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dominicbuilder9k1
Woooaahhh... I was surprised to see the P4P Yahoo votes favoring Pacman a big big lead against Mayweather Jr...What's your opinion?...
The CEO
QUOTE (dominicbuilder9k1 @ Sep 29 2009, 08:48 PM) *
Woooaahhh... I was surprised to see the P4P Yahoo votes favoring Pacman a big big lead against Mayweather Jr...What's your opinion?...


The fix is in...
Spyder
Yahoo is HUGE in the Philipines. Floyd fans like Google.
JLUVBABY
I don't put too much stock in any polls involving the name Manny Pacquiao simply because every single Filipino on this planet will make sure they vote for Manny.

laugh.gif
AussieLad
Well, no surpise the pac fans would overwhelm that poll...

But at the same time i dont believe the result is wrong, he should be ranked over floyd. Floyds been inactive for 2 years, then beats up a man who should be fighting 2 divisions below welter, and at the same time fails to make the stipulated weight maximising his already overwhelming physical advantages... that doesnt cut it to put him back as p4p 1 legitimately IMO

Floyd needs a real top welter, ie he needs mosely to put him back. And if pac beats cotto, then not even beating mosely would be enough to move him back up. He would need to face pac then. But of course, floyd wont fight mosely. He will instead hope for pac to lose vs cotto, at which point people will annoint him no.1 by default, despite not having actually done anything to warrant it
gbh32001
QUOTE (AussieLad @ Sep 30 2009, 06:01 PM) *
Well, no surpise the pac fans would overwhelm that poll...

But at the same time i dont believe the result is wrong, he should be ranked over floyd. Floyds been inactive for 2 years, then beats up a man who should be fighting 2 divisions below welter, and at the same time fails to make the stipulated weight maximising his already overwhelming physical advantages... that doesnt cut it to put him back as p4p 1 legitimately IMO

Floyd needs a real top welter, ie he needs mosely to put him back. And if pac beats cotto, then not even beating mosely would be enough to move him back up. He would need to face pac then. But of course, floyd wont fight mosely. He will instead hope for pac to lose vs cotto, at which point people will annoint him no.1 by default, despite not having actually done anything to warrant it
Pacman reigns, Floyd sit at his throne as undisputed P4P king. We have two best boxer and fighter in this generation.One is a bad guy, the other is a good guy. If we let this two fight each other it will be a disaster of the sport. Let Floyd and Manny stand their ground as a positive and negative pole of boxing.
yuca
QUOTE (gbh32001 @ Sep 30 2009, 07:49 AM) *
Pacman reigns, Floyd sit at his throne as undisputed P4P king. We have two best boxer and fighter in this generation.One is a bad guy, the other is a good guy. If we let this two fight each other it will be a disaster of the sport. Let Floyd and Manny stand their ground as a positive and negative pole of boxing.

You completely lost me on that remark. How can it be a disaster for the sport? Unless FMJ completely outclasses Pac, which is not completely out of the question, then we should have a very entertaining fight, and if it is competitive then we could even get a rematch. Of course that's if he gets past Cotto.
leonthegee
pacquiaos gonna get a shive stuck in his ass prison style.
Byrd Man
Pacquaio has the huge advantage in any online poll because everyone knows the Filipinos and those racist crackers will vote for Pacman over Floyd.

Floyd just can't catch a break.
provo
QUOTE (Spyder @ Sep 29 2009, 06:47 PM) *
Yahoo is HUGE in the Philipines. Floyd fans like Google.


Asians are good with computers! So there probably on there the most then anyother race LOL...
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (provo @ Sep 30 2009, 07:45 PM) *
Asians are good with computers! So there probably on there the most then anyother race LOL...


damn provo... lol....
bigdaddy7881
QUOTE (dominicbuilder9k1 @ Sep 29 2009, 08:48 PM) *
Woooaahhh... I was surprised to see the P4P Yahoo votes favoring Pacman a big big lead against Mayweather Jr...What's your opinion?...

no doubt pacmans proved it
Fadetwist
Im not surprised. Pac just brings a lot of excitement into his fights.

As for PBF the last fight he had was a snorefest.
thehype
QUOTE (AussieLad @ Sep 30 2009, 06:01 AM) *
Well, no surpise the pac fans would overwhelm that poll...

But at the same time i dont believe the result is wrong, he should be ranked over floyd. Floyds been inactive for 2 years, then beats up a man who should be fighting 2 divisions below welter, and at the same time fails to make the stipulated weight maximising his already overwhelming physical advantages... that doesnt cut it to put him back as p4p 1 legitimately IMO

Floyd needs a real top welter, ie he needs mosely to put him back. And if pac beats cotto, then not even beating mosely would be enough to move him back up. He would need to face pac then. But of course, floyd wont fight mosely. He will instead hope for pac to lose vs cotto, at which point people will annoint him no.1 by default, despite not having actually done anything to warrant it


What has Pacquiao done to earn it though? I mean, since Floyd retired, what exactly has Pacquiao done to "earn" the #1 spot? Floyd retired after he beat Hatton in December of 2007. Since then, Manny would NARROWLY beat Juan Manuel Marquez at super featherweight. Then he moved up to lightweight. It would have been nice to see him face a "real top" lightweight...say someone like Juan Diaz, Joel Casamayor or Nate Campbell...but he didn't...instead he fought and beat David Diaz. Then he moves up again and beat De La Hoya and Hatton...two guys that Floyd had already beat. So basically, by virtue of beating guys that Floyd already beat, Manny was given the #1 spot. Okay...fine...whatever...so now Floyd comes back, and beats the dog crap out of a guy that Manny NARROWLY defeated, and you're saying he doesn't deserve the top spot? I don't know man....sounds like there are some holes in that theory.

Yeah, yeah, yeah...I hear ya...Floyd beat a guy that was smaller than him in Marquez. Well, okay...guess what? Manny's gonna be smaller than him too. So if Floyd wants to regain that #1 spot, is it okay for him to go and beat the crap out of Manny too? Probably not since Manny isn't a "real top" welterweight either. LOL.

Let's keep in mind that P4P was NOT created to determine who the most entertaining or exciting fighter is out there. P4P means the guy is such a badass motherfucker, that no one, no matter what weight they fight at, can beat him. Quite frankly, I have no clue how someone at any weight can beat Floyd. The guy is undefeated...he hasn't been beat. Pacquiao, on the other hand, is beatable...hell, he lost just four years ago and narrowly escaped another loss just last year. Not knocking Manny or anything, but honestly, the guy has holes in his game and any time he fights someone who knows how to box from the outside, he struggles.

To determine which guy is better P4P, the equation is simple...if you put Manny Pacquiao and Floyd Mayweather Jr. in the ring together, who do you think will win?

For me, the answer is so plain to see, even Ray Charles could see it...haha...Floyd Mayweather Jr. comes out of that fight on top...and as such, I rank him above Manny Pacquiao when it comes to my P4P list.

Hell, truth be told, I think you could make a strong argument that Paul Williams should be right behind Floyd in the #2 spot. Then maybe Manny at #3 (Sorry Meth, but I think he outworks old ass Hopkins), followed by Hopkins at #4 then maybe Mosley at #5. I don't know...something like that...it's all subjective, but that being said, I do think Floyd Mayweather Jr. is the better fighter of the two. I mean, there's a reason why his fights are so boring...the guy just knows how to shut down whatever his opponents are trying to do. You can blame Floyd if you want for that, but in my opinion, some of the blame lies with the guy who's trying to beat him.
caneman
QUOTE (thehype @ Oct 1 2009, 05:54 PM) *
What has Pacquiao done to earn it though? I mean, since Floyd retired, what exactly has Pacquiao done to "earn" the #1 spot? Floyd retired after he beat Hatton in December of 2007. Since then, Manny would NARROWLY beat Juan Manuel Marquez at super featherweight. Then he moved up to lightweight. It would have been nice to see him face a "real top" lightweight...say someone like Juan Diaz, Joel Casamayor or Nate Campbell...but he didn't...instead he fought and beat David Diaz. Then he moves up again and beat De La Hoya and Hatton...two guys that Floyd had already beat. So basically, by virtue of beating guys that Floyd already beat, Manny was given the #1 spot. Okay...fine...whatever...so now Floyd comes back, and beats the dog crap out of a guy that Manny NARROWLY defeated, and you're saying he doesn't deserve the top spot? I don't know man....sounds like there are some holes in that theory.

Yeah, yeah, yeah...I hear ya...Floyd beat a guy that was smaller than him in Marquez. Well, okay...guess what? Manny's gonna be smaller than him too. So if Floyd wants to regain that #1 spot, is it okay for him to go and beat the crap out of Manny too? Probably not since Manny isn't a "real top" welterweight either. LOL.

Let's keep in mind that P4P was NOT created to determine who the most entertaining or exciting fighter is out there. P4P means the guy is such a badass motherfucker, that no one, no matter what weight they fight at, can beat him. Quite frankly, I have no clue how someone at any weight can beat Floyd. The guy is undefeated...he hasn't been beat. Pacquiao, on the other hand, is beatable...hell, he lost just four years ago and narrowly escaped another loss just last year. Not knocking Manny or anything, but honestly, the guy has holes in his game and any time he fights someone who knows how to box from the outside, he struggles.

