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JLUVBABY
this was a topic i posted a few days ago with an interesting article that i read to go with it... For some reason it was taken off the topic list... i guess one of the admins. felt it was too racial of a topic to post... i actually ended by saying i didn't think he was intentionally avoiding black fighters but making money decisions and also made the point that his biggest money fight right now is against a black fighter in pbf.... any hoot i would like to get you guys take on the topic if it isn't killed again... there are some good fighters in the past that can be argued he avoided or just didn't fight for what ever reason... to name a few was primed Tim Austin and Freddie Norwood... any way i am just interested in you guys opinion on the subject...
Jack 1000
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Aug 1 2009, 03:55 PM) *
this was a topic i posted a few days ago with an interesting article that i read to go with it... For some reason it was taken off the topic list... i guess one of the admins. felt it was too racial of a topic to post... i actually ended by saying i didn't think he was intentionally avoiding black fighters but making money decisions and also made the point that his biggest money fight right now is against a black fighter in pbf.... any hoot i would like to get you guys take on the topic if it isn't killed again... there are some good fighters in the past that can be argued he avoided or just didn't fight for what ever reason... to name a few was primed Tim Austin and Freddie Norwood... any way i am just interested in you guys opinion on the subject...


Hi,

To prevent a flame war with this topic again, we will change the topic title to the following:

"Has Pac ducked certain fighters because of monetary decisions?" A much better choice of topic. And the potential for some better responses as well. By doing this, we won't have to monitor the topic as much. Changing the topic's title to the poster's more positive suggestion will create better responses.

By taking the racial content out of the post's title, we eliminate the potential for a flame war. That way, it stays a good topic with better discussion.

Jack

Administrator
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (Jack 1000 @ Aug 1 2009, 04:11 PM) *
We will allow it for now, but with the topic title as is, we will screen the thread for inappropriate responses. Every time we get a thread like this it almost always turns into a flame war. My recommendation to the original poster would be to please change the title of the thread to something like you suggested above:

"Has Pac ducked certain fighters because of monetary decisions?" A much better choice of topic. And the potential for some better responses as well. If you do this, we won't have to monitor the topic as much. (Be sure to edit the post to reflect the topic change as well.) I would really like to see this topic title changed, because it could be a great topic if it was.

If you don't take the race content out of the post and it becomes a flame issue, we will have to delete it or close it again.

Jack

Administrator


but that takes away from the actual meaning behind the topic.. im of the belief that we are all mature people.. if someone comes in to start a flame war or whatever to me that is means for a ban if it is made ethnical in a negative way... we are all adults or at least old enough to know not to start up such nonscence... if some one doesnt have the tact to carry on such a convo. without resorting to ethnic name calling do they really need to be on the board in YOUR OPINION? this is boxing.. its a very ethnic sport.. its international... the question CAN be very valid...
Jack 1000
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Aug 1 2009, 04:19 PM) *
but that takes away from the actual meaning behind the topic.. I'm of the belief that we are all mature people.. if someone comes in to start a flame war or whatever to me that is means for a ban if it is made ethical in a negative way... we are all adults or at least old enough to know not to start up such nonscence... if some one doesn't have the tact to carry on such a convo. without resorting to ethnic name calling do they really need to be on the board in YOUR OPINION? this is boxing.. its a very ethnic sport.. its international... the question CAN be very valid...


Most of us know enough not to stir up racist and discriminating stuff. The problem is we have had too many good threads ruined by as little as one person on the board who brings that shit into discussion. This has been a problem on the board for the past five-ten years. This same or similar topic was deleted by staff once before, who are very diligent at spotting troubled threads, but also do a great job allowing a pretty non-restrictive environment.

I just don't think its necessary to bring race into a topic title when it is not necessary to do so. And Juluvbaby, your suggestion of what you said you meant to say was a great idea! (About the Monetary Decision thing.) That's very cool and considerate of you, so in changing the title to what you yourself wanted to say, I think we are doing the right thing.

Anyway, to keep the topic on task, let's see what the community has to say about Pacquiao's Monetary Decisions as it relates to certain fighters. I like that thread choice much better.

You can PM me with questions or issues if you are requesting more detail the title change. But right now, let's keep the topic like this.

Jack

Administrator
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (Jack 1000 @ Aug 1 2009, 04:36 PM) *
Most of us know enough not to stir up racist and discriminating stuff. The problem is we have had too many good threads ruined by as little as one person on the board who brings that shit into discussion. This has been a problem on the board for the past five-ten years. This same or similar topic was deleted by staff once before, who are very diligent at spotting troubled threads, but also do a great job allowing a pretty non-restrictive environment.

