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namor
Is Mayweather Making Mosley Wait?

Robert Jackson:

In 1999, when Floyd Jr was 130lb champion he called out 135lb champion Shane Mosley to fight him in what would've been a super fight, Mosley declined!! Fast forward to 2005 after the Henry Bruselles fight a WBC Eliminator to determine who would fight Arturo Gatti next, Floyd was asked by Larry Merchant who he would like to fight next, amongst the names Floyd recited were Kostya Tszyu, Oscar DeLaHoya and Shane Mosley. Once again no rersponse from Mosley or the others for that matter.

A year later following his 2nd victory over Fernando Vargas, Mosley was asked whether he would face Mayweather by HBO host Larry Merchant, Mosley's response he needed to get his teeth fixed and go on vacation.. This doesn't sound like Floyd Jr is ducking Mosley to me!! Now in 2010 we're on the cusp of a superfight between the 2 men scheduled for May 1, 2010 and Mayweather has yet to sign the contract; Mosley has already signed. Is this a case of Mayweather getting cold feet?? Many and I mean MANY will say yes!!

I'm going to look at it from a different perspective.

When Mosley was ON TOP he saw no need to fight Mayweather who was a notch or 2 below him at that time, Mosley had bigger fish to fry. Mosley now is in a different statusphere, recently divorced and closing in on the end of his pugilistic career, Mosley needs 2 or 3 BIG paydays to secure his future outside of the ring. Previous to the Mayweather fight landing in his lap Mosley was scheduled to face Andre Berto in a WBA/WBC unification bout, a bout that the Haitian earthquake put an end to. Before the Berto bout Mosley was in the running for a bout against Manny Pacquiao, where Mosley during an impromptu meeting with Freddie Roach at his Wildcard Gym conceded to ALL of Pacquiao's terms including a 60/40 purse split and a 140lb fight weight; Pacquiao chose to fight Miguel Cotto instead.

Mayweather's 'almost made' fight against Manny Pacquiao fell apart over a dispute regarding RANDOM drug testing and an acceptable cutoff day. To Mosley's credit he has AGREED to RANDOM testing up to and ON the day of the fight, Mayweather has agreed as well. The 60/40 purse split in Mayweather's favor, promotional and marketing arrangements, and a rematch clause has also been agreed upon by both fighters. So WHY hasn't Mayweather signed the fight contract??

Mayweather a psychologist by nature will make Mosley sweat, reminding him of the times 'when Mosley was on top' and REFUSED Mayweather's challenges. This move will also embolden Mosley's belief that Floyd is SCARED of him. The MANY critics that Mayweather has are also chanting the MANTRA, "Floyd NEVER wanted to fight Shane Mosley", he's afraid to lose is 0. The frenzy that Mayweather is causing by not signing right away is what he wants and in the final analysis will put "asses" in the seats. Don't believe for 1 minute that Mayweather won't sign, he will when he is good and ready. Mayweather is GUARANTEED $20M plus moneys on the PPV upside. Mayweather WOULD ALSO like more than anything do more than DOUBLE the PPV buys of the Pacquiao/Clottey fight, to gain the upper hand for a FALL fight against the P4P king!!
namor
QUOTE (Fitz @ Feb 3 2010, 05:57 PM) *
Just wondering if you can find many articles from about 1999-2002 that is criticising Mosley for ducking Mayweather?



I`m just a boxing fan not a miracle worker.I don`t even think such a article exist cause other fighters are held to a different standard then Floyd.
namor
QUOTE (Fitz @ Feb 3 2010, 06:15 PM) *
They exist right now, so why wouldn't they exist in 1999? After all, you would think Mayweather was a more likeable guy back then, so if he is held at a different standard, you would think the media would have been more kind to him back then.
Why don't you think they exist? Could it have anything to do that back then, Mosley was fighting guys like DLH, Forrest and Winky? Who were considered more dangerous fights?[/b]




Floyd Called out Mosley before he fought any of those guys.The first time Floyd called Mosley out,Mosley was`nt anywhere near getting a fight with any of those guys.
d843
THAT'S WHAT THA FUCK IM TALKN BOUT!COME ON MAY 1!SHANES GONNA GIVE $MAY A DAM THROUGH BACK ASS CUTN
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (Fitz @ Feb 3 2010, 11:29 PM) *
Margarito called Mayweather out in April of 2006. In June 2006 when Mosley was fighting Vargas, Mayweather was calling Mosley (despite Mosley saying it's his last fight for the year before Mayweather issued a challenge) out and then in November he ended up fighting Baldomir. So Margarito called Mayweather out before his challenge to Mosley or Baldomir. So using your exact logic, you think he ducked Margarito. Thanks, that was easy work.



LOL Fitz strikes again.

QUOTE (d843 @ Feb 3 2010, 11:55 PM) *
SHANES GONNA GIVE $MAY A DAM THROUGH BACK ASS CUTN


Back ass cuttin. LOL. Quality.
lloyd mayflower
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Feb 4 2010, 12:04 AM) *
LOL Fitz strikes again.


Yep, quality work. Im glad someone is here to take out the trash when it gets too full.

Defending the indefensible is often an area where one may find one becomes unstuck.
thehype
QUOTE (Fitz @ Feb 3 2010, 06:27 PM) *
Mosley never ducked Mayweather, he took on tougher fights and from when Mayweather called Mosley out, it took 7 years from the time he called him out to actually be in the same division as Mosley.


I really didn't read everything that's been said in this thread, but I did want to clarify that Mosley "took on tougher fights" because he didn't have any other choice. Mosley has NEVER been in a position where he can make millions by fighting anyone. After beating Oscar De La Hoya (the first time), there was absolutely NO ONE that he could fight and make the type of money (I believe it was less than $5 million at the time) that he made. Let's not forget that after the De La Hoya fight, Mosley also went on to face a string of "lesser" opponents in Antonio Diaz (TKO6), Shannon Taylor (TKO6) and Adrian Stone (KO3) before stepping up to try and unify against Vernon Forrest, who essentially ran him out of the welterweight division (well...I guess technically Shane was just chasing after another money fight against De La Hoya). But even after winning the second fight against De La Hoya at 154, there STILL wasn't anyone there that Mosley could make big money against. Just like now, he was begging for a big fight against the likes of Vargas or Trinidad, but at the time, Trinidad had retired after the Hopkins beatdown and Vargas was all but done due to his back problems. The ONLY person who was there with a decent name that Mosley could actually make, I don't know, maybe $3 million or so against was Winky Wright. Mosley never had the luxury of being paid $5-$10 million to fight guys like Carlos Baldomir (Floyd Mayweather), Yori Boy Campas (Oscar De La Hoya) or David Diaz (Manny Pacquiao). For some reason, no matter what Mosley has done in his career, no matter how exciting his fights are, the networks/promoters just can't seem to make big money off of him, therefore, he didn't have any choice but to fight all those hard fights. Just like Winky Wright...he didn't have the luxury of having that nice contract that his boy Roy Jones Jr. had, so Winky had to fight whoever he could to make his money.

