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du365
He was in Victor's face right after he quit. The guy didn't even care about the HBO cameras in his face. He's all like "WTF happened to you?" "You didn't keep your left hand up!"
Box in Hand
He had every right to be mad. They built Ortiz up as the next Pacqiuao and he showed zero fucking heart. And, he's thinkink of retiring at 22. Fuck Ortiz, he has been exposed.
kidbazooka1
Maidana is a bad dude but Ortiz lost that fight because he lost his head. When you fight a guy with that type of power you gotta use your superior boxing skills which Ortiz clearly had over Maidana but he got too carried away with the KD's and fought Maidana's fight and ended up losing.

I honsetly don't think Ortiz wants it it was pretty obviouse by his post fight interview. Too much hype for a non proven fighter he looked good whne everything was going his way but when the going got tough he folded.
The Original MrFactor
I didnt think that Mosley was appropriate in coming out and berating the kid. he should have done that behind closed doors. The kid just got his ass kicked.
thehype
"I'm not going to go out on my back; I'm not going to lay down for nobody, you know. I'd rather just, hey, I'm going to stop while I'm ahead that way I speak well when I'm older...I'm young, but I don't think I deserve to be getting beaten up like this so I have a lot of thinking to do." - Victor Ortiz, June 27, 2009
provo
WOW! I missed the fight 2nite . Did Ortiz really go out like a bitch ? Is this kid done
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (du365 @ Jun 27 2009, 10:42 PM) *
He was in Victor's face right after he quit. The guy didn't even care about the HBO cameras in his face. He's all like "WTF happened to you?" "You didn't keep your left hand up!"


i saw that.. and i also have to say i was shocked at ortiz.. i was becoming a fan but he showed the heart of the lion off the wizard of oz tonight... he could have fought on... went out on his shield... but he quit...mosely went off because ortiz was to be their new generation fighter.... thats not gonna be...
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (thehype @ Jun 27 2009, 11:37 PM) *
"I'm not going to go out on my back; I'm not going to lay down for nobody, you know. I'd rather just, hey, I'm going to stop while I'm ahead that way I speak well when I'm older...I'm young, but I don't think I deserve to be getting beaten up like this so I have a lot of thinking to do." - Victor Ortiz, June 27, 2009


yeah that was some deep words... he dont have the heart...
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (The Original MrFactor @ Jun 27 2009, 11:36 PM) *
I didnt think that Mosley was appropriate in coming out and berating the kid. he should have done that behind closed doors. The kid just got his ass kicked.


i agree but i think it was done because there wasa lot of money invested in ortiz... i will be suprised to see ortiz fighting for golden boy in his next fight.. i also noticed how ortiz turned his back on mosely during that ass chewing... he might come back from this but i doubt he will be a golden boy fighter...
EirbinX
i remember when billy dib....( another up n' comer who mosley sucks off) got his ass kicked in a real boring fight on the hopkins - pavlik undercard and mosley didnt say shit to him.....thazz fucked up and embarrasing
BGv2.0
You know....the guy is 22 years old.

The shit he said.....I admit will haunt him. BUT.....up until that 6th round.....this guy displayed heart and ability.

Right after a loss like that.....it's not the time to really put too much into what he said.

From what I saw.....this kid goes back to the drawing board....and we ALL KNOW this fight is worth a quick rematch....it was that good.....he has the tools to make the second fight a different fight all together. THEN we could have a third....it would be great!

I think once he looks back on the tape and looks at just how much of a better fight he could have fought if he had made the adjustments...he's going to want another shot at this guy.

The guy has a good record and has displayed heart, ability and power.....he just needs to get his head on straight about where he is and where he could go.

Even if his health is of major concern.....he has the skills to make some VERY good money and retire early if he so chooses....hopefully he will be smart about hat fact and get back in there with the right frame of mind.

Look....if this sport can give Golota chance after chance.....this guy is entitled to the same IMHO.
kingknockout
not ready for lamont peterson
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (BGv2.0 @ Jun 28 2009, 02:12 AM) *
You know....the guy is 22 years old.

