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Sugar Q
Did Kenny press Roach like he should have? What do you guys think?
KYLE THEEE SPINKS FAN
Do you have a link to a video??
thehype
QUOTE (Sugar Q @ May 22 2009, 10:02 PM) *
Did Kenny press Roach like he should have? What do you guys think?



FUUUUUUUUCK NO! HE DIDN'T PRESS FREDDIE AT ALL!!

That's exactly why Kenny irritates the shit out of me. If that were Floyd...well...I don't have to tell you how he would act with Floyd in the studio...but he didn't press Roach on anything. For example...

Roach said, "Well, if Pacquiao wants the fight, Bob's gonna do what Pacquiao wants because he's our promoter and if the fighter wants to fight the fight, he'll definitely get us that fight I feel."

It would have been fucking nice if Kenny would have said, "Well Freddie, does Manny want the fight? Does Manny want to fight Floyd next and if so, don't you think you should probably wait until the outcome of his fight with Marquez?"

Roach said, "But the thing is we're not going to wait for this guy though. If something else comes up for us; he chose to fight somebody else."

It would have been fucking nice if Kenny would have said, "Well Freddie, why not wait for Floyd? The guy is fighting in July. Is there a reason why you have to rush to make a decision on Manny's next opponent? If Mayweather is the guy you want to fight next, don't you think it makes sense to wait for him?"

Roach said, "If he wants to make the kind of money he's talking about, he has to fight Pacquiao because Pacquiao's the draw right now, not Floyd Mayweather."

It would have been fucking nice if Kenny would have said, "Well Freddie, can't the same be said about Manny. If Pacquiao wants to make the type of money he's talking about, doesn't he have to fight Floyd? After all, it's been reported that Mayweather is getting $15 million to face Marquez. That's more than Manny made against Hatton and a whole lot more than Manny made last year in his fight with Marquez...a fight that I admittedly thought Marquez won. Don't you think that some of the options that are available to Manny, like Mosley, are also available to Mayweather?"

Roach said, "The hardest thing with Mayweather, he wants the 60/40 he's talking about, you know. Pacquiao's the number one guy. 60/40 our way will work. 60/40 his way, it's not happening."

It would have been fucking nice if Kenny would have said, "Come on Freddie. Don't you think a 60/40 split is a bit unreasonable on both sides? We're talking about the two best fighters in the sport. Don't you think the best thing to do would be an even 50/50 split?"

Roach said, "I just would like to see Shane come down a little bit in weight. Instead of fighting at 47, you know, we could fight at a catchweight somewhere."

It would have been fucking nice if Kenny would have said, "Freddie, why not Shane at 147? Shane's a smaller guy...certainly smaller than De La Hoya, who had been fighting at 154. Why were you willing to put Manny in with De La Hoya at 147, but you prefer for Shane to come down in weight?"

Kenny soooooo wants to be Floyd's Howard Cosell and that crap irritates the shit out of me. When it comes to Floyd, Kenny presses him on everything...but when other people say crazy shit, he just ignores it and keeps it moving to the next topic. It takes fucking two to tango and he basically wants to lay all the blame on Floyd for a Pacquiao fight not happening when he knows damn well that Manny Pacquiao will be just as stubbon at the negotiating table. He's full of shit. Don't get me wrong...I think he SHOULD press Floyd on his stupid shit, but I'm just saying, press EVERYONE and call it fair right down the line instead of constantly pointing the finger at Floyd.

And honestly, Roach is kind of full of crap too...he's knows damn well that Cotto is the next target. All Cotto has to do is win in June and that's Manny's next...period! That's the only reason why Roach is talking all this smack..."Fraud Mayweather"..."we're not going to wait for this guy"..."they might put you to sleep"...WTF Freddie? Why the hell are you talking all this smack lately? He knows Manny is fighting Cotto next...he's just poppin' off because he knows full well that the Mayweather fight ain't happening. All this talking is getting a little irritating. If you're a fighter, shut up and fight...if you're a trainer, shut up and train...if your'e a promoter, shut up and just make the next fight already! Damn!

Man, I am soooooooooooo pulling for Clottey right now because it'll be EXTREMELY interesting to see who Manny does fight if Cotto loses. Shit, knowing Arum, they'll probably still do a Pacquiao-Cotto fight even if he does lose. LOL.
Method
Damn, Hype. YOu remembered all that?

It is the Paq / Mosley stuff that has e the most confused/irritated. I honestly dont think there is a snowball's chance in hell that Shane can get below 147, and, I have to think that Roach knows that, so he should stop w the wishful thinking and the talk of catchweight. I mean, if Roach's end game is to get a Mosley at 143-44 that was as dead as DLH at 147, then that is a fight I do NOT want to see. I think a fight between Mosley/Paq at 147 is a great fight. At 143? We run the risk of months of promotion, buildup and a 24/7 hype job, only to get a fight between a comfortable Paq and a dead guy.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (thehype @ May 23 2009, 05:11 AM) *
Shit, knowing Arum, they'll probably still do a Pacquiao-Cotto fight even if he does lose. LOL.


Well that is the move him & Floyd pulled with Judah.
JD
QUOTE (Method @ May 23 2009, 08:17 AM) *
Damn, Hype. YOu remembered all that?

It is the Paq / Mosley stuff that has e the most confused/irritated. I honestly dont think there is a snowball's chance in hell that Shane can get below 147, and, I have to think that Roach knows that, so he should stop w the wishful thinking and the talk of catchweight. I mean, if Roach's end game is to get a Mosley at 143-44 that was as dead as DLH at 147, then that is a fight I do NOT want to see. I think a fight between Mosley/Paq at 147 is a great fight. At 143? We run the risk of months of promotion, buildup and a 24/7 hype job, only to get a fight between a comfortable Paq and a dead guy.


The way I see it is that Pacquiao went all the way up to 147 just because it was Oscar, anyone else, and he won't do it. Not much unlike Floyd going all the way up to 154 just because it was Oscar, again, anyone else and he won't do it.

At the end of the day, Pacquiao is no welter and Floyd is no junior middle. I don't expect to see Pacquiao - Mosley at 147 just like I don't expect to see Mayweather - Williams at 154.

But at the end of the day, I agree with you...Pacquiao - Mosley at 143 or 144 is not really going to be a good look for Sugar Shane. Mosley hasn't weighed in at less than 146 in 10 years.
gbh32001

This is boxing!Money is the king...not even Floyd or Manny. Roach is a cunning trainer, wise man indeed. He know how to protect his boxer. The good thing about Roach is he is a fair guy in terms of money.
Sugar Q
QUOTE (thehype @ May 23 2009, 01:11 AM) *
FUUUUUUUUCK NO! HE DIDN'T PRESS FREDDIE AT ALL!!

That's exactly why Kenny irritates the shit out of me. If that were Floyd...well...I don't have to tell you how he would act with Floyd in the studio...but he didn't press Roach on anything. For example...

Roach said, "Well, if Pacquiao wants the fight, Bob's gonna do what Pacquiao wants because he's our promoter and if the fighter wants to fight the fight, he'll definitely get us that fight I feel."

It would have been fucking nice if Kenny would have said, "Well Freddie, does Manny want the fight? Does Manny want to fight Floyd next and if so, don't you think you should probably wait until the outcome of his fight with Marquez?"

Roach said, "But the thing is we're not going to wait for this guy though. If something else comes up for us; he chose to fight somebody else."

It would have been fucking nice if Kenny would have said, "Well Freddie, why not wait for Floyd? The guy is fighting in July. Is there a reason why you have to rush to make a decision on Manny's next opponent? If Mayweather is the guy you want to fight next, don't you think it makes sense to wait for him?"

Roach said, "If he wants to make the kind of money he's talking about, he has to fight Pacquiao because Pacquiao's the draw right now, not Floyd Mayweather."

It would have been fucking nice if Kenny would have said, "Well Freddie, can't the same be said about Manny. If Pacquiao wants to make the type of money he's talking about, doesn't he have to fight Floyd? After all, it's been reported that Mayweather is getting $15 million to face Marquez. That's more than Manny made against Hatton and a whole lot more than Manny made last year in his fight with Marquez...a fight that I admittedly thought Marquez won. Don't you think that some of the options that are available to Manny, like Mosley, are also available to Mayweather?"

Roach said, "The hardest thing with Mayweather, he wants the 60/40 he's talking about, you know. Pacquiao's the number one guy. 60/40 our way will work. 60/40 his way, it's not happening."

It would have been fucking nice if Kenny would have said, "Come on Freddie. Don't you think a 60/40 split is a bit unreasonable on both sides? We're talking about the two best fighters in the sport. Don't you think the best thing to do would be an even 50/50 split?"

Roach said, "I just would like to see Shane come down a little bit in weight. Instead of fighting at 47, you know, we could fight at a catchweight somewhere."

It would have been fucking nice if Kenny would have said, "Freddie, why not Shane at 147? Shane's a smaller guy...certainly smaller than De La Hoya, who had been fighting at 154. Why were you willing to put Manny in with De La Hoya at 147, but you prefer for Shane to come down in weight?"

