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BGv2.0
As sad as it is to admit it nowadays...I am a HW fan. That being said the last several years have been the most frustrating of my life as a boxing fan.

Oh...don't get me wrong I have seen some spectacular fights in that time period....Castillo/Corrales I, Pavlik/Hopkins, Diaz/Marquez....the list just goes on and on.

BUT....there has been nothing at HW for quite some time. When Lewis retired I called this exact situation....I said that due to their being any real single force at HW....the division would fall into a complete state of mediocracy....with titlists switching belts like kids trading baseball cards. This was not a hard deduction to come to, as we had seen it before...most recently being the early 80's prior to Mike Tyson's arrival to the sport.

Prior to Tyson we had the likes of Holmes and Ali....after the likes of Holyfield and Lewis....for the most part only a handful of years went by where the divison head was ever at question.

Since Lewis retired....I have pretty well kept telling myself...somebody will come up in a couple of years as did Tyson in the 80's....well we are now getting into the area where we could have an actual DECADE without a real solid champion....and we are all aware of what is on the horizon....which appears to be a big batch of NOTHING!

The early 80's HW swap meet only lasted a few short years.....as did other periods. This looks as if it is not going to end any time soon.

Now I realize that there are many Klit fans that are going to see this post as a dump on their fighters....it is not meant to be...but I think any real fan with any knowledge would agree that the Klits are simply the BEST in a TERRIBLE division....which IMHO is a true account of what we have at the moment.

Even if you do disagree with that idea and think one or both are the best ever....the fact that they will not fight and therefore will not actually ever produce one single fighter that can claim to be the best...cannot be disputed.

SO....saying all of that...and knowing the state of the divison and the sport....how many think it is very possible that Lennox Lewis may end of being the last true great HW champion?

maybe this post is just a account of my dissapontment in the division....but you have to admit....this period of less than steller HWs is going much longer than any of us ever anticipated!
Big Slim Sweet
QUOTE(BGv2.0 @ Mar 31 2009, 03:24 PM) [snapback]430295[/snapback]
Even if you do disagree with that idea and think one or both are the best ever....the fact that they will not fight and therefore will not actually ever produce one single fighter that can claim to be the best...cannot be disputed.

This is certainly part of the problem. We can't really judge the Klitschko's outside of this awful era because it appears neither man will ever beat another highly respected heavyweight. And because of that they seem destined to go down as just the best of a terrible lot, like you said.

The only gauge we have at all is Vitali's fight with Lennox, which was certainly a good, competitive scrap, but most folks including myself believe that was the single worst version of Lennox Lewis to ever step into the ring. And the fact that he retired afterwards without fighting again indicates that Lennox probably thought that as well.

I wouldn't fret too hard about it though. Someone will come along again. It's just going to take some time. Six years and counting might seem like forever right now, but in the big picture this will just be a blip.

I hope.
ROLL DEEP
Yup, Lewis is the only recent heavyweight champ you could mention in the same breath as Frazier, Foreman, Tyson, Holyfeild, Louis, Ali.


The Klitschkos? Nah. I admit, I'm a big fan of Vitali and Wladimir and it does annoy me a little when they get all the stick they do, but they're in a different league compared to the greats.



The sad thing thing is, is that we're STILL waiting for ANYONE who looks like they have a shread of skill, charisma and the 'x-factor' to be the next big thing at heavyweight.


There are a few guys who are exciting (Haye), dominant (Klits), Charismatic (Toney), untested (Arreola), but none of them will be classed as 'great' when they retire. Maybe the Klits, but thats a loooong shot.



Although the heavyweight division is the most interesting division for the general public, I think people are getting used to boxing life without it.
Box in Hand
First off, F$#$ the HW division. I hate them lazy sloppy bastards. Next, it may be true, Lenox might be the last great HW. I mean, how the hell does Roy Jones move up in weight and capture a title. That should be a no no even if it was against Ruiz's weak ass. I used to love the big guys but man I don't even care anymore. Maybe David Haye will have a shot but I think Klitz is going to jab him to death.
Nay_Sayer
You guys still don't get it.

Either Klitschko is *not* a champion. They are paper titlists.

The true HW title remains vacant.
Box in Hand
QUOTE(Nay_Sayer @ Mar 31 2009, 03:33 PM) [snapback]430305[/snapback]
You guys still don't get it.

Either Klitschko is *not* a champion. They are paper titlists.

The true HW title remains vacant.



Most experts consider whoever holds the WBC and or Ring Magazine belt as the true champ. However, the question posed here is, is Lenox the last great heavyweight champion?
JLUVBABY
QUOTE(BGv2.0 @ Mar 31 2009, 03:24 PM) [snapback]430295[/snapback]
As sad as it is to admit it nowadays...I am a HW fan. That being said the last several years have been the most frustrating of my life as a boxing fan.

Oh...don't get me wrong I have seen some spectacular fights in that time period....Castillo/Corrales I, Pavlik/Hopkins, Diaz/Marquez....the list just goes on and on.