That's not to take anything away from Mosley as I truly believe that he's a throwback fighter and would fight anyone, any time and any place...HOWEVER...that being said, I do think Mosley, like Mayweather, De La Hoya AND Pacquiao, has made certain career decisions based on financial reasons. Does that mean he was "duckin and dodgin" certain fighters? Absolutely not. He was simply trying to maximize his profits by chasing after the big money makers (i.e. Oscar De La Hoya). Likewise, I don't think Floyd is "duckin and dodgin" anyone either...he simply chooses to make the most amount of money as easily as possible. I can't say I blame him either...I think just about anyone, no matter what profession they're in, would like to make money as easy as possible. I mean, people will label Floyd a coward because he "ducked" Margarito, but hey, if that's the case, then we can say the same about A LOT of fighters who chose not to fight certain fighters who weren't as financially rewarding. De La Hoya chose to fight the likes of Arturo Gatti and Javier Castillejo instead of facing Vernon Forrest or Winky Wright...Hopkins chose to fight Roy Jones Jr. instead of Chad Dawson...Pacquiao chose to fight David Diaz instead of Nate Campbell...I mean, the list goes on, but I don't think any of those fighters were actually "afraid" to face any of those fighters. As a fighter, at least most that I know, you just have this certain arrogance about you that no one can beat you...even if you just got your ass kicked, you find a way to rationalize it. I just don't think guys are shaking in their boots and ducking other fighters. Their simply aren't any fighters that are THAT scary. I mean, even Pacquiao, as good as he's been looking and as many guys as he's wrecked, there's still fighters waiting in line for a shot at him. I think the last fighter that anyone was truly afraid to step in the ring with was Mike Tyson...and even then, not too many guys were "ducking" him. Maybe it's because they knew it would earn them their biggest payday, but regardless, I just don't think very many fighters are afraid to face anyone. If it DOES happen or if a fight DOESN'T happen, it's usually because of money...simple as that.

While I admire Shane for his willing to fight anyone, let's not go overboard and make it sound like it's been his mission in throughout his career to fight best fighters each and every time. Usually when he did take on "tougher" fights, it was because he didn't have any other choice. If he DID have a choice, however, something tells me that Shane too would have gladly fought Juan Manuel Marquez if he was guaranteed a minimum of $10 million. Hell, he's got to be scratching his head wondering why his own promotional company served Juan Manuel Marquez to Floyd Mayweather instead of him. Or hell, why did they server up Ricky Hatton to Manny Pacquiao instead of Mosley? It's crazy.

But I digress....just basically wanted to say that, hey, I like Shane Mosley too, but honestly, Shane could have fought Floyd a lot sooner if he really, really, REALLY wanted to. That's not to say he was "ducking" him...it's just that, financially, fighting Floyd way back then wasn't going to be quite as rewarding as it now that Floyd commands RIDICULOUS money. Back then, Shane probably wouldn't have even made $1 million to fight Floyd, so I can't blame him for chasing after that De La Hoya money. Technically, Shane probably could have fought Floyd just a few years ago when that whole "tooth ache" incident happened. If you remember, at the time, it wasn't a lock that Oscar was going to fight Floyd and for a brief period of time, there were actually some discussions about Shane and Floyd fighting, however, Oscar swooped in and put a squash to that when he decided to fight Floyd, so Floyd basically did to Shane what Shane did to him so many years ago...he went chasing after that Oscar money. It's crazy how that shit works...the timing, the money, all that has to be taken into consideration. Once a fighter reaches a certain level, the sport of boxing becomes the business of boxing...it's just some fighters never reach that level of financial reward, therefore, their business choices are limited.

Okay...long rant, but I was bored. LOL.

Also for the record, it says here that if Shane would have fought Berto, that likely would have been another "tough" fight that he was in and he would have been paid peanuts for it...PEANUTS! Could you imagine Floyd Mayweather or Manny Pacquiao be willing to fight Andre Berto for $3 million? LOL. The thought is comical and yet sad at the same time. Like I said, Mosley didn't want to fight Berto at all...he said it time and time again...however, he simply didn't have any choice in the matter.
Provo209
QUOTE (Fitz @ Feb 3 2010, 05:30 PM) *
It was easy work. He posted, he replied to me quick. By the end of the last post, he has been lurking in the thread and forum, but nothing to post. I can picture him looking at the blank text field just staring at it for a few minutes and then closing and hoping he has something to write later laugh.gif


LOL! Damn it Fitz! LOL.
Provo209
Great Post HYPE!
I see your point and its true guys do take the money fights you can't blame them,shit I would to LOL.

And yeah aint no one in boxing who is scary. Mike Tyson ,Now fukers were scared of him lol..
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (thehype @ Feb 3 2010, 09:43 PM) *
I really didn't read everything that's been said in this thread, but I did want to clarify that Mosley "took on tougher fights" because he didn't have any other choice. Mosley has NEVER been in a position where he can make millions by fighting anyone. After beating Oscar De La Hoya (the first time), there was absolutely NO ONE that he could fight and make the type of money (I believe it was less than $5 million at the time) that he made. Let's not forget that after the De La Hoya fight, Mosley also went on to face a string of "lesser" opponents in Antonio Diaz (TKO6), Shannon Taylor (TKO6) and Adrian Stone (KO3) before stepping up to try and unify against Vernon Forrest, who essentially ran him out of the welterweight division (well...I guess technically Shane was just chasing after another money fight against De La Hoya). But even after winning the second fight against De La Hoya at 154, there STILL wasn't anyone there that Mosley could make big money against. Just like now, he was begging for a big fight against the likes of Vargas or Trinidad, but at the time, Trinidad had retired after the Hopkins beatdown and Vargas was all but done due to his back problems. The ONLY person who was there with a decent name that Mosley could actually make, I don't know, maybe $3 million or so against was Winky Wright. Mosley never had the luxury of being paid $5-$10 million to fight guys like Carlos Baldomir (Floyd Mayweather), Yori Boy Campas (Oscar De La Hoya) or David Diaz (Manny Pacquiao). For some reason, no matter what Mosley has done in his career, no matter how exciting his fights are, the networks/promoters just can't seem to make big money off of him, therefore, he didn't have any choice but to fight all those hard fights. Just like Winky Wright...he didn't have the luxury of having that nice contract that his boy Roy Jones Jr. had, so Winky had to fight whoever he could to make his money.

