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KENSOFINE
Let's say you are a trainer. In his pro debut, your boxer can only be a 7/10 in every category...but he is 10/10 superior in one aspect. Which aspect would it be?

The attributes are:

Chin
Stamina
Speed
Power
Defense

Which one do you believe to be the most valuable tool for a fighter to develop first, if he is only average in every other aspect?
kingknockout
Chin, without chin his ass shouldn't even be in the ring, then goes stamina. answer to your second question.

your first question, which would be 10/10, his stamina, I can teach him everything else besides having a chin, I'll want his stamina to be amazing, we can work on his offense, speed, and defense..we can work on his stamina too, but i just prefer that to the highest, I would want my fighter to go strong in the late rounds like say an Ali, or Hopkins on his GOOD day.
RollsRoyce
QUOTE (kingknockout @ Dec 15 2009, 04:08 PM) *
Chin, without chin his ass shouldn't even be in the ring, then goes stamina.


a 7/10 isn't exactly crappy.
kingknockout
QUOTE (RollsRoyce @ Dec 15 2009, 04:10 PM) *
a 7/10 isn't exactly crappy.



I never said it was...he has a two part question going on, I went back and answered the second one...and a 7/10 might not be crappy, but it can be better, imagine going against more than one boxer with a power of 8/10 or 9/10 even...so how good is a 7/10 chin going to hold up against that?
KENSOFINE
Royce,

Blah...I was using that as a mid-level to decent range to indicate the fighter being competitive enough to go pro, but not naturally superior enough to dominate. Which attributes do you think will get him close to dominating if all the others stayed the same except for that attribute in particular being 10/10?
RollsRoyce
QUOTE (KENSOFINE @ Dec 15 2009, 03:22 PM) *
Let's say you are a trainer. In his pro debut, your boxer can only be a 7/10 in every category...but he is 10/10 superior in one aspect. Which aspect would it be?

The attributes are:

Chin
Stamina
Speed
Power
Defense

Which one do you believe to be the most valuable tool for a fighter to develop first, if he is only average in every other aspect?


Can we add more attributes?

For instance:

engine/work rate
heart
fundamentals
experience/muscle memory/wisdom

Lemme give examples. Johnson just lost to Klitschko even tho his defense was stellar. He didn't have enough of a work rate to win rds, and his arsenal was limited because he didn't have the experience and knowledge of how and when to throw'em.

Diego Corrales didn't have the greatest chin, but his heart was just unreal and made up for his lack of a chin.

Edison Miranda has one of the most savage right hands I've ever seen. However, he sucks at all the rest of his fundamentals.

If I were to choose one catagory to have my boxer to be superior in, it would be Experience/muscle memory/wisdom.
KENSOFINE
QUOTE (kingknockout @ Dec 15 2009, 04:08 PM) *
Chin, without chin his ass shouldn't even be in the ring, then goes stamina. answer to your second question.

your first question, which would be 10/10, his stamina, I can teach him everything else besides having a chin, I'll want his stamina to be amazing, we can work on his offense, speed, and defense..we can work on his stamina too, but i just prefer that to the highest, I would want my fighter to go strong in the late rounds like say an Ali, or Hopkins on his GOOD day.


Thats what I thought at first too, but I realized something...

Roy ruled for a hot minute without anyone even realizing he didnt have a good chin. Lennox Lewis did well without a chin, too.

I think, for me...stamina should be the priority...cuz you could defeat Mike Tyson, Zab, and a few others just bt lasting. Baldomir was proof of that against Zab.
KENSOFINE
QUOTE (RollsRoyce @ Dec 15 2009, 04:20 PM) *
Can we add more attributes?

For instance:

engine/work rate
heart
fundamentals
experience/muscle memory/wisdom

Lemme give examples. Johnson just lost to Klitschko even tho his defense was stellar. He didn't have enough of a work rate to win rds, and his arsenal was limited because he didn't have the experience and knowledge of how and when to throw'em.

Diego Corrales didn't have the greatest chin, but his heart was just unreal and made up for his lack of a chin.

Edison Miranda has one of the most savage right hands I've ever seen. However, he sucks at all the rest of his fundamentals.

If I were to choose one catagory to have my boxer to be superior in, it would be Experience/muscle memory/wisdom.



No.

The reason why I didnt put heart, is because that not legitimitely trainable. You cant really gauge heart, other than a boxer has it or he doesnt. Engine and work rate are all tied in and are products of the other categories, for the most part. Work rate and engine are the result of good stamina. Branches off the main tree. Fundamentals are at 7. Experience and wisdom are not super developed as a fighter is starting out, usually.