BUT....there has been nothing at HW for quite some time. When Lewis retired I called this exact situation....I said that due to their being any real single force at HW....the division would fall into a complete state of mediocracy....with titlists switching belts like kids trading baseball cards. This was not a hard deduction to come to, as we had seen it before...most recently being the early 80's prior to Mike Tyson's arrival to the sport.

Prior to Tyson we had the likes of Holmes and Ali....after the likes of Holyfield and Lewis....for the most part only a handful of years went by where the divison head was ever at question.

Since Lewis retired....I have pretty well kept telling myself...somebody will come up in a couple of years as did Tyson in the 80's....well we are now getting into the area where we could have an actual DECADE without a real solid champion....and we are all aware of what is on the horizon....which appears to be a big batch of NOTHING!

The early 80's HW swap meet only lasted a few short years.....as did other periods. This looks as if it is not going to end any time soon.

Now I realize that there are many Klit fans that are going to see this post as a dump on their fighters....it is not meant to be...but I think any real fan with any knowledge would agree that the Klits are simply the BEST in a TERRIBLE division....which IMHO is a true account of what we have at the moment.

Even if you do disagree with that idea and think one or both are the best ever....the fact that they will not fight and therefore will not actually ever produce one single fighter that can claim to be the best...cannot be disputed.

SO....saying all of that...and knowing the state of the divison and the sport....how many think it is very possible that Lennox Lewis may end of being the last true great HW champion?

maybe this post is just a account of my dissapontment in the division....but you have to admit....this period of less than steller HWs is going much longer than any of us ever anticipated!


bg i am a fan of the heavyweights too and i gotta tell you this is just how it happens in that division from time to time.. their has only really been two golden ages of heavyweights... that was the 70's and you can make an argument for the 90's group of heavyweights as well... other than that there are fighters that we call great today that fought in divisions as weak as the division is today.. they are great because they did what they where supposed to do with the opposition that they had and cleaned out the division and again was very dominant in doing so... do i think lennox will be the last great heavyweight?.. no... there will be a fighter that comes out of nowhere or might even be known and will electrify the crowds.. its just a matter of time... the only problem with the klits. is that they dont end the show like it appears they should have the physical tools to do.. if they where killing these guys like they look like they should be able to do they would be huge draws... let me add too i think vitali takes away from wlad... i think it was selfish for him to come back.. the few good guys wlad has the chance of fighting to add to his legacy will be now split with vitali... dont know how fare that is to him but what ever...lol
D-MARV
There be other great fighters!
JLUVBABY
you're from houston box in hand?.. i'm right down interstate 10 from you in beaumont.. did you go to diaz/marquez?
Method
Could have been if he was ever great.
D-MARV
QUOTE(Method @ Mar 31 2009, 07:01 PM) [snapback]430326[/snapback]
Could have been if he was ever great.

LOL...
Come on man, Lennox was great!
Snoop
QUOTE(Nay_Sayer @ Mar 31 2009, 10:33 PM) [snapback]430305[/snapback]
You guys still don't get it.

Either Klitschko is *not* a champion. They are paper titlists.

The true HW title remains vacant.

How does one acquire the "true" HW title now?
JLUVBABY
QUOTE(damarvelous1 @ Mar 31 2009, 06:04 PM) [snapback]430329[/snapback]
LOL...
Come on man, Lennox was great!



dmarv.. imma agree with you on that statement.. lennox lewis proved his greatness tho i dont think he's upper tier.. but let me ask you this.. contrary to his wins over tyson and holyfield which basically cemented his greatness do you think he beats them in their primes?... its those two wins that people for the most part give him that title... i give him the title of a.t.g for his number of total defenses between his separate reigns as champ... just curious to your and anyone elses response to that question... my personal opinion is that i dont think he would have beaten either one in the prime of their careers.. i think he succumbs to tysons power and holyfields warrior heart... just my opinion... both fights he could make interesting maybe but win i dont think so... lol, thats just my feelings on that.
Nay_Sayer
QUOTE(Box in Hand @ Mar 31 2009, 03:47 PM) [snapback]430308[/snapback]
Most experts consider whoever holds the WBC and or Ring Magazine belt as the true champ.

Most "experts" like who?
Nay_Sayer
QUOTE(snoopnick @ Mar 31 2009, 05:42 PM) [snapback]430333[/snapback]
How does one acquire the "true" HW title now?

The consensus #1 and #2 heavyweights in the world need to fight in order to determine the identity of the HW Champion.
dbdbdb
QUOTE(JLUVBABY @ Mar 31 2009, 08:31 PM) [snapback]430343[/snapback]
dmarv.. imma agree with you on that statement.. lennox lewis proved his greatness tho i dont think he's upper tier.. but let me ask you this.. contrary to his wins over tyson and holyfield which basically cemented his greatness do you think he beats them in their primes?... its those two wins that people for the most part give him that title... i give him the title of a.t.g for his number of total defenses between his separate reigns as champ... just curious to your and anyone elses response to that question... my personal opinion is that i dont think he would have beaten either one in the prime of their careers.. i think he succumbs to tysons power and holyfields warrior heart... just my opinion... both fights he could make interesting maybe but win i dont think so... lol, thats just my feelings on that.


