Which fighters have experienced maximum reward for minimum risk? (besides the obvious Mayweather and Joe Calz).

1. Lennox Lewis - Heralded as a great heavyweight, yet I can recall anything impressive about his whole entire career.

2. Klitz Bros. - All about timing. Their popularity has more to do with lack of opposition than rising to the top ranks via impressive wins.

3. Kosta Tszu - Like Pavlik, he ONLY had power. Also, like Pavlik, we only know of him because he beat the right opponent at the right time in Zab Judah.

Who else?

* As a sidenote, I highlighted Mayweather and Calz, simply because they were considered THE BEST potentially of all time in their division by some, with no real absolute proof to solidify that claim. Their impressive wins are either over unproven talent that turned out to be tomato cans anyway, or fighters with impressive names...but not in their prime.

Prepare to get flammed dude!... LOL

All I could do was SMH, when I read that Tzsyu only had power.

yep. He set himself up bad with that one.

I'm a little confused by the title of thread and its actual content. If someone purposely chooses easy fights for maximum reward it doesn't make them lucky. You also mention shortcuts but none of these guys had any easy ones. I guess you could say that Mayweather, since 2003, has chosen the least demanding fights that made him a lot of dought but that doesn't mean he's lucky. Lennox Lewis was somewhat UNLUCKY that Bowe wouldn;t fight him and that when he finally started to be known, Holyfield and Tyson were past their best. He did fight everyone though and beat them all.

Calzaghe took the path of least resistance for much of his career but finally had to step in against Lacy and then Kessler. KO Tzsyu fought tough guys like gonzalez, Tackie, Mithcell 2X, Judah so I don't know what's lucky about that.

Now the Klits, there I agree. They are lucky because they have come along at a time when the Heavyweights ar at one of their lowest points.

As to the subject of shortcuts, I thought you were going to mention shortcuts like DLH getting title shots at an early age or David Reid fighitng Boudani after only 12 fights. Those are shortcuts.

What else did he have? What historically relevant wins does he have on his record?

Finish this comparison for me:

Mayweather has phenomenal speed

Whitaker has a phenomenal defense

Kostya Tzsu has PHENOMENAL...???

The point of your thread is who was lucky and which boxers have experienced maximum reward for minimum risk. Well like I said before, Tzsyu was not lucky, he had to fight the best of the division. Moreover, Tzyu, apart from having great power as you mentioned, also had great stamina, resolve, chin, smarts and a GREAT sense of timing. I imagine you've been watching boxing for a good deal of time and thus know that it takes more than a set of heavy hands to accomplish what Tzsyu did. Hell, if heavy hands was all that was needed to be a champ then Randall Bailey, Edison Miranda and Kofi Juntuah would be kings of boxing right now.

Kostya Tzsu has PHENOMENAL TIMING.





/Thread

I see where you would be confused. I am basically highlight the difference between a road earned to prestige, and one basically handed out.

Paul Williams had earned every bit of fame he has received, no matter how limited. Bernard, Winky, etc...are all fighters who clawed their way to the top of their divisions.
A person like Kelly Pavlik is LUCKY...as he simply benefited from an opportunity to beat the supposed "next potential legend" in his division, which turned out to be a bust in reality.

Lacey and Kessler was not a "step up". They were mediocre at best fighters. He simply got the chance to expose them first, thus making him look better than he actually was. The Roy Jones win, as well. That's why he is lucky.

Also, by reward...I was moreso referring to their credibility rather than their wallet.

Points noted. I think the difference I am trying to get across is fighters like Tszu's level of fame vs Erik Morales, JMM, Antonio Barrera, etc...and what THEY had to do for the boxing world to say "DAMN, THESE ARE GOOD FIGHTERS!! "...by overall comparison. The fighters I named (Tszu, Lewis, etc.) had to do FAR/SIGNIFICANTLY LESS...to get the same reckognition, if not more. Those are the fighters I am referring to. Beating Sharba Mitchell and Ben Tackie is not that impressive, overall.

Kelly Pavlik had to walk through punchers like Zertuche, Miranda and Taylor to get his title. Infact Arum wasn't paying that much attention to him until after the Zertuche and Miranda fights, so he wasn't exaclty cuddled to the championship.

I will agree with Calzaghe, I think the guy was very selective of who he fought and when he fought them. Like fighting Roy Jones, who he admitted was in shot, instead of fighting Hopkins again. BUt remember that in prior to the LAcy and Kessler fights, they were considered potential threats at the time and he didn't avoid them.

I can't wait til STEVENSKI and Fitz get a hold of this one. LOL.

