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JonnyBlaze
This video is bad ass and the song is dope too(especially the beat)..What do ya all think??The best heavyweight ever!!!



Box in Hand
QUOTE (JonnyBlaze @ Jul 30 2009, 09:01 PM) *
This video is bad ass and the song is dope too(especially the beat)..What do ya all think??The best heavyweight ever!!!




Great video and song (Big Pun is the rapper). I got Joe as number 2 with Ali at #1 however.
Romulus9
The song blows and Louis was not the best heavyweight of all-time.

The video was great.
D-MARV
Knockout at :52 was sick. Louis certainly has is arguement at being the greatest.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE (damarvelous1 @ Jul 30 2009, 10:48 PM) *
Knockout at :52 was sick. Louis certainly has is arguement at being the greatest.

That was the first Buddy Baer fight..In the second fight,he broke Buddy's ankle with one right hand..

I don't think Ali would of handled those right hands..25 title defenses and never lost the heavyweight title,he retired for the first time and gave up the belt..What he does to Jersey Joe in the second fight(3:00) is seriously insane..I don't think any heavyweight ever would of taken that combo and been able to stand up..That is murderous shit..You can see the force in those right hands like I've never seen before..Not saying they are the hardest punches ever but watching his perfect technique,he hit Jersey Joe with every lb. in his body..What heavyweight today can put every lb. into their punch like Joe did??The right hand to Galento at .25 is another perfect example..Galento was about 35 lbs heavier than him too..Buddy Baer was almost 50 lbs heavier than him..
King Eugene
Anybody watch the Joe Louis documentary on HBO on Demand? Not to sound racist but those white folks straight sonned Joe! No taking pictures alone with white women...WTF? Whats even funnier, his BLACK trainer didn't want to train him cause he was BLACK!!! Damn.

On another note, I see why white folks hated Jack Johnson...he was one cocky Mofo. LOL Floyd could be considered as a modern day Jack Johnson minus the white girls. Hell I didn't know Johnson rocked a gold grill. Hell I didn't even know they made gold grills then. That shit was hilarious and interesting at the same time.
STEVENSKI
Only my opinion but Joe was the greatest heavyweight to lace up a glove. Jon is right Joe had perfect punching technique. His only real flaw (if you consider it one) was he would only punch in his "zone". That way he never wasted a punch but a slick fighter with lateral movement could cause him trouble ALA Conn.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Jul 31 2009, 03:27 AM) *
Only my opinion but Joe was the greatest heavyweight to lace up a glove. Jon is right Joe had perfect punching technique. His only real flaw (if you consider it one) was he would only punch in his "zone". That way he never wasted a punch but a slick fighter with lateral movement could cause him trouble ALA Conn.

Joe Louis was so methodical and precise with his punches,I wouldn't be able to say him punching in his "zone" is bad..He could knock you out moving forward,backwards,and around you..His footwork gave him really good balance while punching..Conn was an amazing boxer so I don't want to downplay his performance or Joe lack of performance in the first fight..Joe showed Billy what was up in the second fight though..

Definitely debatable stuff Steve..
STEVENSKI
I mean if he had you in range he would punch if you kept him turning & used the jab & lateral movement so he could never get set you could beat him as he would not punch. That said no one could do that for 15 rounds could they?

That said Mike Tyson beats him 10 out of 10 times as he is too skilled & explosive combined with his two beat head movement Joe would not last more than a round or two.
lloyd mayflower
Impressive stuff, the one thing all those victims had in common was they all went down like Joe had actually punched the soul right out of them. I like.

Think i have to agree with u about Tyson Steve, having just watched Tyson the movie lastnight. I think if i go a while without watchin him i forget how fucking vicious he was. When hes talking about how he wanted to annihilate Berbick because he was in so much pain from his recently caught gonnorhea! Class!! I dont think anyone could have lived with him in his prime.

