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Mario415

by Mario Cabrera,jr

"Tyson" is acclaimed indie director James Toback's stylistically inventive portrait of a mesmerizing Mike Tyson. Toback allows Tyson to reveal himself without inhibition and with eloquence and a pervasive vulnerability. Through a mixture of original interviews and archival footage and photographs, a startlingly complex, fully-rounded human being emerges. The film ranges from Tyson's earliest memories of growing up on the mean streets of Brooklyn through his entry into the world of boxing, to his rollercoaster ride in the funhouse of worldwide fame and fortunes won and lost. It is the story of a legendary and uniquely controversial international athletic icon, a figure conjuring radical questions of race and class. In its depiction of a man rising from the most debased circumstances to unlimited heights, destroyed by his own hubris, "Tyson" emerges as a modern day version of classic Greek tragedy.



The CEO
"One morning, I woke up and found my favorite pigeon, Julius, had died. I was devastated and was gonna use his crate as my stickball bat to honor him. I left the crate on my stoop and went in to get something, and I returned to see the sanitation man put the crate into the crusher. I rushed him and caught him flush on the temple with a titanic right hand he was out cold, convulsing on the floor like a infantile retard..."
BigG
Hahahahah shit I love that quote! I just pity the people who messed with Mike's pigeons..
Spyder
Mike has more "what ifs" than probably any fighter in history. The one that I wish we could've seen was "What if Jim Jacobs didn't die?"

That stable mentor/manager was a position that Mike drastically needed.
BigG
QUOTE(Spyder @ Mar 27 2009, 11:58 AM) [snapback]429855[/snapback]
Mike has more "what ifs" than probably any fighter in history. The one that I wish we could've seen was "What if Jim Jacobs didn't die?"

That stable mentor/manager was a position that Mike drastically needed.


In terms of talent it could be argued that Tyson was the most gifted Heavyweight ever.... he was just an immature headcase...but I think he WAS a great fighter in his day (1986-1990) but after prison he just didn't seem the same.
Spyder
QUOTE(biggeorge89 @ Mar 27 2009, 09:15 AM) [snapback]429858[/snapback]
In terms of talent it could be argued that Tyson was the most gifted Heavyweight ever.... he was just an immature headcase...but I think he WAS a great fighter in his day (1986-1990) but after prison he just didn't seem the same.

No way george...Ali had the hand speed of Tyson with height that Mike lacked. Ali probably had a better chin too, and definitely better stamina. The only edge that I'd give Tyson is power, and Ali's power was pretty good too.

This in reference to Tyson being the most gifted heavyweight...
TheWhiteBuffalo
I hope there is at least 20 minutes in the film devoted to the well known fact that Francois Botha ended Mike's career. It appears to many, that after the beating that Mike took from the White Buffalo, that his head was never in the game. Mike could have overcome all of the adversity in his life, but every fighter finds the point where they ask themselves "is this what I want? Can my body take it?".

I hope there is suitable time to tell the story behind the story.
iron_mike
QUOTE(TheWhiteBuffalo @ Mar 27 2009, 12:12 PM) [snapback]429869[/snapback]
I hope there is at least 20 minutes in the film devoted to the well known fact that Francois Botha ended Mike's career. It appears to many, that after the beating that Mike took from the White Buffalo, that his head was never in the game. Mike could have overcome all of the adversity in his life, but every fighter finds the point where they ask themselves "is this what I want? Can my body take it?".

I hope there is suitable time to tell the story behind the story.



Oh yeah, that 5th rd KO ruined Mike's career....not mismanagement, mental problems, growing up too fast, too young, too rich, it was seeing Botha splattered on the floor that ruined Mike....maybe Botha's patented double eardrum punch ruined some of Mike's hearing, so you have a point
TheWhiteBuffalo
QUOTE(iron_mike @ Mar 27 2009, 12:15 PM) [snapback]429870[/snapback]
Oh yeah, that 5th rd KO ruined Mike's career....not mismanagement, mental problems, growing up too fast, too young, too rich, it was seeing Botha splattered on the floor that ruined Mike....maybe Botha's patented double eardrum punch ruined some of Mike's hearing, so you have a point


For God's sake dude, the beating that Mike was taking was so brutal, that Mike tried to break Botha's arm! Did you not watch the fight?

That is a cry for help if I ever saw one. When have you ever seen that happen? Mike rationalized that with one arm, the endless Botha onslaught would be reduced 50% thereby creating a level playing field.