To determine which guy is better P4P, the equation is simple...if you put Manny Pacquiao and Floyd Mayweather Jr. in the ring together, who do you think will win?

For me, the answer is so plain to see, even Ray Charles could see it...haha...Floyd Mayweather Jr. comes out of that fight on top...and as such, I rank him above Manny Pacquiao when it comes to my P4P list.



Hell, truth be told, I think you could make a strong argument that Paul Williams should be right behind Floyd in the #2 spot. Then maybe Manny at #3 (Sorry Meth, but I think he outworks old ass Hopkins), followed by Hopkins at #4 then maybe Mosley at #5. I don't know...something like that...it's all subjective, but that being said, I do think Floyd Mayweather Jr. is the better fighter of the two. I mean, there's a reason why his fights are so boring...the guy just knows how to shut down whatever his opponents are trying to do. You can blame Floyd if you want for that, but in my opinion, some of the blame lies with the guy who's trying to beat him.



I can see your reasoning but Pacman would have stopped that version of JMM , not just beat the shit outta him IMO & I do agree that PWilliams has a case & with a very good reason but unless something happens, his time will come along with Dawson if he is for real! Personally (for now) I still have Pacman but that could change after the Cotto fight let alone with what happens with PWilliams/Pavlik! JMM drops off a lot with his last 2 fights & mind you he did win one of those by KO but he was losing & about to lose 8 rounds to 4 on my card based on what I was seeing! Just my opinion & BTW I do give JMM some credit for stopping Diaz & casa but I think he is all but done even though he could make some noise @ 135 but Pacman would mess JMM up right now @ any weight! BTW if Pacman & PBF met @ 147, PBF would win 8-4 but @ 140 I got Pacman 115-113!
Fitz
QUOTE (thehype @ Oct 2 2009, 07:54 AM) *
What has Pacquiao done to earn it though? I mean, since Floyd retired, what exactly has Pacquiao done to "earn" the #1 spot? Floyd retired after he beat Hatton in December of 2007. Since then, Manny would NARROWLY beat Juan Manuel Marquez at super featherweight. Then he moved up to lightweight. It would have been nice to see him face a "real top" lightweight...say someone like Juan Diaz, Joel Casamayor or Nate Campbell...but he didn't...instead he fought and beat David Diaz. Then he moves up again and beat De La Hoya and Hatton...two guys that Floyd had already beat. So basically, by virtue of beating guys that Floyd already beat, Manny was given the #1 spot. Okay...fine...whatever...so now Floyd comes back, and beats the dog crap out of a guy that Manny NARROWLY defeated, and you're saying he doesn't deserve the top spot? I don't know man....sounds like there are some holes in that theory.

Yeah, yeah, yeah...I hear ya...Floyd beat a guy that was smaller than him in Marquez. Well, okay...guess what? Manny's gonna be smaller than him too. So if Floyd wants to regain that #1 spot, is it okay for him to go and beat the crap out of Manny too? Probably not since Manny isn't a "real top" welterweight either. LOL.

Let's keep in mind that P4P was NOT created to determine who the most entertaining or exciting fighter is out there. P4P means the guy is such a badass motherfucker, that no one, no matter what weight they fight at, can beat him. Quite frankly, I have no clue how someone at any weight can beat Floyd. The guy is undefeated...he hasn't been beat. Pacquiao, on the other hand, is beatable...hell, he lost just four years ago and narrowly escaped another loss just last year. Not knocking Manny or anything, but honestly, the guy has holes in his game and any time he fights someone who knows how to box from the outside, he struggles.

To determine which guy is better P4P, the equation is simple...if you put Manny Pacquiao and Floyd Mayweather Jr. in the ring together, who do you think will win?

For me, the answer is so plain to see, even Ray Charles could see it...haha...Floyd Mayweather Jr. comes out of that fight on top...and as such, I rank him above Manny Pacquiao when it comes to my P4P list.

Hell, truth be told, I think you could make a strong argument that Paul Williams should be right behind Floyd in the #2 spot. Then maybe Manny at #3 (Sorry Meth, but I think he outworks old ass Hopkins), followed by Hopkins at #4 then maybe Mosley at #5. I don't know...something like that...it's all subjective, but that being said, I do think Floyd Mayweather Jr. is the better fighter of the two. I mean, there's a reason why his fights are so boring...the guy just knows how to shut down whatever his opponents are trying to do. You can blame Floyd if you want for that, but in my opinion, some of the blame lies with the guy who's trying to beat him.


You make points, but it seems like you are basing p4p on just skill a lone. I agree that Mayweather is better skill wise, but guess what? Pacquiao has challenged himself and taken risks while Mayweather hasn't.
AussieLad
There is no disputing floyds run below 140. Impressive wins against good opposition, with one debatable win over castillo that was emphatically redeemed in the rematch.

However, at 140 and above this oppositin tapered off significantly. He hasnt faced an elite fighter in these divisions, that has been natural to that weight. And so, we are rating his current status on the "perception of talent" rather than something that has been quantified and demonstrated in the ring in the last several years. Unless he has faced a top welter, how can he be ranked at welter?

Pacs the p4p no.1 but he isnt ranked the best at welter. But at least he is fighting a top 2 welter next. Floyd could do the same if he signed to fight mosely, but he is dodging that fight. So if a pbf wont fight the best in his current division, hasnt fought the best in a number of years, and there is no quantified demonstration of his abilities at 140+, how can he be ranked no.1?

Floyd simply needs to fight a live opponent. Simple as that. Without the accomplishments to back it up, the perception of talent is not enough
Fitz
QUOTE (AussieLad @ Oct 2 2009, 10:38 AM) *
Floyd simply needs to fight a live opponent. Simple as that. Without the accomplishments to back it up, the perception of talent is not enough


And it's simple as that and that's the bottom line. People just talk about what Floyd would do, but we never see it in practice.
Fadetwist
QUOTE (Fitz @ Oct 1 2009, 08:43 PM) *
And it's simple as that and that's the bottom line. People just talk about what Floyd would do, but we never see it in practice.



We all know what Floyd can do, put people to sleep and I dont mean knocking out his opponent, I mean the crowd.

I agree the P4P rankings was not made for excitement but so far I guess that's is what its getting based on.
Not everyone can appreciate every strategem of the sport. The majority of the people who buy these extreme PPV prices want to watch boxers beat the shit out of each other. The minority out there might appreciate the "slip under a jab and counter" but the majority wont even notice that move. The only thing people notice is "blood and guts" and that is what is reviving the sport. The technical excellence that the sport developed over the decades resulting in the perfect boxer such as PBF was killing the sport.

Right now the P4P king is Manny because he delivers what the crowd wants. I can actually talk to my friend's about boxing now because of the renewed interest.
AussieLad
I dont think excitement plays any part in determining the p4p 1, otherwise floyd would never have sat at the top for so long, with his snooze fests in the ring

But thats not to say that it doesnt benefit boxing as a whole having someone as exciting as pac on the throne. I could think of worse ambassadors for the sport.
thehype
QUOTE (caneman @ Oct 1 2009, 06:35 PM) *
I can see your reasoning but Pacman would have stopped that version of JMM , not just beat the shit outta him IMO & I do agree that PWilliams has a case & with a very good reason but unless something happens, his time will come along with Dawson if he is for real! Personally (for now) I still have Pacman but that could change after the Cotto fight let alone with what happens with PWilliams/Pavlik! JMM drops off a lot with his last 2 fights & mind you he did win one of those by KO but he was losing & about to lose 8 rounds to 4 on my card based on what I was seeing! Just my opinion & BTW I do give JMM some credit for stopping Diaz & casa but I think he is all but done even though he could make some noise @ 135 but Pacman would mess JMM up right now @ any weight! BTW if Pacman & PBF met @ 147, PBF would win 8-4 but @ 140 I got Pacman 115-113!


I think Manny and Juan will still be a close, competitive fight...even at 140.

I also think Floyd might look even better against Manny than he did against Marquez...could possibly even stop him! WOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Haha.

Man, I like Manny, but those struggles with Marquez and Morales really concern me. Those guys are nowhere near as slick or as smart in the ring as Floyd...nowhere! I mean, he completely shut Marquez down. I don't give a fuck what people say, Marquez should have been able to do SOMETHING...ANYTHING in there...even if he went balls to the wall...but he didn't...he was done...shut down...frustrated...and it wasn't because Floyd was running. Man, I just don't know if Manny's going to be able to deal with all of that. It's one thing to have to deal with a faded, dehydrated De La Hoya and a one-dimensional Ricky Hatton...it's another thing to have to deal with Floyd. Love him or hate him, the guy is smart with everything he does in the ring...from his skills to his gameplan...and even his dirty tactics...Floyd is one bad mofo in that ring man. I mean, CAN Manny beat him? I guess everyone has a chance...but man, I just can't see him doing it...not against that cat he just showed up in the ring on September 19th. If and only if Manny can somehow stretch Cotto, I might change my mind about that...MIGHT...but as of now, Floyd looked freakin sharp...never even fazed or bothered by the man who just gave Manny Pacquiao hell in March of 2008. I know...that was 18 months ago at a totally different weight...but can THAT much really change in just 18 months? Can a guy who fought at 130 just 18 months ago and get THAT much bigger to be able to deal with a really skilled 147-pounder? Can he get THAT much better? We'll see in November. I just thought, in my opinion, Floyd looked even better than he did when he left...which is a scary thought.
Snoop
QUOTE (provo @ Oct 1 2009, 02:45 AM) *
Asians are good with computers! So there probably on there the most then anyother race LOL...

