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Jack 1000
I voted for The Executioner!

I believe that Jones was a tremendously gifted athlete who had all of the attributes of a great boxer. Probably the potential to be like Leonard.

But for greatness, it has to be Hopkins, because Jones had an issue of paranoia about getting hurt in the ring and would not face a hard puncher because of it. (I mean he didn't fight McClellan, he didn't fight Benn, he didn't fight Darius or Eubank. He didn't even fight a prime McCallum.) Sure it is possible that he COULD have beaten all those guys, but we will never know. I mean could you see Jones in there with any hard puncher who had the capacity to hurt him? A Julian Jackson? a pre-Hagler Mugabi? I can't. Floyd Mayweather is copying that same blueprint in whom he fights and quality of opposition. Castillo I was Floyd's last war. Jones took the principle of "Most Money, Least Risk" and Mayweather capitalized on that.

Hopkins didn't make a career out of ducking fighters like Jones did and Mayweather is doing. He'd fight them all and didn't care about getting hurt or not. Executioner got in there and fought. Bernard is not as naturally slick and elusive as a prime Jones. Roy had better natural boxing agility, like I said, comparable to Leonard.

HOPKINS HAD LESS NATURAL ABILITY THAN JONES, BUT MANAGED TO DO A LOT MORE WITH IT BY NOT DUCKING FIGHTERS WHO COULD HURT HIM.

Jones is more "What could have been?" Hopkins is more, "What is." And the fact that Hopkins at his age is still able to be as competitive as he is, and damn near beat the shit out of Pavlik as he did speaks volumes.

The difference is clear, look at their accomplishments. Hopkins destroying Pavlik in a fight that no one expected him to win so easily, Roy fighting on has-beens because his ego won't allow him to retire. And Hopkins didn't exactly get KTFO and unconscious for several minutes by the fearsome punching Glen Johnson either! (LOL!) And Tarver's brutal KO of Jones in the second fight was at a time when Roy was considered still a top P4P fighter. Regardless of how you feel about Jones, those loses have to hurt his legacy.

OK, that Johnson KO loss was far removed from Jones' prime but as Jones is still fighting and Hopkins is still fighting, Bernard has the better resume. Roy ducked too many fighters or fought too many guys past their prime. In an era, where Jones could have been great, Roy was just good.

Hopkins is the better fighter.

Jack
King Eugene
^^ laugh.gif Such a bias post.

I do agree that Hopkins had the better career mainly cause of the longevity of it. You could also make the argument that those guys ducked Roy as well. I didn't hear too many of them beating down his door asking for a fight but oh well...some folks feelings will never change so no need and trying. Hopkins had 20 defenses...that gives him legend status alone. He dismantled a lot of good fighters through his title reign. Hopkins fought the better competition as well. I believe Roy could have taken more risk but the LHW division wasn't necessarily a stacked division. I think going from Jr. Middleweight all the way up to Heavyweight wont ever be forgotten. The case can be made that he beat the weakest heavyweight which I know a lot of people will throw out there but at the same time a lot of people picked Ruiz to KO Jones. Oh well, I could go on and on about this but I wont cause I dont want it to seem like I'm dangling on his nutts with my teeth.

Hopkins had the greater career!

But he couldn't beat Jones!
BigG
Head to head, Jones beat him....but Hopkins got ALL the guys that beat Jones....in the end, I think Hopkins ended up being a great fighter.
King Eugene
QUOTE (BigG @ Aug 7 2009, 10:54 PM) *
Head to head, Jones beat him....but Hopkins got ALL the guys that beat Jones....in the end, I think Hopkins ended up being a great fighter.

Looks like he was trying to do the same with JT as well. LOL
Mean Mister Mustard
I love the potential this thread has, despite the fact that is has been discussed numerous times in the past I feel that it is once again needed since we have not gone back to it in a good long while.

The logical thing to do here would be to list the competiton they beat. 2 categories: The big wins (career defning fights) and top competition (top contedners, maybe not really ATG or even HOF but solid guys considered top notch in their time). Also we have to analyze their performances and those "little extras" that left their mark. Think Mike Tyson being the youngest heavyweight champ ever or Floyd Patterson regaining the title from Johansen. And let's not forget their losses.

Roy Jones Jr Big wins: Bernard Hopkins. Yes, green at the time but so was Jones and no one at the time had given Jones such a fight, much less a loss. Jones showed he was the better fighter, for that night anyway. James Toney, undefeated, experienced and packing a punch, this fight would determine the top P4P fighter in the world. Many thought it was too lcose to call which is why it was so impressive to see Jones box circles around Toney en route to a near shut out performance. John Ruiz All right, not an ATG fighter or even a HOF fighter but he was bigger and heavier plus he had a nice jab and his clinching skills could have worn Jones down. Instead, Jones showed that his skills and talent were more than enough to beat the respected heavyweight contender. Personal favourite moments in that fight, seeing Jones stagger Ruiz and imagine him thinking "Oh shit, this guy can hurt me?", Stoney losing his mind in the corner and Jones's creepy shrieking when the decision was annoucned. Antonio Tarver He gets no love here, or any other place but Tarver is a good fighter. He had beaten Reggie Johnson, bludgeoned Montell Griffin and avenged his loss to Harding via KO to cement his status as the top contender. To me he is above the likes of a mere contender which is why he gets a spot here.