Disagree all you want, but after prison Mike was 100%. Trained hard, looked good and had the fire. After the Botha fight, Mike was done, finished, and reduced to a babbling mess.
TheWhiteBuffalo
Can we say "Desperation"?

Snoop
laugh.gif
iron_mike
QUOTE(TheWhiteBuffalo @ Mar 27 2009, 12:23 PM) [snapback]429873[/snapback]
For God's sake dude, the beating that Mike was taking was so brutal, that Mike tried to break Botha's arm! Did you not watch the fight?

That is a cry for help if I ever saw one. When have you ever seen that happen? Mike rationalized that with one arm, the endless Botha onslaught would be reduced 50% thereby creating a level playing field.

Disagree all you want, but after prison Mike was 100%. Trained hard, looked good and had the fire. After the Botha fight, Mike was done, finished, and reduced to a babbling mess.



You are a funny guy and I like your posts....let's be real...Mike was THIRTY PERCENT NOT 100% after jail...which I'm assuming you meant the 9 months and not the 3 year rape one....can you honestly say, as much as you love Botha and hate Tyson, that he was 100% after jail? Whether it was the rape jail or the traffic jail? He'd been on a decline since after the Spinks fight, 11 years prior. Tyson has obviously done crazy stuff in the ring, he admitted to trying to break Botha's arm, biting ears and nipples, no denying that, but to say Botha ended Mike's career, I think you're half kidding, but I can't tell. Honestly, when I first read your post years ago, I thought you were Botha....maybe you are...
Snoop
QUOTE(iron_mike @ Mar 27 2009, 05:44 PM) [snapback]429878[/snapback]
You are a funny guy and I like your posts....let's be real...Mike was THIRTY PERCENT NOT 100% after jail...which I'm assuming you meant the 9 months and not the 3 year rape one....can you honestly say, as much as you love Botha and hate Tyson, that he was 100% after jail? Whether it was the rape jail or the traffic jail? He'd been on a decline since after the Spinks fight, 11 years prior. Tyson has obviously done crazy stuff in the ring, he admitted to trying to break Botha's arm, biting ears and nipples, no denying that, but to say Botha ended Mike's career, I think you're half kidding, but I can't tell. Honestly, when I first read your post years ago, I thought you were Botha....maybe you are...

It's interesting that you see him as a funny guy yet you're not getting his jokes.
iron_mike
QUOTE(snoopnick @ Mar 27 2009, 12:51 PM) [snapback]429879[/snapback]
It's interesting that you see him as a funny guy yet you're not getting his jokes.



The guy is obsessed with, or is Botha...I can't tell honestly what he's serious about
Snoop
QUOTE(iron_mike @ Mar 27 2009, 05:54 PM) [snapback]429880[/snapback]
The guy is obsessed with, or is Botha...I can't tell honestly what he's serious about

LOL. Well if he isn't joking, it should be viewed as a joke.
Spyder
TWB is completely serious!

Don't let his fan-boy antics distract you from the fact that he is 100% confident.

Apparently, the mental warfare between Botha and Mike started when they passed each other in the hotel and Botha slammed a door in Mike's face...the revolving door!
Nay_Sayer
QUOTE(Spyder @ Mar 27 2009, 08:21 AM) [snapback]429862[/snapback]
No way george...Ali had the hand speed of Tyson with height that Mike lacked. Ali probably had a better chin too, and definitely better stamina. The only edge that I'd give Tyson is power, and Ali's power was pretty good too.

This in reference to Tyson being the most gifted heavyweight...

Ali had better defense too, IMO. Ali may have had Tyson's hand speed but no way could Ali deliver a punch with speed and power that could match Tyson.
Maxy
With his natural gifts Tyson was a special heavyweight, no doubt about it, but his mental toughness came up short. I'm not even convinced that he would have been strong enough mentally even if Jacobs had lived and Rooney had stayed as his trainer.

Gifted, yes, but certainly not the most gifted heavyweight.

He was too young to cope with all that being world heavyweight champion meant and all that went with it.

It's a tragedy because if his mental toughness was a match for his ability and attributes we could and probably would have witnessed the greatest of them all.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
I think I've said this before but Dundee (and you'd think he'd know) has said that Tyson had the quickest handsspeed of any heavyweight he's ever seen.

Size and reach go to Ali and I'd say the chins are about the same. Tyson took some sick shots from Holy, Douglas and Lewis before finally hitting the deck.

