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thehype
Pacfanatics will find this hard to believe, but you guys should already know that I wouldn't lie to you...

Some inside sources have told me that apparently Freddie Roach doesn't like the idea of Manny fighting Mayweather. He's not so confident that Manny would have as much success against a style like Floyd's so he prefers to push that fight back as much as possible and would rather fight guys like Cotto or Mosley, who are more willing to come right at PacMan. That's part of the reason why he says Mayweather vs. Marquez will be a boring fight...he's basically setting up an excuse to delay the fight.

I can't say that I blame him though. After working with a great counter-puncher like James Toney for so many years, he's fully aware of the difficulties in facing that style. While I'm sure he's confident of Manny, I also think he knows that a fight with Cotto or Mosley might be easier stylistically for his fighter, so he'd rather face them first....hence the reason why they're not going to wait on Mayweather.

Anyway, not that it matters much though since I highly doubt the two sides would come to agreement on the split anyway...just thought it was interesting. That's not to say that the fight won't happen though as HBO could easily throw a ton of money at them that they just couldn't refuse. But still...Freddie Roach is a smart man. Despite what he may say to the rest of the world, he does recognize the task at hand if Manny were to indeed face Mayweather.

Speaking of Mayweather, sources also tell me that Al Haymon played a major role in Floyd's decision to return. Apparently, a lot of the money-making schemes that Floyd thought he would get (movie roles, book deals, video games, concert promotions) just didn't pan out. He was under the impression that he'd become some big concert promoter in the music industry. He was hoping Al Haymon, a major concert promoter in his own right, would bring him into the business by co-promoting events with him. Haymon essentially told Floyd that he didn't need to waste his time co-promoting with him because Floyd brought nothing to the table...basically, he reminded him that he's just a fighter and if he ain't fighting, quite frankly, he didn't have any use for him. Ouch! Damn Al! Help a brotha out!

Speaking of brothas, apparently, Zab Judah vs. Randall Bailey isn't even close to happening. Judah's is trying to pull some strings in hopes of getting a fight with Bailey sanctioned for the title. The problem is that Judah is currently ranked #7 by the IBF. Bailey's no fool. He knows he's sitting in the #1 position and he's not going to jeopardize his chance of getting a crack at the title. I guess I should probably turn that into a blurb and put it out there on the front page. LOL.
Mean Mister Mustard
One would have assumed that at this point in Pacquiao's career he would care more about legacy. I mean, after Mayweather beats Marquez isn't that the best time to make a Pacquiao-Mayweather fight? Pacquiao would have little to lose, he's already proven he's an all time great. The only thing that a defeat might affect would be his paychecks and I said MIGHT. He sure didn't self destruct after the Morales loss. I don't get it, why be afraid of a loss?

As for Mayweather returning, I was not surprised, never believed he was retired and along with other posters still considered him an active fighter. He's one of the best known boxers in the U.S but that isn't enough to become a mianstream star. I mean he got voted off that Dancing show not because he was bad but because no one cared about him. I think that speaks volumes about how little sway boxing has on the mainstream, that when a fighter transcends boxing for just a little bit they view that as a big feat and immediatly think they are big stars.
Lil-lightsout
Me personally, I could care less if Mayweather and Pac fought. I pretty much see Mayweather dominating Pac anyway, unless Pac could land a big shot and hurt PBF. It is just a fight where the hype is ridiculous right now, and people want to see it. I would much rather see Pac fight Bradley, Guzman, or JMM at 140. And if Pac did move up to 147, a fight with him and Mosley, Cotto, Berto-Urango winner would be far more entertaining to watch.

As for PBF, after JMM, I would rather him in with some welterweights anyways or take a chance and call PW back down to welterweight. I would love the style match-up between PBF and PW. It would be refreshing for someone to call out PW for once.
Box in Hand
This was something I posted before. Roach may move slow but he isn't stupid. He knows Mayweather beats Pac. I'm surprised at anyone thinking Manny can win. They say Mayweather runs, I say he hits without getting hit. They say he's boring, I say he's methodical. They say he's scared, I say he's tactical. I know I'm gonna catch shit for that because May has so many enemies and I don't blame them. He tries to be Ali but Ali had class May doesn't. I just ask people to use logic. Mayweather is a counter puncher which kills Manny's style. He also has speed which Manny has but most of Manny's opponents have been slow (Diaz, De La Hoya, Marquez, etc.). Bottom line is, if you use logic you will see, Mayweather rocks Pac Man.
BoxingPain
Sorry to say but that's completely BS. Every message board always has some posters saying they have friends who have inside sources.

I'd rather believe Ariza, Pac's conditioning coach as he's clearly in the inner circle. According to him that appeared in this article, http://www.manilastandardtoday.com/?page=sports1_may14_2009
Roach wants Mayweather Jr.

Roach has always been consistent that he wants the biggest money fight for Pac and Mayweather is it. Roach has never been one to throw initial volleys of trash talking but he's doing a lot of that lately about Mayweather. After the De La Hoya fight, he issued a challenge to May to come out of retirement and they'll give him his first L. Lately, he's been commenting about Mayweather-Marquez being a fight only for no. 2 and that Floyd should be called Fraud... he's not number 1. Basically, he's saying Pac is no. 1. and if May wants to be no. 1, he needs to fight Pac. If he really didn't want Mayweather, he won't be goading Mayweather's camp.

As for who is going to win the fight if Pac and May met... I also think May has the upper hand if May is still the old May. We'll see how he looks on July 18.

Sugar Q
It's good that it has finally come out which team is full of shit. It was clear all along that it was team Pacquiao that doesn't want this fight. The Marquez fight is nerve wrecking for them cause not only does Mayweather beat Marquez but he stops him. Also the myth of who's the bigger draw has come to surface which right now clearly is Mayweather. I honestly don't see this fight happening specially if Manny has to get past the Clottey/Cotto winner.
salvador
Hype,

I was shocked to see you have Pac winning by "controversial split decision" over Floyd in your article today. I just can't see it.

