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D-MARV
I think most here would agree that Sugar Ray Robinson was the greatest of all time in terms of skill, accomplishments, and overall career.

But if for One Night you had to pick a fighter who was at the peak of their performance who would you pick?


Throw some names out there and discuss.


I'm rolling with Roy Jones.
JonnyBlaze
I'd pick Sugar Ray Robinson for sure at 160..
Douchebag
QUOTE (JonnyBlaze @ May 7 2009, 02:01 PM) *
I'd pick Sugar Ray Robinson for sure at 160..



i always thought he was better at Welter.
PUERTOROCKS
SRR at middle

RJJ in the late 90's.

Rocky Marciano

kidbazooka1
JC Chavez

Salvador Sanchez
caneman
While what SRR did @ middle was pure greatness, his main body of work was @ 147 by far! We don't really even have any film of him when he was @ his VERY BEST!
Big Slim Sweet
Well I'm just going to list a few that I watched as they unfolded live with my eyes in my lifetime.

Pacman @ 135
Pacman @ 140
Pacman @ 147

Just having a little fun with you all.

I guess Jones at 168 would be the one, much as I don't like it.
Romulus9
At 168, Roy Jones. Easy pick.

At 160, I think a Jones-Hagler prime vs. prime matchup would have been absolutely amazing. Hopkins is in the mix along with Monzon.

Ray Robinson was at his best at welterweight but Henry Armstrong HAS to be right there without much doubt. Duran was still tough at 147 but Hearns was absolutely SICK at both 147 and 154. The power. My God, the power!

The best debate comes at lightweight. Roberto Duran, Henry Armstrong, Benny Leonard, and Pernell Whitaker. Think about the other names that have gone through that division on their way to 140 or 147, including Mosley, Chavez, Rosario, and de la Hoya. There, by a NARROW margin, I take Duran over the rest with Armstrong right there with him, perhaps 1a and 1b rather than 1-2.

I hate the fact that Armstrong tends to be a forgotten man in these debates.



Ray Leonard is nowhere to be found on the lists. Any of them. Ever.
Lil-lightsout
The Roy Jones that beat Toney at 168 would have beat anyone at anytime in any era!

The Pernell Whitaker that beat JLR in the rematch would have been hard to beat by any lightweight ever too.

kidbazooka1
How could i forget Duran the only guy to beat a prime Ray Leonard.

I say Duran of the first Leonard fight gives Robinson a run for his money he's the only fighter that i can say that about.
torvix2000
QUOTE (Lil-lightsout @ May 7 2009, 11:16 PM) *
The Pernell Whitaker that beat JLR in the rematch would have been hard to beat by any lightweight ever too.


Annoying great SOB!
STEVENSKI
This is just so damm tough. There are so many worthy fighters over the decades.

Do you look at Louis when he demolished Schmelling I mean that was total heavyweight perfection never seen before or since.

Do you look at Duran getting revenge on Esteban De Jesus? That was one of the finest ligtweight fights I have ever seen due to the two guys skill levels. De Jesus is a much forgotten fighter IMO.

Hearns vs Cuevas? He destroyed the reigning champion with power & precision.

Dempsey destroying the top contender in Firpo in one of the most brutal & thrilling battles ever?

The list goes on & on & it is really very difficult to list one as the be all & end all.
King Eugene
QUOTE (damarvelous1 @ May 7 2009, 01:55 PM) *
I think most here would agree that Sugar Ray Robinson was the greatest of all time in terms of skill, accomplishments, and overall career.

But if for One Night you had to pick a fighter who was at the peak of their performance who would you pick?


Throw some names out there and discuss.


I'm rolling with Roy Jones.

Roy F'n Jones Jr.!

No but seriously at 168 he was incredible. Then at 175 he was a monster as well. Wouldn't say he was the best 175 lber ever but he was atleast top 3. His safety first style didn't please a lot of fans in the same way Mayweather's doesn't but when he gets mad and is out to prove a point he was a man against boys in the ring. Just ask Montel Griffin.
Lil-lightsout
QUOTE (3King3 @ May 7 2009, 08:54 PM) *
Roy F'n Jones Jr.!


Didn't see that coming! laugh.gif
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE (The Conscience @ May 7 2009, 01:08 PM) *
i always thought he was better at Welter.