Maybe some of todays heavyweights should go fuck some skanky bitches. Might put some fire in their belly/bell-end!
STEVENSKI
Sorry Lloyd I was just riling up Jon. Tyson was not all that but he was made out to be a hell of a lot more than he was.
Keith
Young spry Tyson would of given any HW problems. When Cus and Rooney had him straight and focused Tyson was absolutely sick.
lloyd mayflower
Well i guess its just coincidence that this came up after i watched that film, maybe i just have my Tyson head on at the minute but seriously, i dont give fuck who u are, u would have to be superhuman to stand up to that angry young man before he went off the rails
JLUVBABY
i think larry holmes could very easily be the greatest heavy of all times... i know most wont agree but he is a very highly under rated heavyweight champ... in his prime i think he matches up with any other all time great... descent puncher, he could take a punch, one of the best if not the best jab in the division history... he had heart and excellent ring generalship... not to mention he had longevity in his career and gave a prime holyfield a few fits in his title bid and argubly beat olivar mccall in their fight for a portion of the title... if you dont rank him number 1 he has to be very highly ranked.. at least thats my opinion...
Romulus9
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Jul 31 2009, 11:05 PM) *
i think larry holmes could very easily be the greatest heavy of all times... i know most wont agree but he is a very highly under rated heavyweight champ... in his prime i think he matches up with any other all time great... descent puncher, he could take a punch, one of the best if not the best jab in the division history... he had heart and excellent ring generalship... not to mention he had longevity in his career and gave a prime holyfield a few fits in his title bid and argubly beat olivar mccall in their fight for a portion of the title... if you dont rank him number 1 he has to be very highly ranked.. at least thats my opinion...



I was reading this post when it first came up and mentioned it to my dad. I said that Louis beat a ton of guys during World War II, fought twice as many fights as people see in the records from back then because of all of the exhibitions for the military guys, but I honestly don't think he's in the top 4 or 5, much less the best heavyweight ever. Against a technician, he would have had big, big trouble and the first guy I mentioned to my dad was Holmes. Louis came straight forward, his defense wasn't exactly impeccable, and when you consider his size, Holmes would have had a field day. Jab, jab, jab, jab, jab, jab, jab, jab, jab, jab, jab, jab, jab, jab, jab, right hand, right hand.... etc. Not the Klitschko "stay off me" jab, a jab that was a weapon! Take the prime Holmes from 1979-82, and you've got a guy who would absolutely hang with anyone EVER, and was just incredibly good in every area. Louis doesn't beat Holmes. In fact, despite the numbers, I don't have Louis in the top 3 or 4 HW champions. Very successful champion, legendary without a doubt, but when you look at matchups and who was the best, he doesn't add up. Guys like Louis and Dempsey and Johnson were good in their time but a true technician would just flat out eat them up. Holmes is at the top of that list for me, and I have him among the top 4 or 5 heavyweight champions of all-time. To each his own, but after watching a ton of Louis fights, and the rest of the greats, I think true technicians would beat Louis and do so in a way that looked like Ezzard Charles' decision over him in 1951.

FWIW, I had Holmes beating McCall 115-113.
The CEO
Easton Assassin fan here...he could beat Ali and Louis head to head...but when you consider overall "Greatness", I have to put him at #3.

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Holmes
Romulus9
What I hate is the fact that he will NEVER get his due because he was the guy after Ali, even though, as young as he was, Holmes would have beaten Ali from any point after the 3rd Frazier fight. Ali was DONE after that fight and it showed. Forget the Ali and Berbick fights. The two fights with Spinks are just sad to watch. Norton beat him in the third fight. He barely got by Shavers and Jimmy Young. Holmes was amazing and is constantly downplayed and overlooked.

That said, I'll take Holmes over Louis. Joe was great but he was also right place at the right time. I think, personally, that the argument can be made for Marciano beating the mid-40s Louis, although clearly not in the same dominant and destructive fashion.

It's odd how things have materialized in the sport. Just look back and see how many heavyweight champions would now be cruiserweights with the 200# limit.
BigG
Louis is my 2nd favorite Heavyweight of all time next to Tyson. I loved the humbleness, quietness, and the brutality of his fights....his beating of Max Baer is still hard to watch lol...
The CEO
QUOTE (Romulus9 @ Jul 31 2009, 11:37 PM) *
What I hate is the fact that he will NEVER get his due because he was the guy after Ali, even though, as young as he was, Holmes would have beaten Ali from any point after the 3rd Frazier fight. Ali was DONE after that fight and it showed. Forget the Ali and Berbick fights. The two fights with Spinks are just sad to watch. Norton beat him in the third fight. He barely got by Shavers and Jimmy Young. Holmes was amazing and is constantly downplayed and overlooked.