Roach is totally right to be concerned because Floyd's going to be the quickest fighter Manny's ever faced and Pac simply won't be coming in without eating some quick, heavy, accurate jabs from Floyd all night. Manny is too small for Floyd AND Pac's style is tailor made for Floyd. It's insane for Pac to fight Floyd before he's fought both Guzman and Valero (particularly Valero). That said, this fight seems to be the only thing anyone in the sport wants and my guess is that Pac will have one more fight before seeing Floyd sometime next spring.

Judah-Bailey: now that's a fight I'd LOVE to see. And if Judah won, I'd love to see him fight Pac at 140. Floyd can wait. Better yet, Floyd can fight a real ww while he waits.
thehype
QUOTE (BoxingPain @ May 14 2009, 12:41 PM) *
Sorry to say but that's completely BS. Every message board always has some posters saying they have friends who have inside sources.

I'd rather believe Ariza, Pac's conditioning coach as he's clearly in the inner circle. According to him that appeared in this article, http://www.manilastandardtoday.com/?page=sports1_may14_2009
Roach wants Mayweather Jr.

Roach has always been consistent that he wants the biggest money fight for Pac and Mayweather is it. Roach has never been one to throw initial volleys of trash talking but he's doing a lot of that lately about Mayweather. After the De La Hoya fight, he issued a challenge to May to come out of retirement and they'll give him his first L. Lately, he's been commenting about Mayweather-Marquez being a fight only for no. 2 and that Floyd should be called Fraud... he's not number 1. Basically, he's saying Pac is no. 1. and if May wants to be no. 1, he needs to fight Pac. If he really didn't want Mayweather, he won't be goading Mayweather's camp.

As for who is going to win the fight if Pac and May met... I also think May has the upper hand if May is still the old May. We'll see how he looks on July 18.


Ummmm...for one, I'm not just some poster who says he has friends who have inside sources...I think I've dropped enough scoops over the years to warrant some credibility around here and in the industry, but whatever. Believe what you want. While Ariza is telling a Philippine newspaper that Roach only wants Mayweather, Roach is actually coming on record himself and telling credible sources like Brian Kenny of ESPN that they're not going to wait for Mayweather. In fact, I believe his direct quote was:

QUOTE
We're not going to wait for Floyd, that's for sure. No, we won't wait for him! The thing is we're waiting to see what happens in the Cotto fight and we're going to wait and see what Shane decides on. You know, everyone wants to fight Pacquiao because that's where the money is now so Valero's been mentioned, Victor Ortiz has been mentioned, Amir Khan has been mentioned, even though I train him, but the most attractive one and the biggest fight and I think the fight that people want to see, of course, is Mayweather.


That was just last Thursday. I'm not saying Roach is an idiot...of course he realizes that the biggest and most profitable fight is one with Mayweather. I'm just saying that he also thinks that out of all the options out there, Mayweather presents the most difficult style to look good against and if he had his choice of the next multi-million dollar fight, he'd rather face a guy coming at Pacquiao than a guy who's a counter puncher. Now, that's not to say things can't change. If Manny truly is considering retirement after his next fight, then of course Freddie is going to say, "what the hell...let's take a crack at Floyd!" However, what I was told on Tuesday was that a discussion was held with Roach over the weekend and when asked by some brass at HBO for his preference of who to face next, Roach commented that he didn't think Mayweather's style was a good fit for Manny so he preferred to face someone who comes right at him in order to produce a more exciting and entertaining fight.

Take it for what it's worth. That doesn't necessarily mean that they're ducking Floyd...it just means if Manny has 3 or 4 more fights still in him, Roach would rather face a couple of other guys that he thinks are beatable before facing Floyd. Truth be told, that makes good business sense...especially if you want the upper hand at the negotiating table, which Pacquiao simply won't have if Mayweather beats Marquez (as an undefeated fighter who already beat everyone that Pacquiao has recently beaten, HBO is going to favor Mayweather since he doesn't have a promoter, hence the reason they were so anxious for him to come back and willing to give him so much damn money).
Mean Mister Mustard
From what the front page indicates, the Pacquiao-Hatton fight did around 850 000 buys. Not bad but certainly not the 2 mil. that were being reported.
thehype
I also forgot to mention that HBO and Arum actually prefer the Cotto fight as they're hoping it'll be somewhat competitive and could possibly warrant a rematch depending on the outcome. They believe the Filippino and Puerto Rican clash will generate some serious PPV dollars.
thehype
QUOTE (salvador @ May 14 2009, 01:54 PM) *
Hype,

I was shocked to see you have Pac winning by "controversial split decision" over Floyd in your article today. I just can't see it.


I only say that now based on the Floyd who fought Hatton, De La Hoya, Judah and Baldomir. In my opinion, that Floyd had gotten bored with the sport and spent way too much time being cute and defensive in all of those fights while throwing very few punches and combinations...hence the reason why a lot of those fights went as long as they did. If Floyd fought all of those guys with the same nasty attitude he had fought Gatti, N'dou or Corrales with, I think he would have stopped them (maybe not Baldomir) very early in those fights.

If that Floyd shows up to face Pacquiao, I really think Pacquiao could win a controversial split decision because I think the judges would give him way too much credit for punches that don't land. I certainly don't think Pacquiao would beat him up...Floyd's just way too slick defensively...but I think Pacquiao's hand speed and in-and-out movement would bug Floyd just a little and although the punches might not land, the judges would favor that kind of activity over the defense of Floyd. Hell, if one damn judge thought that De La Hoya beat Floyd in a fight I had him winning 8 rounds to 4 (not to mention, a lot of average fans thought it should be a draw), then I can DEFINITELY see the judges giving the fight to Manny in a controversial decision that would be talked about as much as Trinidad's win over De La Hoya.

