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Imperius3
I was having an argument with a friend last night after the fight. We were talking about Hatton's two knockout losses, and I suggested maybe his first knockout loss to Mayweather softened him up a little bit. My friend said that couldn't be true because a fighter's chin stays strong throughout his career and never gets weaker. I brought up Vargas as an example, but he dismissed that saying it's not possible. I didn't have any scientific or medical facts to back up my claims.

What are your thoughts on this issue, and if you have any solid evidence to back it up please do so!
torvix2000
I think it has something more to do with confidence. You lose confidence and you lose everything! Last night, though, no amount of chin and punch resistance can save Hatton from that punch.
Imperius3
QUOTE (Fitz @ May 3 2009, 08:00 PM) *
Of course it can, look at Hatton, Morales, Vargas and especially Mayorga.


Why though? I'm looking for a medical explanation.
Maxy
The chin is one of the first things to go. They always say that your punch is the last thing to go.

Um...yeah, thats what they always say....sorry I'm hammered. Yeah but thats what I've been brought up to believe since I was a kid.

Fuck knows if its true though.
dbdbdb
QUOTE (Imperius3 @ May 3 2009, 08:53 PM) *
I was having an argument with a friend last night after the fight. We were talking about Hatton's two knockout losses, and I suggested maybe his first knockout loss to Mayweather softened him up a little bit. My friend said that couldn't be true because a fighter's chin stays strong throughout his career and never gets weaker. I brought up Vargas as an example, but he dismissed that saying it's not possible. I didn't have any scientific or medical facts to back up my claims.

What are your thoughts on this issue, and if you have any solid evidence to back it up please do so!


Imperius3, Historic facts may be enough to back up that claim.

Because HISTORICALLY, every fighter who's been KTFO COLD has never regained the chin they had prior. The only medical evidence that can be presented is the scar tissue accumulation and minor blood clots. While other injuries repair relatively easily {Body punches, broken nose etc...}, brain tissue, once damaged, remains damaged.

Academy Of Neurology
http://www.aan.com/press/index.cfm?fuseact...amp;release=470

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/553965

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dementia_pugilistica
http://www.insidermedicine.ca/archives/Ama...njury_1657.aspx
http://www.nytimes.com/1995/02/27/sports/b...-ban-sport.html
STEVENSKI
It can happen but I don't think it is a case of his chin "cracked".

Every single punch that dropped him & they were all one punch knockdowns was flush on the chin.
AussieLad
I think Lewis chipped Tuas chin a bit, and that guys chin was a fucking rock. He's never been KO'd, but i remember seeing him a little shaken in a few fights afterwoods. Cant remember which fight

And i dont think Sam Peter was the same after the Wlad fight.

Two guys with Easter Island stone slabs for heads, and once they got chipped by big punchers, stayed chipped
Col Reb
Sam Peter comes to mind as well. He walked through hell with Wladimir, only to be dropped three times by McCline.
torvix2000
As I've said, they lose confidence. And when they lose confidence, they get nervous one those haymakers will land again. And when your nervous, you're stiff, you no longer authority to throw shots you've used to throw before.

I WANT YOU ALL TO THINK OF FIGHTERS WHO DIDN'T LOSE CONFIDENCE after getting KTFOed. Those who trained harder. There may only be 5% of them. Or less.
AussieLad
QUOTE (torvix2000 @ May 4 2009, 01:27 AM) *
As I've said, they lose confidence. And when they lose confidence, they get nervous one those haymakers will land again. And when your nervous, you're stiff, you no longer authority to throw shots you've used to throw before.

I WANT YOU ALL TO THINK OF FIGHTERS WHO DIDN'T LOSE CONFIDENCE after getting KTFOed. Those who trained harder. There may only be 5% of them. Or less.


Darchinyan. The guy is all self confidence personified.

Never knocked down as an ammateur or pro before the donaire fight. Never even really wobbled. Then bam, and he's falling over fighting Z Gorres.
dbdbdb
Maybe a good example of this is in Football.

You guys ever notice that after a player suffers their first severe concussion .. They all of a sudden start having a concussion every time they get hit good from that point on.

Its like their impact resistance is diminished with each severe blow.
JonnyBlaze
If you've gone through hell before and never want to go back,fighters will go down from softer punches if they get hurt instead of trying to tough it out like they tried to do before..That is one case of what happens to some guys..They aren't willing to go back to that place because it was the worst feeling they have ever felt..
JLUVBABY
after a ko loss like that hatton probably will never be the same as a fighter.. he looked like he was overcome by the moment and reverted back to his old style.. just my thinking... manny proved he can get in there with the elite from 147 on down...
torvix2000
The timing of this thread is again to discredit Pacquiao where in fact, it was Pac who got starched how many times, got floored by a jab (crosseyed), hurt by Larios, then all of a sudden he can take flush shots from Morales and Marquez...
torvix2000
QUOTE (Fitz @ May 4 2009, 02:29 AM) *
Mayorga didn't lose confidence so that shoots your theory straight to shit. Sorry.