That's not to take anything away from Mosley as I truly believe that he's a throwback fighter and would fight anyone, any time and any place...HOWEVER...that being said, I do think Mosley, like Mayweather, De La Hoya AND Pacquiao, has made certain career decisions based on financial reasons. Does that mean he was "duckin and dodgin" certain fighters? Absolutely not. He was simply trying to maximize his profits by chasing after the big money makers (i.e. Oscar De La Hoya). Likewise, I don't think Floyd is "duckin and dodgin" anyone either...he simply chooses to make the most amount of money as easily as possible. I can't say I blame him either...I think just about anyone, no matter what profession they're in, would like to make money as easy as possible. I mean, people will label Floyd a coward because he "ducked" Margarito, but hey, if that's the case, then we can say the same about A LOT of fighters who chose not to fight certain fighters who weren't as financially rewarding. De La Hoya chose to fight the likes of Arturo Gatti and Javier Castillejo instead of facing Vernon Forrest or Winky Wright...Hopkins chose to fight Roy Jones Jr. instead of Chad Dawson...Pacquiao chose to fight David Diaz instead of Nate Campbell...I mean, the list goes on, but I don't think any of those fighters were actually "afraid" to face any of those fighters. As a fighter, at least most that I know, you just have this certain arrogance about you that no one can beat you...even if you just got your ass kicked, you find a way to rationalize it. I just don't think guys are shaking in their boots and ducking other fighters. Their simply aren't any fighters that are THAT scary. I mean, even Pacquiao, as good as he's been looking and as many guys as he's wrecked, there's still fighters waiting in line for a shot at him. I think the last fighter that anyone was truly afraid to step in the ring with was Mike Tyson...and even then, not too many guys were "ducking" him. Maybe it's because they knew it would earn them their biggest payday, but regardless, I just don't think very many fighters are afraid to face anyone. If it DOES happen or if a fight DOESN'T happen, it's usually because of money...simple as that.

While I admire Shane for his willing to fight anyone, let's not go overboard and make it sound like it's been his mission in throughout his career to fight best fighters each and every time. Usually when he did take on "tougher" fights, it was because he didn't have any other choice. If he DID have a choice, however, something tells me that Shane too would have gladly fought Juan Manuel Marquez if he was guaranteed a minimum of $10 million. Hell, he's got to be scratching his head wondering why his own promotional company served Juan Manuel Marquez to Floyd Mayweather instead of him. Or hell, why did they server up Ricky Hatton to Manny Pacquiao instead of Mosley? It's crazy.

But I digress....just basically wanted to say that, hey, I like Shane Mosley too, but honestly, Shane could have fought Floyd a lot sooner if he really, really, REALLY wanted to. That's not to say he was "ducking" him...it's just that, financially, fighting Floyd way back then wasn't going to be quite as rewarding as it now that Floyd commands RIDICULOUS money. Back then, Shane probably wouldn't have even made $1 million to fight Floyd, so I can't blame him for chasing after that De La Hoya money. Technically, Shane probably could have fought Floyd just a few years ago when that whole "tooth ache" incident happened. If you remember, at the time, it wasn't a lock that Oscar was going to fight Floyd and for a brief period of time, there were actually some discussions about Shane and Floyd fighting, however, Oscar swooped in and put a squash to that when he decided to fight Floyd, so Floyd basically did to Shane what Shane did to him so many years ago...he went chasing after that Oscar money. It's crazy how that shit works...the timing, the money, all that has to be taken into consideration. Once a fighter reaches a certain level, the sport of boxing becomes the business of boxing...it's just some fighters never reach that level of financial reward, therefore, their business choices are limited.

Okay...long rant, but I was bored. LOL.

Also for the record, it says here that if Shane would have fought Berto, that likely would have been another "tough" fight that he was in and he would have been paid peanuts for it...PEANUTS! Could you imagine Floyd Mayweather or Manny Pacquiao be willing to fight Andre Berto for $3 million? LOL. The thought is comical and yet sad at the same time. Like I said, Mosley didn't want to fight Berto at all...he said it time and time again...however, he simply didn't have any choice in the matter.



great post...
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
The only thing I'd add about Hype's post is didn't Mosley turn down way more money for Fishnets Part 3 to fight Winky instead? I could be worng about that but I thought he did.
namor
QUOTE (Fitz @ Feb 3 2010, 06:29 PM) *
Margarito called Mayweather out in April of 2006. In June 2006 when Mosley was fighting Vargas, Mayweather was calling Mosley (despite Mosley saying it's his last fight for the year before Mayweather issued a challenge) out and then in November he ended up fighting Baldomir. So Margarito called Mayweather out before his challenge to Mosley or Baldomir. So using your exact logic, you think he ducked Margarito. Thanks, that was easy work.