I just don't think its necessary to bring race into a topic title when it is not necessary to do so. And Juluvbaby, your suggestion of what you said you meant to say was a great idea! (About the Monetary Decision thing.) That's very cool and considerate of you, so in changing the title to what you yourself wanted to say, I think we are doing the right thing.

Anyway, to keep the topic on task, let's see what the community has to say about Pacquiao's Monetary Decisions as it relates to certain fighters. I like that thread choice much better.

You can PM me with questions or issues if you are requesting more detail the title change. But right now, let's keep the topic like this.

Jack

Administrator



as far as im concerned you can kill the topic again then... because the way you changed it to say monetary reasons completely makes this a new topic... its not asking the same question... and i never said i wanted to change it to "monetary reasons"... i didnt know this board was sensored like that.. i didnt change my topic title you did... that is not right.. i'd rather it killed and i wont try to repost it again.. in the future i'll know not to bring up such touchy topics that shouldnt be a touchy topic in the first place.... or maybe i should change the topic to read"Has pac avoided darker skinned fighters in the past?"... does that sound better to you.. what you are posting does not ask the same question.

For those reading the topic should read "Has Pac ducked Black fighters in the past?"...
Box in Hand
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Aug 1 2009, 05:03 PM) *
as far as im concerned you can kill the topic again then... because the way you changed it to say monetary reasons completely makes this a new topic... its not asking the same question... and i never said i wanted to change it to "monetary reasons"... i didnt know this board was sensored like that.. i didnt change my topic title you did... that is not right.. i'd rather it killed and i wont try to repost it again.. in the future i'll know not to bring up such touchy topics that shouldnt be a touchy topic in the first place.... or maybe i should change the topic to read"Has pac avoided darker skinned fighters in the past?"... does that sound better to you.. what you are posting does not ask the same question.

For those reading the topic should read "Has Pac ducked Black fighters in the past?"...



Nothing to sweat bro. Some people in the past though have lost their minds when it comes to race. Yeah, most of us here are grown but I've seen a few dummies on here as well.
iron_mike
Pac, like Floyd and Shane, are all about the biggest $ fights possible...I really doubt Pac purposefully avoided a black fighter because...he's black...Wasn't his 1st major win vs Ledwaba? He looked pretty black to me. If Pac/Mayweather is about to get made, u think Pac would not take it because Floyd is black??
leonthegee
QUOTE (iron_mike @ Aug 1 2009, 02:28 PM) *
Pac, like Floyd and Shane, are all about the biggest $ fights possible...I really doubt Pac purposefully avoided a black fighter because...he's black...Wasn't his 1st major win vs Ledwaba? He looked pretty black to me. If Pac/Mayweather is about to get made, u think Pac would not take it because Floyd is black??


please ledwaba was lik 8 yrs ago and he had to travel all the way to the phillopines to get the fight. but doesnt it seem odd that u can rise all the way up to p4p1 without fighting none of the top brothas in any of the weight classes? well it doesnt matter really because to be the man u have to beat the man. if floyd looks dominate against jmm everybodys gonna know who the real p4p1 fighter is anyway. and pacmans p4p1 title will alwyas come into question untill floyd v manny happens. hopefully both fighters can stay undefeated untill then.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Aug 1 2009, 08:55 PM) *
this was a topic i posted a few days ago with an interesting article that i read to go with it... For some reason it was taken off the topic list... i guess one of the admins. felt it was too racial of a topic to post... i actually ended by saying i didn't think he was intentionally avoiding black fighters but making money decisions and also made the point that his biggest money fight right now is against a black fighter in pbf.... any hoot i would like to get you guys take on the topic if it isn't killed again... there are some good fighters in the past that can be argued he avoided or just didn't fight for what ever reason... to name a few was primed Tim Austin and Freddie Norwood... any way i am just interested in you guys opinion on the subject...



So what exactly did Tim Austin & Freddie Norwood do to deserve a fight with Pac?

Norwood was retired for 5 years by the time Pac landed there in 2005 & in no way deserved a fight with Pac. When he came back in 2006 he was fighting scrubs at 135+.

As for Austin, Pac was largely fighting in Asia at the time & by the time he got to fighting in the USA had outgrown the Bantamweight division & was facing bigger & better challenges at featherweight. More matter of timing really than ducking.

Keep trying though I am sure you will find some dusky coloured person he did not fight.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Aug 1 2009, 10:03 PM) *
For those reading the topic should read "Has Pac ducked Black fighters in the past?"...