The Tyson Lewis beat, was just a shell of the Tyson we all knew as the HW champ. Holyfield was having more & more fights with his doctors and girlfriends than fighters. I think Lewis would have had a tougher time handling Tyson of old, but I still believe he would have won on points. A prime Holyfield and a prime Lewis would have been a great matchup ... But I would stick with lewis again because Holyfield had a tendency to get impatient, make mistakes and get clobbered and Lewis was always calm.

Lewis was an awesome champion, but the level of competition had started to decline during his era.
Box in Hand
QUOTE(Nay_Sayer @ Mar 31 2009, 06:41 PM) [snapback]430346[/snapback]
Most "experts" like who?



Not You, obviously.
D-MARV
I used to hate Lennox Lewis when he was fighting. I called him all kinds of bitches when he retired after the Vitali fight... but I will not take away from his greatness. He was a "Great" Fighter. Top Ten Heavyweight All Time!
Box in Hand
QUOTE(JLUVBABY @ Mar 31 2009, 04:57 PM) [snapback]430325[/snapback]
you're from houston box in hand?.. i'm right down interstate 10 from you in beaumont.. did you go to diaz/marquez?



Yep. Didn't make it to the fight, got sick that night. I wanna beat myself up for missing that one.
Nay_Sayer
QUOTE(Box in Hand @ Mar 31 2009, 08:31 PM) [snapback]430357[/snapback]
Not You, obviously.

You still haven't answered the question.

Most "experts" like who?
Box in Hand
QUOTE(Nay_Sayer @ Mar 31 2009, 08:48 PM) [snapback]430362[/snapback]
You still haven't answered the question.

Most "experts" like who?



Yawn, I'm tired. If you need to ask this question maybe you should start from square 1. This has always been the gold standard. The WBC strap is the most prestigous of all titles along with the Ring Magazine belt which was created as a non biased award to signify the true champ who could only lose his belt in the ring. All other belts have sanctioning bodies who can strip their fighters of the belt for any number of reasons.

The Ring Magazine Light Heavyweight belt is issued by Ring Magazine to the top man in the division. The holder of a Ring Magazine belt is usually considered the undisputed world champion. Unlike the numerous alphabet belts (WBA, WBC, IBF, WBO etc) the Ring does not strip its champions of their belts or declare interim champions.

The Ring belt is popular because it is considered the one true belt of the real world champion. It was created to try to bring the good old days of boxing back to the golden era when there was just one world champion per division. Ring Champions only lose their title if they lose it in a match, retire or change weight division.
Retrieved from Ring Magazine March 31, 2009.
D-MARV
QUOTE(JLUVBABY @ Mar 31 2009, 08:31 PM) [snapback]430343[/snapback]
dmarv.. imma agree with you on that statement.. lennox lewis proved his greatness tho i dont think he's upper tier.. but let me ask you this.. contrary to his wins over tyson and holyfield which basically cemented his greatness do you think he beats them in their primes?... its those two wins that people for the most part give him that title... i give him the title of a.t.g for his number of total defenses between his separate reigns as champ... just curious to your and anyone elses response to that question... my personal opinion is that i dont think he would have beaten either one in the prime of their careers.. i think he succumbs to tysons power and holyfields warrior heart... just my opinion... both fights he could make interesting maybe but win i dont think so... lol, thats just my feelings on that.

Prime Lewis Vs Prime Tyson, Lewis would win. Lennox is a bad style match for Tyson.


Now The Holy one beats Lennox in there primes. He almost beat him in the second fight.
Nay_Sayer
QUOTE(Box in Hand @ Mar 31 2009, 09:02 PM) [snapback]430364[/snapback]
Yawn, I'm tired. If you need to ask this question maybe you should start from square 1.

And you still haven't answered the question.

Most "experts" like who?
Box in Hand
QUOTE(Nay_Sayer @ Mar 31 2009, 09:13 PM) [snapback]430367[/snapback]
And you still haven't answered the question.

Most "experts" like who?



Good night.
D-MARV
QUOTE(Nay_Sayer @ Mar 31 2009, 08:44 PM) [snapback]430347[/snapback]
The consensus #1 and #2 heavyweights in the world need to fight in order to determine the identity of the HW Champion.

When Wlad beat Chris Byrd, weren't they the top 2 fighters in the world?
Nay_Sayer
QUOTE(damarvelous1 @ Mar 31 2009, 09:16 PM) [snapback]430370[/snapback]
When Wlad beat Chris Byrd, weren't they the top 2 fighters in the world?

I don't know. We'd have to go back and look @ the rankings in the HW division when the fight took place...
ROLL DEEP
C'mon guys. We're supposed to be slagging off the heavyweight division.....not turning it into a 'Who'd win out of a prime Tyson - Lewis' and boring stuff about belts.



Let's take the piss out of Ruiz and Valuev. Far more interesting.
BigG
QUOTE(damarvelous1 @ Apr 1 2009, 03:05 AM) [snapback]430365[/snapback]
Prime Lewis Vs Prime Tyson, Lewis would win. Lennox is a bad style match for Tyson.


Now The Holy one beats Lennox in there primes. He almost beat him in the second fight.