Kenny soooooo wants to be Floyd's Howard Cosell and that crap irritates the shit out of me. When it comes to Floyd, Kenny presses him on everything...but when other people say crazy shit, he just ignores it and keeps it moving to the next topic. It takes fucking two to tango and he basically wants to lay all the blame on Floyd for a Pacquiao fight not happening when he knows damn well that Manny Pacquiao will be just as stubbon at the negotiating table. He's full of shit. Don't get me wrong...I think he SHOULD press Floyd on his stupid shit, but I'm just saying, press EVERYONE and call it fair right down the line instead of constantly pointing the finger at Floyd.

And honestly, Roach is kind of full of crap too...he's knows damn well that Cotto is the next target. All Cotto has to do is win in June and that's Manny's next...period! That's the only reason why Roach is talking all this smack..."Fraud Mayweather"..."we're not going to wait for this guy"..."they might put you to sleep"...WTF Freddie? Why the hell are you talking all this smack lately? He knows Manny is fighting Cotto next...he's just poppin' off because he knows full well that the Mayweather fight ain't happening. All this talking is getting a little irritating. If you're a fighter, shut up and fight...if you're a trainer, shut up and train...if your'e a promoter, shut up and just make the next fight already! Damn!

Man, I am soooooooooooo pulling for Clottey right now because it'll be EXTREMELY interesting to see who Manny does fight if Cotto loses. Shit, knowing Arum, they'll probably still do a Pacquiao-Cotto fight even if he does lose. LOL.




My point exactly Hype! I couldn't have said it better. They are full of so much shit it's unbelievable. The sad thing is the haters who say Floyd is doing the ducking and cherry picking.
Mean Mister Mustard
QUOTE (Sugar Q @ May 23 2009, 10:24 AM) *
My point exactly Hype! I couldn't have said it better. They are full of so much shit it's unbelievable. The sad thing is the haters who say Floyd is doing the ducking and cherry picking.


Yeah, you really couldn't.

Those are some fair points and I think at least Kenny could have questioned Pacquiao on why he wants to make Mosley come down in weight. Either fight him at 147 or not at all.

But then again, Pacquiao is not a welterweight and Mosley with his past steroid abuse and weightlifting is a really strong one. Like JD said, Pacquiao only went up to 147 to fight DLH. It was a one time thing kinda like RJ at heavyweight. The only fight I can see him going up to 147 is Mayweather. I still can't believe he wants to fight Cotto, I think Cotto blasts him.

Mayweather fans are just a little to worried about Pacquiao, he's the 140 pound champion of the world. He has other buisness there he can take care of. Worry more about Mayweather and his cherry picking ways.
Sugar Q
QUOTE (Mean Mister Mustard @ May 23 2009, 12:10 PM) *
Yeah, you really couldn't.

Those are some fair points and I think at least Kenny could have questioned Pacquiao on why he wants to make Mosley come down in weight. Either fight him at 147 or not at all.

But then again, Pacquiao is not a welterweight and Mosley with his past steroid abuse and weightlifting is a really strong one. Like JD said, Pacquiao only went up to 147 to fight DLH. It was a one time thing kinda like RJ at heavyweight. The only fight I can see him going up to 147 is Mayweather. I still can't believe he wants to fight Cotto, I think Cotto blasts him.

Mayweather fans are just a little to worried about Pacquiao, he's the 140 pound champion of the world. He has other buisness there he can take care of. Worry more about Mayweather and his cherry picking ways.


Well I created the post but it's always better to hear someone further elaborate on what I was thinking while I was watching FNF so mad props to my dude Hype. I think the days of using the cherry picking description with PBF are numbered because I'm pretty sure he's gonna fight Shane and though I got love for Shane if Cotto and Collazo gave him problems PBF is gonna be a nightmare.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (thehype @ May 23 2009, 12:11 AM) *
FUUUUUUUUCK NO! HE DIDN'T PRESS FREDDIE AT ALL!!

That's exactly why Kenny irritates the shit out of me. If that were Floyd...well...I don't have to tell you how he would act with Floyd in the studio...but he didn't press Roach on anything. For example...

Roach said, "Well, if Pacquiao wants the fight, Bob's gonna do what Pacquiao wants because he's our promoter and if the fighter wants to fight the fight, he'll definitely get us that fight I feel."

It would have been fucking nice if Kenny would have said, "Well Freddie, does Manny want the fight? Does Manny want to fight Floyd next and if so, don't you think you should probably wait until the outcome of his fight with Marquez?"

Roach said, "But the thing is we're not going to wait for this guy though. If something else comes up for us; he chose to fight somebody else."

It would have been fucking nice if Kenny would have said, "Well Freddie, why not wait for Floyd? The guy is fighting in July. Is there a reason why you have to rush to make a decision on Manny's next opponent? If Mayweather is the guy you want to fight next, don't you think it makes sense to wait for him?"

Roach said, "If he wants to make the kind of money he's talking about, he has to fight Pacquiao because Pacquiao's the draw right now, not Floyd Mayweather."

It would have been fucking nice if Kenny would have said, "Well Freddie, can't the same be said about Manny. If Pacquiao wants to make the type of money he's talking about, doesn't he have to fight Floyd? After all, it's been reported that Mayweather is getting $15 million to face Marquez. That's more than Manny made against Hatton and a whole lot more than Manny made last year in his fight with Marquez...a fight that I admittedly thought Marquez won. Don't you think that some of the options that are available to Manny, like Mosley, are also available to Mayweather?"

Roach said, "The hardest thing with Mayweather, he wants the 60/40 he's talking about, you know. Pacquiao's the number one guy. 60/40 our way will work. 60/40 his way, it's not happening."

It would have been fucking nice if Kenny would have said, "Come on Freddie. Don't you think a 60/40 split is a bit unreasonable on both sides? We're talking about the two best fighters in the sport. Don't you think the best thing to do would be an even 50/50 split?"

Roach said, "I just would like to see Shane come down a little bit in weight. Instead of fighting at 47, you know, we could fight at a catchweight somewhere."

It would have been fucking nice if Kenny would have said, "Freddie, why not Shane at 147? Shane's a smaller guy...certainly smaller than De La Hoya, who had been fighting at 154. Why were you willing to put Manny in with De La Hoya at 147, but you prefer for Shane to come down in weight?"

Kenny soooooo wants to be Floyd's Howard Cosell and that crap irritates the shit out of me. When it comes to Floyd, Kenny presses him on everything...but when other people say crazy shit, he just ignores it and keeps it moving to the next topic. It takes fucking two to tango and he basically wants to lay all the blame on Floyd for a Pacquiao fight not happening when he knows damn well that Manny Pacquiao will be just as stubbon at the negotiating table. He's full of shit. Don't get me wrong...I think he SHOULD press Floyd on his stupid shit, but I'm just saying, press EVERYONE and call it fair right down the line instead of constantly pointing the finger at Floyd.

And honestly, Roach is kind of full of crap too...he's knows damn well that Cotto is the next target. All Cotto has to do is win in June and that's Manny's next...period! That's the only reason why Roach is talking all this smack..."Fraud Mayweather"..."we're not going to wait for this guy"..."they might put you to sleep"...WTF Freddie? Why the hell are you talking all this smack lately? He knows Manny is fighting Cotto next...he's just poppin' off because he knows full well that the Mayweather fight ain't happening. All this talking is getting a little irritating. If you're a fighter, shut up and fight...if you're a trainer, shut up and train...if your'e a promoter, shut up and just make the next fight already! Damn!

Man, I am soooooooooooo pulling for Clottey right now because it'll be EXTREMELY interesting to see who Manny does fight if Cotto loses. Shit, knowing Arum, they'll probably still do a Pacquiao-Cotto fight even if he does lose. LOL.


excellent points hype all the way down...
Mean Mister Mustard
QUOTE (Sugar Q @ May 23 2009, 12:42 PM) *
Well I created the post but it's always better to hear someone further elaborate on what I was thinking while I was watching FNF. I think the days of using the cherry picking description with PBF are numbered because I'm pretty sure he's gonna fight Shane and though I got love for Shane if Cotto and Collazo gave him problems PBF is gonna be a nightmare.


I agree about PBF beating Mayweather. It would be a heck of a fight though but I'm with 3King in that I would rather see Mayweather-Williams.
Sugar Q
QUOTE (Mean Mister Mustard @ May 23 2009, 12:52 PM) *
I agree about PBF beating Mayweather. It would be a heck of a fight though but I'm with 3King in that I would rather see Mayweather-Williams.


If Williams ends up campaigning at 154 I think the fight can happen.
Mean Mister Mustard
QUOTE (Sugar Q @ May 23 2009, 12:58 PM) *
If Williams ends up campaigning at 154 I think the fight can happen.


It would be a great fight but I'm pretty sure Mayweather will not fight him anytime soon citing the fact that Williams is not a draw.

Or maybe he would be if he fought in the right location. I cannot believe they put the Wirght fight in Vegas. Did they think tons of fans were going to make the trip to see that one? Boxing fans do exist and they will show up if good fights are made near them. Promoters like to cite the "TV killed boxing live attendance" card but that's BS. Look at How many fans showed up to see JMM-Diaz, Hopkins-Pavlik, Margarito-Mosley etc.

salvador
QUOTE (Sugar Q @ May 23 2009, 11:58 AM) *
If Williams ends up campaigning at 154 I think the fight can happen.


