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Full Version: What's worse when losing: quitting or going out on your shield
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du365
If a fighter is being outclass to the point that he can't win and he's getting BANGED....what would you as a fan or trainer have him do.....quit and live to fight another day or give the fans that pay to see you a climatic conclusion and go out on your shield?
Keith
Depends on how you quit. Cotto didnt quit as much as he submitted to Margarito. He was still trying to win and just had nothing left. Boxing and mma are obviously different forms of combat but does anyone fault an mma fighter for tapping when you get caught in a submission hold?
JonnyBlaze
Well going out on your shield is the better way to lose but is a lot less safe for the boxer..Fans would rather a guy go out on a shield..
Byrd Man
Unfortunately I think many fans would rather see a fighter die in the ring, or suffer irreparable harm than "quit". I always was amazed at the angry lashing out against fighters who say "look, I'm getting the shit kicked out of me, I'm INJURED (whether ribs or whatever) and I'm gonna be realistic here". Talk about how they're pussies, and they got no heart and whatever.

But then you see instances of a fighter going on too long and getting brain damage or dying, and those same people are all sad and talking about how tragic it is.

Slightly hypocritical in my opinion.
Keith
Its different when the fighter has something left to give and just quits in whatever manner presents itself. Sometimes fighters are just too tough for their own good. If a fighter is worn out and can no longer defend themselves in the ring I have absolutely no problem with them quiting, but I think a better word would be submitting.
HaydelHammer
well as a trainer, you would know your fighter hopefully to understand what kinda "go get it" in him...(depending on how long you've been with him)

you would know if he's the type that would rather go all out then shut it down. Not everyone (fighter) is wired the same imo.

Cotto imo what happened there ..he's a guy that would go out on his shield but you could tell in his mind he was like "nah man this sh*t just aint right...something is just not right" he looked over and his corner read his mind basically. Some would say he quit (and i'm no cotto fan) I just felt he knew something wasn't right in his mind. Just didn't make sense.

Margarito basically said fk it against shane..i'm going all out after they (corner) wanted to shut it down.

In both cases each fighter mentally was not damaged imo.

this is why i have so much respect for shane mosley. no matter what.... if he gets out gunned or whatever....he always in his mind thinks he can land that shot and turn the tide all the way to the end no matter what you bring to him and his father never once considered stopping any fight..even the first forrest match after he got head butted then dropped and was out on his feet the rest of that round.

you have to have that bond with your fighter imo.




Byrd Man
QUOTE (keith @ Jun 28 2009, 02:11 PM) *
Its different when the fighter has something left to give and just quits in whatever manner presents itself. Sometimes fighters are just too tough for their own good. If a fighter is worn out and can no longer defend themselves in the ring I have absolutely no problem with them quiting, but I think a better word would be submitting.


Yet who are WE, the armchair critics, to decide when someone has had enough or when they still could go on? The only person that truly knows what they have left, is the fighter.

Keith
QUOTE (Byrd Man @ Jun 28 2009, 08:25 PM) *
Yet who are WE, the armchair critics, to decide when someone has had enough or when they still could go on? The only person that truly knows what they have left, is the fighter.

I understand what you are saying but... Andrew Golota? He just quit against Tyson. He wasnt hurt. I think its fair to say he quit. He is certianly allowed to quit whenever he wants, but he took his money and ran. We as the consumer are not allowed to quit and ask for our money back.
gbh32001
In an amateur bout, quitting means you shown enough but fell short is a gentleman's way of surrender. In pro boxing, hell!what the heck you're there if you are not ready to die?When you are fighting against the best of the world and every boxer's represent his own country/family/people/friends/fans, to live and die in the ring is the sweetest price a boxer can achieve. Burn the quitters!
King Eugene
QUOTE (JonnyBlaze @ Jun 28 2009, 03:57 PM) *
Well going out on your shield is the better way to lose but is a lot less safe for the boxer..Fans would rather a guy go out on a shield..

Like Holyfield vs. Bowe III
laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (keith @ Jun 29 2009, 02:09 AM) *
I understand what you are saying but... Andrew Golota? He just quit against Tyson. He wasnt hurt. I think its fair to say he quit. He is certianly allowed to quit whenever he wants, but he took his money and ran. We as the consumer are not allowed to quit and ask for our money back.