Well you could be right...but lets not act like Lewis beat a close to prime Tyson. I believe Tyson from 86-89...would've had a great chance to KO Lennox Lewis....not the slightly heavy, 14 years out of prime Tyson that Lewis fought.
Big Slim Sweet
I think sometimes too much gets made of the 'What other great fighters did he beat?' argument. Don't get me wrong it's important, but a fighter can still build an impressive resume without that one HOF name there.

To me, one of the most impressive things about LL's career was the way he completely cleaned out the second tier of the division while waiting for the Holyfield and Tyson fights to develop. The heavyweight division was especially deep during that time too, and Lewis beat nearly every other worthy/semi-worthy contender between 1992-98. Ruddock, Tucker, Bruno, Morrison, Mercer, Akinwade, Golota, Briggs. Even without the great opposition, he was still fighting and for the most part dominating very solid opponents on a consistent basis.

If it's just about beating other great fighters, then it's just a name game, and to that end Lewis beat the other two great fighters he fought, regardless of whether they were in their prime. Let's not forget LL was 34 himself I believe when he stepped into the ring the first time with Holyfield. He waited a long time for the oppportunity through no fault of his own.

---

I'd rank Lennox's best victories like this:

1 - Holyfield 1 & 2. Even at 37 Holyfield was the best opponent Lewis fought. He was nowhere near shot yet, and LL beat him twice. Handily the first time, and close but clear IMO the second.

2 - (tie) Ruddock & Golota. Just off how dangerous these two were perceived to be coming off their losses to Tyson and Bowe respectively, and how thoroughly Lennox thrashed them. Neither man could hang with his power for a single round, (Ruddock technically made it to the 2nd but was done by the end of the 1st). In both cases they were fresh off hanging with fighters who were then thought to be better at the time than Lewis. In bioth cases the majority of fans I knew thought Lewis was going to get beat.

4 - Mercer - This was a great fight, an underrated slugfest. Mercer could really scrap in those days. Lewis won this fight in a way most didn't think he could. Some people still don't give Lewis credit for being the kind of fighter he showed himself to be here.

5 - Rahman 2 - Cause everyone thought Lewis was done, and that was one helluva motherfucking right hand. I was at a party with about 20 people watching this and every last one of us jumped out of our seats before Rock's back hit the canvas. I was THE ONLY person in the room rooting for Lennox that night, and I collected a nice bit of coin from a few guys.

---

Anyway, back to my main point, I think too much gets made sometimes of the fact that Tyson and Holyfield weren't in their primes when Lewis fought them. Lewis may have been slightly past his best then as well (certainly I think for the Tyson fight he was) and looking back over the course of his career I feel he has overall an excellent resume of opponents. That includes Tua, the Great White Buffalo, and Vitali K as well.
Box in Hand
QUOTE(Big Slim @ Apr 1 2009, 10:52 AM) [snapback]430395[/snapback]
I think sometimes too much gets made of the 'What other great fighters did he beat?' argument. Don't get me wrong it's important, but a fighter can still build an impressive resume without that one HOF name there.

To me, one of the most impressive things about LL's career was the way he completely cleaned out the second tier of the division while waiting for the Holyfield and Tyson fights to develop. The heavyweight division was especially deep during that time too, and Lewis beat nearly every other worthy/semi-worthy contender between 1992-98. Ruddock, Tucker, Bruno, Morrison, Mercer, Akinwade, Golota, Briggs. Even without the great opposition, he was still fighting and for the most part dominating very solid opponents on a consistent basis.

If it's just about beating other great fighters, then it's just a name game, and to that end Lewis beat the other two great fighters he fought, regardless of whether they were in their prime. Let's not forget LL was 34 himself I believe when he stepped into the ring the first time with Holyfield. He waited a long time for the oppportunity through no fault of his own.

---

I'd rank Lennox's best victories like this:

1 - Holyfield 1 & 2. Even at 37 Holyfield was the best opponent Lewis fought. He was nowhere near shot yet, and LL beat him twice. Handily the first time, and close but clear IMO the second.

2 - (tie) Ruddock & Golota. Just off how dangerous these two were perceived to be coming off their losses to Tyson and Bowe respectively, and how thoroughly Lennox thrashed them. Neither man could hang with his power for a single round, (Ruddock technically made it to the 2nd but was done by the end of the 1st). In both cases they were fresh off hanging with fighters who were then thought to be better at the time than Lewis. In bioth cases the majority of fans I knew thought Lewis was going to get beat.

4 - Mercer - This was a great fight, an underrated slugfest. Mercer could really scrap in those days. Lewis won this fight in a way most didn't think he could. Some people still don't give Lewis credit for being the kind of fighter he showed himself to be here.

5 - Rahman 2 - Cause everyone thought Lewis was done, and that was one helluva motherfucking right hand. I was at a party with about 20 people watching this and every last one of us jumped out of our seats before Rock's back hit the canvas. I was THE ONLY person in the room rooting for Lennox that night, and I collected a nice bit of coin from a few guys.