Come on, I know Floyd's your man, but you can't possibly believe Floyd's going to fight Williams do you? Seriously, there's more chance of Floyd fighting Darchynian than Floyd fighting Williams.
Snoop
As long as Paul Williams keeps whooping ass like he did Winky and fighters continue to duck the man, Floyd will always have his lame "Who's Paul Williams? The guy with one loss and is not a draw?" excuse to fall back on.
thehype
QUOTE (Method @ May 23 2009, 08:17 AM) *
Damn, Hype. YOu remembered all that?

It is the Paq / Mosley stuff that has e the most confused/irritated. I honestly dont think there is a snowball's chance in hell that Shane can get below 147, and, I have to think that Roach knows that, so he should stop w the wishful thinking and the talk of catchweight. I mean, if Roach's end game is to get a Mosley at 143-44 that was as dead as DLH at 147, then that is a fight I do NOT want to see. I think a fight between Mosley/Paq at 147 is a great fight. At 143? We run the risk of months of promotion, buildup and a 24/7 hype job, only to get a fight between a comfortable Paq and a dead guy.


LOL. I did a transcript...the quotes were readily available to me. LOL.

I agree though...I don't want to see any fights with dead men walking. If you can't fight the guy you're calling out at his own weight, then don't fight him at focus on guys at your own weight...like Nate Campbell!
thehype
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ May 23 2009, 08:41 AM) *
Well that is the move him & Floyd pulled with Judah.


That's kind of my point...win or lose, Cotto will probably be Manny's next target and Roach already knows that.

laugh.gif
thehype
QUOTE (JD @ May 23 2009, 09:16 AM) *
The way I see it is that Pacquiao went all the way up to 147 just because it was Oscar, anyone else, and he won't do it. Not much unlike Floyd going all the way up to 154 just because it was Oscar, again, anyone else and he won't do it.


The underlying reason why they both did it was for the big payday. The truth of the matter is that neither one of them is going to be a huge draw with another legitimate dance partner. Manny Pacquiao is not going to get $10 million to fight Timothy Bradley or Nate Campbell...the only way he's going to get that kind of money is if he fights a guy like Shane Mosley so if he was willing to move up to 147 to fight De La Hoya for the big payday, then he should be willing to move up to 147 to fight Shane Mosley for the big payday as well. I think what Freddie is REALLY saying is that he knows damn well that Shane Mosley would be too much of a beast for Manny at 147 so he prefers for him to kill himself making weight in hopes of gaining an advantage. That's whack! Floyd didn't make Oscar suck down to 154 to get the fight...and then he didn't almost kill the fight over the purse split. Whack!

QUOTE (JD @ May 23 2009, 09:16 AM) *
At the end of the day, Pacquiao is no welter and Floyd is no junior middle. I don't expect to see Pacquiao - Mosley at 147 just like I don't expect to see Mayweather - Williams at 154.


The funny thing is that not too long ago, when Floyd first moved up to welterweight, everyone said that Floyd was not a true welterweight and the bigger guys like Margarito would be too much for him to handle. They say the same thing about Zab Judah...that's he's not really a true welterweight. I mean, is Floyd really a true welterweight? If so, when exactly did he really become a true welterweight? I'm just saying, if you're calling a guy out, fight him at his own weight to prove you're the best. If you're David Haye, you can't call it Wladimir Klitschko and expect him to meet you at a catchweight. If Manny is all that and a bag of chips, then fight these guys at their own weight...otherwise, STFU and take care of the guys at your own weight.

QUOTE (JD @ May 23 2009, 09:16 AM) *
But at the end of the day, I agree with you...Pacquiao - Mosley at 143 or 144 is not really going to be a good look for Sugar Shane. Mosley hasn't weighed in at less than 146 in 10 years.


It's definitely not a good look for Shane...and Freddie knows that shit. Whack.
thehype
QUOTE (Sugar Q @ May 23 2009, 11:24 AM) *
My point exactly Hype! I couldn't have said it better. They are full of so much shit it's unbelievable. The sad thing is the haters who say Floyd is doing the ducking and cherry picking.


Well, it's really not so much about Floyd, but more about the fact that Kenny goes out of his way to attack Floyd, but when it comes to other guests who give him the same opportunity to press them, the muddasucka won't say a word. That's just weak. If people are going to praise Kenny for grilling Mayweather, they should be equally disappointed that he doesn't grill the other side of the equation. Like I said, it takes two to tango if a fight between Mayweather and Pacquiao doesn't happen, I highly doubt all the blame should rest with Floyd...unless, of course, he just simply refuses to fight him. Ultimately, it's going to come down to the money and anything other than a 50/50 split probably means the fight won't happen. That being said, I don't think Floyd should necessarily be the one to take all the blame as Pacquiao is the one with the history of making negotiations EXTREMELY difficult. Just ask Richard Schaefer.
thehype
QUOTE (Mean Mister Mustard @ May 23 2009, 12:10 PM) *
The only fight I can see him going up to 147 is Mayweather. I still can't believe he wants to fight Cotto, I think Cotto blasts him.

Mayweather fans are just a little to worried about Pacquiao, he's the 140 pound champion of the world. He has other buisness there he can take care of. Worry more about Mayweather and his cherry picking ways.


If he wants to keep making $10 million or more fights, then he needs guys like Mayweather AND Mosley. He's not going to make $10-$15 million to fight Timothy Bradley, Nate Campbell or Juan Urango. If he wants the mega-fights, then he needs to be willing to move up and challenge them. Mayweather and Mosley could say, "hey, fuck it, why kill ourselves sucking down in weight when we could just fight each other." In my opinion, the only real mega-fight option Manny Pacquiao has right now is Miguel Cotto...and that's only because they both have the same promoter. Other than that, who else is there? Mosley and Mayweather have other options where they could probably still get a decent payday in the millions...Paul Williams, Andre Berto, Cory Spinks, Vernon Forrest, Zab Judah (oh yes, Zab is just one spectacular win away from being back in the mix with either one of those guys)...whereas Manny Pacquiao, I just don't think he'd make the same type of money fighting guys like Bradley, Valero or Khan. Guys like Williams, Berto, Spinks, Forrest and Judah just have far more exposure and thus give Mosley and Mayweather more options. In my opinion, Pacquiao needs those guys a lot more than they need him. In fact, if Mayweather beats the crap out of Juan Manuel Marquez...does him like he did Gatti...then I think it would be EXTREMELY difficult to argue that he's not the best P4P fighter in the world.
BigG
QUOTE (snoopnick @ May 23 2009, 07:19 PM) *
As long as Paul Williams keeps whooping ass like he did Winky and fighters continue to duck the man, Floyd will always have his lame "Who's Paul Williams? The guy with one loss and is not a draw?" excuse to fall back on.


I know Floyd will possibly "duck" him but let's be real, no one is lining up to fight Paul Williams at 147 anyway. The man clearly has a huge size advantage over Floyd and all of these other smallish Welterweights and is campaigning at 160 and looks very comfortable at that weight.

I have no problem with Floyd coming back to fight guys around HIS size...Marquez, then Cotto, Pacquiao, Mosley.
Method
QUOTE
I mean, is Floyd really a true welterweight? If so, when exactly did he really become a true welterweight? I'm just saying, if you're calling a guy out, fight him at his own weight to prove you're the best. If you're David Haye, you can't call it Wladimir Klitschko and expect him to meet you at a catchweight. If Manny is all that and a bag of chips, then fight these guys at their own weight...otherwise, STFU and take care of the guys at your own weight.


Agreed. And to answer your question, yes I believe Floyd really is a true welterweight, and maybe would even go as far to say a comfortable jr. middle. If the guy fills out well and handles the weight gain, carries all his athleticism and power, looks good, then that is Ill I need to know ot call the guy legit at the weight.
JD
QUOTE (thehype @ May 23 2009, 02:44 PM) *
The funny thing is that not too long ago, when Floyd first moved up to welterweight, everyone said that Floyd was not a true welterweight and the bigger guys like Margarito would be too much for him to handle. They say the same thing about Zab Judah...that's he's not really a true welterweight. I mean, is Floyd really a true welterweight? If so, when exactly did he really become a true welterweight? I'm just saying, if you're calling a guy out, fight him at his own weight to prove you're the best. If you're David Haye, you can't call it Wladimir Klitschko and expect him to meet you at a catchweight. If Manny is all that and a bag of chips, then fight these guys at their own weight...otherwise, STFU and take care of the guys at your own weight.

It's definitely not a good look for Shane...and Freddie knows that shit. Whack.


I don't think Floyd is a big welter at all...but with Williams out of the division for all intents and purposes, and Margarito on the shelf for a year, it is a lot easier to just call him a welter like anyone else there - and in fairness, that is where he has campaigned. I think FLoyd is definitely much more of a welter than Pacquiao, and probably as much, or more, of a junior middle than Pacquiao is a welter. So what does that all mean? Who the hell knows. Hopefully we get Pacquiao Mayweather at a mutually agreed upon weight...whether it's 145 or 144...or maybe something cool that we don't even know about.
Sugar Q
QUOTE (Method @ May 23 2009, 04:13 PM) *
Agreed. And to answer your question, yes I believe Floyd really is a true welterweight, and maybe would even go as far to say a comfortable jr. middle. If the guy fills out well and handles the weight gain, carries all his athleticism and power, looks good, then that is Ill I need to know ot call the guy legit at the weight.