And Floyd fought the number 1 fighter at Welterweight who had a win over Zab Judah and was undisputed champ. And Margarito had a paper title with no big wins.And Floyd told bob Arum he Would fight Margarito for 8 million dollars if Floyd Gave him a guarantee of 10 million to fight Cotto and 20 million to fight Delahoya.Bob Arum turned it down and Arum did not want to deal with Delahoya so Floyd bought out his contract with Arum so Floyd can get a fight with Delahoya.Just because a fight did not happen ,it does`nt mean Floyd ducked the guy.And Floyd gave Margarito the Chance to fight him After Zab lost to Baldomir in Which Floyd had a deal for a fight with Zab before that.But Margarito did not want to pull out his fight with Shot gun Gomez so Floyd decided to go for Zab.Margarito could have gave shot gun Gomez step aside money and promise to fight him after that and put in contract.Shotgun Gomez was a nobody.
namor
QUOTE (Fitz @ Feb 3 2010, 11:27 PM) *
You should have, because you wrote a whole lot about points I was never arguing about, lol. I never stated that Mosley was a marquee fighter or anything. All I said was that back in 1999 and so on. You didn't get a whole heap of articles suggesting that Mosley ducked Mayweather, though they seem to be popping up close to a decade later. Why is that? Because at the time when Mosley was fighting guys like DLH, Wright or Forrest, you didn't get people saying how he should fight the tougher Mayweather instead and he is ducking him.
I just find it weird how after all these years posting and reading on boxing, how you never heard a thing about it back then in 1999, though somehow a decade later history seems to have changed and now we are getting brand new articles on something that apparently happened a decade ago.
Like I said earlier, it's like Foreman calling out Ward right now and Ward instead goes on to fight Lucian Bute. You probably wouldn't get too many articles right now at this time saying how Ward ducked Foreman, but lets say 6 years down the track Foreman becomes a top p4p fighter. Now because of the shift in momentum, are we going to get articles in 2016 saying how Ward ducked Foreman in 2010?
That was my whole point. If Mosley wasn't crucified about not fighting Mayweather back in 1999, chances are he didn't duck him.



Floyd became a big name after he beat Arturo Gatti in 2005.After Shane beat Fernando Vargas the first or second time Shane could have fought Floyd and it would have been a big money fight and Shane still did not want it.
namor
QUOTE (Fitz @ Feb 3 2010, 08:30 PM) *
It was easy work. He posted, he replied to me quick. By the end of the last post, he has been lurking in the thread and forum, but nothing to post. I can picture him looking at the blank text field just staring at it for a few minutes and then closing and hoping he has something to write later laugh.gif



Actually i was lurking in other forums on other websites and i went to visit other websites and left this page open.I wasn`t avoiding your reply.I seen your other replies after i came back to this forum. And after seeing your replies i replied to you.
namor

And Mosley went to on to fight the number 1 fighter at 147 in DLH, what's your point?


My point is Baldomir was more deserving of a fight then Margarito Cause Margarito did not have any big wins and was not the man to beat at that wait .Baldomir was cause he was the undiispted champ with a win over Zab Judah.



Shane said BEFORE the challenge he was taking the year off. He had fought 2 fights already that year, then Floyd challenged him. Mosley said he can't do it November of 2006 but would do it January or February of 2007. Mayweather said no.



It was`nt Mayweather that said no,it was Oscar that said no cause Oscar was Afraid that Mosley could potenetially ruin a big Money fight with him and Floyd.And Mosley could have fought Floyd After he beat Oscar Delahoya the first and second time,After he beat Vargas the first time he could have fought Floyd and told Vargas i`ll give you a rematch next year.Shane had plenty of time to fight the smaller Floyd.After he fought Delahoya the first time Shane went on to fight three bums.He could have fought 2 bums instead and fought Floyd.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (namor @ Feb 4 2010, 05:07 AM) *
After he fought Delahoya the first time Shane went on to fight three bums.He could have fought 2 bums instead and fought Floyd.


What had Floyd done then to deserve a shot at the welterweight champion? He held a belt 4 divisions lower than Shane & that is it. He had shown that he was no better draw than Shannan Taylor (actually Taylor would sell more tickets than FLoyd at that time). A waste of time.
lloyd mayflower
The Floyd huggers have now found a way to shit on Mosley.

Apply your bumchums own fucking logic. Mosley aint a draw, Mosley got 5 losses. You should all be slating Floyd for taking this fight. Im sure most of you could find a more lucrative easy fight for Floyd since most of his fans have such an interest in his bank balance.
d843
DAM HYPE.DON't HURT EM LIKE LIK THAT!TIGHT POST!
torvix2000
LOL!

Simple explanation: Mosley didn't duck a lot of fighters people want him fight. Gayweather did.
neophyte7
yaaaaaaawwwwwwnnnnnn..... you motherfuckers are so repetitive... bottom line. I saw Shane on TV studder when Floyd was mentioned around the toothache story... Shane balked on Floyd and Floyd had been calling out DLH and Shane back when he was headed to 140. PBF could not get any real money before Gatti. Arturo Gatti was fighting Jesse James Leija types and getting more money than Floyd who was leaps and bound above him. Without the Gatti fight, Mayweather would not have been thrust into the limelight. So in essence fighting Floyd prior to the last few years was high risk low reward which is why Shane did not go near him in my view...
lloyd mayflower
QUOTE (neophyte7 @ Feb 4 2010, 11:58 AM) *
yaaaaaaawwwwwwnnnnnn..... you motherfuckers are so repetitive... bottom line. I saw Shane on TV studder when Floyd was mentioned around the toothache story... Shane balked on Floyd and Floyd had been calling out DLH and Shane back when he was headed to 140. PBF could not get any real money before Gatti. Arturo Gatti was fighting Jesse James Leija types and getting more money than Floyd who was leaps and bound above him. Without the Gatti fight, Mayweather would not have been thrust into the limelight. So in essence fighting Floyd prior to the last few years was high risk low reward which is why Shane did not go near him in my view...


And talk me through what possible right a Floyd "If it makes $$$ it makes sense" Mayweather fan has to bitch about that? Thats Floyd 101.
jlupi
My point is Baldomir was more deserving of a fight then Margarito >>>>

well that depends how you look at it. Baldomir was not a bigger fight than marg, did not have a bigger fan base, and NOBODY thaught it was a tougher fight. But it was for a major title. Now are titles important to floyd? depends on how the wind blows that day.
jlupi
I think everyone is aware that the whole risk/reward thing does and should enter into a fighters decisions. however some take it more to an extreme than others.

to paraphrase hopkins from years ago "do i think jones is afraid of me, nah. He thinks he can beat god. but he would rather not get a bloody nose
Big Slim Sweet
QUOTE (thehype @ Feb 3 2010, 10:43 PM) *
Once a fighter reaches a certain level, the sport of boxing becomes the business of boxing.


Excellent post Hype. Just wanted to highlight this one line that really pretty much says it all.