Top Competition: Montell Griffin, Reggie Johnson, MOntell Griffin, Lou Devalle, Otis Grant, Eric Lucas, Vinny Paz, Felix Trinidad (In here because he hadn't fought in 2 years and was above his best weight) Eric Harding, Clinton Woods, Julio Cesar Gonzalez, Virgil Hill.

Little Extras: Winning a round without being touched against Paz, the revenge against Griffin via KO in the 1st round, going up to Heavyweight and toying with Ruiz, knocking out Thulani Malinga ( I think) and making his eyes go up and white like Linda Blair and knocking out Hill with one explosive body shot. Of course, there is his most famous move, the "Look ma no hands" KO against Glen Kelly, which I found unsportsmanlike but equally impressive nonetheless. Winning multiple titles in different divisions, unifying the Lightheavyweight division and making it look easy. Oh and beating Tarver, he was damn near exhausted and showed heart by pulling his socks up and taking the 12th round.

Losses/negative feedback. Forget the DQ over Griffin or the KO loss in the 2nd Tarver fight ( Hey, almost every top fighter gets caught once). It's the 3rd Tarver fight that hurts him. He was still as quick and smart as he was in the 1st fight and also the 2nd fight in which he was controlling the action. In the 3rd fight however, he did noting bu run, shake his ass and try to make it without getting stopped. Especially bad considering he had a good 5th round and then suddenly decided he didn't want to take the risk of throwing combos again. Credit to Tarver for shutting him down? Sure, but discredit to Jones for not trying to do anything about it. What can be said about the Calzaghe fight other than the fact that Hopkins almots had Calzaghe on the scorecards while Jones could only win a couple of rounds and cover up for the rest of the night.

Hopkins Best wins: Felix Trinidad: P4P the best fighter in the world, knocking out everyone in his path. "The old man will fight like a lion" the people said "but how long before his age shows up?" It never did as Hopkins dismantled Trinidad en route to a 12th round stoppage. Oscar De La Hoya Speedy fighter with skills to match, he had been seemingly robbed against Mosley and got one of his own against Sturm as he showed up out of shape and overconfident. Not for this one though, this was premium DLH with a gameplan to beat the old man. Hopkins turned the tables on all those writers expecting him to chase DLH around the ring and insetad boxed from a distance, looking as quick if not quicker than DH to wear him down and end it with a bodyshot before he could really put a hurt on him. Did I mention Hopkins was 39 years old? Antonio Tarver, had gone to war against Johnson and beat him in the rematch and had petrified Roy Jones, the legend killer would strike once again right? Not quite, Hopkins toyed with Tarver en route to a 12 round UD. Winky Wright. 2 of the most crafty fighters of their time met to tango. Wright had beaten Mosley twice, shut out Trinidad and might have been robbed against Taylor. The fight was a bore for some but others were intrigued at how Hopkins dealt with Wright's turtle shell defence by making him miss, lugning in with shots and then holding. Cotto should watch this fight if he ever fights Clottey again. Kelly Pavlik the young lion was supposed to run Hopkins out of the ring, instead it was the old man who had Pavlik wondering what had just happened as X won a UD.

Top Competition: Segundo Mercado, Glen Johnson, John David Jackson, Robert Allen, Antwon Echols, William Joppy, Howard Eastman, Keith Holmes, Syd Vanderpool.

Little Extras: How about any of his wins after the age of 39? Beating down Glen Johnson at his own game, Making Joppy look like the elephant man after putting on an inside clinic on him, being the only man to KNOCKOUT Oscar De La Hoya and Tito Trinidad, fastest KO in a middleweight title defence against Steve Frank, fighting on with a dislocated shoulder against Echols in their rematch and his draw against Mercado in Equador where the crowd was nuts, Mercado was a hard hitting touch SOB and Hopkins was not ready for the elevation of the country which had him running on fumes after the 5th or 6th round and still managed to pull a draw in the other guy's hometown. Finally, the KO against Joe Lipsey. See it.

Losses/Negatives: Not much to criticize against Jones, he couldn't do much about Jones's insane speed and talent, especially at the level of boxing IQ he was at. The Taylor losses are another story. Sure, Hopkins was 40 and Taylor was much younger, faster and maybe a harder hitter but this is Hopkins we are talking about, age shouldn't be an issue. Despite showing glimpses that he could have been more active, Hopkins instead stayed in his shell for 8 rounds before turning it up in the 1st fight. In the 2nd one, despite talk that he would start faster, he did the same thing except Taylor seemed better conditioned than the 1st time and the late round surge from Hopkins was not as impressive as it had been before. The way he fought against Calzaghe might be worthy of criticism. Honestly, I thought that his gameplan of excessive holding was the best he could pull but if you want to point out his superior offense against Pavlik as proof that he could have done more then I won't argue with you. Also, his two biggest wins listed above happened to be against former welterweights and Wright was a blown up middleweight.

In the end I believe Hopkins edges it but only barely. The reason I give him the edge is because he beat better fighters later in his career. Remember that early on no big names wanted to fight him. Now however, he holds wins over bigger names than Jones. Sure, DLH and Trinidad were smaller men, but Hassine Cheriffi was bigger than Trinidad and he couldn't do what Hopkins did and even though Wright was bigger than Tito, he still couldn't put a beating on him like Hopkins did. Ditto for DLH who fought bigger guys in Castillejo, Vargas, Sturm but none could stop him. It was Hopkins's skill that did it, the size was just an extra advantage.