---

Anyway, back to my main point, I think too much gets made sometimes of the fact that Tyson and Holyfield weren't in their primes when Lewis fought them. Lewis may have been slightly past his best then as well (certainly I think for the Tyson fight he was) and looking back over the course of his career I feel he has overall an excellent resume of opponents. That includes Tua, the Great White Buffalo, and Vitali K as well.



Very good post. It was well thought out and written nicely as well.
Lil-lightsout
QUOTE(Big Slim @ Apr 1 2009, 12:52 PM) [snapback]430395[/snapback]
I think sometimes too much gets made of the 'What other great fighters did he beat?' argument. Don't get me wrong it's important, but a fighter can still build an impressive resume without that one HOF name there.

To me, one of the most impressive things about LL's career was the way he completely cleaned out the second tier of the division while waiting for the Holyfield and Tyson fights to develop. The heavyweight division was especially deep during that time too, and Lewis beat nearly every other worthy/semi-worthy contender between 1992-98. Ruddock, Tucker, Bruno, Morrison, Mercer, Akinwade, Golota, Briggs. Even without the great opposition, he was still fighting and for the most part dominating very solid opponents on a consistent basis.

If it's just about beating other great fighters, then it's just a name game, and to that end Lewis beat the other two great fighters he fought, regardless of whether they were in their prime. Let's not forget LL was 34 himself I believe when he stepped into the ring the first time with Holyfield. He waited a long time for the oppportunity through no fault of his own.

---

I'd rank Lennox's best victories like this:

1 - Holyfield 1 & 2. Even at 37 Holyfield was the best opponent Lewis fought. He was nowhere near shot yet, and LL beat him twice. Handily the first time, and close but clear IMO the second.

2 - (tie) Ruddock & Golota. Just off how dangerous these two were perceived to be coming off their losses to Tyson and Bowe respectively, and how thoroughly Lennox thrashed them. Neither man could hang with his power for a single round, (Ruddock technically made it to the 2nd but was done by the end of the 1st). In both cases they were fresh off hanging with fighters who were then thought to be better at the time than Lewis. In bioth cases the majority of fans I knew thought Lewis was going to get beat.

4 - Mercer - This was a great fight, an underrated slugfest. Mercer could really scrap in those days. Lewis won this fight in a way most didn't think he could. Some people still don't give Lewis credit for being the kind of fighter he showed himself to be here.

5 - Rahman 2 - Cause everyone thought Lewis was done, and that was one helluva motherfucking right hand. I was at a party with about 20 people watching this and every last one of us jumped out of our seats before Rock's back hit the canvas. I was THE ONLY person in the room rooting for Lennox that night, and I collected a nice bit of coin from a few guys.

---

Anyway, back to my main point, I think too much gets made sometimes of the fact that Tyson and Holyfield weren't in their primes when Lewis fought them. Lewis may have been slightly past his best then as well (certainly I think for the Tyson fight he was) and looking back over the course of his career I feel he has overall an excellent resume of opponents. That includes Tua, the Great White Buffalo, and Vitali K as well.


What makes LL so different from say a Wlad Klit? Well, he took on the extremely dangerous Ruddock early in his career and totally destroyed him. He made a STATEMENT! He did not play it safe. To me this was his most impressive performance in his career. I was also at the Golota fight live, and again he took on a dangerous top heavyweight and made another STATEMENT! LL was a very confident great fighter. Wlad is very weak minded and has showed to be unsure of himself.

LL showed his toughness in the Ray Mercer fight, he was not just a long range boxer. Even in bad shape against Vitali, you could see the toughness and desire in LL.

Also, I disagree with you saying everybody thought LL was done after the Rahman fight. It was very clear to me he did not train properly for that fight. He was shooting the movie Oceans Eleven, and when fight time came, he looked gassed early and very sloppy in there. I KNEW he was going to KO Rahman in the rematch, because he would train better this time around. I wonder what the odds were for the rematch, I can not imagine LL being the underdog. I would think the majority of "experts" knew it was more of a unfocused LL in the first fight, and he would come out the victor in the rematch.
Nay_Sayer
QUOTE(Big Slim @ Apr 1 2009, 10:52 AM) [snapback]430395[/snapback]
I'd rank Lennox's best victories like this:

1 - Holyfield 1 & 2. Even at 37 Holyfield was the best opponent Lewis fought. He was nowhere near shot yet, and LL beat him twice. Handily the first time, and close but clear IMO the second.

2 - (tie) Ruddock & Golota. Just off how dangerous these two were perceived to be coming off their losses to Tyson and Bowe respectively, and how thoroughly Lennox thrashed them. Neither man could hang with his power for a single round, (Ruddock technically made it to the 2nd but was done by the end of the 1st). In both cases they were fresh off hanging with fighters who were then thought to be better at the time than Lewis. In bioth cases the majority of fans I knew thought Lewis was going to get beat.

4 - Mercer - This was a great fight, an underrated slugfest. Mercer could really scrap in those days. Lewis won this fight in a way most didn't think he could. Some people still don't give Lewis credit for being the kind of fighter he showed himself to be here.