How about a rethink of the thread title to say "Has a black person ever been in a position to challenge Pac & if they have why have they not?"
iron_mike
QUOTE (leonthegee @ Aug 1 2009, 08:23 PM) *
please ledwaba was lik 8 yrs ago and he had to travel all the way to the phillopines to get the fight. but doesnt it seem odd that u can rise all the way up to p4p1 without fighting none of the top brothas in any of the weight classes? well it doesnt matter really because to be the man u have to beat the man. if floyd looks dominate against jmm everybodys gonna know who the real p4p1 fighter is anyway. and pacmans p4p1 title will alwyas come into question untill floyd v manny happens. hopefully both fighters can stay undefeated untill then.



But pretty much like Stevenski said, what 'brothas' were there to be fought that legitimately desrved a shot that Pac avoided??
leonthegee
QUOTE (iron_mike @ Aug 1 2009, 04:48 PM) *
But pretty much like Stevenski said, what 'brothas' were there to be fought that legitimately desrved a shot that Pac avoided??

let me think ahh mosley. hell he fought david diaz why not the winner of tonights fight. if u wanna throw joel casamayor in there too u can. we can adopt him for the sake of argument. hes dark enough.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (leonthegee @ Aug 2 2009, 01:19 AM) *
let me think ahh mosley. hell he fought david diaz why not the winner of tonights fight. if u wanna throw joel casamayor in there two u can. we can adopt him for the sake of argument. hes dark enough.


What do any of the above bring to the party excluding Shane?
provo
HELL YEAH PAC AVOIDS BLACK FIGHTERS!
Reason why? Because there more of a boxer than a slugger ,pac has trouble with guys who know how To BOX !
Marquez and erik morales were the closets thing and he got his ass kicked! 2nd morales fight ,erik was done didn't have it anymore had trouble makin weight and all went threw wars in his prime he would have killed pac... the only way pac fights a black fighter if he can get them to drop weight or something the give him a advantage!
leonthegee
[quote name='STEVENSKI' date='Aug 1 2009, 05:25 PM' post='446619']
What do any of the above bring to the party excluding Shane?
[/qu
more then david diaz. i was just answering the question i didnt post it. i know how ur in love with manny and all. its funny cuz i said this a year ago when he fought david diaz. i thought he was avoiding the black athlete then but i dont think that hes avoiding the brothas anymore. i think hes avoiding anybody with a decent right hand. so that eliminates may, shane, nate, tim, and just about any other black fighter out there. people act like mannys improved so much since the last fight with marquez (which was less than 2 yrs ago), when its really been the match ups that have been in mannys favor. dlh, hatton, and cottos best punch is the left hook. thats my opinion. hes not avoiding the race just the matchup.
Big Slim Sweet
Pacquiao doesn't duck black fighters this is stupid! He fights guys Freddie Roach thinks he has the best chance to beat, who get him paid the most. Take from that whatever you want to.
torvix2000
Julio is black. 2 rounds.
torvix2000
Maybe, there should have been 3 great black fighters at featherweight instead of 3 great Mexicans when Pacquiao moved up.
CreDog
LOL.. regarding Pac ducking black fighters... really aren't that many black fighters under 135-- KFC>diet---

Elephant in the room... reverse discrimination... Can you imagine Calzaghe stating-- wait... here it comes... Bhop isn't very good, he's never fought a white guy who's going to "out think him"... sadly that is a very true statement.
CreDog
QUOTE (Big Slim @ Aug 1 2009, 08:19 PM) *
Pacquiao doesn't duck black fighters this is stupid! He fights guys Freddie Roach thinks he has the best chance to beat, who get him paid the most. Take from that whatever you want to.



=== intelligence... Wait,,,, fight some random for his legacy to faggot ass fanboys... yeah.. makes sense-- Fight for respect of keyboard warriors,,

you are an idiot, so whom or who, for your dumbass.. do you think he should have fought??? Other than DLH or Haton??
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Aug 1 2009, 07:30 PM) *
So what exactly did Tim Austin & Freddie Norwood do to deserve a fight with Pac?

Norwood was retired for 5 years by the time Pac landed there in 2005 & in no way deserved a fight with Pac. When he came back in 2006 he was fighting scrubs at 135+.

As for Austin, Pac was largely fighting in Asia at the time & by the time he got to fighting in the USA had outgrown the Bantamweight division & was facing bigger & better challenges at featherweight. More matter of timing really than ducking.

Keep trying though I am sure you will find some dusky coloured person he did not fight.


what had pac done at the time when austin and norwood reigned that he could have picked and chose not tot fight them?... they would have made him not the other way around, they where fighting on showtime not pac.... pac wasnt a superstar at that time... pac wasnt even on the boxing radar... those two fighters were.. and i could come up with other fighters that he bypassed as well... again had the original topic been posted it would have came with an article i read... do i think he PURPOSELY avoided black fighters?... i've answered that already and the answer is no... BUT... i can see where the argument can be made...
Mean Mister Mustard
This thread is weird. First things first, Austin was at bantamweight in his prime, Pacquiao was an up and coming unknown asian fighter that no one would have given a title shot to. When he finally started making noise at 122 pounds, Austin was done as a fighter. NOrwood was a featherweight in his prime and Pac was at the lower weights.