You racist bastard. It's Chinese and Japanese that are good with computers. Not Filipinos. LOL
thehype
QUOTE (Fitz @ Oct 1 2009, 07:23 PM) *
You make points, but it seems like you are basing p4p on just skill a lone. I agree that Mayweather is better skill wise, but guess what? Pacquiao has challenged himself and taken risks while Mayweather hasn't.


No. Not true at all. I base it on other factors...heart, chin, determination, etc...but I think a lot of guys don't give Floyd the credit for any of that because they only look at his current body of work and make assumptions about him as a person because of that. In my opinion, I think he does have heart, I think he does have a good chin, I think he is determined and can dig deep and I think he has challenged himself throughout his entire career. I don't discredit his abilities inside of the ring because of his actions or decisions outside of the ring. Just because he didn't fight Margarito, it doesn't mean that I don't think he would have whipped that ass too.

Just out of curiosity, what "risk" do you think Floyd should have taken? What "challenge" did he not try to take?
Fadetwist
QUOTE (thehype @ Oct 2 2009, 12:45 AM) *
I think Manny and Juan will still be a close, competitive fight...even at 140.

I also think Floyd might look even better against Manny than he did against Marquez...could possibly even stop him! WOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Haha.

Man, I like Manny, but those struggles with Marquez and Morales really concern me. Those guys are nowhere near as slick or as smart in the ring as Floyd...nowhere! I mean, he completely shut Marquez down. I don't give a fuck what people say, Marquez should have been able to do SOMETHING...ANYTHING in there...even if he went balls to the wall...but he didn't...he was done...shut down...frustrated...and it wasn't because Floyd was running. Man, I just don't know if Manny's going to be able to deal with all of that. It's one thing to have to deal with a faded, dehydrated De La Hoya and a one-dimensional Ricky Hatton...it's another thing to have to deal with Floyd. Love him or hate him, the guy is smart with everything he does in the ring...from his skills to his gameplan...and even his dirty tactics...Floyd is one bad mofo in that ring man. I mean, CAN Manny beat him? I guess everyone has a chance...but man, I just can't see him doing it...not against that cat he just showed up in the ring on September 19th. If and only if Manny can somehow stretch Cotto, I might change my mind about that...MIGHT...but as of now, Floyd looked freakin sharp...never even fazed or bothered by the man who just gave Manny Pacquiao hell in March of 2008. I know...that was 18 months ago at a totally different weight...but can THAT much really change in just 18 months? Can a guy who fought at 130 just 18 months ago and get THAT much bigger to be able to deal with a really skilled 147-pounder? Can he get THAT much better? We'll see in November. I just thought, in my opinion, Floyd looked even better than he did when he left...which is a scary thought.


I agree that PBF is a great fighter, maybe even the pinnacle of what boxing has to offer. If he lets his hands go he could knock people out. But his technical training (which he was trained to do since he was five?) has severely handicapped him. I wish he would knock people out because i know he can..... but he wont. So in that end he cannot deliver what the sport really needs.... a savior.

Right now MMA is getting focused more on striking. ( If you don't believe me look at the most popular ones, the majority is strikers ) These MMA fighters are starting to find out how they are going to get stardom... by knocking people out.

I am here hoping that MMA will not eclipse boxing because boxing is a great sport, one of the best that ever existed. So right now Pacman is what the sport needs... and here is me hoping that PBF will get out of his own little world and finally realize that maybe its not all about the "Money", maybe its about that sport that gave him and his family so much in return.
Fitz
QUOTE (thehype @ Oct 2 2009, 03:11 PM) *
Just because he didn't fight Margarito, it doesn't mean that I don't think he would have whipped that ass too.


See, that's the whole problem. People are giving him wins based on assumption. I too always thought he would beat Margarito easily, but I don't care, he didn't and Mosley beat him in a way Mayweather could only dream of. Fighters get credit for what they do in the ring, not what we think they would do against opposition. Mayweather has all the tools to take #1 spot over Pacquiao, and comfortably as well. It's all up to him to take it, but he isn't doing what is expected from majority of the public at the moment

QUOTE (thehype @ Oct 2 2009, 03:11 PM) *
Just out of curiosity, what "risk" do you think Floyd should have taken? What "challenge" did he not try to take?


Well Mayweather has been at welter for a few years now. For a while the highly rated welters (from top to fringe contenders) have been Cotto, Margarito, Williams, Mosley, Clottey, Collazo, Berto and Cintron. All of these welters have found time to fight each other once at least (some even more) between them. Mayweather hasn't fought any. I really don't think people are asking for too much or something unreasonable. Do you?
thehype
QUOTE (AussieLad @ Oct 1 2009, 08:38 PM) *
Floyd simply needs to fight a live opponent. Simple as that. Without the accomplishments to back it up, the perception of talent is not enough


A live opponent like who? De La Hoya at 147? Could you imagine that fight? Hatton again? Andre Berto and Paul Williams would NEVER happen (all three are managed by Al Haymon). Margacheato? Clottey? Isaac Hlatshwayo? Carlos Quintana? Luis Collazo? Zab Judah? I mean really, what's YOUR definition of a live opponent? What makes them live? That they're bigger in size? That they're more skilled in talent? Could any of those guys done any better than Marquez? I guess maybe Zab, but can they make that a PPV event?

I don't know...it sounds to me like your definition of "live" might be Shane Mosley, Miguel Cotto or Manny Pacquiao.

I'm not even going to address the comment about accomplishments. I mean, really, you don't think he's accomplished anything? I think a win over De La Hoya at 154 is a better accomplishment than a win over him at 147...whether you're a 147-pound fighter (Mayweather) or a 140-pound fighter (Pacquiao). I think being the first to knockout a guy is a better accomplishment than being the second. I think moving up from 130 to 135 to face Jose Luis Castillo in your first fight at lightweight is a better accomplishment than moving up from 130 to 135 to face David Diaz. I'm just saying.
thehype
QUOTE (Fitz @ Oct 2 2009, 01:21 AM) *
See, that's the whole problem. People are giving him wins based on assumption. I too always thought he would beat Margarito easily, but I don't care, he didn't and Mosley beat him in a way Mayweather could only dream of. Fighters get credit for what they do in the ring, not what we think they would do against opposition. Mayweather has all the tools to take #1 spot over Pacquiao, and comfortably as well. It's all up to him to take it, but he isn't doing what is expected from majority of the public at the moment



Well Mayweather has been at welter for a few years now. For a while the highly rated welters (from top to fringe contenders) have been Cotto, Margarito, Williams, Mosley, Clottey, Collazo, Berto and Cintron. All of these welters have found time to fight each other once at least (some even more) between them. Mayweather hasn't fought any. I really don't think people are asking for too much or something unreasonable. Do you?


I'm not giving him "credit" for the win, I just think his "style" would have given Margarito problems if they hypothetically fought...just like I think his style would give Bernard Hopkins problems if they hypothetically fought...which is why I would rank Mayweather over Hopkins. Like I said, it's subjective, but I don't think you should solely base your list on accomplishments. I mean, Manny Pacquiao, Floyd Mayweather and Bernard Hopkins ALL fought and beat Oscar De La Hoya, but how can you give one guy more "credit" than the other for the win based on the outcome? I mean, maybe Hopkins RUINED De La Hoya, so maybe, just maybe, Hopkins should get way more credit for that victory than Pacquiao or Mayweather should get. It's subjective, which is why I take that all into consideration, but ultimately, for me, all I do is close my eyes and picture those two guys I'm comparing in the ring together...whoever I think will come out the victor, that's who I think deserves the top spot and in my opinion, I just don't know what Manny Pacquiao will be able to do to beat Floyd. He won't have any advantage whatsoever and the fact that I haven't seen a good blueprint for getting it done leaves me skeptical that Roach is going to all of a sudden come up with one. Given that ultimately I think Floyd would have the edge in every category, I think he should get the top spot.

You can eliminate Berto and Williams from your list because Al Haymon manages all three (Floyd, Berto and PWill). Al Haymon is not going to make his fighters fight each other.

You can scratch Mosley off the list too because he DID try to make that fight. That's documented.

Collazo? Come on. Are you seriously convincing yourself that a fight with Collazo would be competitive?

Cotto? He tried to make that fight too...at 140 (that's documented too)...Arum didn't want it. In fact, even at 147, Arum wasn't pushing Cotto at Floyd...he was pushing Margarito.

So I mean, who are we really talking about here...Margarito and Cintron? Seriously? That's what the hang up is for? Because Floyd didn't "challenge" himself against Antonio Margarito or Kermit Cintron, we think that Mayweather has flaws in his game, chinks in his armor, is beatable and ripe for the taking?

I don't think so.