Also, wanted to add, regarding the part about not since a young Mike Tyson have fighters literally been AFRAID to get in the ring with a man, I'd say that with Shane Mosley during his 135 reign, and Roy Jones during his 168-175 reign, you saw fighters who weren't necessarily afraid of them, but who stepped into the ring in awe of them, and believing they had absolutely no chance to even remotely compete.
Big Slim Sweet
QUOTE (the ollie reed fan club @ Feb 3 2010, 11:28 PM) *
The only thing I'd add about Hype's post is didn't Mosley turn down way more money for Fishnets Part 3 to fight Winky instead? I could be worng about that but I thought he did.

Sure did. Mosley was offered $10 million for a third fight with Oscar but demanded parity based on his 2-0 record against him. When Oscar refused Shane opted to face Winky Wright instead for I believe $4 million.

Not smart.

Big Slim Sweet
QUOTE (namor @ Feb 3 2010, 11:33 PM) *
Floyd became a big name after he beat Arturo Gatti in 2005.After Shane beat Fernando Vargas the first or second time Shane could have fought Floyd and it would have been a big money fight and Shane still did not want it.


This one's been talked to death due to this being the one time Floyd openly called out Shane but Shane did say before the Vargas rematch he was taking the rest of the year off either way to spend time with his family. Considering his marriage at the time was clearly in trouble I believe this is very legitimate excuse.

Also, I also feel Shane knew as a GBP partner that the boss had designs on a May 2007 fight with PBF which precluded him from fighting him before that.


QUOTE (namor @ Feb 4 2010, 12:07 AM) *
After he fought Delahoya the first time Shane went on to fight three bums.He could have fought 2 bums instead and fought Floyd.


Floyd was the 130 pound champ in 2000. He hadn't even fought Chico yet. Shane was the 147 champ. There was zero talk or interest in a fight with Mayweather at that time.
neophyte7
[QUOTE (thehype @ Feb 3 2010, 10:43 PM)
Once a fighter reaches a certain level, the sport of boxing becomes the business of boxing.


With that Logic... PBF should never be criticized for being a business man especially since the guy became champ at 19 years and has paid his dues. All of Pacs recent success came against people who had already tasted defeat or washed up... hatton TKO by PBF, DLH weighed drained past prime PBF beat him already, Cotto had has head beaten in,... who in his career has PAC destroyed that was untouchable or thought to be when he faced him. Now he is facing another guy that has already tasted recent defeat??? At the time PBF stopped Hatton, Hatton was undefeated. Beating an undefeated fighter riding with confidence holds more weight than beating a guy that was KOd or beaten decisively prior by someone else in my view. PBF chopped down guys like Angel Manfredy, Chico Corrales (much bigger opponent) Genarro Hernandez, while they were at the top of their games. PBF holds two victories over a primed Jose Luis Castillo (back to back). After his close call with castillo, PBF in the post interviews immediately grants him a rematch. My point is that PAC's career is not better than PBF's when looking at the overall picture. Pac is being praised for beating bigger guys, yet he is beating guys with chinks in their armor. Has Pac beaten someone on the line of say Corrales, who was a juggernaut crushing all opposition when he faced him??? The challenge to Mosely is a bigger than any PAC has ever had or taken... To be honest Chico Corrales and Jose Luis Castillo is tougher than anything on Pacs overhyped resume...
Big Slim Sweet
QUOTE (neophyte7 @ Feb 4 2010, 07:16 PM) *
With that Logic... PBF should never be criticized for being a business man especially since the guy became champ at 19 years and has paid his dues.

So then, neither should Pacquaio, right?


QUOTE (neophyte7 @ Feb 4 2010, 07:16 PM) *
who in his career has PAC destroyed that was untouchable or thought to be when he faced him.

His first win over Barrera fits this I think. Barrera had been beaten years before, but was on a rampage, top 5 p4p, with recent wins over Hamed and Morales.


QUOTE (neophyte7 @ Feb 4 2010, 07:16 PM) *
At the time PBF stopped Hatton, Hatton was undefeated. Beating an undefeated fighter riding with confidence holds more weight than beating a guy that was KOd or beaten decisively prior by someone else in my view.

You need to factor in the way Pac beat Hatton though as well. He slaughtered him and knocked him out cold in 5 minutes. Whether or not you think PBF beating Hatton first carries more weight, the way Pac blew Hatton out was damn impressive.


QUOTE (neophyte7 @ Feb 4 2010, 07:16 PM) *
My point is that PAC's career is not better than PBF's when looking at the overall picture. Pac is being praised for beating bigger guys, yet he is beating guys with chinks in their armor. Has Pac beaten someone on the line of say Corrales, who was a juggernaut crushing all opposition when he faced him??? The challenge to Mosely is a bigger than any PAC has ever had or taken.

As of now, I disagree with you. The Mosley fight could change that though, depending on how PBF performs.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (neophyte7 @ Feb 5 2010, 12:16 AM) *
All of Pacs recent success came against people who had already tasted defeat or washed up... hatton TKO by PBF, DLH weighed drained past prime PBF beat him already


DLH was a skeleton at 147 right?

QUOTE (neophyte7 @ Feb 5 2010, 12:16 AM) *
PBF chopped down guys like Angel Manfredy, Chico Corrales (much bigger opponent)


Corrales was not weight drained though?


King Eugene
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Feb 4 2010, 08:25 PM) *
Corrales was not weight drained though?

Hmmm I dont know about that. He hydrated back up 16 pounds. He looked fine to me.
neophyte7
Corrales no... that weight in looking at his career was his best weight. PBF blew him out ... PAC has never vanquished such a fighter -- his KO over Hatton is overrarted... Hatton always leads with his chin. Hatton felt Pac was small and he would walk threw him and he walked right into a KO punch. Pac does get credit for his destruction of barrera and morales.
Mean Mister Mustard
QUOTE (neophyte7 @ Feb 5 2010, 12:20 AM) *
Corrales no... that weight in looking at his career was his best weight. PBF blew him out ... PAC has never vanquished such a fighter -- his KO over Hatton is overrarted... Hatton always leads with his chin. Hatton felt Pac was small and he would walk threw him and he walked right into a KO punch. Pac does get credit for his destruction of barrera and morales.


