walked down, bullied and beat down, though that certainly did not happen.
iron_mike
QUOTE(Fitz @ Mar 25 2009, 06:37 PM) [snapback]429722[/snapback]
What are you basing him being a blown up welter on? It seems like you are just basing it on him losing that was out of the weight class he began in. He has 4 fights at 160, two of them he won in impressive fashion and showed power. In the 2 he lost?

Hopkins - He couldn't land, got out boxed and then stopped

Winky - He couldn't land, just got jabbed all night. Wasn't pushed around the ring.

From what I remember, Trinidad couldn't land, so nobody can say that he was too small and couldn't hurt them because of size, in order to come up with that idea, you have to land, but he didn't so it's just assumption. Like I said, he couldn't land. Winky or Hopkins didn't push him back and around the ring and basically use their size either. Hopkins used angles and movement, Winky just used his jab and turtle defense that Trinidad couldn't figure out, so once again I don't know where the idea comes from that he was a blown up welter. As him losing to Hopkins and Winky had absolutely zero to do about him being too small. So what did you base it on? Unless you saw a different fight and you think Trinidad got walked down, bullied and beat down, though that certainly did not happen.



I just remember wasting $ on that PPV when the week before or same wknd was Corrales Castillo I. Tito looked TINY compared to Winky...Tito always looked soft around the middle at 160, but he looked like like a twig
dbdbdb
QUOTE(biggeorge89 @ Mar 25 2009, 03:59 AM) [snapback]429667[/snapback]
Big Slim, I've already said in the past...Floyd doesn't have a great fighters mentality..... Since moving up to 147 anyway. The only reason he moved up was for Oscar De La Hoya that's the truth. He was after the payday. Judah & Hatton were also good fights for him as was Baldomir. But IF he does comeback. fact is, he will still be regarded as the 1st or 2nd best fighter in the world. He is probably the most talented fighter of his generation. If he does end up fighting Cotto, Mosley, Pacquiao, and yes, even Marquez he will be adding greatly to his legacy but until then I don't consider him an ATG...almost an ATG but not quite.

And yes, Sweet Pea > Floyd and also the man in my sig Terry Norris would KO him.


Spot On, biggeorge89

Floyd had been chasing DLH for years and it was the only reason he moved up to 147lbs. After he got the big payday fight with DLH, he was going to retire. But then another huge payday presented itself in the form of Hatton.

Since moving up to welterweight Floyd's Motto = Price is right, make the fight.

The so-called 8million offer to fight AM was tempting ... but it was no where near the 20million Plus he was going to get for DLH.

*********
I think both Sweet-pea and Terry Norris vs Floyd would have been great fights if ther were in the same era. But Norris was a sucker for the overhand right {aka Julian Jackson} and Floyd would have worn that punch out. laugh.gif Sweet-pea vs Floyd would have been a serious chess match and boring.
Fitz
QUOTE(iron_mike @ Mar 26 2009, 10:12 AM) [snapback]429725[/snapback]
I just remember wasting $ on that PPV when the week before or same wknd was Corrales Castillo I. Tito looked TINY compared to Winky...Tito always looked soft around the middle at 160, but he looked like like a twig


In the Winky fight he looked a bit soft, but to me he has never been one of those extremely ripped fighters. But my point was, the losses he had at 160 had zero to do with him being too small. He lost to Hopkins who gave him movement and outboxed him, and he literally couldn't land. Without landing, you can't determine that he it was because he was too small, plus Hopkins didn't walk him down or anything. With Winky, he just pumped the jab in front of his face the whole night and he couldn't figure it out. I think both of those fights had nothing to do with size.
rusty_trombone
QUOTE(Fitz @ Mar 25 2009, 07:44 PM) [snapback]429728[/snapback]
In the Winky fight he looked a bit soft, but to me he has never been one of those extremely ripped fighters. But my point was, the losses he had at 160 had zero to do with him being too small. He lost to Hopkins who gave him movement and outboxed him, and he literally couldn't land. Without landing, you can't determine that he it was because he was too small, plus Hopkins didn't walk him down or anything. With Winky, he just pumped the jab in front of his face the whole night and he couldn't figure it out. I think both of those fights had nothing to do with size.

Again, the outcome of the fights and what transpired make no difference. These are mutually exclusive ideas, that means they exist without each other. I don't care that Hopkins didn't beat him because he was a blown up welterweight, that doesn't matter. The point is that he is a blown up welterweight. And don't forget the Roy Jones fight. Tito was never a true middleweight, and was always alot smaller and softer than his opponents there. Try to separate outcomes of the fight, and what Tito was at 160 & above.
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