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Full Version: Did the 2 pounds affect Cotto?
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Snoop
It wasn't talked about much during the match and kind of faded away after the initial signing of the fight of Cotto being forced to come down 2 pounds under the WW limit. My opinion is that physically, it didn't affect Cotto, at least not directly. Cotto looked to be in the best shape of his life at the weigh-in. But I think mentally it may have fucked with him from training a week earlier than normal to just making him believe he was coming in at a handicap. I know people are going to bring up how Cotto weighed in at 146 for the Clottey fight, but anyone who has fought competitively before knows that even making 1lb can be a challenge. Thoughts?
Snoop
Also, feel free to just put any excuses, from "Manny is taking steroids" to "This is not the same Cotto since Margarito." I figure excuses are going to be spread throughout all the threads. We might as well consolidate them here.
Maxy
No excuses.

I thought Cotto would win but he got brutally battered by the better fighter. If he wasn't happy with the 145 limit he shouldn't have taken the fight in the first place.
Snoop
QUOTE (Maxy @ Nov 15 2009, 12:55 PM) *
No excuses.

I thought Cotto would win but he got brutally battered by the better fighter. If he wasn't happy with the 145 limit he shouldn't have taken the fight in the first place.

But what I'm asking is, "Do you think if Cotto was allowed to be at 147, the fight would have turned out differently?"

Cotto knew what he was getting into and is the LAST guy to make any excuses. His willingness to stay for an interview after such a beating AND admit that Manny Pacquiao is a great fighter showed just how classy Cotto is.
The Original MrFactor
Manny is a roider... Look at that head!! Either that or he was wearing Black headgear during the fight!!! He'll never beat Mayweather... Ya cant beat what ya cant fight...
Keith
The 2 lbs did not affect Cotto. He was beaten by a better fighter. That dude is awesome.

Maxy
QUOTE (snoopnick @ Nov 15 2009, 08:02 AM) *
But what I'm asking is, "Do you think if Cotto was allowed to be at 147, the fight would have turned out differently?"

Cotto knew what he was getting into and is the LAST guy to make any excuses. His willingness to stay for an interview after such a beating AND admit that Manny Pacquiao is a great fighter showed just how classy Cotto is.


No, having watched Pac take him apart so comprehensively I don't think two pounds made any difference. He may have been slightly stronger and psychologically he may have felt more confident in himself, but it wouldn't have made a difference to the outcome.

Pac proved to be far and away the better fighter.
torvix2000
Cotto was getting tagged by Pac's vicious right hooks and crosses. He has no answer for that.
JLUVBABY
weight had no bearing on this fight... that damn pacman...lol...
Douchebag
NO
caneman
Wow, good to see some guys in this thread are showing the class that Cotto did! Mad props for that. This wasn't about weight & 2 lbs didn't mean anything. It was a NATURALLY smaller guy who has put the work in & has the God given talent to do what he does! And just wondering, all you guys crying roids, did you say that about PBoiF?
BrutalBodyShots
My excuse for Cotto is that he wasn't able to fight a disciplined enough fight (box, strong jab).

Prior to the fight I picked Pacquiao by stoppage and didn't think that Cotto had the ability to win it outside of a fluke perfect KO shot... but after watching the first few rounds it was clear to me that Cotto COULD win the fight should he fight a perfectly disciplined boxing match... working off the jab and countering Pac (which he did nicely at times) on his way in.

Method
Agreed, Brute.

But the better man won. Cotto needs a real fucking trainer. I suspect he has/had one foot out the door of the sport. That was a cash out.
caneman
QUOTE (BrutalBodyShots @ Nov 15 2009, 10:28 AM) *
My excuse for Cotto is that he wasn't able to fight a disciplined enough fight (box, strong jab).

Prior to the fight I picked Pacquiao by stoppage and didn't think that Cotto had the ability to win it outside of a fluke perfect KO shot... but after watching the first few rounds it was clear to me that Cotto COULD win the fight should he fight a perfectly disciplined boxing match... working off the jab and countering Pac (which he did nicely at times) on his way in.



I disagree & Pacman would have handled him no matter what IMO! It's clear where you are with it though...it is showing up in every thread you go in!
BigG
No. But enough catchweights. It's clear Pacquaio can compete at 147. It's his best weight ever, IMO.
salvador
QUOTE (snoopnick @ Nov 15 2009, 07:53 AM) *
Also, feel free to just put any excuses, from "Manny is taking steroids" to "This is not the same Cotto since Margarito." I figure excuses are going to be spread throughout all the threads. We might as well consolidate them here.


