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JLUVBABY
I watched this documentary with great interest and just wanted to know what every one else thought about it?... i think its one of the best docs. ever on that fight and i found it interesting how they got so deep into the minds of fraziers people... i wish eddie futch was alive to have given his input on those fights... for those that saw the doc. i would love to know your thoughts on it.. for those that didnt see it i encourage you to watch it.. great doc.. and after all these years frazier still holds great animosity towards ali...
salvador
I agree that it was great.

I thought I'd seen more than enough documentaries about Ali's exploits for one lifetime, but I was surprised by how totally entertaining this was. Listening to Imelda Marcos and Ferdie Pacheco's commentaries alone made it worthwhile.

And I'm glad that Frazier's still holding a grudge.
Imperius3
QUOTE (salvador @ Apr 12 2009, 04:54 PM) *
And I'm glad that Frazier's still holding a grudge.


Why's that?
Michigan Assassin
I'm just glad we finally got to see something more from Frazier's POV. Instead of total hero worship for Ali that has taken place since his condition has worsened.

I also understand why Joe still is holding a grudge, Ali was pretty awful to him and I think especially in that time period was way over the line.

Anyway, I really enjoyed the movie and was very interested to find out that Ali asked Dundee to cut off his gloves after the 14th. How drastically could that have altered the lives of these two men? Perhaps they both would've retired and Ali wouldn't of hung around way too long.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (Michigan Assassin @ Apr 12 2009, 08:41 PM) *
I'm just glad we finally got to see something more from Frazier's POV. Instead of total hero worship for Ali that has taken place since his condition has worsened.

I also understand why Joe still is holding a grudge, Ali was pretty awful to him and I think especially in that time period was way over the line.

Anyway, I really enjoyed the movie and was very interested to find out that Ali asked Dundee to cut off his gloves after the 14th. How drastically could that have altered the lives of these two men? Perhaps they both would've retired and Ali wouldn't of hung around way too long.


i think that the doc. is told from fraziers point of view is what makes this one of he best ever on the fight... every other doc. is all ali and nothing from frazier or hardly nothing from frazier.. like i said i wish eddie futch was alive to give his points on the fight...
BGv2.0
Was it just me or did Ferdie Pacheco come off as a complete ASSHOLE in this film?

Man....every other thing out of his trap was either to call the interviewer a dumbass or to say..."I don't want to insult Joe....BUT"

I always liked Ferdie....but he really came off as a total douchebag in this film!

salvador
QUOTE (Imperius3 @ Apr 12 2009, 07:25 PM) *
Why's that?


Cause Ali was such a fucking jerk - way way way over the line - and Frazier was just so unable to defend himself verbally against all the Uncle Tom and Gorilla comments.

The idea that Frazier was working in the fields in South Carolina at the age of 7 and that somehow Ali thought it was ok to turn blacks against him was unforgivable.

BGv2.0 - I liked Ferdie Pacheco in this film. I agree that it was unnecessarily cruel to point out that Frazier was stupid (which is obvious and unnecessary to bring up), but at the same time he was willing to be politically incorrect in order to tell the truth.
The Original MrFactor
QUOTE (salvador @ Apr 13 2009, 12:10 PM) *
BGv2.0 - I liked Ferdie Pacheco in this film. I agree that it was unnecessarily cruel to point out that Frazier was stupid (which is obvious and unnecessary to bring up), but at the same time he was willing to be politically incorrect in order to tell the truth.



Ho is it obvious that Frazier is stupid? I thought people were a little too loose with the lips when calling the man stupid. Naive maybe, but stupid is a little too harsh.