If Floyd is fighting Marquez @ 144 he's definitely not a true Jr-Middle-wt that's crazy. He never really fought at that weight. He was a bit sluggish fighting DelaHoya. 144-146 is Floyd's comfort zone right now. Don't know if you wanna call that a full fledge welter but it is at welter-wt.
Sugar Q
QUOTE (thehype @ May 23 2009, 03:02 PM) *
If he wants to keep making $10 million or more fights, then he needs guys like Mayweather AND Mosley. He's not going to make $10-$15 million to fight Timothy Bradley, Nate Campbell or Juan Urango. If he wants the mega-fights, then he needs to be willing to move up and challenge them. Mayweather and Mosley could say, "hey, fuck it, why kill ourselves sucking down in weight when we could just fight each other." In my opinion, the only real mega-fight option Manny Pacquiao has right now is Miguel Cotto...and that's only because they both have the same promoter. Other than that, who else is there? Mosley and Mayweather have other options where they could probably still get a decent payday in the millions...Paul Williams, Andre Berto, Cory Spinks, Vernon Forrest, Zab Judah (oh yes, Zab is just one spectacular win away from being back in the mix with either one of those guys)...whereas Manny Pacquiao, I just don't think he'd make the same type of money fighting guys like Bradley, Valero or Khan. Guys like Williams, Berto, Spinks, Forrest and Judah just have far more exposure and thus give Mosley and Mayweather more options. In my opinion, Pacquiao needs those guys a lot more than they need him. In fact, if Mayweather beats the crap out of Juan Manuel Marquez...does him like he did Gatti...then I think it would be EXTREMELY difficult to argue that he's not the best P4P fighter in the world.


I agree Hype. If Floyd handles Marquez like he should you gotta give it up. That's why haters are pissed off right now cause they see it coming.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (Sugar Q @ May 23 2009, 11:45 PM) *
If Floyd is fighting Marquez @ 144 he's definitely not a true Jr-Middle-wt that's crazy. He never really fought at that weight. He was a bit sluggish fighting DelaHoya. 144-146 is Floyd's comfort zone right now. Don't know if you wanna call that a full fledge welter but it is at welter-wt.


If he is comfortable at any weight over 140 then he is a true welterweight. You don't have to weigh 147 just more than 140. 146 is his comfort zone? That is a full fledged welterweight indeed.
Lil-lightsout
QUOTE (thehype @ May 23 2009, 03:02 PM) *
In fact, if Mayweather beats the crap out of Juan Manuel Marquez...does him like he did Gatti...then I think it would be EXTREMELY difficult to argue that he's not the best P4P fighter in the world.


Okay... I toally disagree with what you are saying here. And yes, I am not the biggest fan of PBF, but I do respect his skills in the ring. Listen, I just can not grasp the fact he is fighting a natural 130-135 pound fighter. Floyd has been fighting welterweight for so many years now. Why should Floyd be cut some slack for this fight??? Fucking Mosley, Berto, Cotto, Collazo, etc. would wipe the floor with Marquez! So would that springboard them to the number one P4P spot if they beat the SMALLER number 2 P4P fighter??? No it would not, they would get crucified for doing it, it is too much of a size disadvantage. That is why most people, me included, thinks this fight really does nothing as far as stature is concerned. It is a mismatch IMO. Some people can call it hate, but I am just stating facts. Floyd should have just stuck to fighting a top welterweight for his fight back. This is just a scheme because it looks goood because he will dismantle the number 2P4P fighter. But like I said, other welterweights named above would beat Marquez too, but really what does that say? Now if Floyd beats the TOP welterweight(Mosley), well THEN you can say "it would be EXTREMELY difficult to argue that he's not the best P4P fighter in the world". But no matter what anyone tells me, this fight with JMM should NOT springboard him to the number one spot. Pacman has EARNED the number 1 P4P spot in the ring, and until PBF fights someone his own weight, my opinion and many others will not change. And don't get it twisted talking the "hate" stuff either, no fighter should get a pass for fighting someone noticeably smaller to try and get significant gains from a fight like this.

Now I do not care too much about this fight, but whatever for his first fight back. I just do not believe in putting him on the number 1 P4P fighter after this fight. I just think he needs to fight a welterweight next, considering that is what this fight is at and that is where he has been fighting for years. I mean what if Calzaghe came back and fought a 154-160 pound champion, and then expected to be P4P top 3 again? Joe would get hammered by the experts and fans, right?
thehype
QUOTE (Fitz @ May 23 2009, 10:06 PM) *
When he became the undisputed welter weight champion of the world. If he isn't a true welter weight, Mayweather-Marquez would be at 140. Marquez is just a 135 fighter, and probably barely makes a great 140 fighter, yet he is fighting Mayweather ay welter weight. If Mayweather wasn't a welter weight, and Marquez certainly isn't one, the fight would be happening at 140, so Mayweather because a welter weight when he won the undisputed champion, and cemented his position of being a welter weight by not fighting Marquez at 140.


I'm not saying he's not a true welterweight as I've always argued that he'd be able to compete with any welterweight just fine...I'm just saying, it wasn't too long ago when people were arguing that Floyd Mayweather was "too small" to be able to hang with any "true" welterweight, especially the "bigger" ones like Antonio Margarito, Joshua Clottey or Paul Williams. But if what Stevenski says is true, that "if he is comfortable at any weight over 140 then he is a true welterweight. You don't have to weigh 147 just more than 140," then why wouldn't Manny Pacquiao be considered a "true" welterweight too? I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he have to cut weight to make 140?
thehype
QUOTE (Lil-lightsout @ May 23 2009, 10:11 PM) *
Okay... I toally disagree with what you are saying here. And yes, I am not the biggest fan of PBF, but I do respect his skills in the ring. Listen, I just can not grasp the fact he is fighting a natural 130-135 pound fighter. Floyd has been fighting welterweight for so many years now. Why should Floyd be cut some slack for this fight??? Fucking Mosley, Berto, Cotto, Collazo, etc. would wipe the floor with Marquez! So would that springboard them to the number one P4P spot if they beat the SMALLER number 2 P4P fighter??? No it would not, they would get crucified for doing it, it is too much of a size disadvantage. That is why most people, me included, thinks this fight really does nothing as far as stature is concerned. It is a mismatch IMO. Some people can call it hate, but I am just stating facts. Floyd should have just stuck to fighting a top welterweight for his fight back. This is just a scheme because it looks goood because he will dismantle the number 2P4P fighter. But like I said, other welterweights named above would beat Marquez too, but really what does that say? Now if Floyd beats the TOP welterweight(Mosley), well THEN you can say "it would be EXTREMELY difficult to argue that he's not the best P4P fighter in the world". But no matter what anyone tells me, this fight with JMM should NOT springboard him to the number one spot. Pacman has EARNED the number 1 P4P spot in the ring, and until PBF fights someone his own weight, my opinion and many others will not change. And don't get it twisted talking the "hate" stuff either, no fighter should get a pass for fighting someone noticeably smaller to try and get significant gains from a fight like this.

Now I do not care too much about this fight, but whatever for his first fight back. I just do not believe in putting him on the number 1 P4P fighter after this fight. I just think he needs to fight a welterweight next, considering that is what this fight is at and that is where he has been fighting for years. I mean what if Calzaghe came back and fought a 154-160 pound champion, and then expected to be P4P top 3 again? Joe would get hammered by the experts and fans, right?


But on the flip side, why SHOULD Floyd get crucified for fighting a guy who A LOT of people believe actually defeated the alleged P4P guy, Manny Pacquiao, just one year ago? I mean, just a year ago, Manny Pacquiao was a "natural" 130-135 pound fighter too...in fact, when they actually fought, Manny weighed in a pound less than Marquez...which tells me that both guys were "sucking down" to make weight so I'm not buying the fact that they were "natural" 130-pound fighters since they weren't walking around at that weight. If anything, they were at least "natural" 135-pound fighters and I'm willing to bet they probably actually walked around at 140. It really just depends on your definition of being "natural" at a particular weight. I mean, is someone like Margarito or Paul Williams, who both suck down to make weight, actually considered "natural" welterweights? Floyd's a guy who pretty much walks around at the same weight he fights at. He's not cutting weight to make welterweight...he walks around at welterweight. Likewise, neither Manny nor Marquez walk around at 130 or 135 pounds. Both those guys probably walk around at about 140-145 pounds. They cut to make weight...so although you talk about them being sooooooooooooooo much smaller than a guy like Floyd, I totally disagree. Are they smaller? Sure, but you're not talking about the same size difference that De La Hoya had (or was supposed to have) over Pacquiao...you're not even talking about the same size difference that De La Hoya had over Floyd when they fought.

If Berto, Cotto, Collazo, etc. would wipe the floor with Marquez, obviously that wouldn't "springboard" them to the number one spot simply because their body of work throughout their career wouldn't warrant it, however, if Mosley or Floyd were to wipe the floor with him, then FUCK YEAH they should be catapulted to the number one spot because you're talking about a win over a guy that gave Manny Pacquiao all that he could handle just one year ago. If Shane or Floyd, beat the crap out of Marquez, then why the hell would I think Manny Pacquiao would do any better against those guys? I mean, I know what Shane can do and although he's been "retired", I know what Floyd can do too. If those guys did a "small guy" like Marquez dirty like that, well, Manny Pacquiao is a small guy too...it's not like he all of a sudden put on 10 pounds and is that much bigger than he was just a year ago. In fact, Marquez was going to follow Pacquiao to 135 and 140 in hopes of getting that third fight, a fight that Pacquiao wasn't really interested in when he opted to face David Diaz prior to De La Hoya. Marquez went up to 135 and handled both Casamayor and Juan Diaz, two guys that are DEFINITELY more difficult to handle than David Diaz, just fine.