I don't know if Ali wins this fight so easy. The one fighter you've got that you could possibly assimilate with Tyson is Frazier and he gave Ali all sorts of problems plus Tyson had a right hand as well as a left. Henry Cooper was neither a big heavyweight nor a fast one but he had Ali on a different planet, now if Tyson landed a similiar shot..........

I'm not saying Tyson necessarily wins this I just don't think it's the cakewalk for Ali that many may pick.
Maxy
Ali would have been able to get into Tysons head. He wouldn't have shown any fear like 99% of prime Tyson opponents showed.

No question in my mind that Ali would tame even the best version of Tyson.

As for handspeed, Tyson delivered his shots just as quick as Ali but Ali could throw and land more in succession. Even at his best Tyson would become frustrated if he wasn't having things all his own way.

Spyder
I wasn't trying to say that one would beat the other...merely replying that Tyson was NOT the most gifted heavyweight ever.

If the two fought...no, Tyson would not beat Ali. I think that Maxy said it best in his last post...if Ali wasn't scared of Sonny Liston, no way in hell is he scared of Tyson.

He would've broken Mike's infantile mind before the fight had even started. Although, if Floyd Patterson did as well as he did with a bad back...
Nay_Sayer
I think the winner of this mythical match-up is decided in the first 6 rounds.

Would Tyson be able to get to Ali's chin in the first half of the fight? I'd give Tyson the edge in speed over *any* of Ali's opponents.

That said, if Ali makes it past 6 then Tyson is in big trouble.....
Spyder
QUOTE(Nay_Sayer @ Mar 27 2009, 08:48 PM) [snapback]429907[/snapback]
I think the winner of this mythical match-up is decided in the first 6 rounds.

Would Tyson be able to get to Ali's chin in the first half of the fight? I'd give Tyson the edge in speed over *any* of Ali's opponents.

That said, if Ali makes it past 6 then Tyson is in big trouble.....

You act like Ali couldn't take a punch...

That man had one of the best chins of all time!
Nay_Sayer
QUOTE(Spyder @ Mar 27 2009, 08:48 PM) [snapback]429916[/snapback]
You act like Ali couldn't take a punch...

That man had one of the best chins of all time!

Ali could take a hell of a punch, but a *good* left hook could put Ali on his ass.

Prime Tyson's left hook was no fucking joke...
Spyder
QUOTE(Nay_Sayer @ Mar 27 2009, 11:36 PM) [snapback]429927[/snapback]
Ali could take a hell of a punch, but a *good* left hook could put Ali on his ass.

Prime Tyson's left hook was no fucking joke...

What *good* left hook are you refering too?
Nay_Sayer
QUOTE(Spyder @ Mar 28 2009, 02:50 PM) [snapback]430016[/snapback]
What *good* left hook are you refering too?

Frazier certainly had a good one.

Didn't Henry Cooper drop Ali with a left hook?
Spyder
QUOTE(Nay_Sayer @ Mar 28 2009, 05:12 PM) [snapback]430017[/snapback]
Frazier certainly had a good one.

Didn't Henry Cooper drop Ali with a left hook?

The Frazier hook was the one that I thought you were talking about, but yeah...Cooper hit Ali with a BOMB!

Actually, that whole fourth round Ali was getting tagged with left hooks...

Eh...the Frazier punch landed in the 15th round so I really don't put too much stock in that one, but the Cooper punch was hellacious!

The one thing that both of those punches have in common is that Ali got up from them both...and at the end of the day, that's all that matters.
BigG
QUOTE(Spyder @ Mar 27 2009, 02:21 PM) [snapback]429862[/snapback]
No way george...Ali had the hand speed of Tyson with height that Mike lacked. Ali probably had a better chin too, and definitely better stamina. The only edge that I'd give Tyson is power, and Ali's power was pretty good too.

This in reference to Tyson being the most gifted heavyweight...


Prime ALI and Prime Tyson's hand speed was certainly comparable but Mike had more in his shots...but Tyson was quicker than Ali around the Foreman fight.

I think Ali would beat Tyson by decision...
torvix2000
LOL! This turned into Ali versus Tyson thread again.

Tyson has a tough brain. Problem though was it lasted just two years. He just didn't have the passion for boxing after that. Just wanted to collect some payday.
Method
QUOTE(Spyder @ Mar 27 2009, 06:49 PM) [snapback]429904[/snapback]
I wasn't trying to say that one would beat the other...merely replying that Tyson was NOT the most gifted heavyweight ever.