Thus far, I haven't seen anyone accomplish anything that Floyd hasn't ALREADY done...hell, he had to retire for almost two years just to get someone (Pacquiao) even close to his accomplishments...and now that there is someone close, Floyd is back and I'm pretty sure the target always has and always will be Manny Pacquiao. Now, will he get credit if he goes in there and toys with Pacquiao? Absolutely not...because if that happens, it will be because Floyd was the bigger guy and it wasn't a fair fight and blah, blah, blah. People will continue to DEMAND that he face a "REAL" welterweight and they will annoint Shane Mosley as the next in line to topple the kind from his throne. Hahaha.
Fitz
QUOTE (thehype @ Oct 2 2009, 03:23 PM) *
Margacheato? Clottey? Isaac Hlatshwayo? Carlos Quintana? Luis Collazo? Zab Judah? I mean really, what's YOUR definition of a live opponent? What makes them live? That they're bigger in size? That they're more skilled in talent? Could any of those guys done any better than Marquez? I guess maybe Zab, but can they make that a PPV event?


Do you seriously believe that none of those guys would do better than Marquez? I don't know much about Hlatshwayo so I prefer not to comment on him, but you seriously can't tell me that Margarito, Clottey, Quintana would have done worse than Marquez. I don't know how anybody could actually believe that. Marquez didn't win a round, let alone a minute. About a year ago he was fighting at 130, I seriously don't understand how someone could think that Marquez gives a better fight that Clottey or Margarito.

QUOTE (thehype @ Oct 2 2009, 03:23 PM) *
I don't know...it sounds to me like your definition of "live" might be Shane Mosley, Miguel Cotto or Manny Pacquiao.


Most peoples definition I would believe is one of the highly considered welter weights. Either one of the two like Mosley or Cotto and a handful of the other of highly rated 147 fighters. Baldomir, Marquez, Hatton, Mitchell are not highly rated 147 fighters (though I can understand the logic with the Baldomir fight)

QUOTE (thehype @ Oct 2 2009, 03:40 PM) *
You can scratch Mosley off the list too because he DID try to make that fight. That's documented.


You mean when it was July and Mosley had come off his second fight of the year and said he was taking the year off, and then Mayweather challenged him (despite the public knowing the DLH fight was going to happen, it was just cock teasing happening at the time) and when Mosley said he would fight in January or February, it wasn't good enough and had to be that year.
Now Mosley stepping into the ring face to face with Floyd and challenging, and then making him stutter isn't just documented it was seen by millions around the world. That's documented.

QUOTE (thehype @ Oct 2 2009, 03:40 PM) *
Collazo? Come on. Are you seriously convincing yourself that a fight with Collazo would be competitive?


No, but surely it's better than a Marquez or Mitchell. By the way, Mayweather said: "Collazo beat Hatton, he got a gift"

http://www.boxingscene.com/?m=show&id=11447

Well Hatton seemed to be good enough to fight Mayweather, the guy he thought lost to Collazo. He has fought a lot worse than Collazo, so I don't know why it's unreasonable.

QUOTE (thehype @ Oct 2 2009, 03:40 PM) *
Cotto? He tried to make that fight too...at 140 (that's documented too)...Arum didn't want it. In fact, even at 147, Arum wasn't pushing Cotto at Floyd...he was pushing Margarito.


Yes, at 140. I understand that, but Cotto was green, up until that point his biggest fight was probably against Lovemore N'Dou, it's totally understandable that they didn't take that fight. Kind of weird that he hasn't tried to challenge him since.

QUOTE (thehype @ Oct 2 2009, 03:40 PM) *
So I mean, who are we really talking about here...Margarito and Cintron? Seriously? That's what the hang up is for? Because Floyd didn't "challenge" himself against Antonio Margarito or Kermit Cintron, we think that Mayweather has flaws in his game, chinks in his armor, is beatable and ripe for the taking?


Margarito and Cintron only? Did you forget that the other week Mosley was in his face making him stutter after challenging him on television in front of the "millions and millions watching around the world[/Buffer]? So no, it isn't just the two you mentioned and I am not talking about fighting Margarito or Cintron at this present time. I said that these were all top welters back and he is yet to fight any of them in all these years. Clottey, Cotto, Margarito, Cintron, Berto, Williams, Mosley or Collazo. But then again, you think Marquez is a better opponent than all of these guys, maybe we are asking for too much laugh.gif

Just a question. We know Mayweather can't make 140 anymore you have ruled Clottey, Collazo, Berto, Margarito (back then), Cintron (back then) and ruled out Cotto and Mosley. Considering he has cleaned out 147 in your eyes, do you feel he should move up to 154, retire or are there some other top 147 fighters he should take that has totally escaped everyones mind?
BigG
QUOTE
Now Mosley stepping into the ring face to face with Floyd and challenging, and then making him stutter isn't just documented it was seen by millions around the world. That's documented.


Why do you think Mosley made Floyd stutter? Floyd has always had a stuttering problem when things get heated.
AussieLad
Clearly there is no-one left for floyd to fight at welter. Why did he even bother coming out of retirement?

Yep, no-one left at junior welter, or welter.... time to get me some lightweights... someone call that katsidis fella. Or Juan Diaz

I would not be at all surprised to see mayweather vs malignaggi next
dominicbuilder9k1
QUOTE (AussieLad @ Oct 1 2009, 02:38 PM) *
There is no disputing floyds run below 140. Impressive wins against good opposition, with one debatable win over castillo that was emphatically redeemed in the rematch.

However, at 140 and above this oppositin tapered off significantly. He hasnt faced an elite fighter in these divisions, that has been natural to that weight. And so, we are rating his current status on the "perception of talent" rather than something that has been quantified and demonstrated in the ring in the last several years. Unless he has faced a top welter, how can he be ranked at welter?

Pacs the p4p no.1 but he isnt ranked the best at welter. But at least he is fighting a top 2 welter next. Floyd could do the same if he signed to fight mosely, but he is dodging that fight. So if a pbf wont fight the best in his current division, hasnt fought the best in a number of years, and there is no quantified demonstration of his abilities at 140+, how can he be ranked no.1?

Floyd simply needs to fight a live opponent. Simple as that. Without the accomplishments to back it up, the perception of talent is not enough

Woooaaahhh!!!... Good explanation by the "AussieLad"...
dominicbuilder9k1
QUOTE (snoopnick @ Oct 1 2009, 07:01 PM) *
You racist bastard. It's Chinese and Japanese that are good with computers. Not Filipinos. LOL

Woooaaah... "snoopnick" is rude,...hahaha...yeah, Chinese & Japanese are good with computers alright.... You remember the "I LOve You Virus" that shock the world of internet?...done by a Filipino teen student,...and there are hundreds of thousands of Filipino computer literates, only God knows what they are capable of...hehehe...
thehype
QUOTE (Fitz @ Oct 2 2009, 02:16 AM) *
Do you seriously believe that none of those guys would do better than Marquez? I don't know much about Hlatshwayo so I prefer not to comment on him, but you seriously can't tell me that Margarito, Clottey, Quintana would have done worse than Marquez. I don't know how anybody could actually believe that. Marquez didn't win a round, let alone a minute. About a year ago he was fighting at 130, I seriously don't understand how someone could think that Marquez gives a better fight that Clottey or Margarito.


Why not? Why should I believe that Margarito is going to do better than Marquez did? I mean, Margarito didn't win a round against Mosley for crying out loud...why should I believe that he'll win a round against Mayweather? Margarito landed 108 out of 485 punches on Shane before he got stopped (and Shane isn't as elusive with his defense as Mayweather)...why should I believe he'll do better than that against Mayweather? I mean, I don't know why you don't think it's possible for Marquez to perform better than Margarito, Clottey or Quintana when, technically speaking, he's a more skilled boxer than any of those guys (maybe not Clottey, but definitely Margarito and Quintana). It sounds like your basing everything on size (i.e. Margarito is bigger than Marquez, therefore he'll perform better) and in my opinion, that's a mistake. I mean, yeah, Marquez was fighting at 130 about a year ago...but guess what...Manny Paquiao was fighting at 130 a little over a year ago too, so why should I believe that Manny Pacquiao will perform better than Marquez just did, especially considering that he doesn't have the same size as say Margarito, Clottey or Quintana? Personally, I don't think Manny will perform all that much better, therefore I think he loses to Mayweather, therefore I think Mayweather is #1 P4P.

QUOTE (Fitz @ Oct 2 2009, 02:16 AM) *
Most peoples definition I would believe is one of the highly considered welter weights. Either one of the two like Mosley or Cotto and a handful of the other of highly rated 147 fighters. Baldomir, Marquez, Hatton, Mitchell are not highly rated 147 fighters (though I can understand the logic with the Baldomir fight)


Okay, so you're basically saying Mayweather should have come back after two years off and fought Mosley or Cotto? Is that what it boils down to for you...because he didn't come back and fight Mosley or Cotto after two years off, you think he's beatable? LOL. Okay...if you say so. I mean, don't get me wrong, I would have loved to see him fight either guy two, but let's be realistic about it...a Cotto (or Pacquiao) fight wouldn't have happened because Arum was already targeting Cotto vs. Pacquiao well before Mayweather announced his return and Pacquiao waxed Hatton. So really, that only left Mosley to satisfy your expectations, but man, I can't fault the guy for wanting to take a tune-up after nearly two years off and given that Arum was already maneuvering Pacquiao to demand the lion's share of the purse should he fight Mayweather, I also can't blame Mayweather for positioning himself as well by choosing to fight and toy with a guy who Manny struggled with just a year prior. That's just the business side of the sport. In my opinion, however, that business decision has no impact on his abilities inside the ring. I mean, you can hate him for making that decision if you want, but it still doesn't mean that he still doesn't have fast hands, excellent footwork, solid defense and just incredible talent.

