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SmartyBeardo
This is my first attempt at starting a new thread here. I thought about putting it in Classic Boxing but there are certainly some current boxers that may enter the fray.

I will withhold my choice to see if anyone comes up with him first.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ Nov 28 2009, 06:49 AM) *
This is my first attempt at starting a new thread here. I thought about putting it in Classic Boxing but there are certainly some current boxers that may enter the fray.

I will withhold my choice to see if anyone comes up with him first.


good luck on getting a responce to this thread... i started a very similar thread to this a a couple of weeks ago and not a single responce.... i think its an interesting topic tho so this is what my thoughts where.... at heavyweight def. harry wills... early 20's, white america has finally some say bought the belt back from jack johnson and golden boy jack dempsey is champ now... Lord forbid they allow another black man to win the most coveted crown in all of sports again.... dempsey used the color barrior to never fight the man, and from what ive read in the past is on record saying he would never fight a black man (this may not have been so true tho)... 2 things my grandfather talked about when i was a kid growing up... number 1 was the mythical unsanctioned fights that dempsey and johnson supposedly took place in back in the 20's... some think they happened others think it is what it is... talk... theres no documents of them but my grandfather stood firm on the fact that they did take place and johnson got the better of dempsey everytime... the second was talks of harry wills.... again gramps stood on it like a rock that had they fought wills would surely have gotten the better of him... i must admit ive got lots of footage of dempsey and johnson but have only seen a little footage of harry wills and that was only of him training etc.... but from what ive read it appears he would be a great canidate for that spot at heavyweight...

another that comes to mind is charlie burley at middleweight... another great great fighter that was denied his shot at the crown...
Maxy
Burley stands out as one but I would also add Sam Langford and from an English standpoint, Herol Graham. Graham was much better than Benn and Eubank.
ROLL DEEP
QUOTE (Maxy @ Nov 28 2009, 11:19 AM) *
Burley stands out as one but I would also add Sam Langford and from an English standpoint, Herol Graham. Graham was much better than Benn and Eubank.



Yup, poor old Herol Graham.



What a shame. So long in the sport, such skill and never a world title cray.gif
JLUVBABY
graham was a solid fighter but he fought at a time when middle and super middle was pretty well loaded up with talent...
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Nov 28 2009, 08:23 AM) *
good luck on getting a responce to this thread... i started a very similar thread to this a a couple of weeks ago and not a single responce.... i think its an interesting topic tho so this is what my thoughts where.... at heavyweight def. harry wills... early 20's, white america has finally some say bought the belt back from jack johnson and golden boy jack dempsey is champ now... Lord forbid they allow another black man to win the most coveted crown in all of sports again.... dempsey used the color barrior to never fight the man, and from what ive read in the past is on record saying he would never fight a black man (this may not have been so true tho)... 2 things my grandfather talked about when i was a kid growing up... number 1 was the mythical unsanctioned fights that dempsey and johnson supposedly took place in back in the 20's... some think they happened others think it is what it is... talk... theres no documents of them but my grandfather stood firm on the fact that they did take place and johnson got the better of dempsey everytime... the second was talks of harry wills.... again gramps stood on it like a rock that had they fought wills would surely have gotten the better of him... i must admit ive got lots of footage of dempsey and johnson but have only seen a little footage of harry wills and that was only of him training etc.... but from what ive read it appears he would be a great canidate for that spot at heavyweight...

another that comes to mind is charlie burley at middleweight... another great great fighter that was denied his shot at the crown...

Thanks for the post. Interesting info from your grandfather. Since it doesn't look like anyone else is interested in this thread, I will throw in a few names;

I agree with you about Harry Wills, but I was wondering if your grandfather ever talked about Sam Langford. He, Wills and Joe Jeanette fought each other multiple times over many years because they were so seldom allowed to fight white boxers. Another black heavy that I read about awhile back was Peter Jackson. He fought in the 1880s and 90s. Sullivan refused to fight him (or any black fighter). He fought Corbett before he became champ, for something like 50 rounds/4 plus hours. some consider him better than Johnson. I find that hard to believe.

Jose Basora (77-20-7) fought once a month for years. He fought LaMotta 4 times ( draw, decision W, decision L, KO L). He lost to Kid Tunero and achieved a draw with Sugar Ray Robinson in his prime. Late in his career he got his only title shot in his 2nd fight with Robinson. Robinson KOed him in 50 seconds. He did a ton for boxing in Puerto Rico.