If the two fought...no, Tyson would not beat Ali. I think that Maxy said it best in his last post...if Ali wasn't scared of Sonny Liston, no way in hell is he scared of Tyson.

He would've broken Mike's infantile mind before the fight had even started. Although, if Floyd Patterson did as well as he did with a bad back...


Nah. Ali is one of my all time favorites, but I do not think it unlikely that a prime version of Tyson couldnt beat the version of Ali that Joe Frazier beat.
Douchebag
Ali vs Tyson Prefight press conferences would have been Classic. Could you imagine. IMO Ali's taunting would actually benefit Mike. In this Mythical showdown Ali would would have been better playing to Mike softer side.
D-MARV
Ali stops Tyson late, IMHO. smile.gif
JD
I think Ali would have had Tyson beat before they entered the ring.
Spyder
QUOTE(Method @ Mar 31 2009, 10:59 AM) [snapback]430283[/snapback]
Nah. Ali is one of my all time favorites, but I do not think it unlikely that a prime version of Tyson couldnt beat the version of Ali that Joe Frazier beat.


I don't see it as an impossible task for Tyson to beat Ali, but I wouldn't pick that as the probable outcome. Tyson used to have guys beat before the first punch was thrown. He wouldn't have that luxury fighting Ali.

QUOTE(JD @ Mar 31 2009, 12:40 PM) [snapback]430288[/snapback]
I think Ali would have had Tyson beat before they entered the ring.

Ali would be harrassing him non-stop, much like he did to Sonny Liston and George Foreman.
Douchebag
QUOTE(Spyder @ Mar 31 2009, 03:47 PM) [snapback]430294[/snapback]
I don't see it as an impossible task for Tyson to beat Ali, but I wouldn't pick that as the probable outcome. Tyson used to have guys beat before the first punch was thrown. He wouldn't have that luxury fighting Ali.
Ali would be harrassing him non-stop, much like he did to Sonny Liston and George Foreman.



The difference is that Tyson would probably caught a charge before the fight took place for assault or rape on Ali or someone in his entourage. Mike is too loose of cannon for that type of shit.
D-MARV
Actually,
Ali fought scared to death in most of his fights. The more intimidating the opponent the more shit he talked. That was his way of dealing with his fear. It paid off for him too.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE(Nay_Sayer @ Mar 28 2009, 12:48 AM) [snapback]429907[/snapback]
I think the winner of this mythical match-up is decided in the first 6 rounds.

Would Tyson be able to get to Ali's chin in the first half of the fight? I'd give Tyson the edge in speed over *any* of Ali's opponents.

That said, if Ali makes it past 6 then Tyson is in big trouble.....



I would venture that Patterson & Holmes had faster hands than Tyson.

I would also venture that Tyson however "prime" he was would get flogged badly by Ali. Ali was way too crafty for Mike & the head games would leave Mike a drooling mess by the time he got in the ring.

Tyson has always had trouble dealing with a solid pumping jab especially when it's speed & angle are constantly changed. That combined with superb footwork spells disaster for Tyson.

Don't get me wrong I am not a fan of either guy & truly despise Ali but he was a lot better than Tyson.

dbdbdb
QUOTE(The Conscience @ Mar 31 2009, 06:07 PM) [snapback]430312[/snapback]
Mike is too loose of cannon for that type of shit.


laugh.gif Exactly laugh.gif

It wouldn't have taken Ali long to get under Tyson's skin and from that point on Tyson would have been seething with anger and ready to fight.
King Eugene
I think some people forget that in Tyson's prime (early 20's) he wasn't that big of a hot head and pretty composed. It wouldn't have been that easy to get under his skin then. Now a little after the Spinks fight, Robin Givens era, and after Prison he was a plum mess.
torvix2000
QUOTE(3King3 @ Apr 1 2009, 02:14 AM) [snapback]430356[/snapback]
I think some people forget that in Tyson's prime (early 20's) he wasn't that big of a hot head and pretty composed. It wouldn't have been that easy to get under his skin then.


He was composed after a gruelling 12-rounder with Green. He was smiling after the fight. If it was the later version of Mike Tyson, then Green would have been bitten, arm getting tried to be broken, elbowed, or got punched in between break.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE(3King3 @ Apr 1 2009, 02:14 AM) [snapback]430356[/snapback]
I think some people forget that in Tyson's prime (early 20's) he wasn't that big of a hot head and pretty composed. It wouldn't have been that easy to get under his skin then. Now a little after the Spinks fight, Robin Givens era, and after Prison he was a plum mess.