I guess what I'm saying is, why should Floyd get crucified for fighting Marquez and yet everyone is salivating for him to fight Pacquiao? Pacquiao didn't all of a sudden go through some growth spurt. The fact of the matter is that Pacquiao is probably just as "small" as Marquez, so if it's okay to fight one guy, why is it not okay to fight the other? I mean, if Mayweather vs. Marquez is so much of a mismatch, then why did Pacquiao's win over De La Hoya all of a sudden catapult him into the top P4P spot? I mean, De La Hoya hasn't been a P4P fighters in YEARS...and Hatton? Pffffft! I've never thought Hatton was a great fighter so how has Manny's wins over Hatton and De La Hoya earned him his P4P spot in the ring? Other than those fights, all he's done during Floyd's retirement was beat David Diaz and struggle with Marquez. Don't get me wrong...he also had some GREAT wins over some guys like Barrera and Morales (who basically retired afterwards) while Floyd was still fighting, but honestly, everything that Manny is doing right now, Floyd has already done well before him so why should I disregard Floyd's skills, abilities and accomplishments if he comes back and displays that he's still got it (even if it is on display against a "smaller" fighter)?

Don't get me wrong...I'm not saying that Floyd beating Marquez should be considered a great challenge. I'm just saying...in my opinion, I don't necessarily believe that in a year's time, Manny Pacquiao has all of a sudden become that much bigger of a guy physically than Juan Manuel Marquez. If you think that Manny Pacquiao fighting Mayweather or Mosley is a legitimate fight, then why don't you think Marquez fighting them is a legitimate fight? For two guys who just faced each other a year ago, why do you think one of them has all of a sudden grown into that much bigger of a guy? If you're going to hammer Floyd for fighting Marquez, in my opinion, you should hammer him for fighting Pacquiao as well. The only reason why you don't, however, is simply because of Pacquiao's success against De La Hoya and Hatton. In my opinion, if you'd give him credit for fighting Pacquiao, you should give him credit for fighting Marquez as well (because quite frankly, I think Marquez would have beat the crap out of Hatton as well).
Lil-lightsout
Real quick, did not read your whole essay yet. LOL. You must be a fast typer. Just wanted to point out I am basing JMM mainly on his last fight when he went life and death with Juan Diaz. While you compare him to Pac when they basically went even up, but NOW Pac has destroyed and toyed with Diaz at 135, then Oscar, and then Hatton. So what I am basically saying that Pac has showed to be fine at the higher weights thus far and raised his game, JMM did not look like no world beater at 135 in his last fight and did not seem to me that he has what it takes to be even competative up at 147. And I am not knocking him either, because Juan Diaz is tough, but he is not even close to being a Mayweather.

Anyway, appreciate the lengthy response, and I will read more thoroughly now.
Lil-lightsout
Okay...just read everything. Very good read, not that I agree on everything, I hear what you are saying on many things. Unfortunately, my slooow typing and being tired limits my response tonight.

Again...I just think Pac has been way more impressive since there fights(with JMM) which has captured the publics desire him to see him fight PBF. You may be right, those fights just made him look unbeatable for the reasons we all know and I can agree with too. And JMM had a semi tough fight with Casa which he did end up stopping him late(which maybe should be impressive considering what a difficult fighter Casa is), and then he had a extremely tough war with Diaz that had JMM buckeled a few times. He ended up being the better fighter at the end, but for him having that much trouble with Diaz at 135 makes me wonder what he will look like at 147. Hopefully I am wrong and he will be only stronger and it helps him, but I doubt it.

Maybe JMM has Pac's number(I mean how the heck did he lose to John then)???
JMM is getting up there in age, and especially the wars he has been in, does he still have it in the tank like Pac does?
I am not on the Pac wagon by any means, in fact I KNOW Floyd would handle him(barring a huge punch from Pac).
In fact Mosley would destroy and KO Pac, and I would bet anyone that too.

Well, I am having trouble thinking clearly, off to bed. Hope this makes some sense to you.
Method
FM, Jr is DEFINITELY a welter. The guy was damn near as big as Baldomir and DLH and he fought those guys at Jr Middle. He was bigger than Gatti t welter. Who cares what lower weights he can get down to...just because he can suck it up to make a lower weight does not make it his "natural" weight. Look at fucking Greco Roman wrestling for Christ's sake.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (thehype @ May 24 2009, 04:11 AM) *
I'm not saying he's not a true welterweight as I've always argued that he'd be able to compete with any welterweight just fine...I'm just saying, it wasn't too long ago when people were arguing that Floyd Mayweather was "too small" to be able to hang with any "true" welterweight, especially the "bigger" ones like Antonio Margarito, Joshua Clottey or Paul Williams. But if what Stevenski says is true, that "if he is comfortable at any weight over 140 then he is a true welterweight. You don't have to weigh 147 just more than 140," then why wouldn't Manny Pacquiao be considered a "true" welterweight too? I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he have to cut weight to make 140?


There is a difference between cutting some weight to fight & being a natural at that weight class. Fighting Hatton at 140 made teh most sense for both guys as that is where they are comfortable at & both guys looked superb physically at 140.

Ultimatley Floyd is making fights happen above 140 because that is where he is most comfortable at & where his smaller opponent is least comfortable at & has never fought remotely near.

As for him being too small for the "big" welterweights we don't really know about that because he has made it clear many times that he will not fight a welterweight at welterweight. That does give some indication to where he is comfortable though.

What all this says to me is that a guy like PBF is currently comfortable fighting at welterweigh provided it is not a welterweight he is fighting.
The CEO
QUOTE (Hype)
If you think that Manny Pacquiao fighting Mayweather or Mosley is a legitimate fight, then why don't you think Marquez fighting them is a legitimate fight?


and that's that.

Marq-May IS LEGIT....doesn't matter if it's a bit of a mismatch at all....shit.....look how much of a mismatch Pac-Hat was....everyone considers THAT legitimate.

thehype
QUOTE (Method @ May 24 2009, 09:20 AM) *
FM, Jr is DEFINITELY a welter. The guy was damn near as big as Baldomir and DLH and he fought those guys at Jr Middle. He was bigger than Gatti t welter. Who cares what lower weights he can get down to...just because he can suck it up to make a lower weight does not make it his "natural" weight. Look at fucking Greco Roman wrestling for Christ's sake.


I agree that he's a welterweight...a natural welterweight who fights at the weight he walks around at...unlike a lot of fighters who suck down to a lower weight to have a physical advantage. Personally, I think Ricky Hatton AND Manny Pacquiao are BOTH welterweights as they likely walk around at about 145 pounds (Hatton's fat ass is probably even heavier than that). In fact, if this were still like the good ol' days of boxing with the traditional weight divisions, anybody from 136 to 147 would be considered a welterweight. Marquez himself likely walks around at 140-144 pounds so technically, he'd probably be considered a "natural" welterweight as well. Just because a fighter fights at a certain weight, I don't believe that makes it his "natural" weight. Kermit Cintron, Antonio Margarito and Paul Williams have all fought at welterweight, but I don't think that's their "natural" weight. Likewise, I don't think lightweigt is the "natural" weight of Marquez. In my opinion, whatever weight you walk around at...that's your "natural" weight.

I just don't understand why certain people want to make it sound like Mayweather is a beast of a welterweight. The guy doesn't suck down to make welterweight like Cotto, Margarito, Mosley, Clottey, Cintron and a lof of other guys. When it's time to weigh-in, the guy wakes up, takes a dump and boom...he makes weight. He's not going to be towering over Marquez or have that big of a size advantage over him...we're not talking about Hopkins vs. De La Hoya here (incidentally, I'm surprised Mayweather is taking more heat for fighting Marquez than Hopkins took for fighting De La Hoya, De La Hoya took for fighting Gatti or Roy Jones took for fighting Trinidad). Is he going to be the bigger man? Yeah...absolutely...but not so big where the fight should be considered a travesty like some people are making it out to be...especially since it was Marquez who ASKED for the fight. Marquez chose Mayweather...not the other way around.
Lil-lightsout
QUOTE (The C.E.O. @ May 24 2009, 12:02 PM) *
and that's that.

Marq-May IS LEGIT....doesn't matter if it's a bit of a mismatch at all....shit.....look how much of a mismatch Pac-Hat was....everyone considers THAT legitimate.


Your wrong. First of all, we have not even seen JMM at 147 yet, so how can you say that without even seeing what he looks like at that weight??? And Pac has brung his speed and power with him up to 140-147 as he has shown in his last 2 fights. Did you even see JMM's last fight at 135? So you think it is legit fight, but then why do you think it is a mismatch then? IMO it is a mismatch due to the fight being at 147, and come July we will all see with our own eyes.