The shit he said.....I admit will haunt him. BUT.....up until that 6th round.....this guy displayed heart and ability.

Right after a loss like that.....it's not the time to really put too much into what he said.

From what I saw.....this kid goes back to the drawing board....and we ALL KNOW this fight is worth a quick rematch....it was that good.....he has the tools to make the second fight a different fight all together. THEN we could have a third....it would be great!

I think once he looks back on the tape and looks at just how much of a better fight he could have fought if he had made the adjustments...he's going to want another shot at this guy.

The guy has a good record and has displayed heart, ability and power.....he just needs to get his head on straight about where he is and where he could go.

Even if his health is of major concern.....he has the skills to make some VERY good money and retire early if he so chooses....hopefully he will be smart about hat fact and get back in there with the right frame of mind.

Look....if this sport can give Golota chance after chance.....this guy is entitled to the same IMHO.


i agree with what you are saying but you must admit his heart is in question right now... he was probably up by a little on the cards at the time of the stoppage... i looked to me like ortiz said fuck it im hurt and im not gonna go out like that.. actually he said it himself but he could have at least gave himself that extra little chance...
BigG
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Jun 28 2009, 04:11 PM) *
i agree with what you are saying but you must admit his heart is in question right now... he was probably up by a little on the cards at the time of the stoppage... i looked to me like ortiz said fuck it im hurt and im not gonna go out like that.. actually he said it himself but he could have at least gave himself that extra little chance...


Victor has all the talent in the world physically and has impressed alot of fans on his way to the top and was being looked as one of the future superstars of the sport. Now in his first title fight, he quits (?) and talks about retirement in the interview? Pretty sad.
salvador
QUOTE (BGv2.0 @ Jun 28 2009, 02:12 AM) *
You know....the guy is 22 years old.

The shit he said.....I admit will haunt him. BUT.....up until that 6th round.....this guy displayed heart and ability.

Right after a loss like that.....it's not the time to really put too much into what he said.

From what I saw.....this kid goes back to the drawing board....and we ALL KNOW this fight is worth a quick rematch....it was that good.....he has the tools to make the second fight a different fight all together. THEN we could have a third....it would be great!

I think once he looks back on the tape and looks at just how much of a better fight he could have fought if he had made the adjustments...he's going to want another shot at this guy.

The guy has a good record and has displayed heart, ability and power.....he just needs to get his head on straight about where he is and where he could go.

Even if his health is of major concern.....he has the skills to make some VERY good money and retire early if he so chooses....hopefully he will be smart about hat fact and get back in there with the right frame of mind.

Look....if this sport can give Golota chance after chance.....this guy is entitled to the same IMHO.


I agree.

As far as the poster who said Ortiz wouldn't be fighting for Golden Boy, why not? He's going to fight again on an undercard, so why wouldn't Golden Boy want some of that money if he's under contract. The kid has skills, speed, power, and until the moment he quit he was showing great courage. Ortiz was just in one of the most exciting fights of the year (everyone watching will definitely remember him now). Seriously, who wouldn't want to see that rematch? And I certainly wouldn't miss Ortiz-Hatton, Ortiz-Campbell, Ortiz-Holt, Ortiz-Malignaggi, or Ortiz-Khan.

I think Ortiz is still a money fighter.
JonnyBlaze
I said it before and I'll say it again,I never fully bought into him..I like him but I didn't feel he was going to be as great as everyone expected..Thoughts of retirement already is messed up but he is looking out for his health..
Spyder
Hearing him talk to Max after the fight reminded me a lot of the MMA guys after a loss...it's the "living to fight another day" mentality that all of them have. Tapping out when in danger...I've never understood it.

Exposed is not even a justifiable description for what that little post fight interview did for him. It basically told every fighter that he ever faces to press him and he'll fold. Turn up the heat, and he'll leave the kitchen.