Now, if Floyd shows up with a nasty attitude and a chip on his shoulders, then I think Manny could be in serious jeopardy of being stopped with Floyd's underrated body punches. At this point, I'm just not sure which Floyd is going to show up. His fight with Marquez will say a lot because in my opinion, Marquez won't have enough pop to hurt Floyd so Floyd should be able to stop him late in the fight. If that's the case, then I'll DEFINITELY change my pick ASAP! If, however, that fight goes the distance and Floyd looks bored and too defensive, then yeah...I'll stick with my call of Pacquiao by CONTROVERSIAL split decision (and a rematch will follow).
thehype
I'll tell you what though...some his fans sure are going to make me root for Mayweather if that fight ever happens. LOL.

This truly does harkon back to the days of Trinidad's climb through the divisions.

laugh.gif
BoxingPain
Basically what you're saying is if it's Pac's last fight (and it very well may be as he told some journalists yesterday that he plans to retire after a fight in October), Roach wants Mayweather. If not, they'd rather fight all these other fighters first before Mayweather. I still find that hard to believe because first, you never postpone the opportunity to make the biggest money and second, Roach believes that Pac is in his prime right now and Mayweather is coming off a long layoff and if there was a time to get May, the time is NOW. If Pac fights Cotto and he loses, (a very real possibility) he can kiss his big payday with Mayweather goodbye since a loss to Cotto would mean losing one's bargaining power with May's camp as the big draw. The only one who gains the most from Pac-Cotto is Arum who promotes both boxers.

I think what Roach is doing by saying that they're not waiting for Mayweather is basically posturing to make it appear that they have options other than May. He didn't just say this recently to an ESPN writer, he said this already before right after the Hatton fight. This is just posturing to have an extra chip on the bargaining table. By letting May know they have options, they can say if you don't fight us, we'll fight with Cotto... we don't need you.
Jack 1000
QUOTE
Me personally, I could care less if Mayweather and Pac fought. I pretty much see Mayweather dominating Pac anyway, unless Pac could land a big shot and hurt PBF.


I hear what you're saying. But why couldn't Manny just fight Floyd like Castillo did the first time? Pressure the shit out of him where Floyd can't be so "tactical." I have yet to see other fighters do that successfully. OK, Hatton tried it some, but Cortez was on his case too much for it to work. I am not saying that had Hatton been allowed to bull-rush more, it would have made a difference because it probably would not have.

I think Manny has two ways where he would have a chance: I mean he's got to rip into Floyd like Hagler and Hearns round 1 where they tore into each other and Floyd thinks I don't like that kind of pressure OR Manny has to land a big shot, either by doing the mauling bull-rushing. Give Floyd what he hasn't had since Castillo I and what he doesn't like, a brawl. Otherwise, it's a fairly easy win for Floyd.

Jack
Box in Hand
QUOTE (Jack 1000 @ May 14 2009, 02:22 PM) *
I hear what you're saying. But why couldn't Manny just fight Floyd like Castillo did the first time? Pressure the shit out of him where Floyd can't be so "tactical?" I have yet to see other fighters do that successfully. OK, Hatton tried it some, but Cortez was on his case too much for it to work. I am not saying that had Hatton been allowed to bull-rush more, it would have made a difference because it probably would not have.

I think Manny has two ways where he would have a chance: I mean he's got to rip into Floyd like Hagler and Hearns round 1 where they tore into each other and Floyd thinks I don't like that kind of pressure OR Manny has to land a big shot, either by doing the mauling bull-rushing. Give Floyd what he hasn't had since Castillo I and what he doesn't like, a brawl. Otherwise, it's a fairly easy win for Floyd.

Jack


Pac doesn't have the size or body puch capability of Castillo.
thehype
QUOTE (BoxingPain @ May 14 2009, 02:35 PM) *
Basically what you're saying is if it's Pac's last fight (and it very well may be as he told some journalists yesterday that he plans to retire after a fight in October), Roach wants Mayweather. If not, they'd rather fight all these other fighters first before Mayweather.


Correct.

QUOTE (BoxingPain @ May 14 2009, 02:35 PM) *
I still find that hard to believe because first, you never postpone the opportunity to make the biggest money and second, Roach believes that Pac is in his prime right now and Mayweather is coming off a long layoff and if there was a time to get May, the time is NOW.


Not necessarily. You don't rush into the biggest money fight if you think there's a chance you might lose and jeopardize other big money fights. For example, Oscar didn't rush into his big fight with Trinidad after he beat Chavez...instead, he fought Ike Quartey AND Oba Carr first before fighting Tito. Also, Mike Tyson didn't rush into a fight with Hoylfield when he got out of prison...instead, he fought McNeeley, Buster Mathis Jr., Frank Bruno and Bruce Seldon (and got PAID in the process) before taking on a much more difficult style in Evander Holyfield. In other words, sure, the Mayweather fight is big, but how much bigger is it than a Cotto fight? Are we talking $5 million more? $10 million more? $20 million more? If the Mayweather fight is only worth $20 million, but he can fight Cotto now and still get $15 million (which is likely since Cotto will take the short money while the best he could hope for against Mayweather is a 50/50 split), do you risk taking the more difficult fight for an extra $5 million? In my opinion, if I think my guy matches up better with Cotto because he'll come right at him, I'll pass on the more difficult fight and that extra $5 million to take the $15 million and get the win. The bigger money fight with Mayweather will still be there provided Mayweather doesn't lose to someone. And even Mayweather were to lose to someone, then that solidifies Manny's position as the true best P4P fighter (without even having to face the more difficult counter-punching style of Floyd) and hence, he'll always command the lion's share of any purse...no matter who he fights. If instead he take the $20 million and loses (and look bad doing it), then that other $15 million fight won't be there for him anymore. I mean, let's keep it real...it's not like Pacquiao hasn't been willing to walk away from big money fights before. He almost turned down fights with De La Hoya and Hatton.

QUOTE (BoxingPain @ May 14 2009, 02:35 PM) *
If Pac fights Cotto and he loses, (a very real possibility) he can kiss his big payday with Mayweather goodbye since a loss to Cotto would mean losing one's bargaining power with May's camp as the big draw. The only one who gains the most from Pac-Cotto is Arum who promotes both boxers.