And yet it took Mayweather 10 rounds to finish the job.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
So Neophyte based on your logic that Pac has only beaten fighters that already have losses to their names I'm sure you will give Floyd NO credit for beating Mosley as Shane already has FIVE losses on his record?
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (King Eugene @ Feb 5 2010, 06:20 AM) *
Hmmm I dont know about that. He hydrated back up 16 pounds. He looked fine to me.


BUt how much did he lose making 130? Did he ever fight at 130 again after that? Just because you make weight & hydrate does not mean you are fine. Floyd always would hav ebeaten him but IMO Corrales was far from fine.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (Mean Mister Mustard @ Feb 5 2010, 06:30 AM) *
And yet it took Mayweather 10 rounds to finish the job.


Duh. Mayweather has brittle hands so he only hit him with 10% of his power & still knocked him out. Now I don't know how good you are at math so I will keep it basic.

Floyd took 10 rounds to beat Hatton with 10% power.

Pac took 2 rounds to beat Hatton with 100% power.

Using the power of maths that makes Floyds win twice as good as Pacs because if he hit Hatton with 100% power like Pac did he would have won in one round. Maths is your friend so use it.
King Eugene
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Feb 5 2010, 05:32 AM) *
BUt how much did he lose making 130? Did he ever fight at 130 again after that? Just because you make weight & hydrate does not mean you are fine. Floyd always would hav ebeaten him but IMO Corrales was far from fine.

He hadn't long ago left the decision. Its not like he was struggling to make weight. His fight before that against Angel Manfredy he came in at 129. He didn't move up til after the Mayweather fight. Like I said he was just fine. Mayweather just looked better!
thehype
QUOTE (Fitz @ Feb 3 2010, 11:27 PM) *
You should have, because you wrote a whole lot about points I was never arguing about, lol. I never stated that Mosley was a marquee fighter or anything. All I said was that back in 1999 and so on. You didn't get a whole heap of articles suggesting that Mosley ducked Mayweather, though they seem to be popping up close to a decade later. Why is that?


I should have? For what? The only thing I wanted to address was your comment about Mosley taking on "tougher" challenges instead of facing Mayweather...and I addressed. My point had nothing to do with who's a bigger marquee name or anything like that...I was simply pointing out that "back in 1999", Shane Mosley was basically in the same position that Floyd Mayweather was in back in 2006. In '99, Mayweather was calling him out when Mosley was still a lightweight, however he decided to chase after the money fight with De La Hoya, so instead of "giving Mayweather a shot," he jumped up from 135 to 147 and fought Wilfredo Rivera and Willy Wise before stepping in the ring with Oscar. At the time, Shane was the big name on the rise, so instead of fighting Mayweather for peanuts, he stayed focused on the big money fight that was just around the corner for him. Fast forward to 2006, and the shoe is on the other fight. Fresh off of his victory over Vargas, Shane could have had the fight with Mayweather back then if he would have just said, "Hell yeah I want Mayweather next," instead of saying, "Um, I have a toothace. I'm going on vacation." By the time he finally did come around to wanting the fight, it was too late as Mayweather, like Mosley before him, was focused on his shot at a big money fight, so instead of fighting Mosley or Margarito for peanuts, Floyd got his shot at Oscar. I'm just saying, in Mosley's case, back in 1999, fresh off his scintillating victory over John Brown, he was given credit for deciding not to fight Mayweather to instead move up to fight 147 to fight Wilfredo Rivera, Willy Wise and then De La Hoya...and you're right, very few people accused him of "duckin" Mayweather. In Mayweather case, however, fresh off his victory over Zab Judah, the guy got crucified by the media for essentially doing the same thing. Instead of fighting Margarito, he chose to fight Baldomir right before he fought De La Hoya. Because of that decision, a lot of people accused him of "duckin" Margarito, even though it was common knowledge that a fight with De La Hoya was right around the corner. Mosley's decision, however, was never questioned and he was never accused of "duckin" Mayweather. Just as easily as Floyd could have fought Margarito instead of Baldomir in 2006, Mosley could have fought Floyd instead of Wilfredo Rivera or Willy Wise back in 1999. Again, I'm not saying that either guy was ducking anyone because I definitely don't think that was the case. In my opinion, it was essentially the same scenario, and yet, Mosley never received the same type of scrutiny (just like Bernard Hopkins never got criticized for fighting smaller opponents like Felix Trinidad, Oscar De La Hoya, Winky Wright, Joe Calzaghe and Kelly Pavlik). It's funny how that works. But the point is, that's all I was really addressing as far your post is concerned. Anything else I may have talked about had nothing to do with you or your post, so all of the points that I was arguing that you never addressed...well...quite frankly, they really weren't meant for you to begin with. LOL.

Why weren't there any articles suggesting that Mosley ducked Mayweather? Well, first and foremost, there really weren't a ton of boxing websites back then, so there really weren't that many "writers" to begin with. It was still primarily print media that was covering boxing, so articles on boxing in general were hard to come by unless it was published in a newspaper or a magazine. Today, there's a shit load of boxing webiste, blogs, etc. and every Brad, Dennis and Joe thinks that they're a Pullitzer Prize winning author and feels the urge to voice their opinion. Simply put, there's a lot more unimportant people writing about boxing today and it's a lot easier to get your opinion "published". Second, the majority of the media actually likes Mosley...they do today and they definitely did back then. When the media likes you, they're generally not going to shit on you. Floyd doesn't have the luxury, so he gets scrutinized for just about any little thing he does. A perfect example is earlier this week, when a bunch of media folks, like Dan Rafael, wrote an article on the fact that Mayweather had yet to sign his bout agreement even though Shane had signed his a few days earlier. I mean, honestly, who fucking cares? For all they knew, it could have just taken Floyd and his team that long to comb over every detail in the contract. You had Richard Schaefer and Judd Burstein using their media contacts to bitch and fuss over nothing...and because some of those media guys don't like Floyd, they took it and ran with it...and I'm not talking about the media guys like Dan Rafael, Lem Satterfield or Kevin Iole...I'm talking about all the guys you hardly know, like Rick Rockwell, France Martel, Scott Heritage, Marv Dumon, Anthony Fenech, Kevin Riley, Lorne Scoggins, etc. I mean, that's not a knock on any of those guys, but I'm just saying, there's a lot more people now than there were back then, so it's a lot easier to dig up all kinds of crazy articles today about Mayweather "duckin" this person or "dodgin" that person.
torvix2000
QUOTE (thehype @ Feb 5 2010, 03:56 PM) *
When the media likes you, they're generally not going to shit on you. Floyd doesn't have the luxury, so he gets scrutinized for just about any little thing he does.