I wish HBO would just let the cream rise to the top, and stop trying to force the next hype job down our throats. Expand Boxing After Dark into a true up-and-comers show...travel the country, and showcase the BEST local talent from different areas. Guys that put on good shows for the area, but might not have the big-time promoter to get them on TV. Guys that are hungry. Guys that bring it everytime they come out...that's who we want to see!

From there, let the fans decide who we want to support...don't worry, ticket sales and PPV buys will be a good indicater. Just don't tell us that THIS guy is the next superstar that we're expected to adore. FUCK THAT!
Snoop
QUOTE (Spyder @ Jun 28 2009, 08:50 PM) *
Hearing him talk to Max after the fight reminded me a lot of the MMA guys after a loss...it's the "living to fight another day" mentality that all of them have. Tapping out when in danger...I've never understood it.

Well have you ever participated in combat sports?
Spyder
QUOTE (snoopnick @ Jun 28 2009, 08:24 PM) *
Well have you ever participated in combat sports?

Now is not the time to be smarmy. lol

Yes, I have and quitting was never on my mind. Overcoming adversity, and trying to win was all that I thought about. But that's not really the point. I didn't choose boxing or MMA as my profession. I chose to work in television. A more appropriate question that you could ask me would be...Have you ever stopped directing a show and left the control room because something wasn't going my way? No, I have never quit while doing my job. I don't think that's a "special" quality that I have. I think that just makes me a professional.

Now, back to the topic...
Snoop
QUOTE (Spyder @ Jun 29 2009, 12:52 AM) *
Now is not the time to be smarmy. lol

Yes, I have and quitting was never on my mind. Overcoming adversity, and trying to win was all that I thought about. But that's not really the point. I didn't choose boxing or MMA as my profession. I chose to work in television. A more appropriate question that you could ask me would be...Have you ever stopped directing a show and left the control room because something wasn't going my way? No, I have never quit while doing my job. I don't think that's a "special" quality that I have. I think that just makes me a professional.

Now, back to the topic...

Well I think this is very much on topic, unless you're talking about how pissed Mosley was after the fight, which none of your previous post addressed. I also think your analogy with your job is unfair. Would you stop directing a show or leave the control room if continuing meant potentially costing your life or causing permanent damage? Don't get me wrong, the demands of boxing/MMA are worlds apart from the demands of TV production, but I don't think sacrificing your life is a requirement of either.

Now in this case of Ortiz, I think your viewpoints are valid. He was still very much in the fight and hadn't taken that much damaged up until the point he quit. He could have very well won had he pushed through. I just don't think it should suddenly be generalized to a "I don't understand that mentality of never quitting in any case of MMA/Boxing" because one guy folded under pressure.
Keith
I am a middle school history teacher. Sometimes I get mentally fatigued/stressed and want to quit right around 1:00 pm. I dont get to walk out of class and expect to still collect that paycheck at the end of the week. I actually have no problem with a fighter quitting for whatever reason the choose. They shouldnt get paid. Whats not fair about that?

Shane Mosley is pissed because he and his company just lost the ability to make some dough.
Boxingjunkie
This is a stupid topic. Anyone who saw the fight knows that Mosley was not in his face with WTF did you do. He was talking to Ortiz calmly telling him one of the things he did wrong. He didnt look that pissed to me. The look on Oscars face showed he was more pissed than Shane. Ortiz headlines his first major show and he quits. It will be hard for Ortiz to come back from this and be a top star after this.
thehype
QUOTE (Spyder @ Jun 28 2009, 04:50 PM) *
Hearing him talk to Max after the fight reminded me a lot of the MMA guys after a loss...it's the "living to fight another day" mentality that all of them have. Tapping out when in danger...I've never understood it.


That's a dumb ass statement obviously made by someone who's never been put in a submission hold.

They don't tap out because they have a "live to fight another day" mentality...they tap out because they don't want their fucking arm or leg snapped into two pieces. Most MMA fighters have more heart and balls than a lot of the boxers I know. They go out of their way to perform for the fans and are willing to gladly go out on their shields...which is more than can be said for the likes of Klitschko or any other boxer you see in the ring fighting with a "safety first" mentality. What Ortiz did and said should NEVER be compared to a mixed martial artist tapping out. Stitch Duran, who's worked with and along side more boxers and mixed martial artists than anyone in the world, will be the first to tell you that mixed martial artists in general are bigger warriors than boxers.