If Pac fights Cotto and loses, then he should be happy he didn't fight Mayweather. LOL. From now on, Pacquiao will always get big paydays provided he keeps winning. As for bargaining power, he's not going to have it against Mayweather regardless. Mayweather is HBO's fighter...period! Like I said, at this point, the only thing he can hope for is a 50/50 split with Mayweather. As long as Mayweather beats Marquez more decisively than Manny beat him, the undefeated fighter is going to be the guy who HBO rolls with. If Mayweather says he doesn't want to split the purse 50/50, the fight ain't happening...period! I do agree that Bob Arum (and HBO) gains the most from a Pac-Cotto fight as that's one less promoter to split the revenue with.

QUOTE (BoxingPain @ May 14 2009, 02:35 PM) *
I think what Roach is doing by saying that they're not waiting for Mayweather is basically posturing to make it appear that they have options other than May. He didn't just say this recently to an ESPN writer, he said this already before right after the Hatton fight. This is just posturing to have an extra chip on the bargaining table. By letting May know they have options, they can say if you don't fight us, we'll fight with Cotto... we don't need you.


It's not just posturing...it's fact. They do have other options other than Mayweather. They could fight Cotto or Mosley and still make the same minimum of $12 million they just made against Hatton. Technically, they don't Mayweather...but on the flip side, Mayweather doesn't need them as he has the exact same options...probably even more since he could take on some guys at 154. I think a lot of people are under the assumption that Mayweather came back to fight Pacquiao and that's simply not the case. Mayweather came back to get paid...period! Whether he's getting paid against Marquez, Cotto, Mosley, Spinks or Pacquiao doesn't really matter to him. The fact that HBO was willing to shell out $15 million for Floyd to fight a guy that Pacquiao already beat twice says a lot. I guarantee you Manny Pacquiao didn't get paid $15 million for his rematch with Marquez. Look, Pacquiao's a great fighter and I love watching him fight, but the fact of the matter is that Mayweather is undefeated and everyone wants to be the first guy to beat him. Like you said in your first post, it was Roach who issued the challenge to Mayweather to come out of retirement...not the other way around. He's definitely not the most exciting fighter, but everyone wants to fight Floyd, including Manny, so that makes him the bigger fish to fry.

Oh...and for the record...I understand Roach was saying that they weren't going to wait on Floyd the day of and the day after the fight, but he also just said it last week on Brian Kenny's ESPN Radio Show. If I had a membership to ESPN Insider, I'd dig through the archives and provide you with the link, but trust me, he just said it and I'm sure anyone who watched last Friday's ESPN Friday Night Fights can co-sign on that since they plaid excerpts from the conversation on that show.
salvador
QUOTE (thehype @ May 14 2009, 01:33 PM) *
This truly does harkon back to the days of Trinidad's climb through the divisions.


Yeah, I remember thinking at the time that Tito was an idiot who was being grossly mismanaged. I was sure Vargas was going to get him and I actually thought Joppy had a solid chance. But it was a fun ride while it lasted.

I want Pac's ride to last a little longer.
salvador
QUOTE (BoxingPain @ May 14 2009, 01:35 PM) *
If Pac fights Cotto and he loses, (a very real possibility) he can kiss his big payday with Mayweather goodbye since a loss to Cotto would mean losing one's bargaining power with May's camp as the big draw.


It depends on HOW Pac loses to Cotto. If Cotto can't knock him out and Pac keeps it close and even hurts Cotto, Pac's bargaining power won't be tarnished much because he has a style that people LOVE. He's a lot like Tito in that respect. And as long a Pac's a draw, Floyd will want to fight him because it's a fight Floyd can't lose against a guy who can't hurt him.

And if he does manage to beat Cotto, then he'll hold all the cards.
thehype
QUOTE (salvador @ May 14 2009, 03:42 PM) *
It depends on HOW Pac loses to Cotto. If Cotto can't knock him out and Pac keeps it close and even hurts Cotto, Pac's bargaining power won't be tarnished much because he has a style that people LOVE. He's a lot like Tito in that respect. And as long a Pac's a draw, Floyd will want to fight him because it's a fight Floyd can't lose against a guy who can't hurt him.

And if he does manage to beat Cotto, then he'll hold all the cards.


If the fight is close, there will be a rematch...guaranteed.

As for Floyd, I'm telling you...draw or no draw, as long as he's getting a minimum of $15 million, he could care less about who he fights. If they give him $15 million minimum to fight Andre Berto, he'll probably take that fight just to spite Bob Arum.

If Manny does manage to beat Cotto, he still won't hold all the cards because 1) Mayweather is undefeated and 2) HBO prefers to cater to fighters who don't have promoters. Why else do you think Arum had to put on his own PPV for Cotto and Pavlik's last two fights? LOL.

I'm not so sure Cotto will get past Clottey though so it probably won't matter. As long as Mayweather beats Marquez more decisively than Pacquiao did and the PPV does more than 400,000 buys (the amount that Pacquiao-Marquez II did), then Mayweather will still be in the drivers seat...especially since everyone else, including Roach, was calling for him to come out of retirement. You don't beg for a guy to come out of retirement and then tell him he's going to get the short end of the stick. LOL.
Box in Hand
QUOTE (thehype @ May 14 2009, 03:05 PM) *
If the fight is close, there will be a rematch...guaranteed.

As for Floyd, I'm telling you...draw or no draw, as long as he's getting a minimum of $15 million, he could care less about who he fights. If they give him $15 million minimum to fight Andre Berto, he'll probably take that fight just to spite Bob Arum.

If Manny does manage to beat Cotto, he still won't hold all the cards because 1) Mayweather is undefeated and 2) HBO prefers to cater to fighters who don't have promoters. Why else do you think Arum had to put on his own PPV for Cotto and Pavlik's last two fights? LOL.