QUOTE (Fitz @ Oct 2 2009, 02:16 AM) *
You mean when it was July and Mosley had come off his second fight of the year and said he was taking the year off, and then Mayweather challenged him (despite the public knowing the DLH fight was going to happen, it was just cock teasing happening at the time) and when Mosley said he would fight in January or February, it wasn't good enough and had to be that year.
Now Mosley stepping into the ring face to face with Floyd and challenging, and then making him stutter isn't just documented it was seen by millions around the world. That's documented.


Well, if you want to get technical about it, we can go back to 1999, when Floyd was at 130 and Shane was at 135. Floyd wanted the fight then, but Mosley chose to make the business decision and move up to 147 to challenge De La Hoya. Of course, Mosley doesn't get the blame for not making the fight then because, hey, he was chasing De La Hoya so that's okay. And then yeah, back in July of 2006, Mayweather challenged Mosley again, but millions around the world saw Shane say he had a toothache and wanted to go on vacation. Contrary to your belief, Mayweather's fight with De La Hoya (in May of 2007) wasn't close to happening...otherwise Merchant wouldn't have even bothered to question Shane about the possible matchup. If Shane was as eager to prove to the world back then that's he's the best, like he is now, then he could have fought Floyd in September...but no, Shane wanted to go on vacation. Okay...fine. Whatever.

QUOTE (Fitz @ Oct 2 2009, 02:16 AM) *
No, but surely it's better than a Marquez or Mitchell. By the way, Mayweather said: "Collazo beat Hatton, he got a gift"

http://www.boxingscene.com/?m=show&id=11447

Well Hatton seemed to be good enough to fight Mayweather, the guy he thought lost to Collazo. He has fought a lot worse than Collazo, so I don't know why it's unreasonable.


It's unreasonable because NOBODY would have bought a Mayweather vs. Collazo pay-per-view event. EVERYONE demanded that he fight Hatton so that's what he did...now you're telling me that was the wrong decision? That he should have fought Collazo or Clottey instead? Come on Fitz...you're smarter than that. If you're Floyd Mayweather and you're coming out of retirement and want to get paid, you HAVE to do a pay-per-view fight and if that's the case, your options are limited.

QUOTE (Fitz @ Oct 2 2009, 02:16 AM) *
Yes, at 140. I understand that, but Cotto was green, up until that point his biggest fight was probably against Lovemore N'Dou, it's totally understandable that they didn't take that fight. Kind of weird that he hasn't tried to challenge him since.


Cotto was green? Okay...so Cotto gets a pass at 140 because he was still green. LOL. So now, Mayweather gets the blame because that fight hasn't happened yet? Cotto didn't even move up to welterweight until December of 2006...a full year after Floyd had moved up. In fact, Floyd had already fought and beaten Sharmba Mitchell, Zab Judah and Carlos Baldomir by the time Cotto got to welterweight...and by that time, Floyd already had De La Hoya and Hatton in his sights...so you're saying Floyd should be blamed or his P4P status should take a hit because a Cotto fight didn't happen before he retired? Come on man...that doesn't even make sense.

QUOTE (Fitz @ Oct 2 2009, 02:16 AM) *
Margarito and Cintron only? Did you forget that the other week Mosley was in his face making him stutter after challenging him on television in front of the "millions and millions watching around the world[/Buffer]? So no, it isn't just the two you mentioned and I am not talking about fighting Margarito or Cintron at this present time. I said that these were all top welters back and he is yet to fight any of them in all these years. Clottey, Cotto, Margarito, Cintron, Berto, Williams, Mosley or Collazo. But then again, you think Marquez is a better opponent than all of these guys, maybe we are asking for too much laugh.gif


I didn't say Marquez was a "better opponent"...but given that Mayweather, like De La Hoya, only fights on pay-per-view now, he was certainly a more viable pay-per-view opponent than Cintron, Clottey or Collazo. A Margarito fight wasn't going to happen because Floyd was making the business decision to chase after De La Hoya (which is okay for Mosley back in 1999, but somehow, not okay for Floyd in 2007). Berto and Williams are Al Haymon fighters (I don't know how many times I have to say that) so those fights will likely never happen. Not to mention, the guy was retired for all of 2008 and half of 2009 and THAT'S when all of those guys fought each other. Cotto-Margarito, Margarito-Mosley, Margarito-Cintron...all of those fights took place in 2008/early 2009 and something tells me, had Floyd NOT retired, then some of those fights likely would not have happened as Floyd would have had to fought some of those guys in order to keep fighting on pay-per-view. I didn't forget Mosley being in his face and I'm sure Floyd didn't forget either...but Floyd never said he WOULDN'T fight Shane either. I mean, like I said, it seems like, for you, what it boils down to is the fact that he didn't fight Margarito, Cintron or Clottey some time between 2005 (when he first moved to welterweight) until now. Okay...that's fair enough...but all I'm saying is that I've seen enough out of Margarito, Cintron and Clottey between 2005 and now to be of the belief that Mayweather's style would cause any of those guys problems...therefore, I'm not downgrading his abilities inside the ring simply because he didn't make the decision outside of the ring to fight those guys in that timespan.

QUOTE (Fitz @ Oct 2 2009, 02:16 AM) *
Just a question. We know Mayweather can't make 140 anymore you have ruled Clottey, Collazo, Berto, Margarito (back then), Cintron (back then) and ruled out Cotto and Mosley. Considering he has cleaned out 147 in your eyes, do you feel he should move up to 154, retire or are there some other top 147 fighters he should take that has totally escaped everyones mind?


Again, I never said he cleaned out 147 (don't be fecetious)...I'm just saying that I don't penalize his P4P status simply because certain fights didn't happen. I mean, I would have LOVED to see Manny Pacquiao fight Nate Campbell, Juan Diaz or Joel Casamayor at lightweight instead of David Diaz, but I'm not going to penalize his P4P status for it. Personally, I don't want to see Floyd fight Clottey or Collazo (and I'd be surprised to hear that you DO want to see those fights...particularly knowing that they would be on PPV). Quite honestly, I don't even want to see him fight Margarito...not until we've seen just how good Margarito is post-handwrap controversy. I would LOVE to see him fight Berto or Paul Williams, but I also realize the chances of those fights happening are slim because they share the same manager. That being said, the only real fights I want to see him in are Mosley, Cotto or Pacquiao...which is pretty much the consensus from everyone...but just because those fights haven't happened yet, it doesn't mean that I think his P4P status should be hindered.
pcraw
As fans we just want to see these guys fight, fight fight. But as a fighter to some degree you have to make smart business decisions. Its no different from any of our lines of work. I love Fighthype just like Hype does, but Hype understands just like I understand if Fox Sports offers me a gig or Sports Ill. offers me a gig I would seriously have to consider it. My point is...anyone thinking Floyd would fight Collazo over Hatton is just being naive. Here is a list of excuses and complaints if Floyd fights and beats any of these fighters
Clottey-He never finishes big fights
Margarito- He's never going to be the same since he's been caught
Mosley- Floyd waited until he got old
Pacquiao- Just like Marquez he was too small for Mayweather
Collazo- Has never won a big fight
Cotto- Damaged goods that was too slow for Mayweather

The list goes on and on. Anyone Lil Floyd beats the fans and media will have a ready made excuse, not matter how easily he defeats them.
Lil-lightsout
QUOTE (thehype @ Oct 2 2009, 12:12 PM) *
Why not? Why should I believe that Margarito is going to do better than Marquez did? I mean, Margarito didn't win a round against Mosley for crying out loud...why should I believe that he'll win a round against Mayweather? Margarito landed 108 out of 485 punches on Shane before he got stopped (and Shane isn't as elusive with his defense as Mayweather)...why should I believe he'll do better than that against Mayweather? I mean, I don't know why you don't think it's possible for Marquez to perform better than Margarito, Clottey or Quintana when, technically speaking, he's a more skilled boxer than any of those guys (maybe not Clottey, but definitely Margarito and Quintana). It sounds like your basing everything on size (i.e. Margarito is bigger than Marquez, therefore he'll perform better) and in my opinion, that's a mistake. I mean, yeah, Marquez was fighting at 130 about a year ago...but guess what...Manny Paquiao was fighting at 130 a little over a year ago too, so why should I believe that Manny Pacquiao will perform better than Marquez just did, especially considering that he doesn't have the same size as say Margarito, Clottey or Quintana? Personally, I don't think Manny will perform all that much better, therefore I think he loses to Mayweather, therefore I think Mayweather is #1 P4P.