I don't think bringing up the Marg fight is an excuse. It's a fact of Cotto's past and I do think it was a factor. That doesn't diminish the win for Pac, it is just one of many factors in the fight. Pac's moving up in weight was also a factor, as was Cotto's recent cuts in big fights ect.

The steroids thing just seems like a natural question given how common they seem to be and how unusual Pac's transformation has been over the past few years. The guy started at 108 and his fight with Marquez was at 130 just 19 months ago. And yet on a relative basis, Pac seemed stronger, sturdier, and faster at 147 than he did at 130. How many times has that ever happened in boxing? It's hard for me to imagine why this question seems out of line.

Pac's performance last night was one of the most impressive/dominating performance over a world class fighter that I have ever seen and I don't see it as clouded by either of the above issues unless he tests positive for roids in the future.

Seriously though, if he did test positive for steroids, would you be shocked?

BrutalBodyShots
QUOTE (caneman @ Nov 15 2009, 10:32 AM) *
I disagree & Pacman would have handled him no matter what IMO! It's clear where you are with it though...it is showing up in every thread you go in!


When you say "handled" do you mean in the same fashion as we saw last night or simply getting the W?

Yes there's a good chance Pac would have still won if Cotto fought a disciplined fight as he did early, but without question he lasts 2 more minutes and sees the final bell, and would have won at least a few more rounds along the way (ie a closer, more competitive fight).

Snoop
Just thought this was interesting. From Dan Rafael:

"Some in boxing, including Roach, thought Cotto had been slowed by his devastating loss last year to Antonio Margarito and would be further slowed by having to come in 2 pounds lower than his normal weight."

Cotto definitely looked a lot slower in there for me, but I think the biggest factor was the fact that Miguel didn't keep using that jab, as most of the posters on here are saying. I only bring up the 2lbs because it gets lost in the whole thing, when I DO it did make a difference.

And good God Maxy, they really gave it to you on the sig bet....
caneman
QUOTE (BrutalBodyShots @ Nov 15 2009, 10:47 AM) *
When you say "handled" do you mean in the same fashion as we saw last night or simply getting the W?

Yes there's a good chance Pac would have still won if Cotto fought a disciplined fight as he did early, but without question he lasts 2 more minutes and sees the final bell, and would have won at least a few more rounds along the way (ie a closer, more competitive fight).


What I mean is basically the same fashion...IMO there is a reason why Cotto didn't do or keep doing the things you talked about & that reason was Pacman. I see your points but to me, Cotto didn't do those things cause he couldn't & ended up eating too many hard shots...with that said, I agree Cotto looked somewhat better early on but it stopped when Pacman started hitting Cotto with power shots & when a guy lands 60% of those shots, I can't see how you are gonna win.

And as far as diciplined goes, that is what Pacman did, being patient & waiting instead of going in for the kill. Cotto has & showed heart but Pac could have taken him out from about 6th round on if he pushed it. He was hurting Cotto badly & Cotto didn't like it @ all!
EpTXCHAMP
i dnt think so...


NOw people that say it did or are looking for a knock on pacs win..will have nothing to say IF (I know its a big IF)...floyd fights pac because there is no way floyd agrees to a "catch weight" thus we'd have our first fight where pacs opponent can weigh at the weight he fights at comfortably
Lil-lightsout
I don't like the way Cotto lost so much snap on his punches midway through the fight. Maybe Cotto was a little drained, but who knows for sure? Regardless, that is the weight Cotto agreed on and he lost, so it's his own fault anyway. But I agree this should not take away from Pac's victory. It was a special performance by Manny.
neophyte7
Face it... Cotto has gotten hit too much. He is finito. He has taken too much punishment. Period.
caneman
QUOTE (Lil-lightsout @ Nov 15 2009, 02:27 PM) *
I don't like the way Cotto lost so much snap on his punches midway through the fight. Maybe Cotto was a little drained, but who knows for sure? Regardless, that is the weight Cotto agreed on and he lost, so it's his own fault anyway. But I agree this should not take away from Pac's victory. It was a special performance by Manny.



I think that was what Pac was doing to his face!
Nay_Sayer
QUOTE (neophyte7 @ Nov 15 2009, 01:45 PM) *
Face it... Cotto has gotten hit too much. He is finito. He has taken too much punishment. Period.

Yep. Cotto is shop worn. He's taken too many beatings. Judah, Shane, Margarito, Clottey, and now this....
caneman
QUOTE (Nay_Sayer @ Nov 15 2009, 04:15 PM) *
Yep. Cotto is shop worn. He's taken too many beatings. Judah, Shane, Margarito, Clottey, and now this....