Stick to the script, homie.
Spyder
Stamina.

It doesn't matter how good your speed, power, or defense is if you don't have the gas to use it.
RollsRoyce
QUOTE (KENSOFINE @ Dec 15 2009, 05:25 PM) *
No.

The reason why I didnt put heart, is because that not legitimitely trainable. You cant really gauge heart, other than a boxer has it or he doesnt. Engine and work rate are all tied in and are products of the other categories, for the most part. Work rate and engine are the result of good stamina. Branches off the main tree. Fundamentals are at 7. Experience and wisdom are not super developed as a fighter is starting out, usually.

Stick to the script, homie.


Heart can be taught. Some children are told, "It's not whether u win or lose, but rather if u had fun doing it". Others are taught "Never give up, die trying". Chins can be increased slightly by building neck muscles n stuff, but not much alteration can me made to how well someone takes a punch. They either can or can't.

Engine/work rate have nothing to do with stamina. That's why many fighters gas out. They have a high work rate/engine, but low stamina. Other fighters, like Bernard Hopkins, have great stamina, but rarely throw more than 30 punches a round.

experience/wisdom/muscle memory are products of a long ammy career. Guys like Mosley, Whitaker, Holyfield, DLH, and mayweather all had extensive ammy careers. Now we got a lot of Cuban defects that are ready to challenge for major titles even tho they are only 10 fights into their pro careers because they've got the ammy pedigree.
KENSOFINE
QUOTE (Spyder @ Dec 15 2009, 04:31 PM) *
Stamina.

It doesn't matter how good your speed, power, or defense is if you don't have the gas to use it.


Good point, but gas is only relevant if the fight goes the distance. Jermaine Taylor did ok, initially in his carreer. Tyson is considered a legend by some, and he had terrible stamina. It seems like the obvious choice, but I guess its kinda like paper, scissors, rock.
KENSOFINE
QUOTE (Fitz @ Dec 15 2009, 04:46 PM) *
You could say the same about power, chin and speed to an extent.


Power and speed can very well be developed. Chin is quantifiable by how a boxer reacts to punches, most often.

Can you definitively say who has more heart between Diego and Arturo? They both simply have it, in my opinion. you can say which fighters are faster, more powerful, and who reacts better to hard punches.
RollsRoyce
People that are born with heart and power or any skill don't exist. These traits are products of their up bringing. The big kid is told to play gentle w/ others and so even tho he has tons of power, he never uses all of it because he's been trained that way. However, u get a lil runt of a guy with 10 older brothers, and he has to fight for one biscuit on the table, he's going to be the scrappiest person u'll ever encounter knowing how to exert every muscle they have when needed. These things are nurtured (however u spell that word), not born. That "born with it" crap is just something someone came up with that didn't have it or didn't realize where it came from. Someone with a lot of heart is someone who was trained as a child to be competitive. He/she either had bros or competitive friends. Their parents/coaches pushed them to practice, and showed them they had more in the tank when they didn't even know there was anything there. A solid chin is a psychological thing as well. I could go on but I think yall get the point.

The point is that there is more to a boxer than just one skill set thing. BBBUUUUUUTTTTTTT if I had to choose one item from what was listed, it would be defense. But with that being said, it only matters if the person with the defense has the knowledge of how to turn it into offense. So if having a 10/10 defense includes being a 10/10 counterpuncher, I'll take that one teachable trait.
Spyder
QUOTE (KENSOFINE @ Dec 15 2009, 04:48 PM) *
Good point, but gas is only relevant if the fight goes the distance. Jermaine Taylor did ok, initially in his carreer. Tyson is considered a legend by some, and he had terrible stamina. It seems like the obvious choice, but I guess its kinda like paper, scissors, rock.

Yeah, but neither example fighter is ideal.

Their decline...arguably due to a lack of stanima...is a testament to its fundamental importance.

QUOTE (Fitz @ Dec 15 2009, 05:01 PM) *
Was Tyson taught how to punch with power? Or was he born with power? Does someone like Spinks have power, and it hasn't been brought out because he hasn't been trained properly? See to me that is something you are born with just like heart. You can improve power by teaching a boxer to punch correctly, but usually you either have it or don't. Speed is the same, fighters like RJJ were born with it. You can train to improve it, but usually you have it or don't.
I think it's the same with heart, you either have it or don't. I suppose you can prepare or try gain that confidence by the right sparring, but in the end. I put heart, chin, power and speed all in a category where you are born with or without it, with each category having training that you can improve on. But the base of it comes with what you are born with.