If you really think Marquez had a shot to perform better than Clottey, Margarito, and Quintana, you are absolutely crazy. You keep mentioning the size factor like it means nothing. Have you ever fought before(seriously)? I can tell you from first hand experience what a huge difference weight means. I mean I should not even have to explain myself. Especially when the bigger guy ALREADY has every other advantage in the book. Margarito kicked Cotto's ass, so what if he got his ass kicked by Mosley? Shane had some serious power he was unleashing on Margarito to keep him honest, not to mention his tactics and speed too. Floyd has no power to threating Tony at all, Margarito could have opened up way more on Floyd than he did Shane. Sure agree PBF would have outboxed him, but Tny is a volume puncher who would have stayed on Floyds chest most of the fight. His size would have made a big difference. And Clottey fucked up Judah and fought Margarito even up, and argueably beat Cotto. And you REALLY think JMM had a better shot than him.HAHAHA. They all had a better shot and would have made for a much more competative fight than JMM(Quintana is not that strong but he is a lefty and is decent). Come on, you can not be serious? Bottom line, any way you slice it, you have to PROVE yourself in the ring. Floyd just beat a lightweight. He did not beat a welterweight, or any of the top welterweights. Could you imagine if this was Roy Jones(before Tarver 1) and he came back and just beat a middleweight. He would freaking get crucified and get ZERO credit for the win. But Floyd does it, and he does not even have to taste the punch of a top welterweight and he still by many give him the top spot. I want to see him get hit by a bigger stronger puncher and see what happens. He might be able to keep a lightweight at bay the whole fight, but he AIN'T keeping all the top welterweights at bay like that for the whole fight. He ain't that good. How can the top P4P self proclaimed guy not even fight a guy in his own division? What is that saying? Especially if you look at his weak ass oppponents at 140-147 already. It is nice to atleast read many sane comments on here that are not fooled by this fight one bit.



I will have no problem giving Floyd his due if he beats one of the top welterweights. And I am hoping he does start showing his stuff to see if he is as great as some think he is. But I refuse to be impressed by his last sparring match. I do think Floyd would handle Pac too, unless Pac got a nice power shot in and hurt Floyd. But Pac has been winning very impressively lately in the RING against bigger guys, and thats why at the moment he is #1P4P to me. Cotto could and probably will change that though. I want to see him and Mosley right now, but I would settle for a fight with Berto, Clottey, Collazo, or Cotto.




AussieLad
QUOTE (pcraw @ Oct 2 2009, 08:18 PM) *
As fans we just want to see these guys fight, fight fight. But as a fighter to some degree you have to make smart business decisions. Its no different from any of our lines of work. I love Fighthype just like Hype does, but Hype understands just like I understand if Fox Sports offers me a gig or Sports Ill. offers me a gig I would seriously have to consider it. My point is...anyone thinking Floyd would fight Collazo over Hatton is just being naive. Here is a list of excuses and complaints if Floyd fights and beats any of these fighters
Clottey-He never finishes big fights
Margarito- He's never going to be the same since he's been caught
Mosley- Floyd waited until he got old
Pacquiao- Just like Marquez he was too small for Mayweather
Collazo- Has never won a big fight
Cotto- Damaged goods that was too slow for Mayweather

The list goes on and on. Anyone Lil Floyd beats the fans and media will have a ready made excuse, not matter how easily he defeats them.



This is a typical excuse

Its not about the flaws of the opponent, it is about the who is the best out there at that time

When floyd was fighting baldomir and judah... there was margarito dying for the fight. He offered floyd 8 million, floyd ducked him using the linear title as an excuse to fight a journeyman. And he fought judah, fresh off a loss instead of margarito. Two ducks back to back

Now he couldve signed cotto, mosely, clottey... instead he fought a blown up lightweight

Sure, each of those guys had flaws, but they were the best opposition available at the time. And he didnt fight anyone of them.

That is the difference
pcraw
QUOTE (AussieLad @ Oct 2 2009, 07:47 PM) *
This is a typical excuse

Its not about the flaws of the opponent, it is about the who is the best out there at that time

When floyd was fighting baldomir and judah... there was margarito dying for the fight. He offered floyd 8 million, floyd ducked him using the linear title as an excuse to fight a journeyman. And he fought judah, fresh off a loss instead of margarito. Two ducks back to back

Now he couldve signed cotto, mosely, clottey... instead he fought a blown up lightweight

Sure, each of those guys had flaws, but they were the best opposition available at the time. And he didnt fight anyone of them.

That is the difference


That's not the difference the difference is others guys get away with doing the same thing, but they don't get scrutinized no where near as much as Mayweather. Shane had a toothache...come on, Cotto was green when Floyd wanted to fight him...come on hell even the first time he offered to fight Hatton, Hatton's people turned it down and said he wasn't ready. There is so much behind the scenes shit that goes on that you guys will never know about is the cause to many fights not happening. Why do you think we're getting Jones/Hopkins 2, 17 years late? Not because they were scared of each other or ducking one another, behind the scenes negotiating. Name the last notable win DLH had before fighting Pacquiao? Name me the last notable win Hatton had before fighting Pacquiao and they were both coming off of loses too Mayweather. So unless you're that impressed with Juan Lazcano or Steve Forbes then Pacquiao wasn't fighting the best opposition either. Double Standard. No one criticized BHop for fighting DLH who he towered!
thehype
QUOTE (Lil-lightsout @ Oct 2 2009, 08:04 PM) *
If you really think Marquez had a shot to perform better than Clottey, Margarito, and Quintana, you are absolutely crazy. You keep mentioning the size factor like it means nothing.


Come on man...I never said size didn't matter. I mean, it definitely matters SOMETIMES (Hopkins vs. De La Hoya), but it doesn't matter ALL THE TIME (Trinidad vs. Joppy). Personally, I don't think that just because a guy is bigger, it automatically means that he'll perform better or be more competitive. I think you seem to forget that skills matter as well and because of that, I'm not so sure that Margarito, who is less skilled than Marquez, would automatically perform better just because he's bigger. Case in point...Carlos Baldomir, another less skilled guy, was bigger than Mayweather, but performed worse than Zab Judah did against Mayweather. I never said Marquez had a "better shot" against Mayweather...I'm just saying that I don't necessarily think Margarito will do that much better against Mayweather.

Styles make fights...not size...and to this day, I don't think Mayweather has ever lost 5 rounds in a fight. Marquez didn't get beat because Floyd was bigger...Floyd wasn't leaning on him and using his size to his advantage...Marquez never hit Mayweather a punch that I thought could have hurt him if Floyd was smaller...nah...Marquez got beat because Floyd shut his ass down. Everything he wanted to do, Floyd shut it down. Yeah, I guess it's possible for Margarito to win one or two rounds against Mayweather, but I doubt it since he couldn't even win a round against Mosley (ironically, Mayorga won like 5 or 6 rounds against Mosley...a much better performance than Margarito had). Still though, even if he were to win one or two rounds, did he really do that much better than Marquez? I mean, technically, I guess you can say yeah, but the point is, just based on what I've seen from Margarito and his style and the fact that he couldn't win one round against Mosley prior to being stopped, I just don't think he'll do much better than Marquez did against Mayweather...which is basically a unanimous decision loss.

But honestly bro, you pretty much shot yourself in the foot when you said "I do think Floyd would handle Pac too, unless Pac got a nice power shot in and hurt Floyd. But Pac has been winning very impressively lately in the RING against bigger guys, and thats why at the moment he is #1P4P to me." I mean, I don't know...you pretty much just said that you have Pacquiao #1 P4P because he's won impressively, but you think he'd lose to Floyd. Okay, so if you think he'd lose to Floyd, then why the hell don't you have him ranked #1 in your P4P list? It's not a matter of how "impressive" you look in your victories...it's about who's the best fighter period! If you're saying Mayweather is better, skill-wise, and you think he'd beat Pacquiao, then you should have him #1.

But hey...it's your list...not mine.

Oh...and for the record...I have fought before...both boxing and martial arts. I'm fully aware that size can make a difference in a fight...but skill can make a difference too.
thehype
QUOTE (AussieLad @ Oct 2 2009, 08:47 PM) *
This is a typical excuse

Its not about the flaws of the opponent, it is about the who is the best out there at that time

When floyd was fighting baldomir and judah... there was margarito dying for the fight. He offered floyd 8 million, floyd ducked him using the linear title as an excuse to fight a journeyman. And he fought judah, fresh off a loss instead of margarito. Two ducks back to back

Now he couldve signed cotto, mosely, clottey... instead he fought a blown up lightweight

Sure, each of those guys had flaws, but they were the best opposition available at the time. And he didnt fight anyone of them.

That is the difference


Why would he fight Margarito, when he was chasing De La Hoya? The same thing Mosley did in 1999, Floyd did in 2007. Mosley gets a pass, I guess, because he fought Wilfredo Rivera, Willy Wise and then he fought Oscar De La Hoya. Or hell...look at Bernard Hopkins...after he beat Trinidad, he fought Carl Daniels, William Joppy (who Trinidad had already SMASHED), Morrade Hakkar and then Robert Allen before he fought De La Hoya. What's the difference? Hopkins didn't sit at the top of the P4P list because of how impressive his performances were...he was there because of his skill and longevity and the fact that nobody thought anyone from any weight class could beat him.

Or hell, since we're talking about who the best is out there at the time, personally, I would have liked to have seen Manny Pacquiao fight Juan Diaz, Joel Casamayor or Nate Campbell at lightweight instead of fighting David Diaz (who certainly wasn't the best out there at the time).

laugh.gif

This is just crazy. I'm so done with this thread. You guys aren't even debating the P4P list anymore...this has just turned into a Mayweather bashing thread. LOL.
Fitz
QUOTE (thehype @ Oct 3 2009, 12:44 PM) *
Hopkins didn't sit at the top of the P4P list because of how impressive his performances were...he was there because of his skill and longevity and the fact that nobody thought anyone from any weight class could beat him. This is just crazy. I'm done with this thread. You guys aren't even debating the P4P list anymore...this has just turned into a bash Mayweather thread. LOL.