I'm not so sure Cotto will get past Clottey though so it probably won't matter. As long as Mayweather beats Marquez more decisively than Pacquiao did and the PPV does more than 400,000 buys (the amount that Pacquiao-Marquez II did), then Mayweather will still be in the drivers seat...especially since everyone else, including Roach, was calling for him to come out of retirement. You don't beg for a guy to come out of retirement and then tell him he's going to get the short end of the stick. LOL.



Well put. I'm just curious, why do you think Clottey will beat Cotto?
Big Slim Sweet
I'd rather Pac fight Cotto anyway if it means Mayweather fights Mosley. I understand a PBF-Pac fight would be fun and all and get everybody talking but it's a fight that by itself is less interesting to me than those other two.
salvador
QUOTE (thehype @ May 14 2009, 03:05 PM) *
If the fight is close, there will be a rematch...guaranteed.

As for Floyd, I'm telling you...draw or no draw, as long as he's getting a minimum of $15 million, he could care less about who he fights. If they give him $15 million minimum to fight Andre Berto, he'll probably take that fight just to spite Bob Arum.

If Manny does manage to beat Cotto, he still won't hold all the cards because 1) Mayweather is undefeated and 2) HBO prefers to cater to fighters who don't have promoters. Why else do you think Arum had to put on his own PPV for Cotto and Pavlik's last two fights? LOL.

I'm not so sure Cotto will get past Clottey though so it probably won't matter. As long as Mayweather beats Marquez more decisively than Pacquiao did and the PPV does more than 400,000 buys (the amount that Pacquiao-Marquez II did), then Mayweather will still be in the drivers seat...especially since everyone else, including Roach, was calling for him to come out of retirement. You don't beg for a guy to come out of retirement and then tell him he's going to get the short end of the stick. LOL.


I don't think Floyd is going to make $15MM after his fight with JMM unless he fights Pac, Cotto, or Williams. And even then I'm not totally sure. You know the numbers better than I do, but I would think it would be hard to pay one fighter $15MM unless the PPV does at least 600K PPV, and I don't believe Floyd is that kind of draw without a legit dance partner. We'll see after the JMM fight.

I don't think that being undefeated has anything to do with who holds the cards. How many fights did DLH lose? And Arum had to put Cotto and Pavlik on his own PPV reason for the same reason he always does, because he's able to put his guys against cup cakes and still make a little money that the networks would never give them.

I'm not at all sure that Cotto gets through Clottey either. I'm actually really surprised Arum's making this fight. I also question Cotto's management team here. This is a crazy risk.

As far as Floyd not being in the driver's seat, my point is that Pac has big money/easier fight options out there than Floyd unless Floyd wants to start fighting at 135. There's no reason that Arum needs to jump on anything right away with Floyd. The fight's going to be big today or two years from today.
salvador
QUOTE (Big Slim @ May 14 2009, 04:22 PM) *
I'd rather Pac fight Cotto anyway if it means Mayweather fights Mosley. I understand a PBF-Pac fight would be fun and all and get everybody talking but it's a fight that by itself is less interesting to me than those other two.


I totally agree.
jp
QUOTE (thehype @ May 14 2009, 04:05 PM) *
If the fight is close, there will be a rematch...guaranteed.

As for Floyd, I'm telling you...draw or no draw, as long as he's getting a minimum of $15 million, he could care less about who he fights. If they give him $15 million minimum to fight Andre Berto, he'll probably take that fight just to spite Bob Arum.

If Manny does manage to beat Cotto, he still won't hold all the cards because 1) Mayweather is undefeated and 2) HBO prefers to cater to fighters who don't have promoters. Why else do you think Arum had to put on his own PPV for Cotto and Pavlik's last two fights? LOL.

I'm not so sure Cotto will get past Clottey though so it probably won't matter. As long as Mayweather beats Marquez more decisively than Pacquiao did and the PPV does more than 400,000 buys (the amount that Pacquiao-Marquez II did), then Mayweather will still be in the drivers seat...especially since everyone else, including Roach, was calling for him to come out of retirement. You don't beg for a guy to come out of retirement and then tell him he's going to get the short end of the stick. LOL.


Agreed 100%
torvix2000
According to a lot of posters here, Cotto would "kill" Pacquiao.

SO I WANT PACQUIAO TO FACE COTTO NEXT instead of Mayweather!!!
King Eugene
I'm more interested in Mayweather vs. PWill. I'd love for that winner to fight the winner of Cotto vs. Clottey. I think it does more for the longevity of the sport than Mayweather vs. Pac. Thats just a super fight, nothing on the line but money and P4P status. Some would add legacy as well but I'd say it would only help Pac's legacy and not Mayweathers. After its over with it'll be talked about for quite some time no doubt but I think it serves less purpose for the sport in the sense that divisional rankings wont change.

The welterweight is a deep division with a lot of meaningful fights to be made which should be made. If Clottey beats Cotto then what happens next? Clottey isn't a big draw so there wont be a high demand to fight him unless he crushes Cotto in the early rounds. Shane wouldn't fight him just cause he wont bring him any money. Cotto, PWill, Shane, and Mayweather are the main fighters everyone wants to see. There should be some type of way to pit these guys up together.
Lil-lightsout
QUOTE (Fitz @ May 14 2009, 07:06 PM) *
Agreed. I have found myself agreeing with you quite a bit lately, even if we were wrong with Hatton, the only one I didn't agree with was Tarver, but oh well. Nice post. I rate Pacquaio higher on a p4p list than Mayweather, even after he beats Marquez. I also respect Pacquaio more for trying to achieve more but I agree with you that if Mayweather and Pacquaio fought, Mayweather would pick him apart. I wouldn't be picking Pacquaio to win this one. I don't have anything against the Pacquaio-Mayweather fight, I just wish Mayweather showed more interest in fighting some of the welters and not be interested in the smaller guys moving up like Hatton, Pacquaio and Marquez. But oh well.
Mayweather beats Pacquaio and will become the new p4p #1 unfortunately. He will also stop Marquez and beat him pretty easily.


Yeah...we screwed up with Hatton.lol. The Tarver pick was a prayer, I knew it was a long shot.

