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Fitz
You have a newbie who hasn't boxed before. Where do you start with him?

Obviously you try get him fitness and get him to learn to skip and that, but skill wise, I would begin with footwork. For me that is the base and one of the more important things, it's just like learning to walk. Once you get that right, it's easier to correct other things and work around it.
I remember when I started out, and the first time the trainer got me in a one on one situation in the ring to teach me basics. The first thing we done was move around the ring together, back and forth, side to side. Chasing each other. All of this was done with our hands down and not throwing anything.
I actually liked this and feel that once you start with something else, it's probably harder to correct footwork later because it's probably the most natural thing in boxing and is probably hard to break that habit later. Like I said, kind of like walking, you just tend to do it naturally.

Thoughts?
Romulus9
You're right. It all begins with footwork. Front shoulder pointed at the target. Don't square up. The basics.

I think one of the most important things is "boxing theory". Make your fighter go beyond the "what" and the "how", and truly get into the "why". Some don't do that. The best ones do. Once that happens, every instructional piece of the puzzle fits much, much better.

The use of video is huge too, even from the start. For balance and throwing great punches, show them Joe Louis. If they're big and rangy, show them the Larry Holmes jab, etc. Video sessions to review, point out what's right and wrong, too.

Like you said, this is all skill wise.

The fitness stuff is another beast altogether.
King Eugene
Fitness, footwork, and defense!
Snoop
QUOTE (Fitz @ Feb 16 2010, 11:41 PM) *
You have a newbie who hasn't boxed before. Where do you start with him?

Obviously you try get him fitness and get him to learn to skip and that, but skill wise, I would begin with footwork. For me that is the base and one of the more important things, it's just like learning to walk. Once you get that right, it's easier to correct other things and work around it.
I remember when I started out, and the first time the trainer got me in a one on one situation in the ring to teach me basics. The first thing we done was move around the ring together, back and forth, side to side. Chasing each other. All of this was done with our hands down and not throwing anything.
I actually liked this and feel that once you start with something else, it's probably harder to correct footwork later because it's probably the most natural thing in boxing and is probably hard to break that habit later. Like I said, kind of like walking, you just tend to do it naturally.

Thoughts?

Agreed 100%. Everytime I help out a first timer in shadowboxing, I end up just showing them how to move back and forth with their feet. When I try to put in the punches with that, it just confuses them. Instead, I just have em go 3 rounds of moving around, getting used to keeping their feet equal distance apart at all times.
HaydelHammer
I agree..I remember when I first learned the "boxers walk"

Fitz
I remember the first gym I went to, I saw a trainer pull in a new guy and put him on the pads and was getting him to throw combinations, lol. Fuck, you need to learn how to walk first and in boxings case, you need to learn how to move.
I also agree that watching fights is a big part. I remember Jermain Taylor admitting he doesn't really watch boxing and it makes sense, because just watching him, it's obvious he doesn't have a clue how the mechanics work. He just knows how to do it, but doesn't know why. But once you get footwork right, you are able to add everything else to it.
The other thing I notice sometimes in the gym is that trainers try to train all guys the same way. I know to an extent you teach them basic fundamentals, but you must work with their strengths. You are usually able to tell whether a guy is a natural boxer or fighter, his strengths and weaknesses. I think you should try train them to their strengths, but sometimes I see guys all being taught the same which I don't agree with.
Snoop
QUOTE (Fitz @ Feb 17 2010, 12:46 AM) *
I remember the first gym I went to, I saw a trainer pull in a new guy and put him on the pads and was getting him to throw combinations, lol. Fuck, you need to learn how to walk first and in boxings case, you need to learn how to move.
I also agree that watching fights is a big part. I remember Jermain Taylor admitting he doesn't really watch boxing and it makes sense, because just watching him, it's obvious he doesn't have a clue how the mechanics work. He just knows how to do it, but doesn't know why. But once you get footwork right, you are able to add everything else to it.
The other thing I notice sometimes in the gym is that trainers try to train all guys the same way. I know to an extent you teach them basic fundamentals, but you must work with their strengths. You are usually able to tell whether a guy is a natural boxer or fighter, his strengths and weaknesses. I think you should try train them to their strengths, but sometimes I see guys all being taught the same which I don't agree with.

Spot on. Gyms that throw you right are the pads are bad news. They're usually made to make people "feel cool", but that's exactly how you pick up bad habits.