Disagree.

Heart is a moral fiber born from social influences. That's why Chavez Sr has it, and Chavez jr does not.
Lil-lightsout
Flamboyance.
Big Slim Sweet
If every other attribute is solid but not spectacular, and your fighter has that ONE thing in his arsenal that helps him stand out, then I'll go power.

With power you're never out of a fight, no matter how far behind you are. And it'll help you get on HBO, which means more $$ and hopefully an earlier, safer retirement to enjoy a better life.
RollsRoyce
QUOTE (Spyder @ Dec 15 2009, 06:33 PM) *
Disagree.

Heart is a moral fiber born from social influences. That's why Chavez Sr has it, and Chavez jr does not.


Glad someone agrees
Keith
If it was strictly in the best interest of the fighter I was training and not in terms of what would pay the bills the easiest......Defense. Fighters with a good defense typically have much longer careers. Having a great chin would be nice but in some ways it might deter a fighter from developing proper defense, example Margarito and Mayorga.

In terms of paying the bills, it would be speed or power. People pay money to see those attributes on display in the ring.
Keith
QUOTE (Sweetness @ Dec 15 2009, 05:42 PM) *
If every other attribute is solid but not spectacular, and your fighter has that ONE thing in his arsenal that helps him stand out, then I'll go power.

With power you're never out of a fight, no matter how far behind you are. And it'll help you get on HBO, which means more $$ and hopefully an earlier, safer retirement to enjoy a better life.


You beat me to it as I was typing. I agree with this assesment about money.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (Fitz @ Dec 15 2009, 04:01 PM) *
Was Tyson taught how to punch with power? Or was he born with power? Does someone like Spinks have power, and it hasn't been brought out because he hasn't been trained properly?


actually fitz regarding tysons power he was born with a natural knockout punch... but i also have on film kevin rooney explaining on hbo before one of his championship fights how tyson was taught to snap his shoulders when punching and it showed tyson demonstrating this technique etc to show where the extra power was coming from... i want to say it was one of cus d amatos formulas for making fighters punch harder or what not i would have to pull the tape... it supposedly made his punching power harder... i say this to say that a person can be born a natural puncher but also can be taught to throw those punches with better authority...
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (Spyder @ Dec 15 2009, 04:33 PM) *
Yeah, but neither example fighter is ideal.

Their decline...arguably due to a lack of stanima...is a testament to its fundamental importance.


Disagree.

Heart is a moral fiber born from social influences. That's why Chavez Sr has it, and Chavez jr does not.


some may not agree spyder but i think vitali klit has a ton of heart and those guys werent brought up (to my knoledge) in the slums of the ukraine, wasnt their father a high ranking military solider?... just because a person isnt brought up in the ghetto doesnt mean they wont have heart... jose luis lopez was a fighter that came up from my knoledge a pretty rich kid yet got up from some pretty big knockdowns to give bazooka quartey a damn good scare and if i remember correctly pulled a draw out of what would have been a loss by coming back to drop quartey who at the time was a beast and avoided welterweight... just saying if heart was such a fiber influenced by social influence we would constantly see fight of the year canidates, not fighters give half efforts... i would think heart born from social fiber would have driven tito ortiz to fight till the end vs madaina... just my opinion... i think it comes down to how hungry a fighter is for what he's fighting for.. i see where you are going with what you said but in my opinion social situations doesnt define how a fighter will react in the heat of battle...
Spyder
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Dec 15 2009, 07:04 PM) *
some may not agree spyder but i think vitali klit has a ton of heart and those guys werent brought up (to my knoledge) in the slums of the ukraine, wasnt their father a high ranking military solider?... just because a person isnt brought up in the ghetto doesnt mean they wont have heart... jose luis lopez was a fighter that came up from my knoledge a pretty rich kid yet got up from some pretty big knockdowns to give bazooka quartey a damn good scare and if i remember correctly pulled a draw out of what would have been a loss by coming back to drop quartey who at the time was a beast and avoided welterweight... just saying if heart was such a fiber influenced by social influence we would constantly see fight of the year canidates, not fighters give half efforts... i would think heart born from social fiber would have driven tito ortiz to fight till the end vs madaina... just my opinion... i think it comes down to how hungry a fighter is for what he's fighting for.. i see where you are going with what you said but in my opinion social situations doesnt define how a fighter will react in the heat of battle...

I wasn't saying that being rich or poor is the determining factor...shit, if it was that easy, these damn bums walking the streets wouldn't have given up on life as easily as they have.