Ouch Nay Sayer, that is one rough sig meng!
Fitz
QUOTE (BrutalBodyShots @ Nov 16 2009, 02:28 AM) *
My excuse for Cotto is that he wasn't able to fight a disciplined enough fight (box, strong jab).

Prior to the fight I picked Pacquiao by stoppage and didn't think that Cotto had the ability to win it outside of a fluke perfect KO shot... but after watching the first few rounds it was clear to me that Cotto COULD win the fight should he fight a perfectly disciplined boxing match... working off the jab and countering Pac (which he did nicely at times) on his way in.


I agree 100% Brutal. Cotto implemented the jab early and Manny looked stuck. Cotto wasn't coming to him and Manny could land when he wanted to. Cotto was outboxing him with that jab and timing him perfectly. Cotto then got confident and tried to trade with him and he got out worked and out punched. Manny is still a beatable fighter. I hate Mayweather as everyone knows but Mayweather will beat him.
I am actually very confident that Mayweather will beat Pacquiao, I am like C.E.O confident for this one. I am praying that Mayweather will be a slight underdog if they fight.
kidbazooka1
It may have had an affect but it wouldn't have changed the outcome. Cotto fought a great fight but Manny is a monster i don't see anyone beating him any time soon.
Nay_Sayer
QUOTE (caneman @ Nov 15 2009, 03:20 PM) *
Ouch Nay Sayer, that is one rough sig meng!

Brutal!

lol...
Nay_Sayer
QUOTE (BrutalBodyShots @ Nov 15 2009, 09:28 AM) *
My excuse for Cotto is that he wasn't able to fight a disciplined enough fight (box, strong jab).

Prior to the fight I picked Pacquiao by stoppage and didn't think that Cotto had the ability to win it outside of a fluke perfect KO shot... but after watching the first few rounds it was clear to me that Cotto COULD win the fight should he fight a perfectly disciplined boxing match... working off the jab and countering Pac (which he did nicely at times) on his way in.

Yep. Cotto should have been BOXING from round one. Cotto lacks the handspeed, accuracy, and DEFENSE to stand and trade with Pacquiao.

A few things I did notice;

Cotto was able to find a home for his left hook - especially as a counter punch.

In a few instances during the fight, Cotto turned to a Southpaw stance which seemed to completely confuse Pacquiao.
BrutalBodyShots
Fitz,

I imagine that odds for Pac/Mayweather would be damn near even... maybe the slightest of weight toward Pac due to this last performance. What do you think the lines would open up at and end up at?
Fitz
QUOTE (BrutalBodyShots @ Nov 16 2009, 01:19 PM) *
Fitz,

I imagine that odds for Pac/Mayweather would be damn near even... maybe the slightest of weight toward Pac due to this last performance. What do you think the lines would open up at and end up at?


I think they would be fairly even as well. Nobody will be a solid favourite IMO. Though I would maybe expect Pacquiao to get money on him and be a slight edge. But then again I think Mayweather has a bigger name world wide amongst casual fans. This is tough, I could see either guy gaining a slight edge, lol. But either way it will be fairly even and even if a guy is a slight favourite. It will be nothing.
Snoop
QUOTE (Fitz @ Nov 16 2009, 03:40 AM) *
I think they would be fairly even as well. Nobody will be a solid favourite IMO. Though I would maybe expect Pacquiao to get money on him and be a slight edge. But then again I think Mayweather has a bigger name world wide amongst casual fans. This is tough, I could see either guy gaining a slight edge, lol. But either way it will be fairly even and even if a guy is a slight favourite. It will be nothing.

After this TIME magazine comes out, Pacquiao's name is going to GROW. Couple that with the hysteria Pac is created, how much people hate Floyd and all the flack he's getting right now, it's almost creating this, "Floyd isn't as good as he claims he is" type vibe. I wouldn't be surprised if the lines were in favor of Pac, and if it is, I'm betting BIG on it.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Nov 15 2009, 10:08 AM) *
weight had no bearing on this fight... that damn pacman...lol...

Agreed..Weight wouldn't have effected the fight..After Pac-man felt him out the first round Cotto wasn't able to convincingly stay ahead of Pac-man..Too much speed,combos,and angles from Pac-man got Cotto all done in..I thought the 2 lbs would do somethin but he was still landing hard shots and trading with Pac-man..Pac-man has shown he can take a very good welterweight punch..He definitely awnsered that question for me..
Tha Docta
i dont think the weight would have allowed cotto to win, but it surely would have meant a little extra punishment for manny. cotto just looked like he was moving in slow motion after a few rounds.
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