As fof the poster who said Ledwaba had to go to the Phillipines, what are you talking about? The fight was in Vegas.

Quiote frankly I find this thread a waste of time. So is the answer to beating Pacquiao a slick black fighter? Is that his kryptonite? So what other black fighter did he avoid? The only one I can think of is Nate Campbell but you seeing how Campbell did against another young, quick, slick and energetic fighter in Bradley I don't think he would have beaten Pacquiao.

So to answer the question, he did avoid the best competition at lightweight, seeing as he was the bigger name and could have gotten any fight he wanted, might as well have been against the top guy there but he chose instead to make it a quick stop. When he was in the lower divisions on the other hand, he was not in the position to demand fights and was thus unable to fight the best there.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (Mean Mister Mustard @ Aug 2 2009, 09:38 AM) *
This thread is weird. First things first, Austin was at bantamweight in his prime, Pacquiao was an up and coming unknown asian fighter that no one would have given a title shot to. When he finally started making noise at 122 pounds, Austin was done as a fighter. NOrwood was a featherweight in his prime and Pac was at the lower weights.

As fof the poster who said Ledwaba had to go to the Phillipines, what are you talking about? The fight was in Vegas.

Quiote frankly I find this thread a waste of time. So is the answer to beating Pacquiao a slick black fighter? Is that his kryptonite? So what other black fighter did he avoid? The only one I can think of is Nate Campbell but you seeing how Campbell did against another young, quick, slick and energetic fighter in Bradley I don't think he would have beaten Pacquiao.

So to answer the question, he did avoid the best competition at lightweight, seeing as he was the bigger name and could have gotten any fight he wanted, might as well have been against the top guy there but he chose instead to make it a quick stop. When he was in the lower divisions on the other hand, he was not in the position to demand fights and was thus unable to fight the best there.


go back and research mmm... in 2000 tim austin was ibf bantam weight champ... manny pac was wbc super bantamweight champ and freddie norwood was wba featherweight champ... he was only seperated by both fighters by only a few pounds and all 3 where reigning champs at the same time... norwood and austin where both fan favorite showtime fighters at the time... derrick gainer was another champ he could have fought at the time, he would dethrone norwood later that year and was a hot fighter as well at the time... again i'm not saying he ducks black fighters but for someone that wants to make the argument i can see where it can be made.. topic being weird is very far from the case... if you are not looking at pacs career from a financial standpoint it is a very valid question... i would go further with the names but as he grew in weight their where more prominant black fighters that had a bigger resume than he at the time and the fights never took place... pac is the man now but had he fought some of those guys what would have became of his career?.. thats a very valid question...
Mean Mister Mustard
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Aug 2 2009, 11:31 AM) *
go back and research mmm... in 2000 tim austin was ibf bantam weight champ... manny pac was wbc super bantamweight champ and freddie norwood was wba featherweight champ... he was only seperated by both fighters by only a few pounds and all 3 where reigning champs at the same time... norwood and austin where both fan favorite showtime fighters at the time... derrick gainer was another champ he could have fought at the time, he would dethrone norwood later that year and was a hot fighter as well at the time... again i'm not saying he ducks black fighters but for someone that wants to make the argument i can see where it can be made.. topic being weird is very far from the case... if you are not looking at pacs career from a financial standpoint it is a very valid question... i would go further with the names but as he grew in weight their where more prominant black fighters that had a bigger resume than he at the time and the fights never took place... pac is the man now but had he fought some of those guys what would have became of his career?.. thats a very valid question...


Well that's what I'm saying J, they weren't in his division. Now my attention has always pointed more towards the higher weight divisions but I don't remember Tim Austin in his prime or Norwood or Gainer or Mark Johnson ever challenging him and Pacquiao replying with a "No". Why? Because he wasn't a big name, not many people were looking to fight him.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (Mean Mister Mustard @ Aug 2 2009, 01:01 PM) *
Well that's what I'm saying J, they weren't in his division. Now my attention has always pointed more towards the higher weight divisions but I don't remember Tim Austin in his prime or Norwood or Gainer or Mark Johnson ever challenging him and Pacquiao replying with a "No". Why? Because he wasn't a big name, not many people were looking to fight him.