Sorry, but I wasn't the one who presented a theory here. By the way, all you guys have is a CONJECTURE. When a conjecture is proven, it becomes a theory. To disprove a conjecture, all you need is one counterexample.
The CEO
QUOTE (JonnyBlaze @ May 3 2009, 09:49 PM) *
If you've gone through hell before and never want to go back,fighters will go down from softer punches if they get hurt instead of trying to tough it out like they tried to do before..That is one case of what happens to some guys..They aren't willing to go back to that place because it was the worst feeling they have ever felt..



QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ May 3 2009, 10:07 PM) *
after a ko loss like that hatton probably will never be the same as a fighter.. he looked like he was overcome by the moment and reverted back to his old style.. just my thinking... manny proved he can get in there with the elite from 147 on down...


When your shit gets disconnected like last night, you are DEFINITELY never the same....like some of you are saying....it's mostly mental...Johnny explains a facet of it well above...once you get THAT kind of Fear in you....it's normally means curtains for you at the highest level...

and just for the record....a turnbuckle episode like Hatton had against Mayweather is almost as bad as being flattened....I took that into account.....a devestating embarrassment and then the subsequent Fear of a similar embarrasment can get all up in someone's mental....
torvix2000
Cumulative effects of just thinking about "I got knocked out cold"... will it happen again? A case of punch phobia setting in.
E.C.LEGEND
QUOTE (torvix2000 @ May 3 2009, 08:27 PM) *
As I've said, they lose confidence. And when they lose confidence, they get nervous one those haymakers will land again. And when your nervous, you're stiff, you no longer authority to throw shots you've used to throw before.

I WANT YOU ALL TO THINK OF FIGHTERS WHO DIDN'T LOSE CONFIDENCE after getting KTFOed. Those who trained harder. There may only be 5% of them. Or less.

"when your nervous, you're stiff" I don't know some peoples reflexes are actually better when there nervous our scared. but Roy Jones and Edison Miranda have never lost confidence after getting knocked out. to me a boxers chin is like a basketball players knee, once its injured your never the same.
Lil-lightsout
QUOTE (E.C.LEGEND @ May 3 2009, 11:12 PM) *
"when your nervous, you're stiff" I don't know some peoples reflexes are actually better when there nervous our scared. but Roy Jones and Edison Miranda have never lost confidence after getting knocked out. to me a boxers chin is like a basketball players knee, once its injured your never the same.


You never seen Jones against Glenn Johnson after the Tarver rematch.
E.C.LEGEND
QUOTE (Lil-lightsout @ May 3 2009, 11:02 PM) *
You never seen Jones against Glenn Johnson after the Tarver rematch.

na I only seen highlights and they were only glenn johnson highlights
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (E.C.LEGEND @ May 4 2009, 03:12 AM) *
Roy Jones and Edison Miranda have never lost confidence after getting knocked out.


I take it you never saw his cowardice in Tarver III?

QUOTE (E.C.LEGEND @ May 4 2009, 04:09 AM) *
na I only seen highlights and they were only glenn johnson highlights


That is because there were no Roy highlights.
E.C.LEGEND
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ May 3 2009, 11:27 PM) *
I take it you never saw his cowardice in Tarver III?



That is because there were no Roy highlights.

I seen him showboating in taver 3,to me that says he had confidence in that fight, but we never knew if roy had a chin to begin with because he really was never hit flush until tarver, johnson. Just like we don't know if that suck ass valuev has a chin because nobody can hit his face! lol
E.C.LEGEND
To add to the topic, what if a fighters chin has not been tested? Does that mean he has a good chin or a suspect chin? back on the topic look at zab judah, once he got knocked out and he changed his stlye and progressively got worse.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (E.C.LEGEND @ May 4 2009, 05:07 AM) *
I seen him showboating in taver 3,to me that says he had confidence in that fight,


No he was running from Tarver.

kidbazooka1
It's all in the head I remember seeing Varags take some brutal shots by Quartey same shots that dropped Oscar and he didn't even blink but once Tito got to him he would get wobbled by jabs by lesser fighters.
Imperius3
QUOTE (dbdbdb @ May 3 2009, 08:11 PM) *
Imperius3, Historic facts may be enough to back up that claim.

Because HISTORICALLY, every fighter who's been KTFO COLD has never regained the chin they had prior. The only medical evidence that can be presented is the scar tissue accumulation and minor blood clots. While other injuries repair relatively easily {Body punches, broken nose etc...}, brain tissue, once damaged, remains damaged.