He always had a weak mind & lacked confidence. Look at his amateur career & his lifelong emotional instability issues.

A guy like Ali was the master of mind games & the pre fight build up would be like throwing a child into a tiger shark tank - ugly brutal & one sided.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE(torvix2000 @ Apr 1 2009, 03:16 AM) [snapback]430371[/snapback]
He was composed after a gruelling 12-rounder with Green. He was smiling after the fight. If it was the later version of Mike Tyson, then Green would have been bitten, arm getting tried to be broken, elbowed, or got punched in between break.


Tyson ALWAYS ALWAYS punched on the break & was as dirty as they come. This is not some new phenominon that a post 88 Tyson did it was what he did his entire career.
Spyder
Tyson was always a mental mess. Jim Jacobs and Kevin Rooney just disguised that from us, but nothing changed from '88 til Tyson-Holyfield II.
BigG
QUOTE(STEVENSKI @ Mar 31 2009, 11:54 PM) [snapback]430335[/snapback]
I would venture that Patterson & Holmes had faster hands than Tyson.

I would also venture that Tyson however "prime" he was would get flogged badly by Ali. Ali was way too crafty for Mike & the head games would leave Mike a drooling mess by the time he got in the ring.

Tyson has always had trouble dealing with a solid pumping jab especially when it's speed & angle are constantly changed. That combined with superb footwork spells disaster for Tyson.

Don't get me wrong I am not a fan of either guy & truly despise Ali but he was a lot better than Tyson.


Holmes? Yeah right...and speaking of Holmes..for the record, he said Tyson was the quickest fighter he was ever in with.
iron_mike
QUOTE(STEVENSKI @ Mar 31 2009, 11:25 PM) [snapback]430380[/snapback]
Tyson ALWAYS ALWAYS punched on the break & was as dirty as they come. This is not some new phenominon that a post 88 Tyson did it was what he did his entire career.



He hit on the break, while the guy was on the floor (Sammy Scaff?) ALOT of elbows, but he was not the dirtiest, Casamayor type fighter---not talking about the biting, arm breaking Tyson, but the early version...and what fighter has been squeaky clean their whole career?
Douchebag
QUOTE(torvix2000 @ Mar 31 2009, 11:16 PM) [snapback]430371[/snapback]
He was composed after a gruelling 12-rounder with Green. He was smiling after the fight. If it was the later version of Mike Tyson, then Green would have been bitten, arm getting tried to be broken, elbowed, or got punched in between break.



Not saying Ali wasn't the greatest at the mind games (he definitely was), but Mike is so volatile that it wouldn't have been out of the question for him do something crazy like hit Ali with a chair or someting. Not worth the risk with a character like Mike IMO.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE(iron_mike @ Apr 1 2009, 03:37 PM) [snapback]430387[/snapback]
He hit on the break, while the guy was on the floor (Sammy Scaff?) ALOT of elbows, but he was not the dirtiest, Casamayor type fighter---not talking about the biting, arm breaking Tyson, but the early version...and what fighter has been squeaky clean their whole career?



He was consistantly dirty & just as bad as Casa. I am not saying he was the dirtiest by any stretch but he was consistantly dirty as in every single fight he would hit on the break, after the bell, use elbows & head etc.

QUOTE(biggeorge89 @ Apr 1 2009, 03:32 PM) [snapback]430386[/snapback]
Holmes? Yeah right...and speaking of Holmes..for the record, he said Tyson was the quickest fighter he was ever in with.


I think Holmes was faster but that is just my opinion.
Nay_Sayer
QUOTE(STEVENSKI @ Apr 1 2009, 04:55 PM) [snapback]430417[/snapback]
I think Holmes was faster but that is just my opinion.

Holmes had better technique and better defense. Tyson's handspeed, while in his prime, was simply amazing.
BigG
I just watched the documentary and its great. Really crazy how popular Tyson was when he was champ Boxing needs another fighter like him.
King Eugene
QUOTE(biggeorge89 @ Apr 7 2009, 05:02 PM) [snapback]430955[/snapback]
I just watched the documentary and its great. Really crazy how popular Tyson was when he was champ Boxing needs another fighter like him.

Where did you see it at?
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