what i'm saying is that if he was so great he had a solid black champ above and below his weight class for a hot minute that where both tv fighters that he could have challenged (both more than likely televised on showtime)... i doubt either guy would have backed down to his challenge... again not triing to talk down on pac and the issue but those are two fights that where out there... and all 3 fighters where established champs at the time...you can make what ever points i feel what you are saying but the truth is he had solid black fighters at that time that would have tested him.. a young gainer would have gave him hell.. pac probably gets to his chin at some point but gainer would have given him pure hell up until that time if it came...
Sugar Q
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Aug 2 2009, 06:54 PM) *
what i'm saying is that if he was so great he had a solid black champ above and below his weight class for a hot minute that where both tv fighters that he could have challenged (both more than likely televised on showtime)... i doubt either guy would have backed down to his challenge... again not triing to talk down on pac and the issue but those are two fights that where out there... and all 3 fighters where established champs at the time...you can make what ever points i feel what you are saying but the truth is he had solid black fighters at that time that would have tested him.. a young gainer would have gave him hell.. pac probably gets to his chin at some point but gainer would have given him pure hell up until that time if it came...



Great point JLUV but the main thing is a win over Casamayor or Campbell would've been a real light-wt championship win instead of Diaz so your point is valid definitely at 135 and there is no excuse anyone can give for that. Dude has been picking damaged goods that will come straight at him every since which is the reason why Roach is clearly saying their going after Cotto. I just Cotto comes in with his head together because if he does Manny goes to sleep. Pacquiao would not have called out the Oscar that Floyd fought so he waited and called out the damaged Oscar that Steve Forbes fought. Listen to Roach and you hear why Manny should never be considered the P4P best. The P4P best doesn't go after damaged good they want the best at their best.
Mean Mister Mustard
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Aug 2 2009, 06:54 PM) *
what i'm saying is that if he was so great he had a solid black champ above and below his weight class for a hot minute that where both tv fighters that he could have challenged (both more than likely televised on showtime)... i doubt either guy would have backed down to his challenge... again not triing to talk down on pac and the issue but those are two fights that where out there... and all 3 fighters where established champs at the time...you can make what ever points i feel what you are saying but the truth is he had solid black fighters at that time that would have tested him.. a young gainer would have gave him hell.. pac probably gets to his chin at some point but gainer would have given him pure hell up until that time if it came...


Like I said, I don't remember if he was being challenged by those guys but I doubt Tim Austin would have fought him. The guy was fighting once a year and was fed up of being in the shadows, he only wanted a big fight. I doubt Pacquiao would have been one at that time. I am glad you realize a prime Gainer would have lost to Pacquiao because he wasn't all that good. ALthough he did have a shot of hitting Pacquiao in the nuts and have an inept ref count it as a knockout.

NOwrood on the other hand would have given him fits, that one I would have liked to have seen but Pacquiao was a virtual unknown and was just about to go to the 122 pound division.

I do find it a shame that he never fought Campbell. Pacquiao's lightweight adventure is the same as Mayweather's at 140, it was only a pit stop.
Mean Mister Mustard
QUOTE (Sugar Q @ Aug 2 2009, 08:11 PM) *
Great point JLUV but the main thing is a win over Casamayor or Campbell would've been a real light-wt championship win instead of Diaz so your point is valid definitely at 135 and there is no excuse anyone can give for that. Dude has been picking damaged goods that will come straight at him every since which is the reason why Roach is clearly saying their going after Cotto. I just Cotto comes in with his head together because if he does Manny goes to sleep. Pacquiao would not have called out the Oscar that Floyd fought so he waited and called out the damaged Oscar that Steve Forbes fought. Listen to Roach and you hear why Manny should never be considered the P4P best. The P4P best doesn't go after damaged good they want the best at their best.



Already giving yourself an out I see.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (Mean Mister Mustard @ Aug 2 2009, 07:19 PM) *
Like I said, I don't remember if he was being challenged by those guys but I doubt Tim Austin would have fought him. The guy was fighting once a year and was fed up of being in the shadows, he only wanted a big fight. I doubt Pacquiao would have been one at that time. I am glad you realize a prime Gainer would have lost to Pacquiao because he wasn't all that good. ALthough he did have a shot of hitting Pacquiao in the nuts and have an inept ref count it as a knockout.

NOwrood on the other hand would have given him fits, that one I would have liked to have seen but Pacquiao was a virtual unknown and was just about to go to the 122 pound division.