A fractured orbital socket is enough to make most people quit especially getting punched on it by a powerful puncher like Tyson. Just because you cannot see the injury does not mean it does not exist. I think Golota got lambasted for quitting again last year when he had a broken arm.
Keith
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Jun 29 2009, 09:03 PM) *
A fractured orbital socket is enough to make most people quit especially getting punched on it by a powerful puncher like Tyson. Just because you cannot see the injury does not mean it does not exist. I think Golota got lambasted for quitting again last year when he had a broken arm.

Hey I just looked it up and you are right. I didnt remember that being reported after that fight. I agree with you and it was a poor example. Thanks for the info.
Big Slim Sweet
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Jun 29 2009, 08:03 PM) *
A fractured orbital socket is enough to make most people quit especially getting punched on it by a powerful puncher like Tyson. Just because you cannot see the injury does not mean it does not exist. I think Golota got lambasted for quitting again last year when he had a broken arm.

I'm not sure that fractured orbital socket was ever confirmed or if it was just something Golota's wife said as a cover.

Either way running out of the ring the way he did was an absolute disgrace.

I agree with Fitz, there are cases where enough is enough, the fighter knows he's in over his head on this particular night, has already taken a lot of punishment and doesn't have a realistic chance of pulling out the win. None of this was the case with Ortiz. He'd taken some shots but it was clear that physically he was still very much in the fight. He just didn't want to deal with the pain. That's fine for the average guy on the street but not for a guy who fights professionally for a living.

I don't want to see every fighter come into the ring ready to die. But I would like to see every fighter give a complete effort.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (Big Slim @ Jun 30 2009, 04:46 PM) *
I'm not sure that fractured orbital socket was ever confirmed or if it was just something Golota's wife said as a cover.

Either way running out of the ring the way he did was an absolute disgrace.


It was confirmed to my satisfaction that he had a fracture in training & it had not sufficiently healed & Tyson rebroke it during the fight.

QUOTE (Fitz @ Jul 1 2009, 07:17 AM) *
That's the bottom line for me. Like Tszyu as well for example against Hatton. He tried his best, he was against all odds, old and one round left. It was a physically gruelling and dirty fight, and had enough. I think that's different from quitting at the first sign of being pushed.


Tszyu was starting to take some very heavy leather & along with a dirty referee Lewis had no choice but to step in & call it off. That is one instance hwere those 3 minutes could have changed Tszyu's life for the worse.
BGv2.0
I'm curious as to how people feel about Alexis Arguello in relation to "quiting"?

Will many show him the same level of distain considering he pretty well quit on life...... dntknw.gif
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (BGv2.0 @ Jul 1 2009, 09:00 PM) *
I'm curious as to how people feel about Alexis Arguello in relation to "quiting"?

Will many show him the same level of distain considering he pretty well quit on life...... dntknw.gif


Being a person who has been suicidal before it is not "quitting" it is not seeing a way out combined with being very sick leads to poor decision making & judgment.
Big Slim Sweet
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Jul 1 2009, 03:31 AM) *
It was confirmed to my satisfaction that he had a fracture in training & it had not sufficiently healed & Tyson rebroke it during the fight.

Maybe so. Either way running out of the ring the way he did was still the worst of his many public humiliations.


QUOTE (BGv2.0 @ Jul 1 2009, 03:00 PM) *
I'm curious as to how people feel about Alexis Arguello in relation to "quiting"?

Will many show him the same level of distain considering he pretty well quit on life...... dntknw.gif

No. Quitting on life is not the same thing as quitting in a fight. No one chooses to be born.
Spyder
QUOTE (Big Slim @ Jul 2 2009, 12:26 PM) *
No. Quitting on life is not the same thing as quitting in a fight. No one chooses to be born.

nea.gif

It's too late to give an opinion on the matter...your ass is already here! You can only deal with what's in front of you at the moment. Now when shit gets rough...do you fight your way through it, or do you throw in the towel?

A lot can be said about a person by answering that question.
BGv2.0
QUOTE (Spyder @ Jul 2 2009, 11:46 AM) *
You can only deal with what's in front of you at the moment. Now when shit gets rough...do you fight your way through it, or do you throw in the towel?

A lot can be said about a person by answering that question.



EXACTLY! So I really don't see how it is not "quitting".

You see people with F'N cancer fight to stay alive until the bitter end......and then others just give up.

Is it the exact same as quitting in a professional boxing match.....no......BUT it is the same principal.