He was better at welterweight but Roy wouldn't make welter..
torvix2000
Roy Jones... one of the greats I really hated. Long before his chin was touched. People talked about his athletic gifts. I say I see his brain piloting the fastest F1 race car. Skills to use the speed. But I did enjoy him getting KTFOed. Too late for me, coz I've already seen his greatness by cherry picking on Ruiz. LOL! That type of cherry picking seemed very hard to accomplish. I would have to wait for Hopkins, and the likes, to cherry pick on a heavyweight champ... no matter how shi*ty that champ is.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ May 7 2009, 06:44 PM) *
This is just so damm tough. There are so many worthy fighters over the decades.

Do you look at Louis when he demolished Schmelling I mean that was total heavyweight perfection never seen before or since.

Louis would of beaten any man infront of him that night when he fought Schmeling..He was never so focused than in that fight..He trained his hardest and listened to every single word that Blackburn told him in training..Blackburn whooped the shit out of Jack Johnson back in the day and after that Jack Johnson had beef with Blackburn and tried to take Louis away from him..When Louis and his people said no,Johnson talked maddd shit about Louis..Blackburn in my opinion is the best trainer ever along with Ray Arcel..

We all forgot to mention Benny Leonard,Willie Pep,Archie Moore..

I'll throw Bob Foster out there too..Marciano deserves mention..I have new found appreciation of Marciano..His defense actually was better than what I thought/remembered..I watched a 3 hour thing on him on Ringside and he was a lot better defensively than I thought..

Salvador Sanchez==best mexican fighter ever in my opinion..He would of definitely surpassed Chavez in everyone's mind had he not died..

Harry Gred deserves mention for his accomplishments and for putting whoopings on Dempsey and Jack Johnson in sparring..
Romulus9
QUOTE (JonnyBlaze @ May 7 2009, 10:08 PM) *
Louis would of beaten any man infront of him that night when he fought Schmeling..He was never so focused than in that fight..



Schmeling was already on the decline when he fought Louis the first time, and even further down the second time. That's not to downplay the importance of Louis' win, which goes far beyond the context of sport, but it's not like he destroyed a prime Jack Dempsey.

I think the Mike Tyson from June 22, 1988 would have given Louis all he wanted.
King Eugene
QUOTE (Lil-lightsout @ May 7 2009, 09:48 PM) *
Didn't see that coming! laugh.gif

For real? I knew no one would expect that one coming from the BIGGEST TARVER FAN on the boards! thumbsup_anim.gif
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE (wvu8893 @ May 7 2009, 09:11 PM) *
Schmeling was already on the decline when he fought Louis the first time, and even further down the second time. That's not to downplay the importance of Louis' win, which goes far beyond the context of sport, but it's not like he destroyed a prime Jack Dempsey.

I think the Mike Tyson from June 22, 1988 would have given Louis all he wanted.

Tyson would have been KO'd by Louis..Why the fuck does everyone think Tyson has the solution for ever great past heavyweight..Louis would shit on Tyson..Louis' skills were way ahead of Tyson..

Schmeling would of never beat that Louis in the second fight..That was the best Louis..Dude,Louis fucking broke Schmeling's back,his jaw,and ribs in under one round..Tyson never produced that kind of damage in under 3 minutes..Louis had really good defense and was always set to punch anywhere in the ring..Tyson would go down and be out from Louis' left hook to the body and right hand to the head..Tyson's head movement was fast but was predictable..Blackburn would pick Tyson apart and Louis would dispose of him..

STEVENSKI
There are also long forgotten fighters like Mickey Walker who is one of the finest ever to lace them up & forgotten legends like "The ghost with the hammer in his hands" (awesome nickmane IMO) Jimmy Wilde.

Those guys had the mad skills & accomplishments far above their true weight class & proved it time & time again against the very best they could find. I hate to think how many world title belts that Walker would have won today 5, 6, 7 division titlist?


JonnyBlaze
QUOTE (3King3 @ May 7 2009, 09:15 PM) *
For real? I knew no one would expect that one coming from the BIGGEST TARVER FAN on the boards! thumbsup_anim.gif

Roy was good at 160 but I wasn't anywhere near as impressed with him at 168 and 175..There was something about Roy at 160 that I just didn't like too much,I don't know what though..I feel like he got faster when he moved up to 168..I think the extra food consumption(more weight) helped..
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ May 7 2009, 09:26 PM) *
There are also long forgotten fighters like Mickey Walker who is one of the finest ever to lace them up & forgotten legends like "The ghost with the hammer in his hands" (awesome nickmane IMO) Jimmy Wilde.

Those guys had the mad skills & accomplishments far above their true weight class & proved it time & time again against the very best they could find. I hate to think how many world title belts that Walker would have won today 5, 6, 7 division titlist?