I do find it a shame that he never fought Campbell. Pacquiao's lightweight adventure is the same as Mayweather's at 140, it was only a pit stop.


you're right tim didnt fight alot... BUT, he was always complaining because king kept him at the bottom of his priority list.. tim austin was a very highly skilled fighter that had he stayed active would have probably reigned for a long time... Tim would have most def. taken that fight just to have a fight... he wa very badly mismanaged by kings organization... that fight would have and could have been made.. also, i want to make this point as well known or not pac was a reigning champ at the time.. the fight could have been made rather he was known or not.. most fighters are unknown till they fight someone that is known and has a coming out.... nobody knew bout azumah nelson till he fought salvador sanchez in a LOSING EFFORT... just saying if you want to make the argument that is prime example... pac could have been came out if he was so confident... he had his opps...

i hadnt even thought bout nate campbell but he would have been the man to go after at lightweight and at 140 he has a bradley that is not even on the radar... you can even argue that zab judah tried to make a fight after hatton and was denied.... if he feels he has to make catchweights to fight the welters he needs to fight at 140.... nuff said.
Mean Mister Mustard
Well neither you nor I know if Tim Austin issued a challenge. And also Austin would have had to move UP in weight thus putting him at another disadvantage.
Sugar Q
QUOTE (Mean Mister Mustard @ Aug 2 2009, 08:20 PM) *
Already giving yourself an out I see.



Not at all I'm riding with Cotto 100% in this fight I just hope he's not distracted by all the BS going on in his life and he hires a good trainer to bring the right energy in. If Cotto is Cotto Pacquiao gets ko'd.
Mean Mister Mustard
QUOTE (Sugar Q @ Aug 2 2009, 11:40 PM) *
Not at all I'm riding with Cotto 100% in this fight I just hope he's not distracted by all the BS going on in his life and he hires a good trainer to bring the right energy in. If Cotto is Cotto Pacquiao gets ko'd.


I think early on Cotto could get a lead but if he fades, which he will, he will have to survive Pacquiao's patented flurries late in the fight.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (Mean Mister Mustard @ Aug 2 2009, 07:54 PM) *
Well neither you nor I know if Tim Austin issued a challenge. And also Austin would have had to move UP in weight thus putting him at another disadvantage.


thats not whats in question tho.. whats in question here is did pac have a suitable black opponents to fight at such and such time during his reigns and i brought up 3 more than suitable fighters he could have faced... all 3 very dangerous at the time line i brought up for pac to have fought... and if i want to put my thinking cap on i am sure i can come up with others besides the obvious...
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Aug 3 2009, 08:32 AM) *
thats not whats in question tho.. whats in question here is did pac have a suitable black opponents to fight at such and such time during his reigns and i brought up 3 more than suitable fighters he could have faced... all 3 very dangerous at the time line i brought up for pac to have fought... and if i want to put my thinking cap on i am sure i can come up with others besides the obvious...


No you brought up one fighter he could have fought who was Campbell who had just won the titles whilst Pac was fighting Marquez. Campbell was then inactive for 11 months & lost the titles on the scale without making a single defense. In that time Pac fought Diaz & DLH.

Now I don't know about you but hypothetically if Pac was faced with fighting Campbell or DLH who should he have fought & what would be the bigger fight to make?

As for Austin buy the time a fight would have been suitable Austin was fighting as a Bantam & Pac as a Feather who never fought as a Bantam & was inactive effectively. Stop with this bullshit of making things out top be something other than what they actually are.
Mean Mister Mustard
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Aug 3 2009, 03:32 AM) *
thats not whats in question tho.. whats in question here is did pac have a suitable black opponents to fight at such and such time during his reigns and i brought up 3 more than suitable fighters he could have faced... all 3 very dangerous at the time line i brought up for pac to have fought... and if i want to put my thinking cap on i am sure i can come up with others besides the obvious...


The initial question was whether he DUCKED black fighters not whether they were mere suitable opponents. And the answer is NO he did not duck them.
Sugar Q
The point is Pac could've fought Campbell or Casamayor instead of Diaz. Nobody can be mad at him for fighting Oscar but Diaz was the easy route.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Aug 3 2009, 07:49 AM) *
No you brought up one fighter he could have fought who was Campbell who had just won the titles whilst Pac was fighting Marquez. Campbell was then inactive for 11 months & lost the titles on the scale without making a single defense. In that time Pac fought Diaz & DLH.

Now I don't know about you but hypothetically if Pac was faced with fighting Campbell or DLH who should he have fought & what would be the bigger fight to make?