There is a ton of knowledgeable people on this board, and I find it interesting reading everybodies opinions. Sometimes it sucks when people argue too much,but oh well(stole that from you). I enjoy your breakdowns and the way you back up your points, unfortunately I am a slow typer and I do not offer as much insight as I would like sometimes.
King Eugene
QUOTE (Fitz @ May 14 2009, 10:27 PM) *
Yep, I love reading most peoples opinions. A lot of knowledgeable of people. It does suck sometimes when there is too much flaming, but arguing I don't mind. It would be pretty boring if everybody agreed on everything.

I find it funny how you refuse to lose a debate. Even when your argument is for a guy you don't even like, you'll back up your opinions from here to hell lol. Google is your best friend.
thehype
QUOTE (Box in Hand @ May 14 2009, 04:10 PM) *
Well put. I'm just curious, why do you think Clottey will beat Cotto?


Because Clottey has a tight defense, a stiff jab and he knows how to box. I just think it's going to be a really tough fight for Cotto...especially given some of the turmoil he's had recently.
Lil-lightsout
QUOTE (Fitz @ May 14 2009, 10:27 PM) *
Yep, I love reading most peoples opinions. A lot of knowledgeable of people. It does suck sometimes when there is too much flaming, but arguing I don't mind. It would be pretty boring if everybody agreed on everything.


True.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE (thehype @ May 14 2009, 09:37 PM) *
Because Clottey has a tight defense, a stiff jab and he knows how to box. I just think it's going to be a really tough fight for Cotto...especially given some of the turmoil he's had recently.

All of this plus he can throw a lot of punches which has caused Cotto problems(Margarito)..
King Eugene
QUOTE (Fitz @ May 14 2009, 10:55 PM) *
Which one did I lose that I refused to lose to?

None, thats my point. You back EVERYTHING!
thehype
QUOTE (salvador @ May 14 2009, 05:30 PM) *
I don't think Floyd is going to make $15MM after his fight with JMM unless he fights Pac, Cotto, or Williams. And even then I'm not totally sure. You know the numbers better than I do, but I would think it would be hard to pay one fighter $15MM unless the PPV does at least 600K PPV, and I don't believe Floyd is that kind of draw without a legit dance partner. We'll see after the JMM fight.


I think Floyd will get $15 million or more for Pacquiao, Cotto, Williams, Mosley, Clottey (but only if he beats Cotto) AND Berto. Don't get me wrong...OF COURSE it would take a legit dance partner...it would take a legit dance partner for ANYONE, including Pacquiao, to get that kind of money. I mean, neither one of those guys are going to that kind of money to fight Jesus Soto Karras. That being said, neither one of those guys would even bother fighting someone who's NOT a legit dance partner. The fact of the matter is that neither one of them is a big draw without a legit dance partner.

QUOTE (salvador @ May 14 2009, 05:30 PM) *
I don't think that being undefeated has anything to do with who holds the cards. How many fights did DLH lose? And Arum had to put Cotto and Pavlik on his own PPV reason for the same reason he always does, because he's able to put his guys against cup cakes and still make a little money that the networks would never give them.


Being undefeated certainly isn't the only important thing when it comes to who holds the cards, but it does matter. The comparison to DLH is irrevelant because DLH was just in his own world when it came to pay-per-views. As far as Manny and Floyd are concerned however, neither one of them is that much bigger of a draw than the other...although I would argue that Floyd probably edges Manny out simply because he did more numbers than Manny in his fights with DLH and Hatton. Still though, I wouldn't necessarily say he's that much bigger of a draw. That being said, when it comes to the negotiating table, whatever Manny has done, Floyd has already done it. Yeah, Manny made Oscar quit, but Floyd already beat him and beat him at 154. Yeah, Manny wrecked Hatton, but Floyd wrecked him first and truth be told, Hatton hasn't looked the same since that fight so Floyd would argue that he ruined him. Just everything Manny has done, Floyd has already done it. If Barrera, Morales or Marquez were anywhere near his weight division when he was still a super featherweight in 2001, there's no doubt he would have fought them. The guy had to move up in weight just to find people to fight him...and even when he did, opponents still weren't that eager. Just every hand that Manny plays at the table, Floyd can play one just as good or better. There's a reason why HBO is willing to pay him $15 million to fight a guy that Manny Pacquiao already beat twice...just like there's a reason why Floyd got nearly $20 million to fight Hatton while Manny only got $12 million. Being undefeated allows Floyd to trump Manny so it definitely is important when it comes to holding the cards. Again, it's not the only thing that matters, but it does matter in boxing. If losses didn't matter, then people wouldn't be calling for Hatton to retire after only losing his second fight.

QUOTE (salvador @ May 14 2009, 05:30 PM) *
I'm not at all sure that Cotto gets through Clottey either. I'm actually really surprised Arum's making this fight. I also question Cotto's management team here. This is a crazy risk.


Arum made the fight to punish Cotto after he blasted Arum for supporting Margarito. If memory serves me correctly, Cotto is coming up on the end of his contract so Arum is putting his ass to the test. If Cotto does plan on leaving him, then Arum is going to make sure he uses him up. Promoters do that kind of crap all the time.

QUOTE (salvador @ May 14 2009, 05:30 PM) *
As far as Floyd not being in the driver's seat, my point is that Pac has big money/easier fight options out there than Floyd unless Floyd wants to start fighting at 135. There's no reason that Arum needs to jump on anything right away with Floyd. The fight's going to be big today or two years from today.


I disagree about Manny having big money/easier fight options. He definitely has big money options, but I don't think he has the easier fight options. I'd say that Cotto and Mosley are his biggest money options, but I think those are more difficult fights for Manny than they are for Floyd. Marquez is certainly an option still, but I also think that's a tough fight for Manny (as evidenced by their first two fights). Really, most of the options that Manny has, Mayweather has too and the fact that he's getting $15 million (and actually, I heard it may even be more depending on the PPV numbers) to fight a guy that Pacquiao already beat tells me that he'll get even more money to fight the same guys that Pacquiao could fight. Whatever Manny would get to fight Mosley or Cotto, Mayweather would get even more so he's definitely in the driver's seat. I agree though...no need for Arum to jump on anything...which is why I don't think this fight will happen any time soon.
torvix2000
QUOTE (3King3 @ May 15 2009, 04:02 AM) *
None, thats my point. You back EVERYTHING!