Hell naw,I was just thinking Mickey Walker myself..He is one of the most forgotten legends..I was really surprised no one said Benny Leonard before me as well..I'm sure you were thinkin his name though..I'm real glad you have a good knowledge of the oldies like me..
King Eugene
QUOTE (wvu8893 @ May 7 2009, 10:11 PM) *
Schmeling was already on the decline when he fought Louis the first time, and even further down the second time. That's not to downplay the importance of Louis' win, which goes far beyond the context of sport, but it's not like he destroyed a prime Jack Dempsey.

I think the Mike Tyson from June 22, 1988 would have given Louis all he wanted.

I'm with you on this one. I think that Tyson would have given ANY heavyweight fits!
Romulus9
QUOTE (JonnyBlaze @ May 7 2009, 10:28 PM) *
Hell naw,I was just thinking Mickey Walker myself..He is one of the most forgotten legends..I was really surprised no one said Benny Leonard before me as well..I'm sure you were thinkin his name though..I'm real glad you have a good knowledge of the oldies like me..



Ahem... post #8 ... rolleyes_anim.gif yahoo.gif ...

QUOTE (wvu8893 @ May 7 2009, 03:05 PM) *
At 168, Roy Jones. Easy pick.

At 160, I think a Jones-Hagler prime vs. prime matchup would have been absolutely amazing. Hopkins is in the mix along with Monzon.

Ray Robinson was at his best at welterweight but Henry Armstrong HAS to be right there without much doubt. Duran was still tough at 147 but Hearns was absolutely SICK at both 147 and 154. The power. My God, the power!

The best debate comes at lightweight. Roberto Duran, Henry Armstrong, Benny Leonard, and Pernell Whitaker. Think about the other names that have gone through that division on their way to 140 or 147, including Mosley, Chavez, Rosario, and de la Hoya. There, by a NARROW margin, I take Duran over the rest with Armstrong right there with him, perhaps 1a and 1b rather than 1-2.

I hate the fact that Armstrong tends to be a forgotten man in these debates.



Ray Leonard is nowhere to be found on the lists. Any of them. Ever.
King Eugene
QUOTE (JonnyBlaze @ May 7 2009, 10:24 PM) *
Tyson would have been KO'd by Louis..Why the fuck does everyone think Tyson has the solution for ever great past heavyweight..Louis would shit on Tyson..Louis' skills were way ahead of Tyson..

Schmeling would of never beat that Louis in the second fight..That was the best Louis..Dude,Louis fucking broke Schmeling's back,his jaw,and ribs in under one round..Tyson never produced that kind of damage in under 3 minutes..Louis had really good defense and was always set to punch anywhere in the ring..Tyson would go down and be out from Louis' left hook to the body and right hand to the head..Tyson's head movement was fast but was predictable..Blackburn would pick Tyson apart and Louis would dispose of him..

Johnny I have no problem with your assessments but you kill me sometimes how you never give any modern day fighter any chance against the old heads. You make it seem like these guys today are straight rudy poot pussys.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (JonnyBlaze @ May 8 2009, 03:28 AM) *
Hell naw,I was just thinking Mickey Walker myself..He is one of the most forgotten legends..I was really surprised no one said Benny Leonard before me as well..I'm sure you were thinkin his name though..I'm real glad you have a good knowledge of the oldies like me..



You have to know & truly appreciate the old & bold to see how disgusted I am by most of todays fighters. Winky Wright is a classic example of a modern day disgrace to the sport. He talks a big game thinks he is worth more than he is & refuses to make fights repeatedly preferring to sit out for a year than fight. In the old school that type of behaviour would see you frozen out altogether.

That is why Pac is like a breath of fresh air - anyone - anywhere - anytime.
Romulus9
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ May 7 2009, 10:43 PM) *
You have to know & truly appreciate the old & bold to see how disgusted I am by most of todays fighters. Winky Wright is a classic example of a modern day disgrace to the sport. He talks a big game thinks he is worth more than he is & refuses to make fights repeatedly preferring to sit out for a year than fight. In the old school that type of behaviour would see you frozen out altogether.

That is why Pac is like a breath of fresh air - anyone - anywhere - anytime.



+1

Agreed across the board, 100%.
D-MARV
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ May 7 2009, 10:43 PM) *
You have to know & truly appreciate the old & bold to see how disgusted I am by most of todays fighters. Winky Wright is a classic example of a modern day disgrace to the sport. He talks a big game thinks he is worth more than he is & refuses to make fights repeatedly preferring to sit out for a year than fight. In the old school that type of behaviour would see you frozen out altogether.

That is why Pac is like a breath of fresh air - anyone - anywhere - anytime.