I also agree with the fact that all boxers have their distinct style. Training a boxer as a puncher or vice versa, can be detrimental to their overall development.
Fitz
QUOTE (Snoop @ Feb 17 2010, 11:52 AM) *
I also agree with the fact that all boxers have their distinct style. Training a boxer as a puncher or vice versa, can be detrimental to their overall development.


What comes to mind with a modern trainer is what McGirt tried to do with Gatti and make him into a boxer. That is exactly what I don't like. Boxing isn't Gatti's strength. Sure Gatti isn't a great fighter regardless, but he is a better fighter than a boxer so he should have worked with Gatti's strengths and improve on them, not ignore his strengths and try make him fight in a way he isn't good at.
Douchebag
QUOTE (Fitz @ Feb 16 2010, 09:12 PM) *
What comes to mind with a modern trainer is what McGirt tried to do with Gatti and make him into a boxer. That is exactly what I don't like. Boxing isn't Gatti's strength. Sure Gatti isn't a great fighter regardless, but he is a better fighter than a boxer so he should have worked with Gatti's strengths and improve on them, not ignore his strengths and try make him fight in a way he isn't good at.



I get your point, but in all fairness when Gatti Boxed Ward he had a much easier time with him. That being said he should have never tried to box with Floyd.
SmartyBeardo
Jump-rope, sit-ups, push-ups, pull-ups, intervals, jogging, speed-bag. You will find out shortly if the kid really wants to do what it takes. Most will not. If he does, you can begin to work on balance, footwork, and head, glove and arm positioning/movement.
Fitz
QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ Feb 17 2010, 01:41 PM) *
Jump-rope, sit-ups, push-ups, pull-ups, intervals, jogging, speed-bag. You will find out shortly if the kid really wants to do what it takes. Most will not. If he does, you can begin to work on balance, footwork, and head, glove and arm positioning/movement.


Agreed. I said at the start that you obviously working on fitness first, but I am talking more from just a skill level just in terms of boxing.
Keith
I say you take that newbie... put some friggin wraps, gloves, and headgear on his ass and send him straight to the ring.

Find out if he's scared. Trial by fire.

Then after that first time, start to teach him that basic shit you all speak of.

SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (Keith @ Feb 16 2010, 09:48 PM) *
I say you take that newbie... put some friggin wraps, gloves, and headgear on his ass and send him straight to the ring.

Find out if he's scared. Trial by fire.

Then after that first time, start to teach him that basic shit you all speak of.

Not a bad point, Keith. See how he handles getting hit, what kind of fight is in him, how much natural ability he possesses.
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (Fitz @ Feb 16 2010, 09:46 PM) *
Agreed. I said at the start that you obviously working on fitness first, but I am talking more from just a skill level just in terms of boxing.

Yeah, I understand what you said, but I don't consider jump-rope and speed-bag as much about fitness as they are about rhythm and reflexes. In my opinion, every school throughout the world should require jump-rope, sit-ups, push-ups, pull-ups and speed-bag for males and females. I started my kids off young, at the same time I was developing good study habits in them. Self-defense followed naturally thereafter.
Fitz
QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ Feb 17 2010, 02:14 PM) *
Yeah, I understand what you said, but I don't consider jump-rope and speed-bag as much about fitness as they are about rhythm and reflexes. In my opinion, every school throughout the world should require jump-rope, sit-ups, push-ups, pull-ups and speed-bag for males and females. I started my kids off young, at the same time I was developing good study habits in them. Self-defense followed naturally thereafter.


I didn't mention speed bag, I just said 'skip rope and that (that meaning getting cardio and fitness up)'. I just didn't include fitness because that is kind of like common knowledge and that would probably be a requirement for just about every sport you take up.

I get Keith's point about getting him in the ring and see how he reacts, and each to their own some may do it and others may not. Personally I wouldn't mainly due to safety issues for a beginner as I also believe in slowly easing a guy into it. Though I think you can gain some insight by just doing pad work with him, and clipping him across the head decently when he drops his guard and so on. I think the way they react to that will give you some insight, but that's just me.
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (Fitz @ Feb 16 2010, 10:31 PM) *
I didn't mention speed bag, I just said 'skip rope and that (that meaning getting cardio and fitness up)'. I just didn't include fitness because that is kind of like common knowledge and that would probably be a requirement for just about every sport you take up.

I get Keith's point about getting him in the ring and see how he reacts, and each to their own some may do it and others may not. Personally I wouldn't mainly due to safety issues for a beginner as I also believe in slowly easing a guy into it. Though I think you can gain some insight by just doing pad work with him, and clipping him across the head decently when he drops his guard and so on. I think the way they react to that will give you some insight, but that's just me.