That said, I'll take Holmes over Louis. Joe was great but he was also right place at the right time. I think, personally, that the argument can be made for Marciano beating the mid-40s Louis, although clearly not in the same dominant and destructive fashion.

It's odd how things have materialized in the sport. Just look back and see how many heavyweight champions would now be cruiserweights with the 200# limit.


I'm totally with you on this post...

and regarding the bold....it's taken a long time for get his current level of respect among educated fans...and in 20 more years, he'll still not be considered on Ali and Louis' level...even though he should be...

Holmes is 1st tier all the way.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (Romulus9 @ Jul 31 2009, 10:13 PM) *
I was reading this post when it first came up and mentioned it to my dad. I said that Louis beat a ton of guys during World War II, fought twice as many fights as people see in the records from back then because of all of the exhibitions for the military guys, but I honestly don't think he's in the top 4 or 5, much less the best heavyweight ever. Against a technician, he would have had big, big trouble and the first guy I mentioned to my dad was Holmes. Louis came straight forward, his defense wasn't exactly impeccable, and when you consider his size, Holmes would have had a field day. Jab, jab, jab, jab, jab, jab, jab, jab, jab, jab, jab, jab, jab, jab, jab, right hand, right hand.... etc. Not the Klitschko "stay off me" jab, a jab that was a weapon! Take the prime Holmes from 1979-82, and you've got a guy who would absolutely hang with anyone EVER, and was just incredibly good in every area. Louis doesn't beat Holmes. In fact, despite the numbers, I don't have Louis in the top 3 or 4 HW champions. Very successful champion, legendary without a doubt, but when you look at matchups and who was the best, he doesn't add up. Guys like Louis and Dempsey and Johnson were good in their time but a true technician would just flat out eat them up. Holmes is at the top of that list for me, and I have him among the top 4 or 5 heavyweight champions of all-time. To each his own, but after watching a ton of Louis fights, and the rest of the greats, I think true technicians would beat Louis and do so in a way that looked like Ezzard Charles' decision over him in 1951.

FWIW, I had Holmes beating McCall 115-113.


i agree with everything you said except for what you had to say about jack johnson... i personally am a very huge fan of johnson and i have a few of his fights as well.... the way they fought back in those days sometimes 40 plus rounds they where in extreme condition, 12 or 15 rounds for him would be walks in the park... he was a defensive wizard and an offensive beast in those rounds... that was the early rounds for him... he is another fighter that to me gets lost in the p4p rankings.. also and there is no solid proof of this but it is very well known fact that johnson fought exhebitions etc. into the 30's.... but my grand father used to tell me stories of johnson fighting dempsey back in the early 20's in some non sanctioned fights and was the winner in those fights.. again i have no proof of these fights but you might be able to google them i dont know i havent tried but they are at least rumored to have taken place... i've talked to others that have heard of these fights... johnson was just so far ahead of his time in every arena its not even funny... i say all that to say johnson was a defensive fighter where louis and dempsey where offensive machines... i think johnson gives those two fighters hell as well... just a thought... people forget he was a boxer first...
BigG
I'm one of the few who thinks Holmes beats Ali at any point in Ali's career.
Romulus9
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Aug 1 2009, 12:13 AM) *
i agree with everything you said except for what you had to say about jack johnson... i personally am a very huge fan of johnson and i have a few of his fights as well.... the way they fought back in those days sometimes 40 plus rounds they where in extreme condition, 12 or 15 rounds for him would be walks in the park... he was a defensive wizard and an offensive beast in those rounds... that was the early rounds for him... he is another fighter that to me gets lost in the p4p rankings.. also and there is no solid proof of this but it is very well known fact that johnson fought exhebitions etc. into the 30's.... but my grand father used to tell me stories of johnson fighting dempsey back in the early 20's in some non sanctioned fights and was the winner in those fights.. again i have no proof of these fights but you might be able to google them i dont know i havent tried but they are at least rumored to have taken place... i've talked to others that have heard of these fights... johnson was just so far ahead of his time in every arena its not even funny... i say all that to say johnson was a defensive fighter where louis and dempsey where offensive machines... i think johnson gives those two fighters hell as well... just a thought... people forget he was a boxer first...