Sad that won't be the case any longer... PWill will fight Bernard Hopkins tomorrow then shane Mosley the following week.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (damarvelous1 @ May 8 2009, 02:47 AM) *
Sad that won't be the case any longer... PWill will fight Bernard Hopkins tomorrow then shane Mosley the following week.


I know but the point is that Robinson can take a loss against LaMotta in a brutal war & then back up 3 weeks, yes that is weeks not 3 months or 3 years later & do it again. I understand that with network deals & PPV etc that is not the case but that is why there will be very few fighters in the future that can be mentioned in the same breath as the old & bold.

Pacman love him loathe him or feel neutral about him does the best he can in the current climate listed above & that is to be admired.
Lil-lightsout
QUOTE (3King3 @ May 7 2009, 10:15 PM) *
For real? I knew no one would expect that one coming from the BIGGEST TARVER FAN on the boards! thumbsup_anim.gif


laugh.gif Crazy that I always despised Tarver, yet I see me rooting for him against Dawson. Why? What is wrong with my logic? It is like I want Tarver to win to make the Jones victory not look like a fluke, like Tarver is not a only one hit wonder. Also, Dawson seems OK, but it be nice to see the undefeated lose sometimes.
King Eugene
QUOTE (Lil-lightsout @ May 8 2009, 12:46 AM) *
laugh.gif Crazy that I always despised Tarver, yet I see me rooting for him against Dawson. Why? What is wrong with my logic? It is like I want Tarver to win to make the Jones victory not look like a fluke, like Tarver is not a only one hit wonder. Also, Dawson seems OK, but it be nice to see the undefeated lose sometimes.

Thats exactly what Tarver is.........A ONE HIT WONDER! Fucking Faggit!

I like Dawson, hell he's the guy I give the biggest chance of beating Calzaghe.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE (3King3 @ May 7 2009, 09:42 PM) *
Johnny I have no problem with your assessments but you kill me sometimes how you never give any modern day fighter any chance against the old heads. You make it seem like these guys today are straight rudy poot pussys.

I'd give guys like Roy Jones,James Toney,B-Hop,Floyd Mayweather,Chad Dawson(not against Archie,Ezzard,or Bob Foster though),and even someone like Casamayor chances to beat older fighters..

Go back and watch Joe Louis vs. Max Baer,Buddy Baer 1 and 2(when he broke Baers ankle from hitting him so hard with a right hand that it spun him around),Braddock,Walcott 1 and 2,Schemeling 2,Sharkey,Godoy 2..Louis loved guys who came after him like Tyson would..I'd expect a lot of uppercuts from Louis to straighten Tyson up or his KO combo,left hook to the body,right to the head..Tyson isn't too great when he's in there with a guy with a good jab..Buster Douglas showed that and his jab is easier to see than Louis who threw his from the shoulder with no elbow hangin out..

Tyson in his prime beat guys like Tillis,Bonecrusher,Trevor B,Thomas..I give Tyson props for the Frank Bruno and Biggs fights but they both didn't have the boxing IQ of Joe Louis..
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ May 7 2009, 09:43 PM) *
You have to know & truly appreciate the old & bold to see how disgusted I am by most of todays fighters. Winky Wright is a classic example of a modern day disgrace to the sport. He talks a big game thinks he is worth more than he is & refuses to make fights repeatedly preferring to sit out for a year than fight. In the old school that type of behaviour would see you frozen out altogether.

That is why Pac is like a breath of fresh air - anyone - anywhere - anytime.

Exactly man!!Guys back then would keep learning too..They would fight the best to be the best..Who did Joe Louis not fight??Who did Archie Moore and Ezzard Charles not fight??Who did Benny Leonard not fight??Who did Greb not fight(that was willing to take on a task like him)??These guys proved what they were and are today..Mickey Walker is another case..Dempsey fought Jess Willard even though he seriously thought he was going to die in the ring..I can't say that for many guys today..

Ya all say Tyson was past his prime when he fought Lewis and Holy,but they were meant to beat him and would have..Ya can't rely on guys being afraid of you in the ring..He was too weak mentally and you guys think he's god..Boxing is 90% mental and 10% physical..
BigG
Tyson wouldve destroyed Lewis in his prime...just like he did when they were teens...lol....
STEVENSKI
Seriously you have so many forgotten guys like Joe Gans & of course Grand Rapids greatest fighter Stan Ketchel.

You also have more modern greats like Arguello & Zarate.

Barney Ross deserves special mention with his spectacular career as a 3 division champion (yes that is champion not paper titlist) & never being KO'd losing 4 times in 80+ bouts.

There are so many truly great fighters from the past & they deserve the proper respect.
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