KEN, I understand your point but I disagree that Tzsyu and Lewis didn't do tham much throughout their careers. How many people have held the undisputed Jr welterweight title or in Lewis's case the Heavyweight one? NOt many. They were special fighters.

The more the merrier. Tell them they are personally invited, if you want. It is all perception based critques. A lot of the posts so far present pretty good counter arguments to my original post, so I wouldnt be the least be offended if someone else disagrees.

Fair enough. Whom would you put in place of them, to make the analogy more accurate?

Joe Calzaghe, Carl Froch and Chris Arreola are boxing's luckiest bastards. They have shit personalities (well, except for Chris), but they have fineass wives.

Like I said before, David Reid, I think he was given an premature opportunity for the WBA belt after only having had 12 fights. DLH has been a guy who has had A LOT of opportunities since he started his career. HOw many fights did he have before he fought Ruelas? At least he capitalized on them though. Another guy who had a lot of opportunities early on but ended up backfiring was Vargas. They should have waited before throwing him in with Trinidad after only 20 fights as a pro.

Lennox Lewis was OVERRATED as a Heavyweight....but still a great. If he fought the prime Tyson, he wouldn't have lasted 3 rounds...

That's exactly what I was thinking. His timing FAR out-weighed his power as his best attribute.

This dude has no clue...

As far as luckiest bastards, I would start the list with Carlos Maussa...and probably stop there.

Agreed. ANTONIO TARVER is THEEEEE LUCKIEST boxer in the history of the world. Dude was doing the talk-show circuit and everything after beating Jones. Nevermind the fact that Jones had to lose a ton of MUSCLE (not fat) to come back down from heavyweight, which definitely played a factor in the loss. He was in movies and some more shizzle. Ridiculous.

If a Prime Lewis fought a Prime Tyson, then Lewis KO's in 8.

No Lewis KO'd a SHOT Tyson in 8...prime Tyson, in the late 80's is a different story.

Antonio Tarver really is a lucky bastard. He's been riding the coattails of his Jones win for far too long.

I actually DO have a clue. Ok, so lets swap out power for timing. Both are opinion as it pertains to which was more important...but, for the sake of argument, lets say you are right.

Now, make your point as to why that aspect of the disagreement even matters when discussing whether or not his recognition was deserved moreso than other fighters mentioned.

Please "clue" me in.

Thanks, in advance.

G, You and I both know that Tyson always had trouble with tall Heavyweights with good jabs. Lewis knew how to control distance, had a stellar jab with a big right hand to follow, and if Tyson did get inside, Lewis knew how to tie up. Lewis would have had Tyson confused and gassed by the late rounds.

Lewis could also be knocked out cold. I think Mike would have tapped that chin before it got to the later rounds.

By sloppy ass Rahman, of all people. Oliver McCall was definitely no Tyson, and look what happened in their first match.

/thread

^^Where was that great timing against Phillips and Hatton? When I was 5, I used to say Nuh-Uh...when I really didnt have a valid counterpoint to what someone was present, or I would simply make something else the point...so as to avoid actually answering the question.

Which one did you just do?

Everyone Tyson fought was taller than he was and had good jabs. Spinks, Holmes, Tucker, Thomas, Biggs, Williams, Bruno,

It was there. He simply lost because of different circumstances. Phillips was ON that night and Tszyu gassed. He hit Hatton plenty of times but Hatton was a beast and was allowed to roughouse Tszyu. So because he lost twice all of a sudden he has no timing? So Pernell Whitaker, who you mentioned before, lost against DLH. Does that prove thet his best attribute, defense, was non existent?

Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. This dude is so lucky to have Sr. as his father. Chavez has basically around 40 pro fights and has yet to fight a decent fighter. And he is headlining PPV cards and fighting on other big time cards and getting paid way more than he is worth. That is what I would call lucky and a shortcut to success.

Out of all those fighters you named, who was as good as a prime Lewis? Holmes was way past it when he fought Tyson.

I'm sure Tyson had the ability to KO Lewis. But Lewis's chin was vastly underrated. He took punches from Tua, Klitschko, Mercer, etc.

Also keep in mind, that the two times Lewis wa KO'd, he was farrr from his best. Im talking, Prime for Prime, on their best nights.

Ok...

You said...





And I named an attribute that I claim was BETTER than the one you listed...so if Kostya Tszyu ONLY had power, as you claimed, then he would have NOTHING ELSE.

Understand?

...and the fact that you completely disregarded the BEST part of his game, showed me that you have absolutely no clue as to what you're talking about.

But now, thanks to me and a few others...you do.