I thought it was a brutal character assassination on Ali. No Ali representatives to rebutt any info. We just have to take frazier's people's word for it. It tells the story from Fraziers angry perspective. Have any of you seen the Docu, Champions Forever?? It was also a great documentary that told the story of the 5 great HW's that came up from the 60's to the 80's. What has deteriorated so much between Ali and Frazier since the Champions Forever documentary? Ali was cruel and harsh, but they seemed to chum it up a little during Champions forever. There was one point of tension between them where Frazier said Ali told him he was"god." Ali disputed it and it was over. For the most part they just hammed it up for the cameras. At the end of Ali's segment he said Joe Frazier is "my brother and I love him." Ali has stated that he was wrong. i've even heard him say that he ran his mouth so much when he was young that God closed it when he got older. The dude has paid many time over for his sins. Not really sure what frazier wants him to do.

Joe has a gripe. However, some of his position right now may come from envy. he blew alot of money apparently. He lives in his gym?!?! I'd be a little bitter too if I was the Champ and now i live in the back of a gym.
BigG
QUOTE
Ho is it obvious that Frazier is stupid?


LOL I was thinking the same thing when I read that comment?...
BGv2.0
QUOTE (salvador @ Apr 13 2009, 11:10 AM) *
BGv2.0 - I liked Ferdie Pacheco in this film. I agree that it was unnecessarily cruel to point out that Frazier was stupid (which is obvious and unnecessary to bring up), but at the same time he was willing to be politically incorrect in order to tell the truth.


He was a giant gaping dick hole IMHO.

It was not just toward Joe....but to the interviewer as well...."that's stupid...are you really going to ask me stuff like that?....it really makes you look dumb"

I don't know where they dug his ass out of...but they need to put him back!

hardhead
QUOTE (BGv2.0 @ Apr 13 2009, 10:57 PM) *
He was a giant gaping dick hole IMHO.

It was not just toward Joe....but to the interviewer as well...."that's stupid...are you really going to ask me stuff like that?....it really makes you look dumb"

I don't know where they dug his ass out of...but they need to put him back!



Pacheco did come off as major cock sucker, I think the guy is probably a little looney in his old age. I thought he sounded like a fool and hypocrite when he was talking about the quality that makes most people interested in Boxing as well as makes the sport worth watching, is the willingness of fighters to risk death to win and in the next breath basically calls Frazier stupid for fighting on with a fucked up eye?? Ahhh which is it you fucking moron? You're calling Frazier stupid for the exact thing that you just said was the backbone of the sport? I think he's off his rocker to be honest.
salvador
QUOTE (BGv2.0 @ Apr 13 2009, 04:57 PM) *
It was not just toward Joe....but to the interviewer as well...."that's stupid...are you really going to ask me stuff like that?....it really makes you look dumb"


I think the comment you're referring to was when the interviewer asked Pacheco about whether or not Ali was being manipulated by the Muslims. Maybe it was disrespectful of Pacheco to assume that Ali was so easily used, but I think Pacheco was giving Ali a bit of a pass on all the Uncle Tom stuff by blaming it on the Muslims. There's no doubt that Pacheco was overly aggressive in the interview (maybe he's just bitter about having lost his tv job), but at the same time it was a comment that I could see an agitated Larry Merchant making. Maybe Ferdie was drunk or maybe he's just turned into an angry old man, but it was clear that he was spewing the truth as he saw it and I think his nasty comment to the interviewer was mostly meant to reinforce his point that the muslims were manipulating Ali.

Max, as far as it being obvious that Frazier was stupid, let's just say that it's clear that Frazier was totally uneducated, unsophisticated, and naive and would, presumably, have been extremely easy to take advantage of. Those things can be said about a lot of fighters, but most fighters aren't put in a position of having to respond on the spot to such cruel verbal attacks.


Spyder
I just watched this last night...well done.

Like someone said earlier, it was refreshing seeing this from Frazier's perspective. Listening to Marvis describe how pissed Joe gets when Ali's name is mentioned was funny shit..."I'd push him in that fire!"

laugh.gif
LeeGenius
Muhammed Ali was one of the greatest boxers ever, and one of the mot entertaining, charismatic figures in sports history. He is also one of the greatest athletes ever, period.