5 - Rahman 2 - Cause everyone thought Lewis was done, and that was one helluva motherfucking right hand. I was at a party with about 20 people watching this and every last one of us jumped out of our seats before Rock's back hit the canvas. I was THE ONLY person in the room rooting for Lennox that night, and I collected a nice bit of coin from a few guys.

I think I'd rate Lewis' victory over Briggs and/or Tua higher than the Rahman rematch.
Big Slim Sweet
QUOTE(Lil-lightsout @ Apr 1 2009, 02:16 PM) [snapback]430399[/snapback]
Also, I disagree with you saying everybody thought LL was done after the Rahman fight. It was very clear to me he did not train properly for that fight. He was shooting the movie Oceans Eleven, and when fight time came, he looked gassed early and very sloppy in there. I KNEW he was going to KO Rahman in the rematch, because he would train better this time around. I wonder what the odds were for the rematch, I can not imagine LL being the underdog. I would think the majority of "experts" knew it was more of a unfocused LL in the first fight, and he would come out the victor in the rematch.

You're probably right that Lewis was still the betting favorite, though I think it was close. And everyone could see in their first fight LL had totally undertrained. But I still recall a sense from many that the loss wasn't a complete fluke, that Lewis was old and perhaps time had caught up with him. This might have something to do with the fact that I wasn't on any message boards in those days talking with real boxing fans like now. The guys I talked boxing with ranged from casual to semi-serious, and the bulk of them were just so happy Lewis got KO'd they weren't trying to look too deeply into it.

Certainly at the party I mentioned, everyone there thought Rock was going to KO Lewis again. And the few guys giving Lewis a chance were saying things along the lines of "That scared bitch is just gonna run and jab all night and probably win a gay ass decision." So maybe I should have emphasized more that it was the way Lewis won, knocking Rahman out a round earlier with a harder shot than Rock had knocked him out with, then standing in the middle of the ring thumping his chest and calling him 'Has-been' Rahman. With everything leading up to that fight - the first fight, the court drama and Emanuel Steward testifying that Lewis was getting old, the ESPN wrestling match - and then the emphatic way he won, I definitely believe it was one of Lewis's best.
rusty_trombone
No, because in his prime he got knocked out by my hero Rahman, and also got fucked up by a man who had a nervous breakdown in the ring. I don't classify Lennox as a great HW champion. He was just a HW champion.

Anybody with a dissenting opinion is obviously wrong, and can lick my balls. I will not defend what should be obvious to all of you. Lewis = Good Champion, not a great
ROLL DEEP
QUOTE(Big Slim @ Apr 1 2009, 11:52 AM) [snapback]430395[/snapback]
I think sometimes too much gets made of the 'What other great fighters did he beat?' argument. Don't get me wrong it's important, but a fighter can still build an impressive resume without that one HOF name there.

To me, one of the most impressive things about LL's career was the way he completely cleaned out the second tier of the division while waiting for the Holyfield and Tyson fights to develop. The heavyweight division was especially deep during that time too, and Lewis beat nearly every other worthy/semi-worthy contender between 1992-98. Ruddock, Tucker, Bruno, Morrison, Mercer, Akinwade, Golota, Briggs. Even without the great opposition, he was still fighting and for the most part dominating very solid opponents on a consistent basis.

If it's just about beating other great fighters, then it's just a name game, and to that end Lewis beat the other two great fighters he fought, regardless of whether they were in their prime. Let's not forget LL was 34 himself I believe when he stepped into the ring the first time with Holyfield. He waited a long time for the oppportunity through no fault of his own.

---

I'd rank Lennox's best victories like this:

1 - Holyfield 1 & 2. Even at 37 Holyfield was the best opponent Lewis fought. He was nowhere near shot yet, and LL beat him twice. Handily the first time, and close but clear IMO the second.

2 - (tie) Ruddock & Golota. Just off how dangerous these two were perceived to be coming off their losses to Tyson and Bowe respectively, and how thoroughly Lennox thrashed them. Neither man could hang with his power for a single round, (Ruddock technically made it to the 2nd but was done by the end of the 1st). In both cases they were fresh off hanging with fighters who were then thought to be better at the time than Lewis. In bioth cases the majority of fans I knew thought Lewis was going to get beat.

4 - Mercer - This was a great fight, an underrated slugfest. Mercer could really scrap in those days. Lewis won this fight in a way most didn't think he could. Some people still don't give Lewis credit for being the kind of fighter he showed himself to be here.

5 - Rahman 2 - Cause everyone thought Lewis was done, and that was one helluva motherfucking right hand. I was at a party with about 20 people watching this and every last one of us jumped out of our seats before Rock's back hit the canvas. I was THE ONLY person in the room rooting for Lennox that night, and I collected a nice bit of coin from a few guys.

---

Anyway, back to my main point, I think too much gets made sometimes of the fact that Tyson and Holyfield weren't in their primes when Lewis fought them. Lewis may have been slightly past his best then as well (certainly I think for the Tyson fight he was) and looking back over the course of his career I feel he has overall an excellent resume of opponents. That includes Tua, the Great White Buffalo, and Vitali K as well.



Superb post.


You can downplay virtually every boxers reusme, but the fact is that Lewis CLEANED out the division. He fought and beat pretty much everypne that was worth fighting, bar Ruiz and Byrd.