The difference is, Hopkins reigned middleweight at #1, he was undisputed. He fought all contenders and mandatories, there was nobody at 160 you could say Hopkins is avoiding, it wasn't his fault the list was up to par with other fighters in divisions. Mayweather on the other hand has been fighting at 147 for a few years, and became undisputed, you can pick a handful of top rated guys at 147 that Mayweather could fight but hasn't. You cannot say the same for Hopkins.
thehype
QUOTE (Fitz @ Oct 2 2009, 10:54 PM) *
The difference is, Hopkins reigned middleweight at #1, he was undisputed. He fought all contenders and mandatories, there was nobody at 160 you could say Hopkins is avoiding, it wasn't his fault the list was up to par with other fighters in divisions. Mayweather on the other hand has been fighting at 147 for a few years, and became undisputed, you can pick a handful of top rated guys at 147 that Mayweather could fight but hasn't. You cannot say the same for Hopkins.


Wait a minute...didn't you just say a few posts back that Mayweather hasn't challenged himself?

"Pacquiao has challenged himself and taken risks while Mayweather hasn't." - Fitz

So it's okay for Hopkins to sit in a whack ass division, beat all contenders and mandatories (like Morrade Hakkar...lol), beat up two smaller men in De La Hoya and Trinidad, and reign supreme at the top of the P4P list...but Mayweather...oh...that Mayweather has to "challenge" himself and how dare he fight someone not in his division.

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That's a pretty whack double standard there bro.

If you ask me, there's no difference whatsoever. Hopkins was basically given the P4P throne based on longevity (he hadn't lost in YEARS) and skill. He wasn't elevated to the top of the P4P list based on his performances (because I know his fights aren't impressive) or his "challenges" (outside of De La Hoya and Trinidad, most people couldn't even name a meaningful guy that he beat).

It's a double standard...a pretty whack one at that.
thehype
QUOTE (Fitz @ Oct 2 2009, 11:21 PM) *
You still don't understand it. Hopkins was an undisputed middleweight champion, he did what he was supposed to do as a champion. Challengers came to him and he knocked them off, there was nobody he couldn't of faced at 160 but he chose not to. That's not the case with Mayweather. Klitschko's are in a similar position, they are fighting who they put in front of them, and you can't say they are ducking anybody. Much like Hopkins. Mayweather has choices and isn't taking them. They are nothing alike.
Like I said, Hopkins fought everyone, there wasn't a fighter at his reign that he didn't fight. There are several with Mayweather. You are forgetting anyways, it's not as if everyone chose to put Pacquiao over Mayweather, just about everybody had Mayweather at #1 before he retired, not everyone would have replaced him if he stayed undefeated but people like myself took him and Pacquiao took over. Mayweather has done nothing to take his spot back. So who's to say Mayweather still wouldn't be there for longevity if he decided to fight a couple more guys rather than retire for 2 years?


I get it just fine. What you're saying is despite everything Floyd Mayweather has done in his career...undefeated, 40 wins, 0 losses, 25 knockouts, world champion by the time he had his 18th pro fight, a champion for 10 years in five different weight classes...you're saying because he didn't fight x, y and z fighter at welterweight, you think he's slipped, he's vulnerable and therefore, he's ripe for the taking and it's only a matter of time before x, y or z fighter gets to him and takes away that loss...basically because of that, you don't think he's the best fighter out there. That's pretty much it in a nutshell, right?

Okay...that's cool...it's your P4P list...but I think it's wrong to penalize a fighter's skill simply because he has yet to fight x, y or z fighter. I mean, like I already said, in my opinion, Pacquiao should have fought Juan Diaz, Nate Campbell or Joel Casamayor at lightweight instead of David Diaz, but he didn't. Instead, he "challenged" himself and moved up to fight De La Hoya. Wow. Impressive. That's cool, but you know what? Mayweather did the same thing so why do you penalize Floyd's abilities inside the ring but not Manny Pacquiao's skills?

Getting back to Hopkins for a minute, it's ironic that you say the following:

"Hopkins was an undisputed middleweight champion, he did what he was supposed to do as a champion. Challengers came to him and he knocked them off, there was nobody he couldn't of faced at 160 but he chose not to. That's not the case with Mayweather .... Mayweather has choices and isn't taking them. They are nothing alike."

Hopkins didn't have any choice but to fight all those guys because, unlike Mayweather, he didn't have any choices. There were no big fights in or around 160. What else was he going to do? Hopkins didn't get any choices until AFTER he beat De La Hoya...and ironically, since beating De La Hoya, he's pretty much been picking and choosing his opponents as he sees fit (just a side note, in his entire career, I don't think De La Hoya ever unified a division). Since becoming the "light heavyweight king," exactly how many light heavyweights has he fought? The only "real" light heavyweight that he's fought was Antonio Tarver...everybody was small...Winky Wright, Joe Calzaghe, Kelly Pavlik...I mean, the guy is 4-3 since beating De La Hoya and yet, most people still have him ranked somewhere in their top 5 P4P. They're not keeping him there because he's doing what a champion is supposed to do...they're keeping him there because of his skills. That's what you're not getting. You seem to think that fighting (or not fighting) certain fighters should have an impact on where a guy is ranked P4P. That's not the case. Don't get me wrong...you definitely need to look at a guy's resume and his performances in order to get an idea of his skill and his capabilities in the ring, but in my opinion, I've seen enough of Floyd's fights to know that anyone who steps inside the ring with him will have an EXTREMELY difficult time outworking him or landing anything flush. Just because he didn't fight fighters x, y or z, that doesn't mean he still isn't going to be EXTREMELY difficult for anyone.

Just out of curiosity, since Hopkins didn't fight in 2009, should his P4P status be lowered?
AussieLad
QUOTE (thehype @ Oct 3 2009, 02:44 AM) *
Why would he fight Margarito, when he was chasing De La Hoya? The same thing Mosley did in 1999, Floyd did in 2007. Mosley gets a pass, I guess, because he fought Wilfredo Rivera, Willy Wise and then he fought Oscar De La Hoya. Or hell...look at Bernard Hopkins...after he beat Trinidad, he fought Carl Daniels, William Joppy (who Trinidad had already SMASHED), Morrade Hakkar and then Robert Allen before he fought De La Hoya. What's the difference? Hopkins didn't sit at the top of the P4P list because of how impressive his performances were...he was there because of his skill and longevity and the fact that nobody thought anyone from any weight class could beat him.

Or hell, since we're talking about who the best is out there at the time, personally, I would have liked to have seen Manny Pacquiao fight Juan Diaz, Joel Casamayor or Nate Campbell at lightweight instead of fighting David Diaz (who certainly wasn't the best out there at the time).

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This is just crazy. I'm so done with this thread. You guys aren't even debating the P4P list anymore...this has just turned into a Mayweather bashing thread. LOL.



So what your saying is that he was compelled to fight judah instead of margarito because he was chasing de la hoya? What sort of crazy ass logic is that? I dont begrudge mayweather chasing oscar and the $$$, thats fair enough, and even to a certain extent the baldomir fight for the linear title... but the judah fight, now that was unforgivable
thehype
QUOTE (AussieLad @ Oct 3 2009, 12:02 AM) *
So what your saying is that he was compelled to fight judah instead of margarito because he was chasing de la hoya? What sort of crazy ass logic is that? I dont begrudge mayweather chasing oscar and the $$$, thats fair enough, and even to a certain extent the baldomir fight for the linear title... but the judah fight, now that was unforgivable


You're memory must not go back too far. Let's try to remember that Bob Arum was still Floyd's promoter when he fought Zab Judah. Arum didn't offer Floyd a fight with Margarito until AFTER the Judah fight and by then, the De La Hoya fight was already on the table. I never said he was "compelled" to fight Judah...he fought Judah because that was the viable PPV fight that Arum could make. Margarito was not a worthy PPV opponent in April of 2006 when Floyd fought Judah. At that time, Margarito's resume looked as such:

2006-02-18 Manuel Gomez WIN TKO 1
2005-04-23 Kermit Cintron WIN TKO5
2005-02-18 Sebastian Andres Lujan WIN TKO10
2004-09-11 Daniel Santos LOSS TD10

Not to sound like Floyd, but prior to April 2006, who the fuck was Antonio Margarito?

The Judah fight was business...it was a fight that was basically signed before Zab even fought Baldomir. Floyd took care of business against Zab and then he took care of business against the guy that beat Zab...and yet, you still discredit him because he didn't fight Margarito? What sort of crazy ass logic is that?

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AussieLad
QUOTE (thehype @ Oct 3 2009, 05:20 AM) *
The Judah fight was business...it was a fight that was basically signed before Zab even fought Baldomir.



So the fight was "basically" signed before zab fought baldomir? So pen didnt touch parchment? And he still had to go ahead with it after judah lost. Hmmmm. So the loss to santos in 2004 discredits margarito, with years and succesfull fights in between... but the immediate preceding fight where judah lost still makes him a viable opponent?
The CEO
lol...I thought y'all knew....when Hype's in the mood, he is a MOTHERFUCKER to debate.....sure am glad we usually have similar opinions of fighters and issues....lol...including this one...