On a side note, I don't believe it to be accurate when people say Jones was all talent and no skill. Watch enough Jones video and you will see he knew how to use it. The way he set up his punches and counterpunches shows that he had good boxing IQ.

JLUVBABY
i voted for roy jones for one simple reason... at their very best p4p i dont see a way hopkins ever beats jones prime for prime... there is no way in my eyes hopkins can deal with the super human reflexes of prime roy jones... as good as hopkins would become after jones beat him i dont think he saw the skill level needed to ever beat a prime jones.. just my opinion... also roy beat more champions and ex champions than did hopkins if you want to look at it from that standpoint... you can argue that roy got knocked out and this and that but anyone that really knows the sport understands that was a past prime roy jones... hopkins only advantage in the argument is that he has been able to enjoy a longer shelf life than roy in the elite class of fights... either way you call it they are both great fighters...
King Eugene
MMM I give you nothing but props on that post man. That was Brilliant work!

JLuv I agree with you as well! Never thought about it that way. Roy did beat more champs and ex champs than Hopkins. He also moved through divisions which enabled him to do that as well.

"Got the nerve to say I aint fight nobody, I just make'em look like nobody! Yall musta forgot!"
laugh.gif
lyonheart
Roy Jones for me. Although I must say that Bhop's accomplishments are nothing less than great, I feel Roy Jones has the better resume. Jones..... eight time world champion in four different weight classes. Moved up to heavyweight and won the title froM jOHN rUIZ. What makes that accomplishment even more extraordinary is that the feat had not been reached in over one hundred years( Bob Fitzsimmons.) Yes, many people say Roy fought nobodies well, most of the guys he fought were world champs, or on the way to becoming world champs, even Eric Lucas. And, Bhop fought just as many "unknowns". I think what turns people off from Jones is that he got put to sleep by Johnson, Rocked by Tarver, and outgunned by Calzaghe. Hey , Ali lost to Leon Spinks in Spink's eigth pro fight!!!!! So, all of the legends eventually met their demise. Except Roy still feels he has something to prove so he continues. Bhop, is my man. 20 title defenses, reigned the middleweight division like none other. Had two controversial slips against Taylor, and lost the ugliest fight I have ever seen against Calzaghe. But he continues on... with that being said I think they both should hang it up and leave their legacies in tact. Yet, when you love something that much it's difficult. The energy and thrill and having that bell ring is like none other, for real, but when you have nothing left to prove, let it be. But, back to the point, Roy Jones has the greater pound for pound legacy.
BigG
Just want to add a few things...

1. Jones IS a legend and an ATG. His talent is 2nd to none, the fact that many FIGHTERS idolize him and call him one of the greats is enough for me to consider him a legend...just like Tyson...

2. Jones and Hopkins both would've destroyed Calslappy in their pime.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (BigG @ Aug 7 2009, 11:32 PM) *
Just want to add a few things...

1. Jones IS a legend and an ATG. His talent is 2nd to none, the fact that many FIGHTERS idolize him and call him one of the greats is enough for me to consider him a legend...just like Tyson...

2. Jones and Hopkins both would've destroyed Calslappy in their pime.


you damn right bigg they both beat the hell out of calzaghe in their respective primes.... jones for sure knocks him out...
Jack 1000
QUOTE (Mean Mister Mustard @ Aug 7 2009, 10:33 PM) *
I love the potential this thread has, despite the fact that is has been discussed numerous times in the past I feel that it is once again needed since we have not gone back to it in a good long while.

The logical thing to do here would be to list the competiton they beat. 2 categories: The big wins (career defning fights) and top competition (top contedners, maybe not really ATG or even HOF but solid guys considered top notch in their time). Also we have to analyze their performances and those "little extras" that left their mark. Think Mike Tyson being the youngest heavyweight champ ever or Floyd Patterson regaining the title from Johansen. And let's not forget their losses.

Roy Jones Jr Big wins: Bernard Hopkins. Yes, green at the time but so was Jones and no one at the time had given Jones such a fight, much less a loss. Jones showed he was the better fighter, for that night anyway. James Toney, undefeated, experienced and packing a punch, this fight would determine the top P4P fighter in the world. Many thought it was too lcose to call which is why it was so impressive to see Jones box circles around Toney en route to a near shut out performance. John Ruiz All right, not an ATG fighter or even a HOF fighter but he was bigger and heavier plus he had a nice jab and his clinching skills could have worn Jones down. Instead, Jones showed that his skills and talent were more than enough to beat the respected heavyweight contender. Personal favourite moments in that fight, seeing Jones stagger Ruiz and imagine him thinking "Oh shit, this guy can hurt me?", Stoney losing his mind in the corner and Jones's creepy shrieking when the decision was annoucned. Antonio Tarver He gets no love here, or any other place but Tarver is a good fighter. He had beaten Reggie Johnson, bludgeoned Montell Griffin and avenged his loss to Harding via KO to cement his status as the top contender. To me he is above the likes of a mere contender which is why he gets a spot here.