He was also an ignorant racist -- a puppet for a racist militant black UFO cult called the NOI (Nation of Islam), that holds a laughable theolgy that states white people were created in an experiment gone wrong by an ancient mad black scientist and that they will eventually be conquored and extinguished.

That this is generally glossed over or pooh poohed in favor of viewing Ali as a trailblazer who dodged Vietnam due to his religious beliefs, is bamboozeling to me.

Muhammed Ali was a pretty disgusting human being for most of his professional career. I do not think that is an overstatement. He was in a racist, weirdo hate cult. You saw the interview where he told the interviewer that he hates Frazier even more than he does the white interviewer because Frazier is an uncle tom. He essentially said "I hate you because you are white and I hate Joe more because he is an uncle tom and he is ugly". Disgusting.

I cannot speak for him after he left the NOI for traditional Sunni Islam. Hopefully his views changed and he became a better person, realizing the horrible error of his way like Malcom X did before he was murdered by the NOI.
BGv2.0
QUOTE (LeeGenius @ Apr 16 2009, 03:56 PM) *
He was in a racist, weirdo hate cult.



Boy you said it.....I was stunned about his pride in the speech he gave to the Klan! WTF!!!!
King Eugene
Ali's comments with the Klan was shocking but I'm even more shocked thay(Klan) let him do it.

I think at the end of the day it was all for publicity and ratings. To me he just did it to bring attention to himself. I highly doubt he hated the man that bad. I mean like everyone was saying, behind the cameras you would have thought they where real good friends. If Ali had the personality of say...Cotto I dont think he would be as popular, talked about, or well known as he is. His mouth is what drew the general public, he caused drama and thats what people like to see. I believe he does realize he took it way too far a few times but the man has apologized for it.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Apr 12 2009, 07:26 PM) *
and after all these years frazier still holds great animosity towards ali...


Clay is a POS. He got what he deserved in the end. I laughed at his "Ali Shuffle" during the 96 Olympics. Fuck him I say.

QUOTE (salvador @ Apr 13 2009, 05:10 PM) *
Cause Ali was such a fucking jerk - way way way over the line - and Frazier was just so unable to defend himself verbally against all the Uncle Tom and Gorilla comments.

The idea that Frazier was working in the fields in South Carolina at the age of 7 and that somehow Ali thought it was ok to turn blacks against him was unforgivable.


Exactly. In addition to the danger Clay placed Fraziers whole family in with certain radical violent sections of the community.
ROLL DEEP
QUOTE (BGv2.0 @ Apr 16 2009, 05:14 PM) *
Boy you said it.....I was stunned about his pride in the speech he gave to the Klan! WTF!!!!


What did he say?
BGv2.0
QUOTE (ROLL DEEP @ Apr 17 2009, 12:36 PM) *
What did he say?



He spoke with great pride about how he had addressed a huge Klan rally with burning crosses and all. He said it was beautiful, all that sea of white hoods and him addressing them....he said he stated that red birds should fly with red birds and blue with blue and that whites should stay with whites and blacks with blacks.

He said one of them said "That's right, now if you can just get all those others niggers to understand that"

He kind of laughed at that and then said as he was walking out one guy yelled out "we got the nigger now, let's string him up"....but he said they quickly said "we're just joking with ya champ"

BGv2.0
I think Ali was really scared to death of Fraizer....I think that first fight did it to him.....that's why he acted like such and ass for the 3rd....to actually overcompinsate for his fear.

If you watch the brawl before TIM, when Fraizer get up and stands in front of Ali.....ali is saying "Set down Joe" over and over......he never makes a move.

THEN...when one of his bodyguards comes up on Joe's left side and Joe starts telling him something and his head is completley turned away...Ali jumps up and takes him down when the guy aint looking....

That's some pussy ass BS! lol
King Eugene
This is a real good read about Thrilla in Manilla
Its pretty much just a counter article but I still find it interesting.
http://www.boxingscene.com/?m=show&id=19475
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