Things that a person is subjected to shapes the person that they become. That's just Behavioral Psychology. Nothing fancy about it. But to expand on your example of the Klitchkos...I don't know much about their background. I don't know what their dad did, or if they were rich or poor. So what I'm about to type may not be true, but I'm gonna type it anyway to try and better explain my point.

Let's say the things that you said are true about them. Their Dad was a high ranking Soviet Officer. Well if my perception of the Soviets is close to reality, they were some pretty tough dudes. They didn't like excuses, and only wanted results. Now a military man...a high ranking one at that...would exemplify those characteristics to their fullest. Chances are good that growing up in that household was not an easy task. It is doubtful that the brothers...especially the oldest one...were given anything that they did not earn. I'm sure that being the older brother came with some difficult responsibilities. Responsibilities that, at their root level, would mold a man into what he is.

That was my point before. Not that being poor is a prerequisite to having heart, but that social influences shape your moral fiber to the man that you become.
kingknockout
QUOTE (KENSOFINE @ Dec 15 2009, 04:20 PM) *
Thats what I thought at first too, but I realized something...

Roy ruled for a hot minute without anyone even realizing he didnt have a good chin. Lennox Lewis did well without a chin, too.

I think, for me...stamina should be the priority...cuz you could defeat Mike Tyson, Zab, and a few others just bt lasting. Baldomir was proof of that against Zab.




Lennox lewis HAS a chin lol, you were right about roy though.
King Eugene
Roy Jones Speed and Athleticism
Haglers Chin
Mayweather's/James Toney's Defense
Tyson's ferociousness and Power
Hopkins Ring Smarts
Gatti's heart
Eddie Futch as my cornerman
ROLL DEEP
Woah, woah,

Where is the option for trunk colour? Pfffft.




Boxers are always 'born' with a certain trait that they don't have to work on as much.


Tyson was 'born' with KO power.

Jones was 'born' with speed.


Of course there are things that can help a fighter build on these attributes, but if they could be taught, then why doesn't every boxer have Tyson's power and Jones' speed? It's because some of their power or speed is an natural asset.



blackbelt2003
Power, most definitely.


A knockout punch will get you through the novice levels even if your fundamentals are only average. A knockout punch will get you TV exposure whilst better fighters get left on the untelevised portion.

A knockout punch can win you a world title even if you don't have the skills to deserve one.





Black
Fitz
QUOTE (blackbelt2003 @ Dec 17 2009, 05:38 AM) *
A knockout punch will get you through the novice levels even if your fundamentals are only average. A knockout punch will get you TV exposure whilst better fighters get left on the untelevised portion.

A knockout punch can win you a world title even if you don't have the skills to deserve one.


That's exactly right. You just described Kelly Pavlik.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (Fitz @ Dec 15 2009, 08:18 PM) *
Ok I can see how heart is how you are brought up as a youngster, but power is something people are sometimes naturally gifted with. I won't believe that the reason someone like Tyson has power was because he wasn't taught how to play 'gentle' as a kid and Baldomir was taught how to play 'gentle'. I can see that example with heart, but you can't seriously believe that someone will generate knockout power if their parents taught them to play 'gentle' or not.




I can agree with that. But I was more arguing KENS point because he didn't include heart because it can't be taught in the gym. I was saying that chin and power is pretty much the same. When you enter the gym, you usually either have it or don't, though you can improve.



Yeah, I already said earlier that you can improve it with technique, but even you agree that Tyson would have had power without the technique as well, he just used it to gain the most out of it. I think fighters can be taught how to gain the most you can get out of your power, but generally from a starting point, you either have it or you don't.


agreed king fitz...
Warlord
QUOTE (RollsRoyce @ Dec 15 2009, 05:46 PM) *
Engine/work rate have nothing to do with stamina. That's why many fighters gas out. They have a high work rate/engine, but low stamina. Other fighters, like Bernard Hopkins, have great stamina, but rarely throw more than 30 punches a round.


Not sure what you're going on about here, but "Engine" has EVERYTHING to do with stamina. Stamina is the "gas" that makes your "engine" go, if we want to keep this dumb analogy going. Workrate is tied to that directly, because there ain't a dumb motherfucker alive that is gonna sit there and not throw punches, unless he's been paid not to.

Typically, the only time a fighter doesn't throw punches is when he's tired. Fighters with low stamina have poor cardio and a poor workrate. All things are connected, man.
Keith
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Thanks Fitz. I just learned something.
kidbazooka1
Tommy Hearns -power
JC Chavez -chin
Pacquaios-conditioning
Meldrick Taylors- speed
Chico Corrales-Heart
Whitakers-defense
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