Overcoming adversity is one thing, but allowing a guy to break your fucking arm is idiotic and if you've competed in combat sports as you say, you should understand that.
happygocampy
Mosley did look pissed, but from what i could hear it sounded more like coaching than ass chewing. Oscar had that angry sad look, the one where someone just shot your dog, and there was nothin you could do about it.
Spyder
QUOTE (snoopnick @ Jun 28 2009, 09:09 PM) *
Well I think this is very much on topic, unless you're talking about how pissed Mosley was after the fight, which none of your previous post addressed. I also think your analogy with your job is unfair. Would you stop directing a show or leave the control room if continuing meant potentially costing your life or causing permanent damage? Don't get me wrong, the demands of boxing/MMA are worlds apart from the demands of TV production, but I don't think sacrificing your life is a requirement of either.

Now in this case of Ortiz, I think your viewpoints are valid. He was still very much in the fight and hadn't taken that much damaged up until the point he quit. He could have very well won had he pushed through. I just don't think it should suddenly be generalized to a "I don't understand that mentality of never quitting in any case of MMA/Boxing" because one guy folded under pressure.

No, the obvious risk of personal injury is not one that I take to get a paycheck, but that was my choice. Choosing to fight as a profession is done with the expressed knowledge that you WILL get hurt. They knew that shit on day one when they walked into the gym. It is no secret that boxing is a tough and potentially deadly sport. But the fighters are paid accordingly to take that risk...it is part of their job description.

Thank everyone involved for reducing that risk, but it is still very present.

QUOTE (thehype @ Jun 28 2009, 10:59 PM) *
That's a dumb ass statement obviously made by someone who's never been put in a submission hold.

They don't tap out because they have a "live to fight another day" mentality...they tap out because they don't want their fucking arm or leg snapped into two pieces. Most MMA fighters have more heart and balls than a lot of the boxers I know. They go out of their way to perform for the fans and are willing to gladly go out on their shields...which is more than can be said for the likes of Klitschko or any other boxer you see in the ring fighting with a "safety first" mentality. What Ortiz did and said should NEVER be compared to a mixed martial artist tapping out. Stitch Duran, who's worked with and along side more boxers and mixed martial artists than anyone in the world, will be the first to tell you that mixed martial artists in general are bigger warriors than boxers.

Overcoming adversity is one thing, but allowing a guy to break your fucking arm is idiotic and if you've competed in combat sports as you say, you should understand that.

Never been put in a submission hold...lol

I grew up trying to emulate Ric Flair doing figure four leg locks and Bret Hart's Boston Crab...haha...come on dude. That is the same angle that snooppick tried to take. For some reason I'm forced to provide my own personal experience, otherwise my points are invalid? BS

The point is that Ortiz had the same look on his face, and the same attitude that MMA fighters have after a tap..."Big deal I lost. I'll come back. He caught me with a rear naked choke. Life will go on." Shiiiiit. Losing is not supposed to be a ho-hum experience. Losing is supposed to suck! Yet, a lot of these guys will lose a fight, and then go out partying like nothing happened. At some point, losing became acceptable...so much so, that they'll quit halfway through a fight. I can't respect that, and I certainly don't want for pay for that.

Whether you're a fighter, a writer, a director, or a web designer...quiting when the shit gets tough is a loser's mentality.
thehype
QUOTE (Spyder @ Jun 29 2009, 12:35 AM) *
The point is that Ortiz had the same look on his face, and the same attitude that MMA fighters have after a tap..."Big deal I lost. I'll come back. He caught me with a rear naked choke. Life will go on." Shiiiiit. Losing is not supposed to be a ho-hum experience. Losing is supposed to suck! Yet, a lot of these guys will lose a fight, and then go out partying like nothing happened. At some point, losing became acceptable...so much so, that they'll quit halfway through a fight. I can't respect that, and I certainly don't want for pay for that.