Pac-Hatton was legit because of Hatton's proven history at 140 not losing his whole career. Maybe you saw it as a mismatch, but many others did not see it that way. What the fuck kind of history does JMM have at 147? If this fight was at 140 or lower, I would have ZERO problems with this fight.
thehype
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ May 24 2009, 09:45 AM) *
There is a difference between cutting some weight to fight & being a natural at that weight class. Fighting Hatton at 140 made teh most sense for both guys as that is where they are comfortable at & both guys looked superb physically at 140.

Ultimatley Floyd is making fights happen above 140 because that is where he is most comfortable at & where his smaller opponent is least comfortable at & has never fought remotely near.


I agree...there's a big difference between cutting some weight to fight and being natural at a weight class. Just to take your example of Pacquiao and Hatton looking "superb physically" at 140, Hatton was actually weighing 152 pounds on the night of the fight when he got knocked the fuck out by Pacquiao, who actually weighed 148 pounds. Sure, they weighed in at 140, but that's not the weight they actually fought at...and yet, they both still looked just as superb physically. LOL.

Look, last year, when Manny Pacquiao and Juan Manuel Marquez fought, they both made the SUPER FEATHERWEIGHT limit of 130....HOWEVER, on the night of the fight, according to HBO's unofficial scales, Juan Manuel Marquez weighed 141 pounds while Manny Pacquiao weighed 145 pounds. Now, does that mean that 130 was Manny Pacquiao's "natural" weight last year? Does it mean 135 was really his "natural" weight? In my opinion, whatever weight they truly fight at (meaning what they weigh when the fight actually takes place), then THAT'S the weight they're comfortable at. Mayweather's not the type of fighter that puts on an additional 10 pounds the night of the fight. If he weighs 146 at the weigh-in, he'll likely be the same weight the night of the fight. So my whole point is, on the night of the fight, why is it okay for Manny Pacquiao, who weighed 145 pounds, to fight Juan Manuel Marquez, but it's not okay for Floyd Mayweather Jr., who will likely weigh 147 on the night of the fight, to fight him? Keep in mind that Marquez and Pacquiao were making the super featherweight limit of 130, before Manny blew back up to 145. In fact, for Pacquiao's last four fights, on the night of the fight, he weighed 148 (vs. Hatton), 148.5 (vs. De La Hoya), 147 (vs. Diaz) and 145 (vs. Marquez)...meanwhile, on the night of his last four fights, Mayweather weighed 148 (vs. Hatton), 148 (vs. De La Hoya), 149 (vs. Baldomir) and 146 (vs. Judah). Truth be told, on the night of the fight, BOTH Pacquiao and Mayweather are pretty much exactly the same weight...so again, my question is, why is it okay for Manny Pacquiao, who usually weighs somewhere around the welterweight limit come fight night, to fight Juan Manuel Marquez but it's travesty and a mismatch for Floyd to fight him? Why is Floyd considered to be picking on "smaller" opponents, but Pacquiao gets a free pass when he's clearly sucking down to make weight when he blows up to 147 on the night of the fight?

QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ May 24 2009, 09:45 AM) *
As for him being too small for the "big" welterweights we don't really know about that because he has made it clear many times that he will not fight a welterweight at welterweight. That does give some indication to where he is comfortable though.

What all this says to me is that a guy like PBF is currently comfortable fighting at welterweigh provided it is not a welterweight he is fighting.


LOL. I think that's an unfair statement. I think Zab Judah and Carlos Baldomir were legit welterweights and Oscar De La Hoya was more than a legit welterweight that he actually fought at jr. middleweight. The only "small" guy he's fought at welterweight was Ricky Hatton and honestly, I think Hatton is probably a legit welterweight too considering he usually weighs in around 150 on the night of the fight. He was willing to fight Mosley, but Mosley's fucking tooth ache and the subsequent vacation he wanted to go on prevented that fight from happening when it should have. You can't blame Mayweather for that. About the only guys you can fault him for not fighting are Cotto and Margarito...okay...fine whatever...you can fault him for that, but I think it's unfair to make it sound like he doesn't want to fight a real welterweight at welterweight. That's ridiculous. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of other fights I prefer to see him in, but I'm also not silly enough to think that he's trying to avoid certain guys because he thinks they might be too big for them.
thehype
QUOTE (Lil-lightsout @ May 24 2009, 01:06 PM) *
Your wrong. First of all, we have not even seen JMM at 147 yet, so how can you say that without even seeing what he looks like at that weight??? And Pac has brung his speed and power with him up to 140-147 as he has shown in his last 2 fights. Did you even see JMM's last fight at 135? So you think it is legit fight, but then why do you think it is a mismatch then? IMO it is a mismatch due to the fight being at 147, and come July we will all see with our own eyes.

Pac-Hatton was legit because of Hatton's proven history at 140 not losing his whole career. Maybe you saw it as a mismatch, but many others did not see it that way. What the fuck kind of history does JMM have at 147? If this fight was at 140 or lower, I would have ZERO problems with this fight.


1. It's a legit fight because Marquez asked for it...he wanted it so obviously he feels perfectly content with his abilities to fight a guy of Mayweather's caliber.

2. It's a legit fight because I've seen what Marquez could do against a guy who weighed 145 pounds, like Manny Pacquiao weighed on the night of their rematch.

3. It's a legit fight because Manny Pacquiao has consistently weighed 145-148 pounds for his last four fights...just like Mayweather has weighed 146-149 pounds for his last four fights. If it's okay for one guy to fight him, why is it not okay for the other guy to fight him?

I think you might be getting too hung up on weight division limits as opposed to focusing on the actual weight of the fighters. Both Pacquiao and Mayweather walk around very close to the same weight. You're talking about a difference of 2-3 pounds tops when it comes to their actual weight on the night of the fight. Marquez doesn't weigh 135 pounds when he actually fights...he also comes in above 140. I just don't understand why you give Pacquiao a free pass to fight Marquez but you slam Mayweather, who isn't really that much bigger than Pacquiao.
dbdbdb
QUOTE (thehype @ May 24 2009, 12:08 AM) *
But on the flip side, why SHOULD Floyd get crucified for fighting a guy who A LOT of people believe actually defeated the alleged P4P guy, Manny Pacquiao, just one year ago? I mean, just a year ago, Manny Pacquiao was a "natural" 130-135 pound fighter too...in fact, when they actually fought, Manny weighed in a pound less than Marquez...which tells me that both guys were "sucking down" to make weight so I'm not buying the fact that they were "natural" 130-pound fighters since they weren't walking around at that weight. If anything, they were at least "natural" 135-pound fighters and I'm willing to bet they probably actually walked around at 140. It really just depends on your definition of being "natural" at a particular weight. I mean, is someone like Margarito or Paul Williams, who both suck down to make weight, actually considered "natural" welterweights? Floyd's a guy who pretty much walks around at the same weight he fights at. He's not cutting weight to make welterweight...he walks around at welterweight. Likewise, neither Manny nor Marquez walk around at 130 or 135 pounds. Both those guys probably walk around at about 140-145 pounds. They cut to make weight...so although you talk about them being sooooooooooooooo much smaller than a guy like Floyd, I totally disagree. Are they smaller? Sure, but you're not talking about the same size difference that De La Hoya had (or was supposed to have) over Pacquiao...you're not even talking about the same size difference that De La Hoya had over Floyd when they fought.

If Berto, Cotto, Collazo, etc. would wipe the floor with Marquez, obviously that wouldn't "springboard" them to the number one spot simply because their body of work throughout their career wouldn't warrant it, however, if Mosley or Floyd were to wipe the floor with him, then FUCK YEAH they should be catapulted to the number one spot because you're talking about a win over a guy that gave Manny Pacquiao all that he could handle just one year ago. If Shane or Floyd, beat the crap out of Marquez, then why the hell would I think Manny Pacquiao would do any better against those guys? I mean, I know what Shane can do and although he's been "retired", I know what Floyd can do too. If those guys did a "small guy" like Marquez dirty like that, well, Manny Pacquiao is a small guy too...it's not like he all of a sudden put on 10 pounds and is that much bigger than he was just a year ago. In fact, Marquez was going to follow Pacquiao to 135 and 140 in hopes of getting that third fight, a fight that Pacquiao wasn't really interested in when he opted to face David Diaz prior to De La Hoya. Marquez went up to 135 and handled both Casamayor and Juan Diaz, two guys that are DEFINITELY more difficult to handle than David Diaz, just fine.

I guess what I'm saying is, why should Floyd get crucified for fighting Marquez and yet everyone is salivating for him to fight Pacquiao? Pacquiao didn't all of a sudden go through some growth spurt. The fact of the matter is that Pacquiao is probably just as "small" as Marquez, so if it's okay to fight one guy, why is it not okay to fight the other? I mean, if Mayweather vs. Marquez is so much of a mismatch, then why did Pacquiao's win over De La Hoya all of a sudden catapult him into the top P4P spot? I mean, De La Hoya hasn't been a P4P fighters in YEARS...and Hatton? Pffffft! I've never thought Hatton was a great fighter so how has Manny's wins over Hatton and De La Hoya earned him his P4P spot in the ring? Other than those fights, all he's done during Floyd's retirement was beat David Diaz and struggle with Marquez. Don't get me wrong...he also had some GREAT wins over some guys like Barrera and Morales (who basically retired afterwards) while Floyd was still fighting, but honestly, everything that Manny is doing right now, Floyd has already done well before him so why should I disregard Floyd's skills, abilities and accomplishments if he comes back and displays that he's still got it (even if it is on display against a "smaller" fighter)?