Kid Tunero (97-32-16) is a legendary Cuban boxer mainly because there is so little info out there about him. He was purported to be so highly trained and skilled that he would frustrate seasoned pros to distraction.

Jose Medel (69-31-8) is probably the best Mexican fighter never to have won the championship. Definitely the best bantam weight IMO.

Henry Cooper (40-15-1) is probably the most beloved boxer in UK history. He fought Ali before he had changed his name. I remember my Dad cheering when Cooper put Ali down in the 4th (I think). It was one of the first fights I remember seeing on TV but even then I could not figure out why he was cheering against the American. Ali was saved by the bell, no doubt. Cooper lost several bouts by TKO for bleeding. He had one of the greatest left hooks in boxing history. He is the one that Ali coined the phrase "he hit me so hard my ancestors in Africa felt it" about.

Last but not least (but probably destined to be the most ridiculed) there is the tragic Duk Koo Kim (17-2-1). IMO if he would have been lucky enough to have a great trainer like Pacman has been blessed with he would have been a champion. Mancini was at the height of his career and the Korean kid stood in there with him. I honestly thought he was going to win that fight at the end of 10 rounds. It would have been a very close decision if it had ended in 12. He was just too tough for his own good and too green to finish Mancini. It is well known that Mancini nearly quit that fight. Duk Koo Kim should not have been in that ring that night. He was not ready for it career wise. But his heart symbolizes the toughness of the Korean people. The ROK Marines who terrified the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese during the Viet Nam war. The young men who loved to duke it out on Friday and Saturday night street corners in Seoul and other cities in the 70's when I served there. The Koreans who have suffered centuries of discrimination at the hands of the the Japanese and Chinese. The Koreans who have built an economic powerhouse thanks to the help of the USA. The Rok Marines who more than once knocked me on my ass in Pohang. Duk Koo Kim was the greatest fighter never to become champion.
True-Boxing-Fan
What about Emmanuel Augustus.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ Nov 28 2009, 10:30 AM) *
Thanks for the post. Interesting info from your grandfather. Since it doesn't look like anyone else is interested in this thread, I will throw in a few names;

I agree with you about Harry Wills, but I was wondering if your grandfather ever talked about Sam Langford. He, Wills and Joe Jeanette fought each other multiple times over many years because they were so seldom allowed to fight white boxers. Another black heavy that I read about awhile back was Peter Jackson. He fought in the 1880s and 90s. Sullivan refused to fight him (or any black fighter). He fought Corbett before he became champ, for something like 50 rounds/4 plus hours. some consider him better than Johnson. I find that hard to believe.

Jose Basora (77-20-7) fought once a month for years. He fought LaMotta 4 times ( draw, decision W, decision L, KO L). He lost to Kid Tunero and achieved a draw with Sugar Ray Robinson in his prime. Late in his career he got his only title shot in his 2nd fight with Robinson. Robinson KOed him in 50 seconds. He did a ton for boxing in Puerto Rico.

Kid Tunero (97-32-16) is a legendary Cuban boxer mainly because there is so little info out there about him. He was purported to be so highly trained and skilled that he would frustrate seasoned pros to distraction.

Jose Medel (69-31-8) is probably the best Mexican fighter never to have won the championship. Definitely the best bantam weight IMO.

Henry Cooper (40-15-1) is probably the most beloved boxer in UK history. He fought Ali before he had changed his name. I remember my Dad cheering when Cooper put Ali down in the 4th (I think). It was one of the first fights I remember seeing on TV but even then I could not figure out why he was cheering against the American. Ali was saved by the bell, no doubt. Cooper lost several bouts by TKO for bleeding. He had one of the greatest left hooks in boxing history. He is the one that Ali coined the phrase "he hit me so hard my ancestors in Africa felt it" about.

Last but not least (but probably destined to be the most ridiculed) there is the tragic Duk Koo Kim (17-2-1). IMO if he would have been lucky enough to have a great trainer like Pacman has been blessed with he would have been a champion. Mancini was at the height of his career and the Korean kid stood in there with him. I honestly thought he was going to win that fight at the end of 10 rounds. It would have been a very close decision if it had ended in 12. He was just too tough for his own good and too green to finish Mancini. It is well known that Mancini nearly quit that fight. Duk Koo Kim should not have been in that ring that night. He was not ready for it career wise. But his heart symbolizes the toughness of the Korean people. The ROK Marines who terrified the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese during the Viet Nam war. The young men who loved to duke it out on Friday and Saturday night street corners in Seoul and other cities in the 70's when I served there. The Koreans who have suffered centuries of discrimination at the hands of the the Japanese and Chinese. The Koreans who have built an economic powerhouse thanks to the help of the USA. The Rok Marines who more than once knocked me on my ass in Pohang. Duk Koo Kim was the greatest fighter never to become champion.