Whether you're a fighter, a writer, a director, or a web designer...quiting when the shit gets tough is a loser's mentality.


I can accept that statement, but again, I don't think the mentality of a mixed martial artist should be compared to what Ortiz did. I can understand if they quit in the middle of the fight, but when you get put into a submission, it's a totally different story...there's really nothing you can do about it once it's sunk in so their only option is to tap...simple as that.

As far the way they act after the fight, I think most of them are happy to have put on a great performance, whether they win, lose, tap or get knocked the fuck out. Take Wanderlei Silva for example...he's lost like 4 out of his last 5 fights and in 3 of those, he was totally knocked the fuck out, but after every fight, he smiles from ear to ear and tells the fans how much he appreciates them and hopes he gave them a great performance. Now, in none of those fights did he ever quit and give up...he gave it his all and got knocked the fuck out in the process. Does that mean he's happy that he lost? Of course not, but he was happy to have given the fans a great show. In my opinion, that's just the opposite of what Ortiz did. Ortiz decided to pack it in when he ate some shots that he felt might cause some serious damage down the road...he quit and was happy to admit he quit because he felt that he didn't deserve to take that kind of beating. That's the opposite of what just about every MMA fighter is about. It is EXTREMELY rare to see a mixed martial artist just quit halfway throught a fight. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it doesn't happen from time to time, but I see it way more in boxing (i.e. Ortiz, Judah, Guerrero, Francisco Lorenzo, Rahman, Sam Peter, etc.) than I see it in MMA.

There are far more boxers who just show up and collect their check than their are mixed martial artists.
torvix2000
QUOTE (thehype @ Jun 29 2009, 05:18 AM) *
I can accept that statement, but again, I don't think the mentality of a mixed martial artist should be compared to what Ortiz did. I can understand if they quit in the middle of the fight, but when you get put into a submission, it's a totally different story...there's really nothing you can do about it once it's sunk in so their only option is to tap...simple as that.


People don't understand how to be in the verge of getting their spine broken.
Spyder
QUOTE (thehype @ Jun 29 2009, 01:18 AM) *
As far the way they act after the fight, I think most of them are happy to have put on a great performance, whether they win, lose, tap or get knocked the fuck out. Take Wanderlei Silva for example...he's lost like 4 out of his last 5 fights and in 3 of those, he was totally knocked the fuck out, but after every fight, he smiles from ear to ear and tells the fans how much he appreciates them and hopes he gave them a great performance. Now, in none of those fights did he ever quit and give up...he gave it his all and got knocked the fuck out in the process. Does that mean he's happy that he lost? Of course not, but he was happy to have given the fans a great show.

That's exactly what I don't understand.

You train a lifetime learning a craft, bust your ass perfecting it and getting in shape to fight...and then when the fight is over and you LOST, you're happy that you gave it the old college try? Fuck that! All of that work was to win the fight, not to be happy that, "Well I tried."

This reminds me of a great speech by one of the best coaches to ever walk the sidelines. It more concisely expresses everything that I feel is missing from the Wanderlei Silva's and Victor Ortiz's of the sporting world...and it's fittingly titled - What it takes to be a Champion.



QUOTE
What It Takes To Be A Champion - Vince Lombardi

Winning is not a sometimes thing; it's an all the time thing. You don't win once in a while; you don't do things right once in a while; you do them right all the time. Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing.

There is no room for second place. There is only one place in my game, and that's first place. I have finished second twice in my time at Green Bay, and I don't ever want to finish second again. There is a second place bowl game, but it is a game for losers played by losers. It is and always has been an Amercian zeal to be first in anything we do, and to win, and to win, and to win.

Every time a football player goes to ply his trade he's got to play from the ground up - from the soles of his feet right up to his head. Every inch of him has to play. Some guys play with there heads. That's OK. you've got to be smart to be number one in any business. But more importantly, you've got to play with your heart, with every fiber of your body. If you're lucky enough to find a guy with lot of head and lot of heart, he is never going to come off the field second.