Top Competition: Montell Griffin, Reggie Johnson, MOntell Griffin, Lou Devalle, Otis Grant, Eric Lucas, Vinny Paz, Felix Trinidad (In here because he hadn't fought in 2 years and was above his best weight) Eric Harding, Clinton Woods, Julio Cesar Gonzalez, Virgil Hill.

Little Extras: Winning a round without being touched against Paz, the revenge against Griffin via KO in the 1st round, going up to Heavyweight and toying with Ruiz, knocking out Thulani Malinga ( I think) and making his eyes go up and white like Linda Blair and knocking out Hill with one explosive body shot. Of course, there is his most famous move, the "Look ma no hands" KO against Glen Kelly, which I found unsportsmanlike but equally impressive nonetheless. Winning multiple titles in different divisions, unifying the Lightheavyweight division and making it look easy. Oh and beating Tarver, he was damn near exhausted and showed heart by pulling his socks up and taking the 12th round.

Losses/negative feedback. Forget the DQ over Griffin or the KO loss in the 2nd Tarver fight ( Hey, almost every top fighter gets caught once). It's the 3rd Tarver fight that hurts him. He was still as quick and smart as he was in the 1st fight and also the 2nd fight in which he was controlling the action. In the 3rd fight however, he did noting bu run, shake his ass and try to make it without getting stopped. Especially bad considering he had a good 5th round and then suddenly decided he didn't want to take the risk of throwing combos again. Credit to Tarver for shutting him down? Sure, but discredit to Jones for not trying to do anything about it. What can be said about the Calzaghe fight other than the fact that Hopkins almots had Calzaghe on the scorecards while Jones could only win a couple of rounds and cover up for the rest of the night.

Hopkins Best wins: Felix Trinidad: P4P the best fighter in the world, knocking out everyone in his path. "The old man will fight like a lion" the people said "but how long before his age shows up?" It never did as Hopkins dismantled Trinidad en route to a 12th round stoppage. Oscar De La Hoya Speedy fighter with skills to match, he had been seemingly robbed against Mosley and got one of his own against Sturm as he showed up out of shape and overconfident. Not for this one though, this was premium DLH with a gameplan to beat the old man. Hopkins turned the tables on all those writers expecting him to chase DLH around the ring and insetad boxed from a distance, looking as quick if not quicker than DH to wear him down and end it with a bodyshot before he could really put a hurt on him. Did I mention Hopkins was 39 years old? Antonio Tarver, had gone to war against Johnson and beat him in the rematch and had petrified Roy Jones, the legend killer would strike once again right? Not quite, Hopkins toyed with Tarver en route to a 12 round UD. Winky Wright. 2 of the most crafty fighters of their time met to tango. Wright had beaten Mosley twice, shut out Trinidad and might have been robbed against Taylor. The fight was a bore for some but others were intrigued at how Hopkins dealt with Wright's turtle shell defence by making him miss, lugning in with shots and then holding. Cotto should watch this fight if he ever fights Clottey again. Kelly Pavlik the young lion was supposed to run Hopkins out of the ring, instead it was the old man who had Pavlik wondering what had just happened as X won a UD.

Top Competition: Segundo Mercado, Glen Johnson, John David Jackson, Robert Allen, Antwon Echols, William Joppy, Howard Eastman, Keith Holmes, Syd Vanderpool.

Little Extras: How about any of his wins after the age of 39? Beating down Glen Johnson at his own game, Making Joppy look like the elephant man after putting on an inside clinic on him, being the only man to KNOCKOUT Oscar De La Hoya and Tito Trinidad, fastest KO in a middleweight title defence against Steve Frank, fighting on with a dislocated shoulder against Echols in their rematch and his draw against Mercado in Equador where the crowd was nuts, Mercado was a hard hitting touch SOB and Hopkins was not ready for the elevation of the country which had him running on fumes after the 5th or 6th round and still managed to pull a draw in the other guy's hometown. Finally, the KO against Joe Lipsey. See it.

Losses/Negatives: Not much to criticize against Jones, he couldn't do much about Jones's insane speed and talent, especially at the level of boxing IQ he was at. The Taylor losses are another story. Sure, Hopkins was 40 and Taylor was much younger, faster and maybe a harder hitter but this is Hopkins we are talking about, age shouldn't be an issue. Despite showing glimpses that he could have been more active, Hopkins instead stayed in his shell for 8 rounds before turning it up in the 1st fight. In the 2nd one, despite talk that he would start faster, he did the same thing except Taylor seemed better conditioned than the 1st time and the late round surge from Hopkins was not as impressive as it had been before. The way he fought against Calzaghe might be worthy of criticism. Honestly, I thought that his gameplan of excessive holding was the best he could pull but if you want to point out his superior offense against Pavlik as proof that he could have done more then I won't argue with you. Also, his two biggest wins listed above happened to be against former welterweights and Wright was a blown up middleweight.

In the end I believe Hopkins edges it but only barely. The reason I give him the edge is because he beat better fighters later in his career. Remember that early on no big names wanted to fight him. Now however, he holds wins over bigger names than Jones. Sure, DLH and Trinidad were smaller men, but Hassine Cheriffi was bigger than Trinidad and he couldn't do what Hopkins did and even though Wright was bigger than Tito, he still couldn't put a beating on him like Hopkins did. Ditto for DLH who fought bigger guys in Castillejo, Vargas, Sturm but none could stop him. It was Hopkins's skill that did it, the size was just an extra advantage.