my gramps didnt speak much on langford tho his name did come up a lil in fight talk... the heavies my grandfather was the biggest on where jersey joe walcott rocky marciano and larry holmes so i heard a lot about them.... then of course we talked a lot about mike tyson back in the 80's and gramps always felt a prime holmes would beat him.... he died in 95 but he always figured the best heavyweight he ever saw was holmes... he had this thing for larry holmes... as for langford and jeanette and mcvey and guys like that we would discuss them after i would read about them... i grew up in the mid and late 70s and the 80's so there was no internet and youtube to get the info so i read all the books and diffrent encyclopedias i could to learn about the old fighters and the history of the sport... but back to the dempsey vs johnson myth that one always intrigued me.. ive talked to a few people thats heard stories on it but like i said its hard to look up because there is no documented evidence of it... they where illegal and unsanctioned fights if they did take place...
JLUVBABY
there was a kronk fighter that comes to mind as well... fought a lot on usa network back in the late 80's but quit boxing due to his religeous beliefs... i have some of his fights on vhs but cant think of his name... he would have for sure made noise had he continued....

jamel hinton

thats his boxrec record...


Maxy
Sam Langford actually fought a relative of mine - Iron Hague. Hague was briefly British heavyweight champion and Langford knocked him spark out in 4 rounds. Old timers used to tell him he was something else. Sadly they are all dead now so I can't ask any stories.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (Maxy @ Nov 28 2009, 11:37 AM) *
Sam Langford actually fought a relative of mine - Iron Hague. Hague was briefly British heavyweight champion and Langford knocked him spark out in 4 rounds. Old timers used to tell him he was something else. Sadly they are all dead now so I can't ask any stories.


thats pretty cool maxy... i just looked him up on boxrec... i bet he was a hard fighter... all those guys where hard back in those days...
Spyder
QUOTE (True-Boxing-Fan @ Nov 28 2009, 11:39 AM) *
What about Emmanuel Augustus.

Good call.
darroy
jerry quarry was an excellent fighter. unfortunately for him he just competed in the greatest heavyweight era ever! oba carr was really good as well. ray mercer never even got to fight for the title because when he fought l lewis and holyfield they weren't beltholders at the time. ike ibeabuchi also comes to mind. angel manfredy is another. when he beat gatti, gatti was 130 lb ibf champ and their fight was at 135 lbs. none of these guys ever were MAJOR world title holders. rocky juarez looks to be another guy on that list.
True-Boxing-Fan
I used to love watching Ray Oliveira fight on ESPN. He was a nonstop action fighter and his fights were never boring. He fought for the title twice in back to back efforts but lost each time. He fought a lot of great fighters in his time. I could be wrong but I think he has the record for most punches thrown in a round.
True-Boxing-Fan
There's also former 1976 Olympic Gold Medalist Howard Davis. He fought for the title 3 times and never won it. After the Olympics in '76 and turning pro, he was being treating in the same way as Sugar Ray Leonard with big money being thrown at him. People were expecting great things from him. But he never became a World Champion.
Keith
Felix Savon.

6'5". Beautiful jab. Long dominating right hand. Athletic for a HW.

If he had turned pro at any point he could of competed with the likes of Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis, etc.
xxxxxx
QUOTE (True-Boxing-Fan @ Nov 28 2009, 04:10 PM) *
There's also former 1976 Olympic Gold Medalist Howard Davis. He fought for the title 3 times and never won it. After the Olympics in '76 and turning pro, he was being treating in the same way as Sugar Ray Leonard with big money being thrown at him. People were expecting great things from him. But he never became a World Champion.



What about Dana Rosenblatt...the dude that retired Howard Davis. He was a good boxer who never became world champion.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (Keith @ Nov 28 2009, 02:30 PM) *
Felix Savon.

6'5". Beautiful jab. Long dominating right hand. Athletic for a HW.

If he had turned pro at any point he could of competed with the likes of Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis, etc.


that would have been sumthin to see savon in that heavyweight mix of the late 80's and 90's.... would have liked to have seen teofelio stevenson testing the heavies of the late 70's and 80s too... my only question is could they have been effective past 5 or 6 rounds?... they where good but where they conditioned to go the extra rounds?... i suppose training could have got them there but how would that have changed their style?
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ Nov 28 2009, 05:30 PM) *
Another black heavy that I read about awhile back was Peter Jackson. He fought in the 1880s and 90s. Sullivan refused to fight him (or any black fighter). He fought Corbett before he became champ, for something like 50 rounds/4 plus hours. some consider him better than Johnson. I find that hard to believe.