Nah, don't worry! Fitz has been losing "in the ring", though!
Sugar Q
[quote 'thehype' date='May 14 2009, 11:26 PM'] Being undefeated certainly isn't the only important thing when it comes to who holds the cards, but it does matter. The comparison to DLH is irrevelant because DLH was just in his own world when it came to pay-per-views. As far as Manny and Floyd are concerned however, neither one of them is that much bigger of a draw than the other...although I would argue that Floyd probably edges Manny out simply because he did more numbers than Manny in his fights with DLH and Hatton. Still though, I wouldn't necessarily say he's that much bigger of a draw. That being said, when it comes to the negotiating table, whatever Manny has done, Floyd has already done it. Yeah, Manny made Oscar quit, but Floyd already beat him and beat him at 154. Yeah, Manny wrecked Hatton, but Floyd wrecked him first and truth be told, Hatton hasn't looked the same since that fight so Floyd would argue that he ruined him. Just everything Manny has done, Floyd has already done it. If Barrera, Morales or Marquez were anywhere near his weight division when he was still a super featherweight in 2001, there's no doubt he would have fought them. The guy had to move up in weight just to find people to fight him...and even when he did, opponents still weren't that eager. Just every hand that Manny plays at the table, Floyd can play one just as good or better. There's a reason why HBO is willing to pay him $15 million to fight a guy that Manny Pacquiao already beat twice...just like there's a reason why Floyd got nearly $20 million to fight Hatton while Manny only got $12 million. Being undefeated allows Floyd to trump Manny so it definitely is important when it comes to holding the cards. Again, it's not the only thing that matters, but it does matter in boxing. If losses didn't matter, then people wouldn't be calling for Hatton to retire after only losing his second fight.




I agree Hype. Of course being undefeated matters especially when you've won so many titles in different divisions. Seems people don't wanna give it up because it's Floyd but it is what it is and Floyd's the man. Floyd is not only unbeaten but a proven unbeaten which makes a huge difference. Pacquiao's best chance (which was still a small one) would've been getting Floyd coming off the lay off cause Floyd after a fight or 2 is really not gonna be a good look for Manny.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE (Fitz @ May 14 2009, 09:27 PM) *
Yep, I love reading most peoples opinions. A lot of knowledgeable of people. It does suck sometimes when there is too much flaming, but arguing I don't mind. It would be pretty boring if everybody agreed on everything.

Yeah,I love reading peoples opinions too..Shit,I'm just hear to talk boxing and have you guys talk back to me about it..Arguing is good for the boards,but like you said,flaming is not..Like whoever Jonnysmum was..It's even worse when he had to make up a name and not man up and use their normal name..They obviously have a low knowledge of boxing and used that name to talk shit instead of trying to argue it out with me talking boxing..Whoever it was,you're the pussy,not me..I'm here under my same name as always..Get some balls or keep your mouth shut..We don't need people like you on the boards anyway..No one thought that shit was funny either..Like Stevenski said,you have ZERO class..

Jonnystrainer is funny though..It makes me laugh as well even though I'll rarely reply to any Jonnystrainer messages..
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE (Fitz @ May 14 2009, 11:45 PM) *
Haha, thanks. I try to be logical when I say things and not let emotions get in the way. There have been cases where I even support Mayweather in certain cases even though I dislike him.

If ya try to think logical,logic always will say not to go against Mayweather..hahaha..I've said it before,I've made the mistake of going against him twice because of his attitude and dislike for him..Never again though..He's a master..
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE (Fitz @ May 15 2009, 12:08 AM) *
I have picked Mayweather against every opponent and will pick him against Marquez and Pacquaio. I would also pick him against Cotto and Mosley, I only hate it because he doesn't challenge himself and take fights with Mosley. I just want to see it happen and prove he wins than just say he wins.
To be honest, there isn't anyone below 154 and even 160 that I would pick against Mayweather, the only one that I might would be Williams. It's just too bad that Mayweather won't prove people to be wrong or right, he just constantly proves to take the path of least resistance, when he is capable of so much more and can truly be right up there with the very best, except at this rate all he will be is just very good and not great.

The Punisher is actually the only guy I'd consider picking over him too.
torvix2000
QUOTE (Fitz @ May 15 2009, 06:05 AM) *
Stupid cervix2000.


Hmm... getting too personal, eh?
torvix2000
QUOTE (Fitz @ May 15 2009, 06:22 AM) *
No, it's banter, lol. But you always seem to come back to me like a dog. You love to think that you are stirring me up don't you? Haha.


Nah! You're too much of a machine to get stirred up!
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE (Fitz @ May 15 2009, 12:27 AM) *
So I'm the poster version of Manny Pacquaio? wink.gif

Stevenski would be the poster version of Mike Tyson then..He wants to stomp on your kids testicles just so that you can feel his pain!!hahahaha..So much hate in him..haha..He loves his food though(like Tyson and his pigeons)..

I'd be interested in making a thread to see who everyone would compare them to as a poster to a fighter..Good shit..Someone should make it if they think it's a good idea..
kingknockout
QUOTE (JonnyBlaze @ May 15 2009, 12:49 AM) *
If ya try to think logical,logic always will say not to go against Mayweather..hahaha..I've said it before,I've made the mistake of going against him twice because of his attitude and dislike for him..Never again though..He's a master..



LMFAO....im glad you've come to the other side friends.gif




lol people in here are talking about the money aspect of things......while im still laughing at the fact that ol freddie is nervouse about PACMAN fighting Mayweather, lol.....aww man....the hate mayweather get's.......it can't be matched, just like the point outputs he rack up every fight.