On a side note, I don't believe it to be accurate when people say Jones was all talent and no skill. Watch enough Jones video and you will see he knew how to use it. The way he set up his punches and counterpunches shows that he had good boxing IQ.



Mustard,

This may go down as one of the greatest posts of all time for the board for thought and insight! WOW! That was GREAT!!!

Jack
King Eugene
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Aug 8 2009, 12:40 AM) *
you damn right bigg they both beat the hell out of calzaghe in their respective primes.... jones for sure knocks him out...

Especially if they both could drop him in the first round at this age. It would have looked like Jones vs. Byrd
D-MARV
Roy Jones Jr. won titles at 160, 168, 175 and Heayweight. Hopkins dominated 160 for years but his 175 resume has been less then incredible. There is no doubt in my mind Roy is the better fighter P4P. In Roy's prime, it would be hard for me to pick anyone against him in any era. Hopkins is a great fighter and can will probably go down as the "greater" fighter. But when you take the 2 fighters and place them in their primes, I have to roll with Roy.
King Eugene
Middleweight to Heavyweight!

Should have retired after Ruiz!
Keith
RJJ. You can count on 1 hand how many rounds he lost in his prime.
getup

Roys Jones Jr. and I don't even think it's that close to be honest.

In their respective primes I would be hard pressed to pick anyone against Roy, much less Bernard.

Out of prime? Hopkins faired better but I don't like that argument because it's not like Roy had a short run at the very top (we're talking a freaken decade). Hopkins nor anyone else in the era can come close to that. Kareem Abdul Jabbar was much more effective than Jordan at age 39, does that mean he was better than Michael? Agassi was higly competitive at age 35 while Sampras struggled post 30, so does one conclude that Andre will be ranked historically higher than Pete?

Hopkins is great but jeez guys c'mon Roy was ridiculous and once again unlike the phenom of Tyson, Jones did it for a long, long time.

It's unfortunate they never had a rematch in early 2000's but it is what it is.

D-MARV
QUOTE (getup @ Aug 8 2009, 09:36 AM) *
Roys Jones Jr. and I don't even think it's that close to be honest.

In their respective primes I would be hard pressed to pick anyone against Roy, much less Bernard.

Out of prime? Hopkins faired better but I don't like that argument because it's not like Roy had a short run at the very top (we're talking a freaken decade). Hopkins nor anyone else in the era can come close to that. Kareem Abdul Jabbar was much more effective than Jordan at age 39, does that mean he was better than Michael? Agassi was higly competitive at age 35 while Sampras struggled post 30, so does one conclude that Andre will be ranked historically higher than Pete?

Hopkins is great but jeez guys c'mon Roy was ridiculous and once again unlike the phenom of Tyson, Jones did it for a long, long time.

It's unfortunate they never had a rematch in early 2000's but it is what it is.

Good Post!
Mean Mister Mustard
QUOTE (getup @ Aug 8 2009, 09:36 AM) *
Roys Jones Jr. and I don't even think it's that close to be honest.

In their respective primes I would be hard pressed to pick anyone against Roy, much less Bernard.

Out of prime? Hopkins faired better but I don't like that argument because it's not like Roy had a short run at the very top (we're talking a freaken decade). Hopkins nor anyone else in the era can come close to that. Kareem Abdul Jabbar was much more effective than Jordan at age 39, does that mean he was better than Michael? Agassi was higly competitive at age 35 while Sampras struggled post 30, so does one conclude that Andre will be ranked historically higher than Pete?

Hopkins is great but jeez guys c'mon Roy was ridiculous and once again unlike the phenom of Tyson, Jones did it for a long, long time.

It's unfortunate they never had a rematch in early 2000's but it is what it is.


I think the race betwen these 2 guys is very close and would not really have a problem whether people chose Jones or Hopkins but...

QUOTE
Hopkins faired better but I don't like that argument because it's not like Roy had a short run at the very top (we're talking a freaken decade).



So did Hopkins, plus he beat better competition after 2005 while Jones's best win after 05 was over Trinidad.

QUOTE
Kareem Abdul Jabbar was much more effective than Jordan at age 39, does that mean he was better than Michael?


I guess it would depend if Jabbar had a similar career in terms of accomplishments as JOrdan but was still able to perform at a high level in his late 30's.

It's interesting to compare their careers. Jones had fought better competition between 93-99 and then only had two big wins after that while Hopkins fought nothing but tough pugs between 95-2000 and then started beating the big names. One started strong, the other is finishing strong.

By the way, head to head, if Jones and Hopkins would have met in 2002, I think Jones would have beaten him.
hitman
roy hands down.
Romulus9
QUOTE (damarvelous1 @ Aug 8 2009, 02:45 AM) *
Roy Jones Jr. won titles at 160, 168, 175 and Heayweight. Hopkins dominated 160 for years but his 175 resume has been less then incredible. There is no doubt in my mind Roy is the better fighter P4P. In Roy's prime, it would be hard for me to pick anyone against him in any era. Hopkins is a great fighter and can will probably go down as the "greater" fighter. But when you take the 2 fighters and place them in their primes, I have to roll with Roy.



Agreed, and I'll add one thing.

You can argue that no champion in the history of boxing had a prime title reign in which his margin of victory was larger than that of Jones at 160 and 168. Not just the victories but the margin of victory, the level of absolute dominance.