From other greats, to worthy title challengers, to medicore fighters, to up and comers....he beat them all.


JLUVBABY
lol.. i knew this was gonna make for a hot topic...lol.. fact of the matter is those fights are like any other of the fights in which the old man fights the young gun.. you can make cases for all the old man young man fights of either fighter winning.. fact is it will only be speculation on either sides part... you can argue that lennox was better than tyson in their respective primes.. but the argument can also be said that ray mercer deserved the decision over lennox lewis when they fought and lewis was undeniably in his prime at that time... mercer was no where near the fighter tyson was in his prime... could lewis have beaten holyfield the night he fought michael dokes?... or as late as the night he fought tyson in the first time when he was supposed to be a shot fighter and an easy fight for iron mike?... on the flip side the same arguments can be made for lennox lewis only to a very smaller degree... it can be argued that donavan ruddock was his best win of a fighter in prime condition and it could be argued he left most of his fight in the ring with tyson in those 2 fights... any of the older old vs. young fights can be argued.. would norris have beaten leonard prime for prime?.. hoya vs. chavez?.. louis vs marciano?.. this is not a new topic of old man vs. young gun.. the oldest stories i know of dates back to the unsanctioned fights between jack dempsey and jack johnson.. the rumor of those fights that are unlisted is the old man won and they fought several times... (this is unprovable, my grandfather used to talk about it and i've seen it talked about about on some older boxing boards i used to be a part of a few years ago... just saying these days too much emphasis is put ito a younger fighter beating an older fighter at the end of his career) in all those fights it can be argued that the old man showed flashes in those fights of what would have possibly happened had their primes paralled each other.. holyfield and tyson where both very great fighters in their primes and both like lewis had very solid amateur careers, and both possesed a far better chin... actually tyson and lewis where regular sparring partners back in the catskills in the early to mid 80's.. if that tells the story of prime vs. prime (naturally they both got better...) its a great fight and there is a definite winner... wont tell you who got the better of who (on a regular basis) you'd have to look it up if you are interested in knowing the answer...lol...
JLUVBABY
QUOTE(rusty_trombone @ Apr 1 2009, 03:44 PM) [snapback]430405[/snapback]
No, because in his prime he got knocked out by my hero Rahman, and also got fucked up by a man who had a nervous breakdown in the ring. I don't classify Lennox as a great HW champion. He was just a HW champion.

Anybody with a dissenting opinion is obviously wrong, and can lick my balls. I will not defend what should be obvious to all of you. Lewis = Good Champion, not a great


as always you on the money... man you dont post enough... i keep telling you that...
Thegreatequalizer
QUOTE(rusty_trombone @ Apr 1 2009, 04:44 PM) [snapback]430405[/snapback]
No, because in his prime he got knocked out by my hero Rahman, and also got fucked up by a man who had a nervous breakdown in the ring. I don't classify Lennox as a great HW champion. He was just a HW champion.

Anybody with a dissenting opinion is obviously wrong, and can lick my balls. I will not defend what should be obvious to all of you. Lewis = Good Champion, not a great


it's definitely funny to see how revered people become after they retire. people hated lennox lewis. he was either boring and safe or he was out of shape. people were always complaining about the lack of talent at heavyweight then too. but then he retires and is suddenly one of the greatest. almost the exact same thing happened with holmes. and now will likely happen with the klits.
torvix2000
QUOTE(Thegreatequalizer @ Apr 2 2009, 12:03 AM) [snapback]430422[/snapback]
it's definitely funny to see how revered people become after they retire. people hated lennox lewis. he was either boring and safe or he was out of shape. people were always complaining about the lack of talent at heavyweight then too. but then he retires and is suddenly one of the greatest. almost the exact same thing happened with holmes. and now will likely happen with the klits.


Yeah! The Klitz will still have the chance to clean the division up. When they do, they would have done what Lennox has done - clean the division. Then they retire.
D-MARV
LL was a great champion!
JLUVBABY
QUOTE(damarvelous1 @ Apr 1 2009, 07:58 PM) [snapback]430431[/snapback]
LL was a great champion!


dmarv i gotta ask you and not that i dont disagree i think he's a good champ but what do you think makes him great?... just asking i might learn sumthin here...
D-MARV
Well, I like to look at it from a few angles. Frist of all... Physically, LL was an "Animal". 6'6 245lbs with boxing skill, speed, and Power. In his prime, LL boxed behind his jab beautifully. His right hand was one of the best I have ever seen from a Heavyweight. LL had the abilty to outbox his opponent but he would go to war with them as well (see Briggs, Grant, and Mercer). Despite what many think, Lennox also had a good chin. Not Great but good. He beat every man they put in front of him. If you look at his accomplishments... Lennox is a gold medalist in the 1988 olympics as well as a Three Time Heavyweight champion. Only Holyfield, Ali, and Big Klit have accomplished that.