Don't get me wrong...I'm not saying that Floyd beating Marquez should be considered a great challenge. I'm just saying...in my opinion, I don't necessarily believe that in a year's time, Manny Pacquiao has all of a sudden become that much bigger of a guy physically than Juan Manuel Marquez. If you think that Manny Pacquiao fighting Mayweather or Mosley is a legitimate fight, then why don't you think Marquez fighting them is a legitimate fight? For two guys who just faced each other a year ago, why do you think one of them has all of a sudden grown into that much bigger of a guy? If you're going to hammer Floyd for fighting Marquez, in my opinion, you should hammer him for fighting Pacquiao as well. The only reason why you don't, however, is simply because of Pacquiao's success against De La Hoya and Hatton. In my opinion, if you'd give him credit for fighting Pacquiao, you should give him credit for fighting Marquez as well (because quite frankly, I think Marquez would have beat the crap out of Hatton as well).


Well put HYPE!!!!!

And you exposed the contradictions and hypocrisy at work nicely:

"If you think that Manny Pacquiao fighting Mayweather or Mosley is a legitimate fight, then why don't you think Marquez fighting them is a legitimate fight?"


Mean Mister Mustard
This is isn't a legitimate fight by any means. We're talking about a skilled guy in Marquez but he is smaller, older and slower than Mayweather. Pacquiao at least has the speed and power thing going for him, Marquez does not. Marquez was eating jabs all night from Diaz, imagine what Mayweather is going to do. This fight is BS. Marquez was cherry picked so that Mayweather can say he came back against the #2 PFP fighter in the world, he beat the guy Pacquiao beat (Even though Mayweather himself said in the Kenny interview that boxing Math means shit), and adds another big name to his resume.

Mayweather's dupage of the fans is as good as his defensive abilities. I have a problem with this fight but what bothers me even more is people buying up the BS.

By the way here's a nice article from MB.

http://maxboxing.com/Gabriel/Montoya052309.asp
Lil-lightsout
QUOTE (dbdbdb @ May 24 2009, 01:18 PM) *
Well put HYPE!!!!!

And you exposed the contradictions and hypocrisy at work nicely:

"If you think that Manny Pacquiao fighting Mayweather or Mosley is a legitimate fight, then why don't you think Marquez fighting them is a legitimate fight?"


laugh.gif No need to even respond to you for obvious reasons.
thehype
QUOTE (Lil-lightsout @ May 24 2009, 01:26 PM) *
laugh.gif No need to even respond to you for obvious reasons.


You can respond to my response to you though.

laugh.gif
The CEO
QUOTE (Lil-lightsout @ May 24 2009, 01:06 PM) *
Your wrong.


God Damnit, man....how many more times have I gotta be right for you to stop saying I'm wrong?....lol

thehype
QUOTE (Mean Mister Mustard @ May 24 2009, 01:19 PM) *
This is isn't a legitimate fight by any means. We're talking about a skilled guy in Marquez but he is smaller, older and slower than Mayweather. Pacquiao at least has the speed and power thing going for him, Marquez does not. Marquez was eating jabs all night from Diaz, imagine what Mayweather is going to do. This fight is BS. Marquez was cherry picked so that Mayweather can say he came back against the #2 PFP fighter in the world, he beat the guy Pacquiao beat (Even though Mayweather himself said in the Kenny interview that boxing Math means shit), and adds another big name to his resume.

Mayweather's dupage of the fans is as good as his defensive abilities. I have a problem with this fight but what bothers me even more is people buying up the BS.

By the way here's a nice article from MB.

http://maxboxing.com/Gabriel/Montoya052309.asp


You're talking about a skilled guy in Marquez who A LOT of people believe already beat Pacqiao, who's also allegedly "smaller" than Mayweather (although I would argue that he's not that small). Pacquiao may have the "speed" and "power" thing going for him, but who's to say that's what it takes to be a technically skilled fighter like Mayweather. Marquez has the better technical counter-punching skills and just might be able to better recognize any traps that Mayweather is trying to set for him...truth be told, those better technical boxing skills are exactly what made him so successful in both fights against "speed" and "power" of Pacquiao. While Marquez may have been eating a lot of jabs from Diaz, Mayweather doesn't fight like Diaz, who throws a ton of punches and is constantly coming forward. I think the comparisons in the two fights are totally unwarranted. This fight isn't BS...at least not anymore BS than the rematch between Pacquiao and Marquez. The only reason why that fight is considered more legit is simply because both fighters weighed in at the super featherweight limit of 130 pounds...however, as I've continuously stated, when the two of them actually stepped into the ring, Marquez weighed 141 while Pacquiao weighed 145. Marquez wasn't cherry picked...Marquez called him out. Again, don't get me wrong, I'd much rather see him fight Mayweather, but if people are going to Manny Pacquiao so much credit for beating Marquez on a night when he weighed in at 145 pounds, then why can't Mayweather get credit for beating him if he weighs just two more pounds than Pacquiao weighs?

As for the article from MB, Gabe Montoya can't stand Mayweather...he's told me that personally on quite a few occassions over the phone so I don't really put too much stock in an article written by someone who's already biased. LOL. It was definitely a well-written article though...it's just difficult for me to read too much into an article written by somebody who's told me that they can't stand Mayweather. LOL.
Mean Mister Mustard
QUOTE (thehype @ May 24 2009, 01:43 PM) *
You're talking about a skilled guy in Marquez who A LOT of people believe already beat Pacqiao, who's also allegedly "smaller" than Mayweather (although I would argue that he's not that small). Pacquiao may have the "speed" and "power" thing going for him, but who's to say that's what it takes to be a technically skilled fighter like Mayweather. Marquez has the better technical counter-punching skills and just might be able to better recognize any traps that Mayweather is trying to set for him...truth be told, those better technical boxing skills are exactly what made him so successful in both fights against "speed" and "power" of Pacquiao. While Marquez may have been eating a lot of jabs from Diaz, Mayweather doesn't fight like Diaz, who throws a ton of punches and is constantly coming forward. I think the comparisons in the two fights are totally unwarranted. This fight isn't BS...at least not anymore BS than the rematch between Pacquiao and Marquez. The only reason why that fight is considered more legit is simply because both fighters weighed in at the super featherweight limit of 130 pounds...however, as I've continuously stated, when the two of them actually stepped into the ring, Marquez weighed 141 while Pacquiao weighed 145. Marquez wasn't cherry picked...Marquez called him out. Again, don't get me wrong, I'd much rather see him fight Mayweather, but if people are going to Manny Pacquiao so much credit for beating Marquez on a night when he weighed in at 145 pounds, then why can't Mayweather get credit for beating him if he weighs just two more pounds than Pacquiao weighs?

As for the article from MB, Gabe Montoya can't stand Mayweather...he's told me that personally on quite a few occassions over the phone so I don't really put too much stock in an article written by someone who's already biased. LOL. It was definitely a well-written article though...it's just difficult for me to read too much into an article written by somebody who's told me that they can't stand Mayweather. LOL.


Montoya might be biased but he made some good points.

About the Diaz comparison, wasn't really trying to compare the styles I was more focusing on how Diaz seemed to repeatedly land and snap Marquez's head back with those jabs. Mayweather is not going to throw as many punches as Diaz but he is more selective and accurate with them and could land them easier and more precisely than Marquez.

Mayweather might weight the same as Pacuiao did in the Marquez rematch but Mayweather looks more solid and muscular. The guy outmuscled Judah and Hatton. So Marquez might be able to time Pacquiao's speed and power (although he had a very hard time in the rematch) but now he has to handle Mayweather's strenght, speed and defense. Plus Marquez doesn't like when a guy makes him lead. This has mismatch written all over it.
thehype
QUOTE (Mean Mister Mustard @ May 24 2009, 02:11 PM) *
Montoya might be biased but he made some good points.


Did he though? I mean, the majority of the article was simply him taking quotes from Mayweather and saying that he contradicts himself. HELLO!!!!! No fucking shit...who DOESN'T contradict themselves in boxing. Every fighter, manager, promoter and trainer contradicts themselves because the sport is a business and as such, what they say yesterday might not hold true with what they say today depending on what goal they're trying to achieve.

The only realy point that I thought he was trying to make was that Mayweather didn't want to fight Mosley...to which he basically said, "While it’s understandable that Mayweather wouldn’t take such a fight right out of the gates of retirement, the justifications surrounding the why not ring hollow." Okay, so if it's "understandable that Mayweather wouldn't take such a fight right out of the gates of retirement," then what the fuck is Gabe crying about? Sounds to me like he's just upset that Floyd didn't come out and explain to him the actual reason why he chose not to fight Mosley...whether it's because he truly wanted a "tune-up" or simply because he stood to make more money fighting Marquez than Mosley, it really doesn't matter to Gabe because it's "understandable"...he just preferred that Floyd actually come out and give him the actual reason. To which, I would say, "fuck you Gabe, I ain't gotta tell you shit." I mean, don't get me wrong, he did an excellent job of pointing out the contradictions in some of Floyd's statements, but the same can be said about anyone. I mean, everyone in boxing, EVERYONE contradicts themselves...even Brian fucking Kenny. Kenny can press Floyd about the reason why he chose to fight Judah, but then when Floyd fights Carlos Baldomir, Kenny doesn't give him credit for fighting the guy considered to be the Ring Magazine champion. One day the Ring Magazine titles are all that matters, the next day, it's not good enough and Floyd should be fighting Margarito. Same can be said about Freddie Roach...one day, Manny Pacquiao is "handling the bigger sparring partners well" and size "is not an issue at all" when it comes to fighting De La Hoya, but when it comes to fighting Mosley or Cotto, oh, well then size matters a whole hell of a lot.