Why is that? Why is it that media likes Mosley and on the other hand shits on Floyd?

Maybe Fitz was kinda thinking that tougher challenges for Floyd should be twice as tough as the so called tougher challenges for Mosley? Or not? Should perceived tougher challenges for Floyd be only as tough as perceived tougher challenges for Mosley?
jlupi
Im unsure what you sayin biggrin.gif

Floyd seemed to be avoiding risky fights since he really lost in castillo #1. For a guy that calls himself the greatest it would have been nice if he seemed to be seeking out challenges. Maybe thats changing I hope so because his biggest paydays now are some of his toughest fights.

yeah if he can beat mosley they will say he was old and if he beats pac they will say he was small. Thats OK because its true, they are still tests. It is rare that we see 2 fighters at there best where we dont need to keep the acomplishments in perspective.

lets face it whether we are talking pac or mayweather -Corrales, castillo, an aging inactive delahoya, cotto, margarito barrera, hernandez are all good fighters some even verry good but none are ATG in my book. they need to fight as many of the stiffest challenges that they can if they want to be an ATG. hopefully they fight each other because although there are fighters that may match up with them well pac and MW are the only names that either have to put on each others resume that has ATG potential.
thehype
QUOTE (torvix2000 @ Feb 5 2010, 11:16 AM) *
Why is that? Why is it that media likes Mosley and on the other hand shits on Floyd?


I think that just kind of depends on the media people in question and the fighter you're talking about. For example, I know 3 particular writers, and I'm talking big names on the level of Dan Rafael, who absolutely refuse to give Winky Wright any ink at all because he snubbed them after the Taylor fight and chose to speak first to one lesser known writer than them. I know...it sounds immature and unprofessional, but people are people man and most writers can't help but to be biased even when they say they're not.

I think in Floyd's case, certain media members don't like him because now, he's extremely arrogant. Floyd wasn't always like that. Back in the day, prior to the Corrales fight, Floyd was actually pretty polite and humble, but after years of thinking that he's the best fighter in boxing...years of thinking that he, not De La Hoya, should be getting the big paydays...after letting that build up for so many years, Floyd turned into what he is now and certain individuals are irritated by that. Hell, even I'm annoyed with it to an extent, but for me, it's really not that big of a deal simply because I understand why he acts the way he does. I don't necessarily agree with it all, but I understand where it comes from. Mosley's not like that. He's simply a nice guy...always has been and always will...and fortunately for him, or unfortunately depending on how you look at it, he's never been in a position where he can sit back and call his own shots. If he was, however, there's a good chance that Mosley may not have fought a lot of guys that he did. For example, a lot of people say Mosley was foolish for turning down a $10 million offer to fight De La Hoya...but on the flip side, had he not, then he may not have ever fought Winky twice. If he did take that 3rd fight and ended up winning, then the Shane Mosley we all love today...the guy willing to take on every tough challenge...he may not have even existed. Not to mention, had he never got that first fight with De La Hoya, then he very well could have become extremely desparate, begging for fights and talking a lot of smack (like lately) which very well could have turned off some members of the media. It's just a very fine line that some fighters walk as far as their business career and their legacy in the sport is concerned. Floyd just so happens to be one of the few guys who said fuck it and let everybody know it's always about the money...period!

Honestly man, the REAL question is why did the media like De La Hoya so much during his fighting career and on the other hand shit on Floyd? I mean, if you think about, and I mean REALLY think about it, Floyd is basically emulating a lot of the same thing in his career that De La Hoya did. I really don't recall too many articles about Oscar ducking Kostya Tsyzu, Vernon Forrest or Winky Wright. LOL.
thehype
QUOTE (jlupi @ Feb 5 2010, 12:08 PM) *
Im unsure what you sayin biggrin.gif

Floyd seemed to be avoiding risky fights since he really lost in castillo #1. For a guy that calls himself the greatest it would have been nice if he seemed to be seeking out challenges.


Just out of curiosity, why are De La Hoya and Hatton considered risks and challenges for Pacquiao, but they're not considered risks and challenges for Floyd?

And please keep in mind, up until his fight with Zab Judah, Floyd Mayweather was still a Top Rank fighter and I don't recall Bob Arum being so eager to put Floyd in the ring with Cotto, Margarito or Clottey. In fact, Bob Arum is on record prior to the Judah fight flat out saying that Cotto was not going to be fighting Mayweather any time soon. Ricky Hatton also came on record to turn down a fight with Floyd when he was at 140...so if Floyd wasn't fighting Cotto or Hatton at 140, who else was there to fight at 140 other than a guy like Gatti? It wasn't until AFTER Floyd left Bob Arum that those guys became an option, but by that time, Floyd was already moving on to the De La Hoya fight at 154, which apparently wasn't that much of a risk. LOL.

I mean, was Floyd REALLY the one "avoiding" all of the risky fights...or was it that some of those guys or the people around them weren't willing to face Floyd?

Do your research...the truth is out there.

LOL.
D-MARV
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Feb 5 2010, 05:32 AM) *
BUt how much did he lose making 130? Did he ever fight at 130 again after that? Just because you make weight & hydrate does not mean you are fine. Floyd always would hav ebeaten him but IMO Corrales was far from fine.

Well... Actually he did fight at 130 after he lost to Floyd. He fought Casamayor twice and beat him once long after Floyd!


The whole weight drained theory of Mayweather-Corrales was a myth. That was a legit win.

Weight drained was Oscar Vs Pac or Duran Vs Leonard II.
D-MARV
QUOTE (jlupi @ Feb 5 2010, 12:08 PM) *
Im unsure what you sayin biggrin.gif

Floyd seemed to be avoiding risky fights since he really lost in castillo #1.

LMFAO... yeah he did... He "REALLY" lost to Castillo! Then he decided to take the less risky fight in fighting Castillo again...

Wait... rolleyes_anim.gif
jlupi
Floyd is basically emulating a lot of the same thing in his career that De La Hoya did. I really don't recall too many articles about Oscar ducking Kostya Tsyzu, Vernon Forrest or Winky Wright. LOL.
>>>>>

oscar took on some tough fights it took hm a while. I dont think I would say oscar ducked many. I dont think he was great in most of hit hard fight he was at best even.