Notable Wins: Ruddock, Tucker, Bruno, Morrison, Mercer, Golota, Briggs, Holyfield, Grant, Tua, Rahman, and Tyson.
Lil-lightsout
QUOTE(Big Slim @ Apr 1 2009, 04:35 PM) [snapback]430403[/snapback]
You're probably right that Lewis was still the betting favorite, though I think it was close. And everyone could see in their first fight LL had totally undertrained. But I still recall a sense from many that the loss wasn't a complete fluke, that Lewis was old and perhaps time had caught up with him. This might have something to do with the fact that I wasn't on any message boards in those days talking with real boxing fans like now. The guys I talked boxing with ranged from casual to semi-serious, and the bulk of them were just so happy Lewis got KO'd they weren't trying to look too deeply into it.

Certainly at the party I mentioned, everyone there thought Rock was going to KO Lewis again. And the few guys giving Lewis a chance were saying things along the lines of "That scared bitch is just gonna run and jab all night and probably win a gay ass decision." So maybe I should have emphasized more that it was the way Lewis won, knocking Rahman out a round earlier with a harder shot than Rock had knocked him out with, then standing in the middle of the ring thumping his chest and calling him 'Has-been' Rahman. With everything leading up to that fight - the first fight, the court drama and Emanuel Steward testifying that Lewis was getting old, the ESPN wrestling match - and then the emphatic way he won, I definitely believe it was one of Lewis's best.


I hear ya. The way he KO'd Rock in the rematch was awesome. Again, he made a Statement. The first fight was a fluke, Rock had no business in that ring with Lennox the GREAT!!! It is funny, I could never stand LL in the early years, I was always a Bowe fan, but I definately came to appreciate what LL has accomplished.
JLUVBABY
[quote name='damarvelous1' date='Apr 1 2009, 09:26 PM' post='430445']
Well, I like to look at it from a few angles. Frist of all... Physically, LL was an "Animal". 6'6 245lbs with boxing skill, speed, and Power. In his prime, LL boxed behind his jab beautifully. His right hand was one of the best I have ever seen from a Heavyweight. LL had the abilty to outbox his opponent but he would go to war with them as well (see Briggs, Grant, and Mercer). Despite what many think, Lennox also had a good chin. Not Great but good. He beat every man they put in front of him. If you look at his accomplishments... Lennox is a gold medalist in the 1988 olympics as well as a Three Time Heavyweight champion. Only Holyfield, Ali, and Big Klit have accomplished that.
Notable Wins: Ruddock, Tucker, Bruno, Morrison, Mercer, Golota, Briggs, Holyfield, Grant, Tua, Rahman, and Tyson.
[/quote

hard for me to count most of those wins as quality that you call notable but i feel what you saying... they where good none the less. sill dont point to him being great in my opinion...
JLUVBABY
QUOTE(Lil-lightsout @ Apr 1 2009, 09:45 PM) [snapback]430446[/snapback]
I hear ya. The way he KO'd Rock in the rematch was awesome. Again, he made a Statement. The first fight was a fluke, Rock had no business in that ring with Lennox the GREAT!!! It is funny, I could never stand LL in the early years, I was always a Bowe fan, but I definately came to appreciate what LL has accomplished.


sure rahman belonged in the ring with lewis that night he beat him... he was trained and ready to challenge for the title, he was primed and ready.. no diffrent then the night douglas beat tyson or randall beat chavez.. cream didnt rise that night...
torvix2000
LOL!

Lennox has no business in the ring against The Rock that time. He's out of shape with his confidence souring... and get knocked out by 1 shot... by a BUM. LOL!
The Original MrFactor
Naaaaahhh... Lewis is not the LAST great HW Champ. I think the Klitschkos will be remembered as great and dominant. Lewis beat the top contenders of his era. The Klits are doing the same. The only trouble is the Klits dont have a prime rival in the division. IF David Haye is the goods, then he could be the guy that ultimately makes the Klits great...
ROLL DEEP
The trouble is, the Klitschkos don't have the depth of talent to 'clean up' in the division to make them great like Lennox did.


When the Klits retire, there will be even more arguments as to whether they're great or not then there is with Lennox.
Lil-lightsout
QUOTE(JLUVBABY @ Apr 2 2009, 01:51 AM) [snapback]430457[/snapback]
sure rahman belonged in the ring with lewis that night he beat him... he was trained and ready to challenge for the title, he was primed and ready.. no diffrent then the night douglas beat tyson or randall beat chavez.. cream didnt rise that night...


Geez. That was just my way of saying no way was Lewis losing that night. Of course Rock deserved to be there, BUT he was never ever on the level of a properly trained and focused LL.

And a properly trained and focused Tyson NEVER would have lost to Douglas in Japan. I watched the fight live, and many times after that, and that was not the best Tyson in there. I take nothing away from Buster's performance, cause it was spectacular, but it was not the hungry fierce Tyson that fought in previous fights.

I remember being in a book store a few weeks before the Randall-Chavez fight, where I would get all my boxing info reading a magazine at the time before internet message boards. I read this article on Frankie, and I for some reason believed him that he was going to beat Chavez. Randall fought an amazing fight that night to pull off a huge upset.
jlupi
Could have been if he was ever great.
>>>

I agree. he was a good champ. Not great.

Nobody really cared about him untill near the end of his career when he beat up aging names
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