A prime Jones is one of the best fighters of all-time, and I can't think of a super middleweight that I'd pick over him, and the only middleweight I'd really call it an even fight with is Hagler.
rusty_trombone
Did you see the left hook that James Toney got? I believe it was a sucker move he stole from a gamecock.
provo
It really don't matter what any of us think about who's better !
B-hop and Roy gotta fight eachother and Roy don't want 2 if they do B-hop will knock roy out! .
I met B-hop in Los angeles for the De la hoya forbes fight .I said what's sup b hop when u stepping in with roy ..he said "u want see that huh ? Everyone does but that man is scared of me I'll lay his ass out"...lol..
Then he looked at some dude in a suit and said u see that ,that's what people want..
Roy is weak and done now !
rusty_trombone
QUOTE (provo @ Aug 8 2009, 07:40 PM) *
I met B-hop in Los angeles for the De la hoya forbes fight .I said what's sup b hop when u stepping in with roy ..he said "u want see that huh ? Everyone does but that man is scared of me I'll lay his ass out"...lol..
Then he looked at some dude in a suit and said u see that ,that's what people want..

I nominate this for "snippet of the year"
getup
QUOTE (Mean Mister Mustard @ Aug 8 2009, 02:37 PM) *
I think the race betwen these 2 guys is very close and would not really have a problem whether people chose Jones or Hopkins but...




So did Hopkins, plus he beat better competition after 2005 while Jones's best win after 05 was over Trinidad.



I guess it would depend if Jabbar had a similar career in terms of accomplishments as JOrdan but was still able to perform at a high level in his late 30's.

It's interesting to compare their careers. Jones had fought better competition between 93-99 and then only had two big wins after that while Hopkins fought nothing but tough pugs between 95-2000 and then started beating the big names. One started strong, the other is finishing strong.

By the way, head to head, if Jones and Hopkins would have met in 2002, I think Jones would have beaten him.



When I say the "top" I'm referring to arguably being the very best (p4p) in the sport.....as pointed out, Bernard nor anyone else from the era could say that.

Kareem had similar career accomplushments to Michael (both dominant forces, both part of the elite 30,000+ points club, both 6 time nba champs) plus he was still a top force at 39+.....but you'll be hard pressed to find anyone who says that Kareem was greater than Michael because he stood up better in middle age.

Anyway, I respect both fighters.

Method
QUOTE
You can argue that no champion in the history of boxing had a prime title reign in which his margin of victory was larger than that of Jones at 160 and 168. Not just the victories but the margin of victory, the level of absolute dominance.


That's just COMPLETE smoke and fucking mirrors. Jones' "level of absolute dominance" was against fucking TOMATO CANS. Glenn Kelly's. Julio Whatevers. Ricky Ticky Tavvy's. He stepped up to heavy and fought the biggest palooka the division has known in a LONG TIME. When he stepped to real competition, he got his motherfucking clock cleaned...FOUR fucking times (yeah, I INCLUDED the FIRST Tarver fight, which should have been a draw, at WORST). Against Glenn Johnson, Roy didnt win a second of any of the nine rounds.

With Jones, you could also argue that "no champion in the history of boxing fought as shitty a competition as Roy Jones" as well.
Mean Mister Mustard
QUOTE (getup @ Aug 9 2009, 10:38 AM) *
When I say the "top" I'm referring to arguably being the very best (p4p) in the sport.....as pointed out, Bernard nor anyone else from the era could say that.

Kareem had similar career accomplushments to Michael (both dominant forces, both part of the elite 30,000+ points club, both 6 time nba champs) plus he was still a top force at 39+.....but you'll be hard pressed to find anyone who says that Kareem was greater than Michael because he stood up better in middle age.

Anyway, I respect both fighters.


But remember that we are talking about their overall career. Let me put it this way. Say Jones's fight against Lacy is his last one and he beats Lacy via UD. Hopkins on the other hand fight Adamek at 200 pounds and wins the Cruiserweight belt making him a Legitimate 3 time world champion and that is his final fight. Now in this case Hopkins would, I believe, have an advantage over Jones in terms of accomplishments and competition. Yes Jones started out beating better opponents earlier than Hopkins did but then he stopped fighting the best around 2000-2004 and finally, when he got older, no more big wins appear on his resume while Hopkins is still picking up big wins, coupled with his 20 middleweight defenses. Overall Hopkins would have the better career.
Method
...and PLEASE shut the fuck up w the Kareem and Michael comparison...TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT POSITIONS requiring differing skill sets and different levels of responsibility.

I love all the no-namers this thread has summoned.
MarzB
I don't have an opinion either way in this fight but for Roy Jones, it can be argued he didn't fight.

Nigel Benn, Chris Eubank, Darius Michelchewski(sp?), Frankie Lyles, Michael Nunn and Steve Collins. Most of those he would have faced at 168 save for Darius but lets ask this question. Eubank and Benn were on their ways out but even in their primes does anyone think Roy would have had problems with anyone on this list? Frankie Lyles (who he fought in the amateurs) and a prime well ready Michael Nunn are the only guys on that list I see really being tough and thats namely because they both were skilled southpaws..

I don't blame Jones for not going to Germany to fight Darius. That dude was soo overrated its unreal.