"Manny weighed 147-1/2 when he fought Diaz and his speed and power was still there. So I don't think it's really a problem. And our body fat's at 6% right now and it's going to be probably at 4-1/2 or 5% which is normal for Manny Pacquiao going into a fight. I don't see any problems." - Freddie Roach

"He weighs 151 pounds right now. We have him on a better diet and feeding him more protein and putting the weight on (unintelligible) keeping that weight stabilized actually. And he's been about the same weight throughout camp and so we were a couple of pounds overweight, actually." - Freddie Roach

"So ten pounds I'm not really worried about that because I feel that speed wins this fight - not size." - Freddie Roach

So all that talk about Manny weighing 151 and 147...all that talk about not being worried about 10 pounds...WTF??? Fucking Roach contradicts himself as well so where's the article pointing out all that BS? I'm just saying, I didn't really see any valid point that Gabe brought up other than the fact that Mayweather contradicts himself, but you know what, so does everyone else when it comes time to trying to get what they want.

QUOTE (Mean Mister Mustard @ May 24 2009, 02:11 PM) *
About the Diaz comparison, wasn't really trying to compare the styles I was more focusing on how Diaz seemed to repeatedly land and snap Marquez's head back with those jabs. Mayweather is not going to throw as many punches as Diaz but he is more selective and accurate with them and could land them easier and more precisely than Marquez.


Sure, Mayweather could land them easier, but that doesn't mean that he will. I'm just saying, if Mayweather fighting Marquez is sooooooo much of a mismatch, then Mayweather fighting Pacquiao should be just as much of a mismatch. The only reason why people don't think so is because of Pacquiao's performances over a drained Oscar De La Hoya and a garbage Ricky Hatton. That being said, who's to say that a drained Oscar De La Hoya and a garbage Ricky Hatton were more dangerous opponents than Joel Casamayor and Juan Diaz? How do you know how well Pacquiao would have done with either one of those guys? For all you know, Diaz just might have been able to repeatedly land and snap Pacquiao's head back just as easily with those jabs.

QUOTE (Mean Mister Mustard @ May 24 2009, 02:11 PM) *
Mayweather might weight the same as Pacuiao did in the Marquez rematch but Mayweather looks more solid and muscular. The guy outmuscled Judah and Hatton.


Looks more solid? Does Mayweather really look THAT much more ripped and muscular than Manny Pacquiao? I certainly don't think so. In fact, I'd argue that they look just about the same with Manny actually having the bigger legs. I don't think Pacquiao would have any problems outmuscling Hatton (as we already saw) or Judah, and yet, he didn't really blow through Marquez.

QUOTE (Mean Mister Mustard @ May 24 2009, 02:11 PM) *
So Marquez might be able to time Pacquiao's speed and power (although he had a very hard time in the rematch) but now he has to handle Mayweather's strenght, speed and defense. Plus Marquez doesn't like when a guy makes him lead. This has mismatch written all over it.


I didn't see him having a "very hard time" in the rematch...the fight was pretty damn close. If he had such a difficult time, then sooooo many people wouldn't have thought he won. In fact, I thought Marquez gave just as good as he got...even rocking Pacquiao from time to time and dominating a few rounds of his own. I don't think Marquez disklikes leading as much as you may think...maybe the old Marquez, but the Marquez that fights today has a slightly different style than he had when he was just sitting back and countering the Derrick Gainers of the world, which contributes to the reason why he gets hit more often now than in the past. I think he does a pretty good job of mixing it up...leading when he has to and countering when he chooses. I think he gives Mayweather more trouble than you expect...similar to the few rounds of success that Judah had. Ultimately, in the end, I think Mayweather wins and possibly stops Marquez late in the fight after he figures out what he wants to do and begins to break him down with his underrated body punching. I think Marquez will win 3, maybe 4 rounds, but I don't think Floyd will just blow through him like Pacquiao just did to Hatton.

QUOTE (Mean Mister Mustard @ May 24 2009, 02:11 PM) *
This has mismatch written all over it.


Then so does Mayweather vs. Pacquiao. I'm just not buying the fact that Mayweather is that much bigger than Manny Pacquiao was when he fought Marquez. Focus more on the actual weights of the fighters as opposed to the weight divisions that they fight at.
Mean Mister Mustard
That's true that every one in boxing contreadicts themselves, it's just more frustrating when Mayweather does it since he's so good and he's basically wasting his time now. I've often said that maybe he will fight Mosley, Coto and Williams and render this whole discussion worthless but for the moment I can only shake my head in disgust every time Mayweather opens his mouth.

QUOTE
Sure he could, but that's not to say that he will. I'm just saying, if Mayweather fighting Marquez is sooooooo much of mismatch, then Mayweather fighting Pacquiao should be just as much of a mismatch...the only reason why people don't think so is because of Pacquiao's performances over a drained Oscar De La Hoya and a garbage Ricky Hatton. That being said, who's to say that a drained Oscar De La Hoya and a garbage Ricky Hatton were more dangerous opponents than Joel Casamayor and Juan Diaz? How do you know how well Pacquiao would have done with either one of those guys? For all you know, Diaz just might have been able to repeatedly land and snap Pacquiao's head back just as easily with those jabs.


Fair points but I'm not talking about a Pacquiao-Mayweather fight. I'm talking about this one and Marquez is slower, smaller and older than Mayweather. Maybe his timing will beat Mayweather, like you said. But that's hard to envision seeing as how PBF is also better defensively and faster. I am rooting for Marquez though and hope to god that he pulls of the upset.


Lil-lightsout
QUOTE (thehype @ May 24 2009, 01:17 PM) *
1. It's a legit fight because Marquez asked for it...he wanted it so obviously he feels perfectly content with his abilities to fight a guy of Mayweather's caliber.

2. It's a legit fight because I've seen what Marquez could do against a guy who weighed 145 pounds, like Manny Pacquiao weighed on the night of their rematch.

3. It's a legit fight because Manny Pacquiao has consistently weighed 145-148 pounds for his last four fights...just like Mayweather has weighed 146-149 pounds for his last four fights. If it's okay for one guy to fight him, why is it not okay for the other guy to fight him?

I think you might be getting too hung up on weight division limits as opposed to focusing on the actual weight of the fighters. Both Pacquiao and Mayweather walk around very close to the same weight. You're talking about a difference of 2-3 pounds tops when it comes to their actual weight on the night of the fight. Marquez doesn't weigh 135 pounds when he actually fights...he also comes in above 140. I just don't understand why you give Pacquiao a free pass to fight Marquez but you slam Mayweather, who isn't really that much bigger than Pacquiao.


Okay, here is your response from me, you deserve it atleast. Then I am DONE. This just gets out of hand, and people are just not changing there opinions regardless what anyone says.

1. Just because JMM called him out it does not make it legit. It is obvious he called him out because he wants to get paid, which he deserves. But he knows 147 is not his natural fighting weight, 135 is, and until JMM actually fights there and proves me wrong my opinion will not change. Regardless of all your talk about walking around weight stuff, JMM is unproven at 147.

2. Bad example. Pac put on that weight in ONE freaking day, he weighed 130 the day before at the weigh in. Again...then what happened against Juan Diaz then when he went life and death with him??? You are bringing up a fight that happened about a year ago(Pac), lets just stick to what JMM looked like against a LIGHTWEIGHT in his last fight. Now he supposed to go up two weight classes and fight his natural walking around weight against argueably the best P4P fighter?

3. Pac has proven himself so far at the higher weights in his recent performances, he ACTUALLY did it in the ring already. JMM has showed us zilch so far up at 140 yet alone up at 147. So as of right now I believe it to be a big mismatch, until JMM can prove me wrong in the ring. And if he does, I will be the FIRST to admit I was wrong about the whole weight issue. But I am surewhen things go down as I suspect, there will be many huggers who will refuse to do the same when this massacre goes down.

I do not think I am getting too hung up on the weight thing. I personally think PBF is naturally bigger than JMM. Because if JMM can comfortably make 135, and PBF can only make 147, what does that say right there. Shit, maybe Floyd keeps his weight down all the time and JMM gets a little heavier between fights. Also, fighters are SUPPOSED to fight at there OPTIMAL fighting weight without hindering there performance, not there damn walking around weights. People constantly questioned Pac moving up until he PROVED himself in the ring in spectacular fashion. So no, JMM proved nothing at all at 140 or 147 yet. In his last fight the only thing he proved to me is how to struggle against a lightweight. And now he is going to be competative up at 147 against Floyd. Gimme a break.

If Floyd just stuck to fighting a damn top welterweight, you would not here a peep from me.

And answer this to me. Why the hell does Floyd himself in interviews even say about how no smaller man, or whatever the hell he said, can beat me??? If Floyd can even admit, it has got to be true. Right?
Lil-lightsout
QUOTE (thehype @ May 24 2009, 01:28 PM) *
You can respond to my response to you though.

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