Although, it must be said that I personally have Pacquiao as my #1....even though Mayweather is clearly more skilled and would Own him at will if they were transformed into the exact same weight with the same proportions.

The only reason I don't have him at #1 now is due to his sabbatical....that's important to me...activity....that's why Vasquez keeps falling off...Hopkins keeps falling...and et cetera....

Anyway....after Mayweather wins another fight against a solid name around his size, he SHOULD be #1 on EVERYONE'S list...
thehype
QUOTE (AussieLad @ Oct 3 2009, 12:50 AM) *
So the fight was "basically" signed before zab fought baldomir? So pen didnt touch parchment? And he still had to go ahead with it after judah lost. Hmmmm. So the loss to santos in 2004 discredits margarito, with years and succesfull fights in between... but the immediate preceding fight where judah lost still makes him a viable opponent?


Actually...yeah...if I remember correctly, while Zab was in Florida training at Punch Fitness for his fight with Baldomir, Don King flew down there with the contract and had Zab sign it. I'm pretty sure there's some pictures of him signing the contract floating around somewhere on the internet. I'm not sure if Floyd signed his contract or not, but that fight was a done deal provided Judah get past Baldomir...probably similar to what's going on with Jones-Hopkins II right now. I think I remember Zab showing up to press conferences for the Baldomir fight with shirts that read "Pretty Girl Is Next" or something like that. They were already hyping the Mayweather fight during the promotion of the Baldomir fight. LOL.

Of course, Zab's dumb ass lost, so Arum had to make the decision on what to do...scrap the fight or go through with it. He made the decision to go through with it because Zab, even with the loss, was still the best available pay-per-view opponent out there for him. I didn't say the loss to Santos in 2004 discredits Margarito...that's not the point...the point is, Antonio Margarito, at the time, was not a good pay-per-view generating opponent. He hadn't fought anyone with a big name other than Kermit Cintron. Zab Judah was the former undisputed welterweight champion who had been in big fights with big names before...Arum figured he could get the most bang for his buck in his last fight with Mayweather if he made the Judah fight. It was a business decision. I mean, I guess you can blame Mayweather for not fighting Margarito then...I guess...but shit, his own promoter, Bob Arum, the same promoter that promotes Margarito didn't want to make the fight either...just like Arum wasn't going to make a Mayweather-Cotto fight while he still promoted the two. It just wasn't going to happen then. Just like Mayweather won't be fighting Paul Williams. They're both managed by Al Haymon...do you really think Haymon wants them to fight each other right now? I mean, yeah, if it's their last option, but only then...otherwise, you maximize your profit and make other fights that will bring you top dollar.

You should go back and find some old interviews of Arum from the days prior to Floyd leaving him. Man, he LOVED Floyd...the greatest fighter ever...better than Ali...better than Leonard. If you asked him a Mayweather vs. Cotto fight, he'd talk around it...avoid it...say it was possible, but....blah, blah, blah. As soon as Floyd left Arum though (after the Judah fight), THAT'S when Margarito and Cotto were all of a sudden ready to fight...but by then, Floyd was on the De La Hoya path (Baldomir -> De La Hoya).

But to answer your question...yeah...in the 1st quarter of 2006, it was possible to get more pay-per-view buys and make more money fighting Zab Judah coming off of a loss than fighting Antonio Margarito. In my opinion, Margarito didn't become a pay-per-view draw until he beat Cotto in 2008 (ironically, a year Floyd was retired)...of course, right after that, he got caught with the plaster handwraps...that probably kills his pay-per-view draw, which pretty much means he won't be fighting Floyd until he beats another big name like Cotto.

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Lil-lightsout
QUOTE (thehype @ Oct 2 2009, 10:34 PM) *
But honestly bro, you pretty much shot yourself in the foot when you said "I do think Floyd would handle Pac too, unless Pac got a nice power shot in and hurt Floyd. But Pac has been winning very impressively lately in the RING against bigger guys, and thats why at the moment he is #1P4P to me." I mean, I don't know...you pretty much just said that you have Pacquiao #1 P4P because he's won impressively, but you think he'd lose to Floyd. Okay, so if you think he'd lose to Floyd, then why the hell don't you have him ranked #1 in your P4P list? It's not a matter of how "impressive" you look in your victories...it's about who's the best fighter period! If you're saying Mayweather is better, skill-wise, and you think he'd beat Pacquiao, then you should have him #1.

But hey...it's your list...not mine.

Oh...and for the record...I have fought before...both boxing and martial arts. I'm fully aware that size can make a difference in a fight...but skill can make a difference too.


That's where I rate(not that it matters) differently than you. Of course I think Floyd is better than Manny and will beat him. But I just think Floyd should have to be more active in the ring and especially fight some or atleast one top guy in his own division. I also think Shane is more skilled and would stop Manny early too but I don't rank him above Manny, and I am clearly a huge Mosley fan, but I look at Mosleys inactivity since Margarito, and right before that he looked subpar against Mayorga. IMO I think if Floyd came right back with a top welterweight and dismantled him easily, then it would make it way easier for some of us to hold him in higher regards. Hopefully will get this Floyd mess sorted out soon enough(by fighting the best opponents) and see where he really stands.

I mean Pac just demolished Hatton who was coming off a very impressive win over Malignaggi. Paulie was a top 140 pounder and Hatton beat him down, and then Pac destroys Hatton. You got to give credit for Pac for fighting one of the top guys at 140 and winning that impressively. He actually did it in the ring.

That's cool you fought before. Just was wondering, cause with me I know how much the weight factor in sparring affected me.
thehype
QUOTE (The CEO @ Oct 3 2009, 01:18 AM) *
lol...I thought y'all knew....when Hype's in the mood, he is a MOTHERFUCKER to debate.....sure am glad we usually have similar opinions of fighters and issues....lol...including this one...

Although, it must be said that I personally have Pacquiao as my #1....even though Mayweather is clearly more skilled and would Own him at will if they were transformed into the exact same weight with the same proportions.

The only reason I don't have him at #1 now is due to his sabbatical....that's important to me...activity....that's why Vasquez keeps falling off...Hopkins keeps falling...and et cetera....

Anyway....after Mayweather wins another fight against a solid name around his size, he SHOULD be #1 on EVERYONE'S list...


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But you're CRAZY too...now I'm gonna have to get on you too CEO.

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If you think Mayweather beats Pacquiao RIGHT NOW, then you should have Mayweather as #1 RIGHT NOW!

So you're telling me that you think Manny Pacquiao is the #1 pound-for-pound-I-can-whip-any-motherfucker-out-there-in-any-weight-class boxer in the world, but he can't beat Floyd Mayweather.

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What kind of shit is that?

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That's like saying you think the Lions are the best team in the NFL, but you think the Patriots will beat them.

If they're the best, then no one can beat them...period!

Don't get me wrong...that was a long sabbatical and I wouldn't dare throw him back in the list just because he says he's coming back. Prior to September 19th, I had a lot of questions as to how he would look...now that I've seen him though, in my opinion, he hasn't lost a damn thing. In fact, I thought he looked even better...way better than I expected. So much so that I completely flipped...I mean, for a long time, I was big on Pacquiao's chances against Floyd. After I saw what Floyd did to Marquez though....wooooooooo....fuck that. The King is back baby! He's come for his throne! I think there's a good chance that Manny might get himself knocked out by Floyd. Marquez was smart enough to shut himself down and not take any stupid chances...he knew better...just like they all knew better and they all shut down when Floyd started teeing off on them...you see it time and time again...the smart ones do that...Marquez, De La Hoya, Judah, Corley...when they don't want to get fucked up anymore, they stop fighting, make that silent agreement and are content to go the distance...the dumbs one though...Hatton, Mitchell, Gatti, Bruseles...they get their ass knocked out. Manny, I'm assuming, will be one of the smart ones once Floyd starts blasting him with his own fast-as-shit lead straight right....woooooooo....the left hooks....woooooooooo...the elbows to the grill.....wooooooooo....that short ass right body shot that he just jabs into the ribs on the inside.....woooooooooooo.....I can picture that now. If he's dumb and he keeps trying to leap in with some stupid shit....wooooooooooooooo....forget about it.

Yeah bro, I don't think Floyd has lost anything. Sure, he was doing all of that against a smaller guy...but I don't think that mattered. Floyd's not small, he's a big dude. I don't think any welterweight will have any size advantage on him so I don't need to see him in with a "real" welterweight in order to know that I'd favor him over anyone. I don't see how Cotto would beat him. I don't see how Clottey would beat him. I don't see how Mosley would beat him and I don't see how Manny, who would be another "smaller" guy, would beat him.

When I'm talking about a motherfucker like that...well...that there sounds like the best damn motherfuckin boxer on the planet!

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Damn...I think I'm ramblin now...the alcohol is startin to hit me.
AussieLad
What hype is sayin is that if you think floyd is more skilled than pac, then floyd actually doesnt need to fight anyone. As long as you think floyd would win, he could fight flyweights from here to eternity and never budge off that list.

Let the less skilled fighters challenge themselves, take risks, make big fights, scream in floyds deaf ears for a fight. Floyd apparently has big enough laurels that he can coast on them for as long as he likes
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