And since SO MANY on this board are quick to bash Ortiz for "quitting"....I'm just curious if they feel the same way about this situation....because in principal it's pretty well the same.
Big Slim Sweet
I don't feel the same way about the situation and I don't feel in principal they are pretty well the same. Not at all.

And I don't feel like explaining my feelings either. Sorry.
BGv2.0
QUOTE (Big Slim @ Jul 2 2009, 03:39 PM) *
I don't feel the same way about the situation and I don't feel in principal they are pretty well the same. Not at all.

And I don't feel like explaining my feelings either. Sorry.



Sure they are.


If a man quits in the ring because he cannot figure out a solution to his opponent or he feels he has suffered enough...he quits.

Suicide is very much that same prinicipal except the "ring" in that senerio is actually life and the fight is every day living.

I'm not trying to get into some huge moral debate on suicide....I just don't comprehend why one guy is looked down upon while the other is praised....IMHO Arguello lost the much bigger more important fight.....and he did so by saying "no mas".

rusty_trombone
yeah, i don't think giving up in a prizefight is equivalent to giving up on life. shit, quitting in a prize fight is like quitting a job, who hasn't done that before? Ortiz got paid to fight, he decided he didn't want to. As a promoter, I just wouldn't hire him again.
rusty_trombone
QUOTE (BGv2.0 @ Jul 2 2009, 05:21 PM) *
Sure they are.


If a man quits in the ring because he cannot figure out a solution to his opponent or he feels he has suffered enough...he quits.

Suicide is very much that same prinicipal except the "ring" in that senerio is actually life and the fight is every day living.

I'm not trying to get into some huge moral debate on suicide....I just don't comprehend why one guy is looked down upon while the other is praised....IMHO Arguello lost the much bigger more important fight.....and he did so by saying "no mas".

"In principal" they might be the same thing, but fo you t not take into account varying degrees or levels of importance, and the factors that go into each decision, they are starkly different. Yes, both are decisions to give up, but that's pretty much where the similarities end. God, I am glad you are not a judge, because you would be a shitty one.
JD
If someone takes their life, they are obviously ill. It is human nature to fight to survive - to reach the point where you can actually pull the trigger and take your life, which goes against EVERYTHING human, you have to be horribly ill.


There is no parallel to quitting in a boxing match.

This is ridiculous.
BGv2.0
QUOTE (JD @ Jul 2 2009, 06:26 PM) *
If someone takes their life, they are obviously ill. It is human nature to fight to survive - to reach the point where you can actually pull the trigger and take your life, which goes against EVERYTHING human, you have to be horribly ill.


There is no parallel to quitting in a boxing match.

This is ridiculous.


Ill.....or stealing other people's money?

In that case...being gay would make you "ill" too if you apply what you are saying to the situation.

And I myself don't think that taking your own life goes against EVERYTHING "human". Take for example the people that are terminal in extreme pain and know with 100% certainty they are going to die.....it's actually rational to take yourself out if you so choose.

It just seems to me like people that bash a kid for giving up in a fight yet somehow honor Arguello have a somewhat contradictory mind set in relation to "giving up"......one is awful...yet the other is sad and merits positive reflection on the person....

I myself don't take issue with either guy as one quit a fight for his own safety concerns and the other quit life for what ever reasons....it's their own choice....I just do not get the rational on the issue of "giving up" in relation to these situations....which I don't care what anybody says can very much be compared.

STEVENSKI
I can say with total honesty that I have never considered suicide from physical pain but have many times when depressed & in emotional pain.
Big Slim Sweet
Like Rusty said, if you're going to equate suicide to quitting in a fight, then what about people who quit their jobs, something the vast majority of us have done at one time or another? What about divorce, where one or both parties basically quit on their marriage? Or a student who drops a class? Or when you decide to give a new TV show a chance and then after a few minutes get bored and turn it off? Life is filled with choices. Suicide I suppose, at that final fateful moment, is a choice. I'm sure nearly every person who has ever committed suicide had thought of doing it before and chose not to. But everything that goes into that decision are totally and completely different.
Spyder
Someone give STEVENSKI a hug.

We all like you Steve. friends.gif
rusty_trombone
QUOTE (BGv2.0 @ Jul 3 2009, 02:50 AM) *
I myself don't take issue with either guy as one quit a fight for his own safety concerns and the other quit life for what ever reasons....it's their own choice....I just do not get the rational on the issue of "giving up" in relation to these situations....which I don't care what anybody says can very much be compared.