You actually are helping to prove my point. I am saying the argument over Timing vs Power is a foolish distinction to make, and has no bearing on the original question. He had excellent timing. I agree. It was off in those two fights. I agree. His power is what won him his most important match. All true. With that said, I was asking dude to offer an opinion as to WHY any of that means he didnt receive more recognition/undeserved recognition...as opposed to other fighters during that time with a more impressive resume that did not get the same shine, yet worked harder and probably deserved that shine more. THAT is what makes him lucky, and THAT was my original point.

Prime example. He might not be fighting for titles but he is receiving a lot of opportunities that better fighters than him do not get. Think about it, the guy has been in tons of HBO PPV undercards and has been the main event in Mexican telecasts while better fighters are left out in the cold. Unbelievable.

Yep. Thanks for agreeing MMM.

Well who worked harder at 140 at that time who did not receive the accolades Tszyu did? Ray sucra Olivera? Bent Tackie? Sharmba Mitchell?

Also, Tzsyu trained like an animal and had a lot of focus, timing, ring generalship and yes power. You keep bringing up his power as if it was something to be ashamed of. He had power, is that a bad thing? This takes me back to a person who once claimed that the only reason Tyson was good was becuase he had power. Well that's what boxing is about, it's about who is the better equipped to rule. Like I said, Tszyu wasn't good simply because of his power and I would also like to know who else was at 140 at that time who was better than him but never got his chance to shine?

Yes, you did give a clue about how easy it is to twist logic for your own benefit. You answered a question I never asked, and tried to make something else the point...which is why you purposely highlighted that specific section and not my original question. Power and Timing are interchangeable, and are valued according to your particular preference. Some say Mayweather's defense is his best weapon, others say its his speed. Some some Famous Amos cookies taste better than Chips Ahoy. All of these have one thing in common. They have nothing to do with my original question.

Perhaps you should either read faster or simply say "I dont know" when confronted with stumper questions. That would save both of us a lot of time.

Thanks for reading.

???

How can his power be "a bad thing" if I stated that as his main strength, in my opinion, and noted it as his most valuable weapon in defeating Zab? Either way, thats not my argument, as both are speculative as regard to which is more valuable than the other.

Was Kostya, Mayweather, and Mosely around the same weight class? From 2000 to 2005? Do I really need to answer the question regarding whom else was around in that time frame?

You said that Tszyu was only able to beat Judah because of his power. That's a debatable point.

Are you telling me that Tszyu was receiving more priase than Mayweather and Mosley?

Agreed. That is a debatable point, which is why it was never my intent to debate it or make it the focal point, as its only my opinion.

I am not saying he was receiving MORE praise, however, I am saying he was receiving A LOT of praise and shine during that era...with nothing about him being anywhere near as praise-worthy as Mosley, Mayweather, Forrest, etc.

Well that is not entirely true, he was king at 140 and most would argue that is a feat worhty of the praise Mayweather was receiving for having beaten Corrales and for Mosley beating DLH. I think the individuals that fit the subject of your thread are guys like JCC jr and David Reid. Guys who had a strong promotional company behind them at an early age and thus received more opportunities than other more capable pugilists.

Point noted. Very true. Although, I would hesitate to put David Reid in that same boat, as that "advantage" did more detriment than help to him. Had he beaten Tito in the same fashion as Tarver capitalized on his Jones win, then I think they would parrallel.

And which one of those guys is better than prime Lewis?

Both those guys bypassed him to chase bigger money, my man. Let's not forget that little tid bit.

Come on man!........ your name is KENSOFINE. Do you fancy yourself a male model?

Anyway.... I cant figure out what the hell your talking about. You called KT lucky then seemed to reverse that. I'm friggin lost. KT had more then power and timing. That cat was pinpoint. Check out the footage of the Zab ko. He threw a right hand that barely missed Zab right before the one that didnt. That tells me KT was very accurate and was able to make the slightest adjustments 1 right hand later. The result.... chicken Judah. You can call that whatever you want but that dude possessed way more then just power.

His great timing is what knocked a prime Zab the fuck out and got him TKO victories over Mitchell and Leija and don't even mention the Hatton fight because if that would have took place anywhere besides England it would have been a different story.

Again, this guy has no clue.

He has no clue that Kostya and Forrest have a history with each other, and were on a collision course until Mayorga lit the Viper up. He has no clue that Mosley completely bypassed 140...not to fight Oscar, but Wilfredo Rivera. He also has no clue that Kostya was King at 140 when, at the time, it was arguably the best division in boxing.

This guy is a Floyd-hugger in disguise.

I'm not feeling these new posters breh they need to go back from whence they came.