I'll hit a couple of those points.

First of all, I have a great deal of respect for Johnson, not only for what he did as a fighter but for what he did considering the BS he put up with as a result. Won and lost his title outside of American soil despite being an American champion, the hatred, the bias, the conditions, everything. I don't think any of the casual fans, and perhaps some of the dedicated fans, truly understand boxing of that era. People talk about 15 rounders, which I do wish were still around, but think about the fact that Johnson lost his title to Willard on a knockout in round 26! That's insane. Not only in the 26th round, but in blazing heat, outside in the middle of Cuba, without a canopy or anything covering the ring. That's amazing.

Johnson was ahead of his time defensively but I would stop short of calling him a defensive wizard. What he was able to do defensively was better than ANYONE he fought in his prime but were magnified because most of the guys then had defense that is just pathetic by modern standards. Good over poor stood out, but it wasn't great. I absolutely believe a technical modern fighter would have taken him apart and the same with Louis and Dempsey. It's just like trying to put Texas Tech or Florida on the field with a modern offense against a college team from the 40s or 50s. It's the same game but it's an evolution of that game.

There has been plenty of talk regarding Dempsey and Johnson 'unsanctioned' bouts from back then but I don't know how much credence there is to it. Honestly, I doubt anyone will ever truly know. Too much time has passed. It's like trying to prove that John Wilkes Booth was part of a larger conspiracy to kill Lincoln. It might be true, it might not be true, but you're just not going to get an answer.

Based on physical tools and size and the like, I agree that Johnson could have stood right in there with Joe Louis, but I maintain that Holmes' technical abilities, and those of several other champions, would have handled those guys relatively ease.

It makes for great discussion though!
Romulus9
QUOTE (BigG @ Aug 1 2009, 12:20 AM) *
I'm one of the few who thinks Holmes beats Ali at any point in Ali's career.



BG, I'm with you for the most part. I think the pre-exile Ali vs. a prime Holmes would be an amazing barnburner of a fight, a VERY tough one to call but I'd barely lean toward Holmes. I think prime Holmes vs. any other Ali is a Holmes win without much of a problem.
King Eugene
Speaking of Larry Holmes...remember when he dropped kicked Trevor Berbick. laugh.gif
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Jul 31 2009, 05:29 AM) *
I mean if he had you in range he would punch if you kept him turning & used the jab & lateral movement so he could never get set you could beat him as he would not punch. That said no one could do that for 15 rounds could they?

That said Mike Tyson beats him 10 out of 10 times as he is too skilled & explosive combined with his two beat head movement Joe would not last more than a round or two.

Do you really think that about Tyson Steve??I think you're just playin since we've talked about Tyson before..That said,I don't think anyone could go 15 rounds with Louis..

As for Louis having to be set to punch,when is he not set to punch??His balance allows him to do the same stuff Ray Robinson did,which is punch while moving backwards and stuff like that..Yet,not many were dumb enough to try to come at Joe..I've said it before,watch Joe Louis,then watch Ray Robinson closely..Their styles are almost identical..Joe's jab would be too much for Tyson if you ask me..His jab was punishing then he'd finish you off with a right or left hook..Joe didn't have the best chin ever but he was able to handle big shots..I actually use Joe's and Ray Robinson's footwork when I box..It feels like you're ice skating or something..Watch their feet closely..They don't step,they slide..It keeps you perfectly balanced..It allows you to be set to punch at all times..
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Jul 31 2009, 07:43 AM) *
Sorry Lloyd I was just riling up Jon. Tyson was not all that but he was made out to be a hell of a lot more than he was.