As for Austin buy the time a fight would have been suitable Austin was fighting as a Bantam & Pac as a Feather who never fought as a Bantam & was inactive effectively. Stop with this bullshit of making things out top be something other than what they actually are.


all the fights i mentioned are fights that where within one weight division of being made, no bullshit there do the research stevenski.. facts are facts and fact is all 3 fighters where champs at the same time.. look it up... now, if you go back and read what i have been talking about in this topic you will see i havent accused pac of ducking the fighters rather i have been saying that a very valid debate can be made on the subject if you are not looking at it from a financial position, meaning him taking the money fights over maybe the more fan friendly fights... for that i dont blame him.. boxing is a buisness...
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (Mean Mister Mustard @ Aug 3 2009, 09:34 AM) *
The initial question was whether he DUCKED black fighters not whether they were mere suitable opponents. And the answer is NO he did not duck them.


i will meet you half way d-marv and say he has done a good job at avoiding certain fighters.. hows that...lol
kidbazooka1
In no way do i believe that Manny has ducked black fighters.

He fought the toughest comp in Barrera/Morales/Marquez. There was no top black fighter around that weight class at the time that could compare to the top three.

And for the people saying he could have fought Austin and Campbell Manny would have crushed both of those guys with ease Ricky Hatton style.

Bottom line is there was no black fighter who came close to Barrera, Morales and Marquez who were the top dogs at the time and Manny fought all of them nuff said.
Mean Mister Mustard
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Aug 3 2009, 10:22 AM) *
i will meet you half way d-marv and say he has done a good job at avoiding certain fighters.. hows that...lol


Dmarv????

The bottom line is I haven't been able to find any articles stating that Austin, Mark Jonhnson, Norwood or Gainer wanted any part of a 115-122 pound Pacquiao between 1998-2001. So no he didn't duck them and I have no doubt that even the crude, raw Pacquiao of that time beats gainer and Austin, on physical talent alone. Norwood would be another story. Hey, at least he butchered Ledwaba.

He did avoid Campbell at 135, no doubt about that. Still would have beaten him though.
iron_mike
This is the dumbest topic....Manny is such a full blown racist, unlike Mayweather, I'm positive he'd pass a 10 figure payday because the guy was black....why do u think he'd rather Cotto than Shane?? OBVIOUSLY because Shane is black, and not the tougher challenge than Cotto...cmon man this thread needs to DIE
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (Mean Mister Mustard @ Aug 3 2009, 11:49 AM) *
Dmarv????

The bottom line is I haven't been able to find any articles stating that Austin, Mark Jonhnson, Norwood or Gainer wanted any part of a 115-122 pound Pacquiao between 1998-2001. So no he didn't duck them and I have no doubt that even the crude, raw Pacquiao of that time beats gainer and Austin, on physical talent alone. Norwood would be another story. Hey, at least he butchered Ledwaba.

He did avoid Campbell at 135, no doubt about that. Still would have beaten him though.


my bad i did say d-marv...lol...

never did i say they called him out my point is that those fights where out there... those guys where very solid champions at the time of his reign at the lower weights and could have been made.... thing is we can go on and on... i think we both make valid points and i do feel what you are saying, i just feel that those fights would have or could have said a lot about his reign at the lower weights... contrary to what kidbazooka thinks i dont think he would have just crushed a tim austin or a freddie norwood in their primes, they both could have very well beaten him... austin was a very highly skilled fighter that was mismanaged and finally lost his title to a young raphael marquez (who is another fighter while not black he could have faced) where at the time of the stoppage was a very good solid fight that he was very much in had he not been knocked out.. again in no way do i think he ducked any fighters... i have maintained through all the convo's that i think he made smart financial decisions as to who he was going to fight.. point is those fighters where out there... and the original post had it been allowed to stay up actually read "avoided black fighters"... i will admit "ducked" is a little harsh a word to use but remember i didnt change the topic heading one of the admins. did...
Mean Mister Mustard
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Aug 3 2009, 12:05 PM) *
my bad i did say d-marv...lol...

never did i say they called him out my point is that those fights where out there... those guys where very solid champions at the time of his reign at the lower weights and could have been made.... thing is we can go on and on... i think we both make valid points and i do feel what you are saying, i just feel that those fights would have or could have said a lot about his reign at the lower weights... contrary to what kidbazooka thinks i dont think he would have just crushed a tim austin or a freddie norwood in their primes, they both could have very well beaten him... austin was a very highly skilled fighter that was mismanaged and finally lost his title to a young raphael marquez (who is another fighter while not black he could have faced) where at the time of the stoppage was a very good solid fight that he was very much in had he not been knocked out.. again in no way do i think he ducked any fighters... i have maintained through all the convo's that i think he made smart financial decisions as to who he was going to fight.. point is those fighters where out there... and the original post had it been allowed to stay up actually read "avoided black fighters"... i will admit "ducked" is a little harsh a word to use but remember i didnt change the topic heading one of the admins. did...


Beating those guys would have definietly added to his legacy but he I don't think anyone one of those guys was looking to fight him at that time. Hell the only reason Pacquiao got Ledwaba was because Ledwaba's original opponent couldn't fight.