Academy Of Neurology
http://www.aan.com/press/index.cfm?fuseact...amp;release=470

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/553965

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dementia_pugilistica
http://www.insidermedicine.ca/archives/Ama...njury_1657.aspx
http://www.nytimes.com/1995/02/27/sports/b...-ban-sport.html


Thanks for the links.

Basically, it seems as though once the brain has been touched, it's never quite the same. However, there hasn't really been a conclusive study done. From the wikipedia article: "It has not been conclusively shown that repeat concussions necessarily lead to cumulative brain damage, and some scientists argue that boxers who get chronic traumatic encephalopathy are genetically predisposed. Boxers with the apolipoprotein Eε-4 gene may be at higher risk for CTE."

From watching boxing over the years, I think the answer is pretty clear though. Confidence is part of it yes, but brain damage is irreversible. Once you touch the brain, never the same, and I just think that's how it sadly goes...
JaRaNDa
I think there is such a thing as 'chin damage' to fighters, but maybe not all cases! In regards to the BRUTAL KO last night it was more due to Hatton having his hands down, foot placed wrong, chin in the air & (watch the replay) mouth opened which caused him to be down & out for as long as he was!
By the looks of things Vargas appear to be effected by this the most!
Big Slim Sweet
If you saw the way Augie Sanchez went down 30 seconds into his fight with John Michael Johnson, a little over a year after going down in similar fashion against Prince Naseem, you'd say that yes, a fighter's chin can indeed suffer irreparable damage.
JLUVBABY
i think its safe to say a fighter getting ko'd in that kind of fashion is determined by mindset and a fighter to fighter basis.. look at julian jackson... he was ko'd worse than hatton and came back to be a strong force... it just goes from fighter to fighter...
King Eugene
QUOTE (torvix2000 @ May 3 2009, 09:27 PM) *
As I've said, they lose confidence. And when they lose confidence, they get nervous one those haymakers will land again. And when your nervous, you're stiff, you no longer authority to throw shots you've used to throw before.

I WANT YOU ALL TO THINK OF FIGHTERS WHO DIDN'T LOSE CONFIDENCE after getting KTFOed. Those who trained harder. There may only be 5% of them. Or less.

Kosta Tsyzu comes to mind.
King Eugene
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ May 4 2009, 12:27 AM) *
I take it you never saw his cowardice in Tarver III?



That is because there were no Roy highlights.

Tarver 3 - Checkout rounds 4 and 5. He showed heart in 11 by not letting himself get stopped. Speak your peace (cause I know you will) but its nothing I will debate with you cause you and I both seen it but you'll never admit it.

Jones had a few shining moments in the Johnson fight but it was overshadowed by Glenns moments. Thats like saying Hatton didn't have his moments again Mayweather. They still somehow manged to get a few clips in here and there to show for the highlights to build up for the last fight. Either you didn't watch it or will admit to watching it but for the promo for Jones-Sheika most of the hightlights for Jones where against Glenn.

But oh well...I know who I'm talking to so you'll find some way to degrade Roy but you know his all time worth weather you want to admit it or not.
King Eugene
QUOTE (Fitz @ May 5 2009, 01:01 AM) *
Disagree. He didn't have a glass chin before or after his first KO. He became a better fighter after his first KO and improved, but I think they are asking about the chin only and I don't think his chin changed much.

I never said he had a glass chin.
QUOTE (torvix2000 @ May 3 2009, 09:27 PM) *
I WANT YOU ALL TO THINK OF FIGHTERS WHO DIDN'T LOSE CONFIDENCE after getting KTFOed. Those who trained harder. There may only be 5% of them. Or less.

I was replying to this.
After getting KO'd he came back strong nor did he lose confidence. Even you along with others said it made him a better fighter.
King Eugene
QUOTE (Fitz @ May 5 2009, 01:17 AM) *
What point were you trying to make then? This was about chins and how peoples chin get effected before and after.

My point was even though you get knocked out it doesn't mean it will affect your career. Some fighters it help cause they come back stronger...some fighters diminish and careers go down the drain ala Judah. He asked what fighters lost confidence and who came back to train harder. To me thats clearly what KT did.
JonnyBlaze
Wlad Klitchko became a 100% better in the ring after being KO'd by Brewster and Sanders..I believe he takes a better punch these days now too..I think sometimes you need to get knocked down from an extremely hard punch and get up from it to know you took that punch and got up from it and will take that very same punch better next time..Or take a massive shot and get fazed but stay up..It'll build confidence knowing you may have just taken the best that guy has..It may also help for future fights with guys who have slightly less power..You'll just know you've been hit harder and this will keep you up..

This post is kinda the opposite of my other one about how fighters don't want to go back into hell after being there..Like I said,that was one case..This is definitely another..
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