Jones "garbageman", "fireman", "policeman" string definitely did NOT bode very well for him when you look at his career evaluation. Weight drained or not, how he outboxed "SUPER BOXER" (IMO) James Toney is/was very impressive.

Hopkins said it himself (after the Tarver fight) that he could have went up to light heavyweight years prior. I've it also said that Roy told Hopkins that if he wanted to make real money, stop campaigning for a fight against him and go after the Trinidads and DLHoya's. In fact I heard that Roy Jones went to Don King and said in advance that Hopkins would destroy Trinidad but Don didn't believe him. I'm only mentioning that because god forbid had Hopkins lost we sure would have seen a Trindad vs. Jones earlier than it occurred.



PS: Good writeup MMM
Method
QUOTE
even in their primes does anyone think Roy would have had problems with anyone on this list?


Not any more than anyone thought he would have gotten beat every second of every round before being brutally knocked the fuck out by Glenn fucking Johnson.

That's why we fight the fights.

Greatness should be proven, not conceded.
D-MARV
Are we talking about resumes or P4P accomplishments?

P4P, Roy is head and shoulders above Hopkins
Sugar Q
QUOTE (damarvelous1 @ Aug 8 2009, 02:45 AM) *
Roy Jones Jr. won titles at 160, 168, 175 and Heayweight. Hopkins dominated 160 for years but his 175 resume has been less then incredible. There is no doubt in my mind Roy is the better fighter P4P. In Roy's prime, it would be hard for me to pick anyone against him in any era. Hopkins is a great fighter and can will probably go down as the "greater" fighter. But when you take the 2 fighters and place them in their primes, I have to roll with Roy.



D we're on the same page with this one. There really is no comparison Roy had a FAR greater career than Bernard in my book. To go from 160 to heavy-wt aint no joke. Roy's biggest mistake was his ego that allowed him to think that he was superman by gaining all that muscle then coming back down for Tarver. Very stupid, egotistical move. Had Roy not done that people might be calling him the greatest of all time. B-Hop had a great career but it doesn't compare to winning the Heavy-wt championship of the world against a tough, durable Ruiz.
Method
QUOTE
P4P, Roy is head and shoulders above Hopkins


You never struck me as being that intelligent, but, P4P, you're a fucking moron if you really believe this.

Hopkins from a technical boxing standpoint, does pretty much everything BETTER than Jones, and that's why he's able to kick ass and take names into his mid forties while Roy Jones is fighting in corn fields.
D-MARV
QUOTE (Method @ Aug 9 2009, 01:01 PM) *
You never struck me as being that intelligent, but, P4P, you're a fucking moron if you really believe this.

Hopkins from a technical boxing standpoint, does pretty much everything BETTER than Jones, and that's why he's able to kick ass and take names into his mid forties while Roy Jones is fighting in corn fields.

And you always struck me as being an OLD, disgruntled man who swings from Hopkins nuts. It's whatever though.

Hopkins is BY FAR the better technical fighter. I have never debated that. But we're talking P4P in this thread. It seems like you, and many others have turned this into a battle of who has the best resume or who has the better technique. Im a huge fan of both! Roy is better P4P.
Mean Mister Mustard
QUOTE (damarvelous1 @ Aug 9 2009, 01:54 PM) *
And you always struck me as being an OLD, disgruntled man who swings from Hopkins nuts. It's whatever though.

Hopkins is BY FAR the better technical fighter. I have never debated that. But we're talking P4P in this thread. It seems like you, and many others have turned this into a battle of who has the best resume or who has the better technique. Im a huge fan of both! Roy is better P4P.


Well that's what determines P4P standings. If the question was "Who spent more time as the #1 P4P fighter" then that would have to be Jones but I believe the original question is "Who Is Greater In P4P Accompishments". Like I said, Jones started out beating better opponents but as he started being past his prime his comp level decreased while Hopkins's increased. It still a very close call here.
D-MARV
QUOTE (Mean Mister Mustard @ Aug 9 2009, 02:14 PM) *
Well that's what determines P4P standings. If the question was "Who spent more time as the #1 P4P fighter" then that would have to be Jones but I believe the original question is "Who Is Greater In P4P Accompishments". Like I said, Jones started out beating better opponents but as he started being past his prime his comp level decreased while Hopkins's increased. It still a very close call here.

Hopkins has the better resume (not by much). Roy carried his skills and ability from 160 to 200 picking up numerous titles on the way. Couple that with his Head to Head win over Hopkins, I have to give Roy the edge in terms of accomplishments.
Mean Mister Mustard
QUOTE (damarvelous1 @ Aug 9 2009, 01:33 PM) *
Hopkins has the better resume (not by much). Roy carried his skills and ability from 160 to 200 picking up numerous titles on the way. Couple that with his Head to Head win over Hopkins, I have to give Roy the edge in terms of accomplishments.


Yeah the race is close. I think if Hopkins gets that fight with Adamek and beats him he would have a lead over Jones. However, if Jones beats Lacy and gets a big fight, he might balance things out. If I were Jones I'd go over to Germany and fight Erdei. He's doesn't hold the true championship (although that can be argued) but he is undefeated and beating him in his backyard would be quite an accomplishment and wouldn't hurt Jones's resume. It is a lot better than beating an inactive Sheika and an underacheiving Lacy.
thehype
Still too difficult to call in my opinion, but at first thought, Roy seems to pop up in my mind before Hopkins. Not saying that he was actually better...just my initial thought when I first saw the title of the thread.
Douchebag
I'm rolling with B-Hop.
Method
QUOTE
And you always struck me as being an OLD, disgruntled man who swings from Hopkins nuts. It's whatever though.