Running a football team is no differen than running any kind of organization - an army, a political party or a business. The principles are the same. The object is to win - to beat the other guy. Maybe that sound hard or cruel. I don't think it is.

It is a reality of life that men are competitive and the most competitive games draw the most competitive men. That's why they are there - to compete. To know the rules and objectives when they get in the game. The object is to win fairly, squarely, by the rules - but to win.

And in truth, I've never known a man worth his salt who in the long run, deep down in his heart, didn't appreciate the grind, the dicipline. There is something in good men that really yearns for discipline and the harsh reality of head to head combat.

I don't say these thngs because I beleive in the "brute" nature of man or that men must be brutalized to be combative. I believe in God, and I believe in human decency. But I firmly believe that any man's finest hour - his greatest fulfillment to all he holds dear - is that moment when he has to work his heart out in a good cause and he's exhausted on teh field of battle - Victorious!!
Keith
You could also say that a profesional should act "right" whether they win or lose. What would you have Silva do? Stomp around and curse about how it sucks to lose. Acting like a 5 year old would prove what to you? In any sporting contest, at least 50% of the contestants lose. I find absolutely nothing wrong with acting like a profesional and finding the value in competing at your highest possible level.
kidbazooka1
QUOTE (Spyder @ Jun 29 2009, 11:25 AM) *
That's exactly what I don't understand.

You train a lifetime learning a craft, bust your ass perfecting it and getting in shape to fight...and then when the fight is over and you LOST, you're happy that you gave it the old college try? Fuck that! All of that work was to win the fight, not to be happy that, "Well I tried."

This reminds me of a great speech by one of the best coaches to ever walk the sidelines. It more concisely expresses everything that I feel is missing from the Wanderlei Silva's and Victor Ortiz's of the sporting world...and it's fittingly titled - What it takes to be a Champion.


The current version of Silva is not a prime Wanderlie he is now a shell of his former self. A prime Silva was as competitive as they came and if you watcg Silva during his early pride days you'll see he destroyed not just beat the likes of Sakuraba 3x who was a beast at the time, Henderson who was undeafeated, Rampage twice, Arona, and almost everyone who watched the first Crop Cop and Hunt fight know Silva won those fights. He also enjoyed one of the longest title reigns as Pride Middleweight champ.

Silva is no longer the fighter he once was he is now content with just being there thats what war after war and 14 years in the game would do to you but in his day he was f*cking monster.
Method
QUOTE
he quit and was happy to admit he quit because he felt that he didn't deserve to take that kind of beating


It's the "I don't deserve to take that kind of beating" thing that I have the most problem with. What the fuck does 'deserve' have to do with anything?
Douchebag
QUOTE (Method @ Jun 29 2009, 03:54 PM) *
It's the "I don't deserve to take that kind of beating" thing that I have the most problem with. What the fuck does 'deserve' have to do with anything?



I just chalk that up to him having a moment of weakness. If he said that at 32 vs 22 I would weigh it differently.
Spyder
QUOTE (keith @ Jun 29 2009, 12:43 PM) *
You could also say that a profesional should act "right" whether they win or lose. What would you have Silva do? Stomp around and curse about how it sucks to lose. Acting like a 5 year old would prove what to you? In any sporting contest, at least 50% of the contestants lose. I find absolutely nothing wrong with acting like a profesional and finding the value in competing at your highest possible level.

Acting like a professional, and accepting being a loser are two different things. You don't have to stomp around and curse to show disdain for losing...

QUOTE (The Conscience @ Jun 29 2009, 04:05 PM) *
I just chalk that up to him having a moment of weakness. If he said that at 32 vs 22 I would weigh it differently.


And that could very much be it. At 22, I wasn't 100% sure of the career path that I chose either.

Hell, Ortiz has probably been boxing his whole life. He went from fighting in the amateurs, to losing in the Olympic trials, to fighting professionals. I doubt he even sat down to think about his future endeavors. Saturday night was a definite wake-up call that he might want to find another way to make a buck.
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