Peter Jackson was a great fighter who fought all over the world.

I cannot say anyone who did not will a alphabet soup title because there are so fucking many that if you don't win one then you must not be much good then. When I think of great fighters I think of guys that campaigned when there were 8 belts & 8 divisions type of deal.

Guys like Lew Tendler are the type of guy I think of. Real hall of famers who would have won multiple titles today.
Maxy
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Nov 28 2009, 06:18 PM) *
I cannot say anyone who did not will a alphabet soup title because there are so fucking many that if you don't win one then you must not be much good then.


Yeah, that nails it.
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (Keith @ Nov 28 2009, 04:30 PM) *
Felix Savon.

6'5". Beautiful jab. Long dominating right hand. Athletic for a HW.

If he had turned pro at any point he could of competed with the likes of Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis, etc.

He and Teofilo were just impressive specimens. If they had great trainers and management, it would have made there eras that much more interesting. I believe Savon would have been a champion. Stevenson I am not so sure about though.
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Nov 28 2009, 07:18 PM) *
Peter Jackson was a great fighter who fought all over the world.

I cannot say anyone who did not will a alphabet soup title because there are so fucking many that if you don't win one then you must not be much good then. When I think of great fighters I think of guys that campaigned when there were 8 belts & 8 divisions type of deal.

Guys like Lew Tendler are the type of guy I think of. Real hall of famers who would have won multiple titles today.

Yeah, that is the problem today and what has threatened the sport itself.
mexi-cutioner
Z GORRES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't know if it's too soon to add him on here....but his career is over after falling into a coma after his last bout just over 2 weeks ago. He lost a controversial split decision to Fernando Montiel and had a draw vs Vic Darchinyan..he was bound to receive a title imo until his accident
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (mexi-cutioner @ Nov 29 2009, 08:16 AM) *
Z GORRES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't know if it's too soon to add him on here....but his career is over after falling into a coma after his last bout just over 2 weeks ago. He lost a controversial split decision to Fernando Montiel and had a draw vs Vic Darchinyan..he was bound to receive a title imo until his accident

Nice call! That is why I put this in "Boxing" rather than the Classic section.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (mexi-cutioner @ Nov 29 2009, 01:16 PM) *
Z GORRES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't know if it's too soon to add him on here....but his career is over after falling into a coma after his last bout just over 2 weeks ago. He lost a controversial split decision to Fernando Montiel and had a draw vs Vic Darchinyan..he was bound to receive a title imo until his accident


Yeah a gift draw against Darch. No way not even close to the list. We are talking about real quality fighters. If you can't win a title today then you certainly should not be on this list. It may be harsh but it is true.
mexi-cutioner
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Nov 29 2009, 04:21 PM) *
Yeah a gift draw against Darch. No way not even close to the list. We are talking about real quality fighters. If you can't win a title today then you certainly should not be on this list. It may be harsh but it is true.


A previous poster mentioned Emmanuel Augustus, unless that post was complete satire, than Gorres' name should be mentioned way before the drunken masters' name even comes up
Big Slim Sweet
I love Augustus, but he's ridiculous overrated sometimes.

At heavyweight David Tua and Ray Mercer never held World Titles. Mercer may have been WBO if that counts..
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (mexi-cutioner @ Nov 30 2009, 05:31 AM) *
A previous poster mentioned Emmanuel Augustus, unless that post was complete satire, than Gorres' name should be mentioned way before the drunken masters' name even comes up


Absolutely. The problem is that neither deserve to be on the list.
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Nov 30 2009, 12:35 AM) *
Absolutely. The problem is that neither deserve to be on the list.

Do you think anyone currently active should be on the list?
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (Fitz @ Nov 30 2009, 12:46 AM) *
I can see Stevenski's point. You have had guys like Maussa be a champion and Baldomir an actual undisputed world champion and then guys like David Diaz winning world titles. That just goes to show you that you don't even have to be that great. Maybe not all the time, but generally speaking, if you can't win a world title that generally means you aren't worth being mentioned. Like I said, maybe not the case all the time, but a lot of the times I think it's true.

I think you and Stevenski have excellent points. I really can't give you a name that is currently active, unless it is an up and comer like Funeka, who should have gotten his championship last night.