Didn't see there were 3 pages already..hahahahaha..As I said in my last post,you're messin..
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Aug 1 2009, 04:05 AM) *
i think larry holmes could very easily be the greatest heavy of all times... i know most wont agree but he is a very highly under rated heavyweight champ... in his prime i think he matches up with any other all time great... descent puncher, he could take a punch, one of the best if not the best jab in the division history... he had heart and excellent ring generalship... not to mention he had longevity in his career and gave a prime holyfield a few fits in his title bid and argubly beat olivar mccall in their fight for a portion of the title... if you dont rank him number 1 he has to be very highly ranked.. at least thats my opinion...


I think Larry is at the very top echelon of heavyweights. Personally I have him at #3 which is not to say that he could not or would not beat Louis or Clay either.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE (Romulus9 @ Jul 31 2009, 10:13 PM) *
I was reading this post when it first came up and mentioned it to my dad. I said that Louis beat a ton of guys during World War II, fought twice as many fights as people see in the records from back then because of all of the exhibitions for the military guys, but I honestly don't think he's in the top 4 or 5, much less the best heavyweight ever. Against a technician, he would have had big, big trouble and the first guy I mentioned to my dad was Holmes. Louis came straight forward, his defense wasn't exactly impeccable, and when you consider his size, Holmes would have had a field day. Jab, jab, jab, jab, jab, jab, jab, jab, jab, jab, jab, jab, jab, jab, jab, right hand, right hand.... etc. Not the Klitschko "stay off me" jab, a jab that was a weapon! Take the prime Holmes from 1979-82, and you've got a guy who would absolutely hang with anyone EVER, and was just incredibly good in every area. Louis doesn't beat Holmes. In fact, despite the numbers, I don't have Louis in the top 3 or 4 HW champions. Very successful champion, legendary without a doubt, but when you look at matchups and who was the best, he doesn't add up. Guys like Louis and Dempsey and Johnson were good in their time but a true technician would just flat out eat them up. Holmes is at the top of that list for me, and I have him among the top 4 or 5 heavyweight champions of all-time. To each his own, but after watching a ton of Louis fights, and the rest of the greats, I think true technicians would beat Louis and do so in a way that looked like Ezzard Charles' decision over him in 1951.

FWIW, I had Holmes beating McCall 115-113.

You must not watch Joe Louis too closely then to say a true technician would be him since HE WAS a true technician..His technique and footwork was amazing..
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (JonnyBlaze @ Aug 1 2009, 09:37 AM) *
You must not watch Joe Louis too closely then to say a true technician would be him since HE WAS a true technician..His technique and footwork was amazing..


Joe was the best pure technician at heavyweight ever. Others were faster & more unorthadox but if you wanted to point out to a guy & say that is a pure boxer then you would be hard pressed to go past a prime Joe as a example. He did everything right IMO.
BigG
QUOTE (Romulus9 @ Aug 1 2009, 05:31 AM) *
BG, I'm with you for the most part. I think the pre-exile Ali vs. a prime Holmes would be an amazing barnburner of a fight, a VERY tough one to call but I'd barely lean toward Holmes. I think prime Holmes vs. any other Ali is a Holmes win without much of a problem.


I think stylewise Holmes is nightmare for Ali...I dunno I can just see Ali eating Holmes left jab. Holmes was better techincally than Ali and even though Ali had an obvious advantage in speed Holmes was QUICK in his prime as well.
Keith
I see a lot of love for Holmes. I enjoyed him too. For sake of discussion, how about W. Klitschko? He catches a lot of hate for being boring which is absolutely warranted but... how would great HW's of the past deal with him? His size and physical strength would be unmatched. His long ass jab would keep fighters busy and he has enough power to ko with that straight right. Stylistically, I think Holmes would be completely frustrated that he couldnt use his jab the way he did against everyone else. I hate to say it, but W.K gives every hw problems.
STEVENSKI
WK is not even a blip on the radar of greatness IMO. It may only be me but someone like Manassa Jack would expose the chinless wonder badly. WK would not be able to take Jack's heat from the git go.

Sorry but WK may have "it" all but I have never seen him use it. As a matter of fact he does not impres me one bit & he looks better than he is because the heavyweight division is just so damm poor.
Keith
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Aug 1 2009, 09:49 AM) *
WK is not even a blip on the radar of greatness IMO. It may only be me but someone like Manassa Jack would expose the chinless wonder badly. WK would not be able to take Jack's heat from the git go.