AussieLad
Mosely is the only fight i want to see mayweather take. Shane is a bit long in the tooth for my liking, but back when he was at 135 i would have taken him over mayweather any day of the week.
Fadetwist
QUOTE (thehype @ May 14 2009, 09:51 AM) *
Pacfanatics will find this hard to believe, but you guys should already know that I wouldn't lie to you...

Some inside sources have told me that apparently Freddie Roach doesn't like the idea of Manny fighting Mayweather. He's not so confident that Manny would have as much success against a style like Floyd's so he prefers to push that fight back as much as possible and would rather fight guys like Cotto or Mosley, who are more willing to come right at PacMan. That's part of the reason why he says Mayweather vs. Marquez will be a boring fight...he's basically setting up an excuse to delay the fight.

I can't say that I blame him though. After working with a great counter-puncher like James Toney for so many years, he's fully aware of the difficulties in facing that style. While I'm sure he's confident of Manny, I also think he knows that a fight with Cotto or Mosley might be easier stylistically for his fighter, so he'd rather face them first....hence the reason why they're not going to wait on Mayweather.

Anyway, not that it matters much though since I highly doubt the two sides would come to agreement on the split anyway...just thought it was interesting. That's not to say that the fight won't happen though as HBO could easily throw a ton of money at them that they just couldn't refuse. But still...Freddie Roach is a smart man. Despite what he may say to the rest of the world, he does recognize the task at hand if Manny were to indeed face Mayweather.

Speaking of Mayweather, sources also tell me that Al Haymon played a major role in Floyd's decision to return. Apparently, a lot of the money-making schemes that Floyd thought he would get (movie roles, book deals, video games, concert promotions) just didn't pan out. He was under the impression that he'd become some big concert promoter in the music industry. He was hoping Al Haymon, a major concert promoter in his own right, would bring him into the business by co-promoting events with him. Haymon essentially told Floyd that he didn't need to waste his time co-promoting with him because Floyd brought nothing to the table...basically, he reminded him that he's just a fighter and if he ain't fighting, quite frankly, he didn't have any use for him. Ouch! Damn Al! Help a brotha out!

Speaking of brothas, apparently, Zab Judah vs. Randall Bailey isn't even close to happening. Judah's is trying to pull some strings in hopes of getting a fight with Bailey sanctioned for the title. The problem is that Judah is currently ranked #7 by the IBF. Bailey's no fool. He knows he's sitting in the #1 position and he's not going to jeopardize his chance of getting a crack at the title. I guess I should probably turn that into a blurb and put it out there on the front page. LOL.

We all know what this is leading down to. Manny or Wayweather wins, Thrilla in Manila reminiscent of the Ali and Frasier fight. This will lead into a third fight to determine who is the P4p best fighter in the world. The promoters take the cash laughing all the way to the bank.
You know the usual stuff in boxing.
buford54
Great scoop, Hype!
I love to hear about arrogant SOB's getting brought back to reality.
I may actually love Al Haymon now.
It's funny, when Floyd "retired," nobody outside of boxing gave 2 cents about him or his whereabouts.
Now that he's back, he's in AT&T commercials and on ESPN again.

Floyd should win both fights (JMM and Pac), but I'd love to see him lose. That would be awesome. I've been bitter every since he got that gift over Castillo in their first fight. Up to that point he was criticizing the hell out of Bob Arum. Immediately after he got that gift, he started talking about Bob being the greatest promoter in the world.
D-MARV
QUOTE (Fitz @ May 15 2009, 01:08 AM) *
I have picked Mayweather against every opponent and will pick him against Marquez and Pacquaio. I would also pick him against Cotto and Mosley, I only hate it because he doesn't challenge himself and take fights with Mosley and other welter weights. I just want to see fights happen and prove he wins than him and his fans just say he wins. I'm sure people like Sugar Q and damarvelous probably think if he were to beat Mosley or Cotto, it would be proving me wrong. It actually won't because I think Mayweather is that good and it's why I will pick him, it's just a shame that he doesn't test himself to the fullest.
To be honest, there isn't anyone below 154 and even 160 that I would pick against Mayweather, the only one that I might would be Williams. It's just too bad that Mayweather won't prove people to be wrong or right, he just constantly proves to take the path of least resistance, when he is capable of so much more and can truly be right up there with the very best, except at this rate all he will be is just very good and not great.

I actually agree with you. Mayweather is NOT challenging himself like he could be. Fitz, you have to understand that Im not a Floyd hugger. You compare me to Sugar Q but if you go back and look at the threads you will see that I have not agreed with "everything" he has been saying. The only thing that I have argued about Floyd is that the Marquez fight isn't a bad fight and that Floyd IS a draw whether people like it or not. I never claimed he was the best. Personally, I think Paul Williams beats Floyd and Pacquiao gives him a tough fight. Shit, I think Juan will make Floyd work. Floyd is a great fighter but he can be so much better if he just challenged himself a bit more.
Douchebag
LMAO at no body wanting to align themselves with SugarQ.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (JonnyBlaze @ May 15 2009, 12:10 AM) *
The Punisher is actually the only guy I'd consider picking over him too.


i've been saying for a couple of years now that paul williams vs. floyd mayweather jr. is the best fight that can be made in boxing period... their styles will match up very very well... i exspect it to be leonard hearns 1 all over again if it ever happens...
D-MARV
QUOTE (The Conscience @ May 15 2009, 09:15 AM) *
LMAO at no body wanting to align themselves with SugarQ.

SugarQ says some things that are true but he can go a little too far.
Douchebag
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ May 15 2009, 09:22 AM) *
i've been saying for a couple of years now that paul williams vs. floyd mayweather jr. is the best fight that can be made in boxing period... their styles will match up very very well... i exspect it to be leonard hearns 1 all over again if it ever happens...


I really don't think so............After what I saw Quintana do to him with half a tank. May handles him easy. People may not want to fight him but the blueprint is out on how to beat him and anybody with with a good boxing brain and stamina can beat PWill at welter.
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