Here's a simple exercise, on a piece of paper write down all of the reasons one would quit in a prizefight, then list the reasons(excluding terminal illness, since that's not really suicide if you are already terminal) then see how they match up. thank god i don't live in texas, is this the prevalent thinking there?
BGv2.0
QUOTE (Fitz @ Jul 3 2009, 04:49 AM) *
I'm with Slim on this one. They are different. Sure you can say that a guy that kills himself quit. That's fair enough, but to suggest they are the same is ridiculous.



Not one time have I said they are one in the same. I said they are the same in PRINCIPAL.....which is nowhere near saying that the two situations are exactly the same.

You yourself as did Rusty even admitted as much by saying:

"Sure you can say that a guy that kills himself quit. That's fair enough"


""In principal" they might be the same thing. Yes, both are decisions to give up"


So I find it hard to believe that some on this board cannot see how they can be compared when everyone knows that when comparing them in principal....they are on the same level.

I just think trying to set them apart is an easy out in regard to contradictory thinking.
rusty_trombone
QUOTE (BGv2.0 @ Jul 3 2009, 01:16 PM) *
"Sure you can say that a guy that kills himself quit. That's fair enough"


""In principal" they might be the same thing. Yes, both are decisions to give up"

yes, but then i went on to say "that is where the comparison ends." Incomparable in scope, incomparable in factors, incomparable in result, in comparable except a basically semantical comparison. The comparison ends at "hello." Each decision is starkly different from the point of departure
Warlord
Quitting is good for the long-term health, and poor for the long-term resepect. (see Duran)

Going out on your shield is bad for your long-term health (and possibly career), but great for the respect it nets you. (see Vargas/Trinidad)

It's a question of what you find harder to live with; trauma induced parkinsons or lack of respect and/or possibly self-respect. I lean towards going out on your shield as the way to go.

Everyone wants to be Katsumoto when they watch The Last Samurai, charging those howlitzers head on at full speed, or Sonny from The Godfather, going out in machine gun fire glory shortly after beating up his brother-in-law with a trash can lid.

No one watches Tombstone and says "I want to be Ike Clanton when I grow up." Groveling at Wyatt Earp's knees during the gunfight at the O.K. Corral, begging for his life and shit.
torvix2000
You've gotta think like Mayweatha and you'd never be in a position between life and death.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (Spyder @ Jul 3 2009, 01:54 PM) *
Someone give STEVENSKI a hug.

We all like you Steve. friends.gif


LOL it's all good but I have had times in my life when dealing with addiction where it became a realistic & viable option. Thank fuck I never did though as life is pretty good these days.
AussieLad
QUOTE (Warlord @ Jul 4 2009, 05:29 AM) *
No one watches Tombstone and says "I want to be Ike Clanton when I grow up." Groveling at Wyatt Earp's knees during the gunfight at the O.K. Corral, begging for his life and shit.


To which i would reply "dead men fuck no bitches"

LOL
Keith
Lets not glorify getting shot at. They are movies made to entertain you. There is absolutely nothing entertaining when those rounds are actually coming down range at you. None. I would much rather live the boring life with my 9 to 5. I prefer Yoda's wisdom:

Luke "I'm looking for a great warrior."
Yoda "Ah! A great warrior. Ha ha ha ... Wars not make one great."
rusty_trombone
QUOTE (Warlord @ Jul 4 2009, 12:29 AM) *
or Sonny from The Godfather, going out in machine gun fire glory shortly after beating up his brother-in-law with a trash can lid.

Actually Sonny was on his way to kick his brother in laws ass.
Warlord
QUOTE (AussieLad @ Jul 4 2009, 06:56 AM) *
To which i would reply "dead men fuck no bitches"

LOL


To which I would respond, "neither do limp dick cowards."
Warlord
QUOTE (rusty_trombone @ Jul 4 2009, 09:55 AM) *
Actually Sonny was on his way to kick his brother in laws ass.

You are correct, Sonny was on his way to kick his brother-in-law's ass... again. He'd already done it earlier in the film. With a trash can lid.
Spyder
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Jul 4 2009, 06:35 AM) *
LOL it's all good but I have had times in my life when dealing with addiction where it became a realistic & viable option. Thank fuck I never did though as life is pretty good these days.

Good.

Just don't off yourself...you make a lot of us laugh, and that shit would not be funny.
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