Yet you swing FUCK hard from Williams and Jones, you have no idea my age, my level of life comfort, and, most IMPORTANTLY, you have never been able to intellectually challenge me in a boxing debate..."but it's "whatever" though"

QUOTE
It seems like you, and many others have turned this into a battle of who has the best resume or who has the better technique.


...and if YOU can actually TYPE what I just quoted, and NOT see that THAT would pretty much ILLUSTRATE P4P, than you really should be relegated to the shallow end of this discussion pool.

Look, this aint about ANYONE having Jones above Hopkins, its ABOUT the statements made to support it. And I just haven't seen anything in this thread from anyone that's calling Jones' name that holds water. Further, I'm fairly certain I could pretty much checkmate anyone calling for Jones here. Thats just the reality of it.
D-MARV
QUOTE (Method @ Aug 9 2009, 06:50 PM) *
...and if YOU can actually TYPE what I just quoted, and NOT see that THAT would pretty much ILLUSTRATE P4P, than you really should be relegated to the shallow end of this discussion pool.

Look, this aint about ANYONE having Jones above Hopkins, its ABOUT the statements made to support it. And I just haven't seen anything from anyone that calling Jones' name tat holds water. Further, I'm fairly certain I could pretty much checkmate anyone calling for Jones here. Thats just the reality of it.

I'm waiting for that Checkmate...

Method
QUOTE
I'm waiting for that Checkmate...


And you're dumber than I thought (if that is even POSSIBLE).

I'll tell you what, You make a cognizant case for your boy toy Roy, and I promise you you'll be mated and mounted (as being mounted is the position you seem to prefer).

If you are really waiting for a checkmate, after your baseless, claimless, assetrtion that "Roy Jones is P4P head and shoulders above Hopkins", you're fucking hopeless, and are not worthy of my counsel.
Keith
The milks gone bad...
King Eugene
Jones had the better Prime

Hopkins maintained throughout the years while Jones slowly declined!

Therefor tends to standout more in the present.
D-MARV
QUOTE (Method @ Aug 9 2009, 08:43 PM) *
And you're dumber than I thought (if that is even POSSIBLE).

I'll tell you what, You make a cognizant case for your boy toy Roy, and I promise you you'll be mated and mounted (as being mounted is the position you seem to prefer).

If you are really waiting for a checkmate, after your baseless, claimless, assetrtion that "Roy Jones is P4P head and shoulders above Hopkins", you're fucking hopeless, and are not worthy of my counsel.

LOL... Roy is my Boy Toy but when I say he's better than Hopkins you are the one that PMS's...


Fuck You!
lyonheart
My goodness, Roy haters are ever present around here. Anyways, I just came over from boxingscene.com but the site is garbage and caused computer problems for me. I was hoping to find some good people that know boxing but there are haters everywhere you go. For anyone to deny Roy's accomplisments, as if they could do it themselves, makes me laugh. His greatness was allready proven, not conceded. He fought plenty of world cahmpions and people that eventually became champions. So that "he fought nobody nonsense is exactly that, nonsense. People argue he fought and past his prime Mc Callum. Okay, tell me this how old was Roy and Bhop when Calzaghe fought them? People give credit to Tarver for beating the likes of Reggie Johnson, but forget Roy destroted him years prior before Tarver was even a thought. Tarver came along AT THE RIGHT TIME AND THAT WAS IT. Hopkins fought no names a s well, but people forget that. If you dig into boxing archives, as I mentioned in my last post, that the great Muhammed Ali lost to Leon Spinks, in Spink's eigth career pro fight, how do you figure that. I am not saying that Hop isn't great, I appreciate his style just as much as I appreciate Roy's. I grew up with both of them as their careers got started and I think that it is ridiculous to see some folks deny greatness when they don't have the courage to step in there and see for themselves. The are truly the faces of the last generation of boxing and it is my sincerest hope that the next up n comers taste that kind of success. I hope I am one of them, I'll keep working, yall beblessed. Roy has the better resume of accomplishments, Hop had the better after prime career. They both are legends and my hat goes off to them both. Be Blessed.
gonefishing
QUOTE (damarvelous1 @ Aug 8 2009, 01:45 AM) *
Roy Jones Jr. won titles at 160, 168, 175 and Heayweight. Hopkins dominated 160 for years but his 175 resume has been less then incredible. There is no doubt in my mind Roy is the better fighter P4P. In Roy's prime, it would be hard for me to pick anyone against him in any era. Hopkins is a great fighter and can will probably go down as the "greater" fighter. But when you take the 2 fighters and place them in their primes, I have to roll with Roy.


i think hopkins is better. rjj got knocked out ice cold to a journeyman as well. don't forget that at heavyweight jones fought the weakest champion and ruiz had restrictions from the referee.
gonefishing
he also got knocked out in real life from the same actor that plays mason dixon in the newest rocky movie.
Method
QUOTE
Roy is my Boy Toy but when I say he's better than Hopkins


No, you said "head and shoulders above".
jlupi
Jones for sure at his peak. If you want too factor in longjevity I can see an argument for hops
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