Sorry but WK may have "it" all but I have never seen him use it. As a matter of fact he does not impres me one bit & he looks better than he is because the heavyweight division is just so damm poor.


I'm not really trying to claim WK is "great". I will claim that he is unique. Imo, WK and Lennox Lewis would give any hw matchup problems because of their size combined with a reasonable amount of skill. Joe Louis beat Buddy Baer twice and he was 6'6" 260. Baer was devoid of any speed, skill, or movement. WK or Lewis are not. How much punishment could Louis take trying to get to his punching zone? Its a fair question imo.

I can absolutely see WK laying a whoopin on guys like Frazier and Marciano and he gives other guys serious problems.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (keith @ Aug 1 2009, 05:06 PM) *
I'm not really trying to claim WK is "great". I will claim that he is unique. Imo, WK and Lennox Lewis would give any hw matchup problems because of their size combined with a reasonable amount of skill. Joe Louis beat Buddy Baer twice and he was 6'6" 260. Baer was devoid of any speed, skill, or movement. WK or Lewis are not. How much punishment could Louis take trying to get to his punching zone? Its a fair question imo.


Not sure how much punishment Louis could take from a WK but I know it would be more than WK could take from Louis.

WK is not unique as he is not the first homosexual world champion but he may be the first to have incest with his brother so I suppose he is unique but then again in Soviet Ukraine maybe sex with your brother is the norm I just don't know.
BigG
Holmes and Wlad are similar in styles except Holmes has 100x more balls, toughness, and heart than Klitschko.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (BigG @ Aug 1 2009, 04:14 PM) *
Holmes and Wlad are similar in styles except Holmes has 100x the balls, toughness, and heart of Klitschko.


& as far as I know he does not engage in sex acts with his brother so that is 2 things that make Holmes different although if Holmes was Gay he could be a Holmesexual like Wlad.
Keith
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Aug 1 2009, 12:10 PM) *
Not sure how much punishment Louis could take from a WK but I know it would be more than WK could take from Louis.

WK is not unique as he is not the first homosexual world champion but he may be the first to have incest with his brother so I suppose he is unique but then again in Soviet Ukraine maybe sex with your brother is the norm I just don't know.


Oh man, I just busted my gut.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Aug 1 2009, 03:48 AM) *
Joe was the best pure technician at heavyweight ever. Others were faster & more unorthadox but if you wanted to point out to a guy & say that is a pure boxer then you would be hard pressed to go past a prime Joe as a example. He did everything right IMO.

This is all 100% right..No one had better technique ever at heavyweight..Like you said though,he wasn't the fastest ever..

As far as what kind of punishment would Joe take from Lennox or WK to get into his punching zone,well closely watch how Joe parries a jab and tell me you don't think he could get into his zone..Marciano actually used the same parry..They would catch the jab and spin the jab out(like making a circle around your face),setting the opponent off balance and open for a shot when fully executed..I think Joe would KO Lennox and Wlad..I really like Lennox and Wlad but their skill level isn't even close to the level of Joe's skill level..

Primo is another example of a big guy that Joe destroyed with ease..Say what ya want about these guys but Joe knew how to handle these guys from using the advice from Blackburn(one of the best trainers ever along side Ray Arcel)..Joe's footwork allowed him to use basically no energy no matter how fast he moved(he was a heavyweight so he didn't need to move fast like Robinson)..Actually his whole style was low energy because he was so relaxed..This was the same with Ray Robinson,even though he had to work harder because of his size..
neophyte7
The pre exile Ali that Demolished Cleveland Williams was unbeatable... Joe Louis would have been KO'd by that version of ALI.. He was KOd by lesser fighters ALI's chin, movement ,size and speed would have been too much for Joe Louis. I see Ali putting on an early 3rd or 4th round stoppage
KookedKrack
even bringing up wk name in this convo imo is a disrespect to the fighters mentioned.......fighters from our era are too worried about bitch shit to even be mentioned with the greats
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