Williams v Rodriguez should be interesting, by the way.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ Nov 30 2009, 04:38 AM) *
Do you think anyone currently active should be on the list?


I cannot think of a single active fighter that should be mentioned.
BigG
Z Gorres is one of the most skilled fighters to never win a title in recent times.
JLUVBABY
i cant think of an active fighter either... isnt that something about the current fighters that should be brought up once they have a completed their careers?.... i would think thats a future question for our current group of fighters... lol....
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Nov 30 2009, 08:16 PM) *
i cant think of an active fighter either... isnt that something about the current fighters that should be brought up once they have a completed their careers?.... i would think thats a future question for our current group of fighters... lol....

Good argument for this thread to have been relegated to "Classic Boxing."

Any counter argument?
alaganza
QUOTE (True-Boxing-Fan @ Nov 28 2009, 11:39 AM) *
What about Emmanuel Augustus.


You have truly lived up to your moniker.

Emmanuel Augustus is the GOAT. (ok maybe going a bit too far but he's my fav)
King Eugene
Chris Arreola



ok ok ok I was just kidding. laugh.gif You can bet your ass he'll end up with somebodies belt............once the Klits retire of course.
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (King Eugene @ Dec 1 2009, 07:00 AM) *
Chris Arreola



ok ok ok I was just kidding. laugh.gif You can bet your ass he'll end up with somebodies belt............once the Klits retire of course.

This thread would have been more fun if I would have headed with; "The worst boxer/fighter to ever hold a World Championship belt?"

It could go on forever.
blackbelt2003
Joan Guzman would be one active fighter.


In his only ever world title fight, this weekend gone, he looked old and slow, but in his super-bantam to super-feather hey day he was deserved of any of the world titles.


Also Chris Eubank and Herol Graham would have to be two fighters who should have won world titles. Graham was pure unlucky, Eubank was happy defending a minor belt and stayed away, save one fight with Benn for the WBC belt.


David Tua was not a great fighter, but was unlucky considering at one stage two guys he'd KO'd, Hasim Rahman and John Ruiz, both held title belts whilst he was on the outside looking in.



Black
Spyder
One of my first thoughts was David Tua, but he had a couple of shots for a title and lost. The way that Chris Byrd and Lennox Lewis made him look...he didn't deserve the strap.
blackbelt2003
QUOTE (Spyder @ Dec 1 2009, 07:31 PM) *
One of my first thoughts was David Tua, but he had a couple of shots for a title and lost. The way that Chris Byrd and Lennox Lewis made him look...he didn't deserve the strap.



Yeah I sort of agree (except the Bird fight wasn't for a title, so technically he only had one title fight).


But I still feel sort of sorry for the guy when you see Rahman and Ruiz parading world title belts, and poor old Tua must have been sat there thinking, "What the fuck? I knocked both of them out and I can't get a belt?"



Black
rusty_trombone
Did Mickey Ward ever secure some sort of belt? Don't know if he ever should have, he was tough, I guess he was above average. If Maussa gets a belt, so should he.
Maxy
Kirkland Laing!!!
xxxxxx
QUOTE (blackbelt2003 @ Dec 2 2009, 10:12 AM) *
Yeah I sort of agree (except the Bird fight wasn't for a title, so technically he only had one title fight).


But I still feel sort of sorry for the guy when you see Rahman and Ruiz parading world title belts, and poor old Tua must have been sat there thinking, "What the fuck? I knocked both of them out and I can't get a belt?"



Black



Don't forget Tua beat Moorer, Maskaev & Oquenda also. He's also been in the ring with Lewis & Ibeabuchi. Tua was a good pick here Blackbelt. He has fought almost all the top heavyweights and beat some dam good ones too.
Maxy
QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ Dec 5 2009, 03:34 PM) *
Interesting. I think that Laing may be one of the best fighters ever to squander his talent. Thanks for the memories. I hadn't thought of ole Kirkland in decades.


Kirkland Laing was an enigma. For both fights against Colin Jones he admitted to being stoned and I can recall one night personally where he was actually sitting on the wall outside the York Hall before he was due to fight and he was smoking a joint!

Brilliantly talented fighter who lacked the dedication his natural gifts deserved.

Rumour has it that when he boxed Roberto Duran and won a split decision (should have been unanimous because it was obvious he had won), Don King was so furious with his promoter Mickey Duff that he refused to speak to Duff for four years.

Definitely warrants a place in this thread for me. Many, many fighters with far less talent than "The Gifted One" Kirkland Laing have won world titles.
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