I think he would have beaten Austin and Gainer but Norwood would have stood a good chance against him.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (Mean Mister Mustard @ Aug 3 2009, 12:20 PM) *
Beating those guys would have definietly added to his legacy but he I don't think anyone one of those guys was looking to fight him at that time. Hell the only reason Pacquiao got Ledwaba was because Ledwaba's original opponent couldn't fight.

I think he would have beaten Austin and Gainer but Norwood would have stood a good chance against him.


i think austin would have had a chance as well... remember pac wasnt the fighter he is now.. he was very crude... austin was a master boxer... and had a descent punch himself... gainer just didnt have the chin.. he could box tho...
Mean Mister Mustard
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Aug 3 2009, 12:52 PM) *
i think austin would have had a chance as well... remember pac wasnt the fighter he is now.. he was very crude... austin was a master boxer... and had a descent punch himself... gainer just didnt have the chin.. he could box tho...


Yeah I think Austin had a chance but something tells me he would have fallen apart after 8-9 rounds. I mean just look at how once Marquez started opening up Austin crumbled.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (Mean Mister Mustard @ Aug 3 2009, 01:04 PM) *
Yeah I think Austin had a chance but something tells me he would have fallen apart after 8-9 rounds. I mean just look at how once Marquez started opening up Austin crumbled.


austin crumbled but if you rememebr it was always his concern after each of his fights that he wasnt fighting enough... he was very badly mismanaged to say he was so highly skilled... you never saw him on kings major ppv cards etc.... he kept him as a filler date for showtime and even at the time i never understood that... raph. marquez wasnt the fighter just yet he would become tho he was very good at that time as well but i wonder how that fight wold have played out had austin fought on a more regular basis...
Fadetwist
Maybe because African Americans are notorious for their love for Asian women, maybe Pac is scared he would get get mistaken for one and get grabbed on inappropriate places in the ring. Lmao!!
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (Mean Mister Mustard @ Aug 3 2009, 04:49 PM) *
He did avoid Campbell at 135, no doubt about that. Still would have beaten him though.


Put it this way Campbell won his titles & did not fight for 11 months losing them on the scales. I don't think that he would have fought again 3 months after winning them & Pac was lured by a DLH payday which I would challenge any fighter at any weight class to turn down. I don't call that avoiding I say that is just how things are.

Should he fight Campbell now? How about if he signed to fight Campbell & Nate did not make weight. If Pac walked away at the weigh in & called the fight off would that be avoiding Campbell too?
Fitz
I don't like Manny Pacquiao, but I call a spade a spade. Pacquiao hasn't intentionally ducked black fighters. Firstly, there aren't many black fighters in the lower divisions. Secondly when Manny fought Barrera in 2003 and beat him, it was one of the upsets of the year. Why? Because not many knew about Manny then and he surprised everyone. It was an upset for a reason, because nobody ever expected it. Before 2003, I doubt anybody was saying why the hell isn't (insert black champion) fighting this Manny Pacquiao guy? Manny made a name for himself in 2003, he wasn't highly regarded prior to that, if he was the Barrera fight wouldn't have been as big of an upset.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Aug 3 2009, 12:05 PM) *
my bad i did say d-marv...lol...

never did i say they called him out my point is that those fights where out there... those guys where very solid champions at the time of his reign at the lower weights and could have been made.... thing is we can go on and on... i think we both make valid points and i do feel what you are saying, i just feel that those fights would have or could have said a lot about his reign at the lower weights... contrary to what kidbazooka thinks i dont think he would have just crushed a tim austin or a freddie norwood in their primes, they both could have very well beaten him... austin was a very highly skilled fighter that was mismanaged and finally lost his title to a young raphael marquez (who is another fighter while not black he could have faced) where at the time of the stoppage was a very good solid fight that he was very much in had he not been knocked out.. again in no way do i think he ducked any fighters... i have maintained through all the convo's that i think he made smart financial decisions as to who he was going to fight.. point is those fighters where out there... and the original post had it been allowed to stay up actually read "avoided black fighters"... i will admit "ducked" is a little harsh a word to use but remember i didnt change the topic heading one of the admins. did...


Look it's very easy to break down.

Lets say we have Norwood, Ausitn and Gainer and then we have Barerra, Morales and Marquez (whom Manny has fought a combined 7 times). Now who would you be most likely to avoid?

Austin was managed by Don King yeah? Well then that's never an easy fight to make. Fact is it just hasn't panned out that way during Manny's career and to suggest any different is racist bullshit.

I won't even bring Mosley into this because that dude has been fighting at 147-154 for years and Manny hasn't really been in or around those weights for more than 10 seconds.
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