Just out of curiosity, why are De La Hoya and Hatton considered risks and challenges for Pacquiao, but they're not considered risks and challenges for Floyd?>>>>

Pac gets a pass by some because he is smaller but both bouts were not against a prime oscar and both in my opinion were a test but also need to be put in perspective. Pac does get the same critisizm just maybe not as loud - delahoya was shot and weight drained, hatton was a joke, cotto was not the same fighter. It all has some truth to it.

I really don't recall too many articles about Oscar ducking Kostya Tsyzu, Vernon Forrest or Winky Wright. LOL.>>>>

Floyd didnt seem to be in a rush to fight tszyu either

did not Katz name him chicken delahoya going after smaller and older fighters? didnt he get blasted by refusing to give pea and quartey remaches in fights they may have won?

I personally will always hold it against arum and oscar after they tore into pea for being a boring fighter w no fans when they just had finished a huge fight in which pea made delahoya look like a amature at times


jlupi
LMFAO... yeah he did... He "REALLY" lost to Castillo! Then he decided to take the less risky fight in fighting Castillo again...

Wait...>>>>

you really dont think floyd took the path of least resistance after those fights? even in the delahoya fight which i give him credit for he faught scared
MarzB
I'm glad Hype is dropping these jewels because these have been said before but maybe now people will accept it. There's a couple points I want to add.

Today, there's a shit load of boxing webiste, blogs, etc. and every Brad, Dennis and Joe thinks that they're a Pullitzer Prize winning author and feels the urge to voice their opinion.


This is one of the biggest issues I have with how this medium is covered today. In other sports, they have the luxury of having "BEAT WRITERS" of sorts in addition to columnist who cover the sport generally so there's more of a "check and balance" that occurs. However in boxing you don't have this and anyone (generally speaking) that may have some access to the inside of the industry can SEEM like their an authority and offer up "THEIR" spin on things.

I'm more or less the type of individual "just tell the facts and I'll take out what I want from the piece". But these "hacks" (I wont' give them the credit in calling them writers) will not only distort the facts but will offer their spin on things in "bloggish" type fashion and thats whats bullschit. I'll offer an example that Hype used.

Floyd didn't sign the contract right? To me this was such a non issue that it wasn't worthy of discussion which is why I didn't even explore discussing it on here. I knew the Floyd dissenters would chew this up but. That said, I occasionally will go over to Michael Marley's site just to see what he's gonna say and boy did he swallow that whole. He not only had a headline but he had a picture of when FLOYD was crying after the Baldomir fight I believe to capture the headline.

Now I'm not defending Floyd or saying "poor Floyd" but I'm asking, WHAT THE FUCK DID THAT PICTURE HAVE TO DO WITH HIM NOT SIGNING THE CONTRACT UP TO THAT POINT?? Seriously? The photograph was placed there to make Floyd look "soft" or frankly, "like a bitch". And what often happens is because a lot of people don't want to look at things fair minded, they get influenced by these hacks and run with it, thus you have warped perception being created.

Sadly, I don't see this changing anytime soon as I don't see the boxing industry improving in its overall coverage.
D-MARV
QUOTE (jlupi @ Feb 5 2010, 01:09 PM) *
LMFAO... yeah he did... He "REALLY" lost to Castillo! Then he decided to take the less risky fight in fighting Castillo again...

Wait...>>>>

you really dont think floyd took the path of least resistance after those fights? even in the delahoya fight which i give him credit for he faught scared

What?
Floyd didn't fight scared in the Oscar fight... thats INSANE! Floyd sat in the pocket, leaned on the ropes and put on a boxing clinic. Don't give me that "Floyd fought scared" shit.

MarzB
QUOTE (StyleZ @ Feb 5 2010, 01:11 PM) *
What?
Floyd didn't fight scared in the Oscar fight... thats INSANE! Floyd sat in the pocket, leaned on the ropes and put on a boxing clinic. Don't give me that "Floyd fought scared" shit.


Exactly. One thing I love about that fight thats rarely pointed out is how frustrated Oscar when he was unable to hit Floyd. It's amazing to me a fighter as skilled as Oscar resorted to some of the tactics he did. For instance, I want to say it was between rounds 4 & 6 when he had Floyd on the ropes and he threw series of what were supposed to be body punches but they more resembled slaps and most of all, they were all blocked and Floyd is laughing at Oscar while he's desperately throwing things.

Even worse the crowd was cheering but none of them were even close to landing.
Snoop
Looking at Floyd's career collectively in retrospect doesn't reveal the most impressive record, but at the time each and every one of his recent fights were negotiated, I remember most posters being "okay" or at least empathetic as to why that decision was made. For me, it all boils down to which opponent you saw as more legitimate: Judah or Margarito.
Mean Mister Mustard
QUOTE (MarzB @ Feb 5 2010, 01:28 PM) *
Exactly. One thing I love about that fight thats rarely pointed out is how frustrated Oscar when he was unable to hit Floyd. It's amazing to me a fighter as skilled as Oscar resorted to some of the tactics he did. For instance, I want to say it was between rounds 4 & 6 when he had Floyd on the ropes and he threw series of what were supposed to be body punches but they more resembled slaps and most of all, they were all blocked and Floyd is laughing at Oscar while he's desperately throwing things.

Even worse the crowd was cheering but none of them were even close to landing.


LOL I remember that. I also remember the follow up argument when Steward, countering Lampley's joy over the "body attack", said that that little flurry might have taken more out of DLH than PBF. Then Merchant countered "Well at least he's trying". LOL. I will give DLH credit, he gave Mayweather a rough night, Mayweather didn't look all that comfortable until DLH tired around the 8th or 9th round. DLH should have stuck to boxing as opposed to trying to fight like Castillo. In order to fight like JLC you have to be a bodypuncher and DLH was never that.

I also agree about the Internet giving people the illusion that they can be writers. Too many biased fans disguised as writers prancing around the net. Also most boxing websites ask softball questions. THat's why I still read Ring Magazine, many complain that the news are old by the time it hits the newsstands but at least most of their writers are genrally knowledgable. That being said, they are not perfect.
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