I think you are taking me wrong. I agree with you. But I do not agree that true fitness is a given. Too many leave it up to the kid to get it done, while they train them to box or fight. A level of fitness, including rhythm and reflexes, should be required BEFORE they are allowed to train. The discipline required to become fit is a prerequisite for serious training.

Just my opinion.

By the way, I agree with your safety concerns also.
Provo209
QUOTE (Keith @ Feb 16 2010, 06:48 PM) *
I say you take that newbie... put some friggin wraps, gloves, and headgear on his ass and send him straight to the ring.

Find out if he's scared. Trial by fire.


LmAO! Couple years back my trainer threw in some new guy with me it was fukn hilarious,thisguy, he was about 28 gangster guy saying he had one hitter quitters so he threw him in with me this guy was told my trainer that I was 2 small and he would hurt me .LOL .he was about 5'11 or so maybe 200 lbs , im 5'7 and at that time weighed 150 ,man I taxed his ass so bad.LOL.
Provo209
Im currently working with my son he's 6 years old and we work on Footwork the most,moving side to side and him keeping that right hand tucked close to his body and him keeping his hands up.
Lots of good ideas out there ,if anyone has any advice for me I would appreciate it.

JonnysTrainer
I always begin with footwork, just look at Benny Leonard. I have a specially designed rope that I use to put around there feet, except I have a small blade attatched a bee's dick away from there ankles, so it gives them a nice little reminder if their feet are too close or too far away.
I always begin with footwork, once that is covered I then work on their moustache/or beard. It is becoming extremely underrated these days and makes you look more masculine and can give a psychological edge.
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (JonnysTrainer @ Feb 17 2010, 12:04 AM) *
I always begin with footwork, just look at Benny Leonard. I have a specially designed rope that I use to put around there feet, except I have a small blade attatched a bee's dick away from there ankles, so it gives them a nice little reminder if their feet are too close or too far away.
I always begin with footwork, once that is covered I then work on their moustache/or beard. It is becoming extremely underrated these days and makes you look more masculine and can give a psychological edge.

LMFAO!
Snoop
Everyone here has brought in some good points, ESPECIALLY Johnny's Trainer and his mustache training. That's why he continues to be the best.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (JonnysTrainer @ Feb 17 2010, 06:04 AM) *
I always begin with footwork, just look at Benny Leonard. I have a specially designed rope that I use to put around there feet, except I have a small blade attatched a bee's dick away from there ankles, so it gives them a nice little reminder if their feet are too close or too far away.
I always begin with footwork, once that is covered I then work on their moustache/or beard. It is becoming extremely underrated these days and makes you look more masculine and can give a psychological edge.


When is brining a good idea? I think it is best to start them young so they have the hardness early.
MarzB
I can show rather than tell. This is one of my 16 year olds who had a problem with his feet coming too close and too wide.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkbUFSBmkWQ
Fitz
QUOTE (MarzB @ Feb 17 2010, 06:15 PM) *
I can show rather than tell. This is one of my 16 year olds who had a problem with his feet coming too close and too wide.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkbUFSBmkWQ


Do you mean one of your sons, or are you a trainer when you refer to them as one of your 16 year olds? I know you probably think I am trying to bait you into something some how, but I am generally curious. Haha.
JonnysTrainer
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Feb 17 2010, 02:44 AM) *
When is brining a good idea? I think it is best to start them young so they have the hardness early.


If they have been raised by good, strong, masculine and wise fathers, they should have already begun brining before they come to me. But lets cut the bullshit son, most men these days are very girly and limp wristed, so chances are when young kids come to me, they haven't began so it is one of the first things I introduce when they come to me.
Lil-lightsout
I have trained alot of guys for many years on and off. Just for fun so I would have training partners and just for the joy of teaching the stuff I was taught(when I was not at my gym). I can honestly say teaching guys the fundementals and watching them develop a little is pretty exciting and rewarding. I saw many guys get KTFO at a few gyms because they were not ready and were thrown in the ring as a punching bag to pro's or expierienced amateurs.

I always just let a new guy hit a bag or shadowbox just to see what I was working with. Then I would go from there. I think it is very important for a newbie to understand how rough and dangerous this sport is. So a little early challenge or test to see if they are really cut out for the sport would be something I would do.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (JonnysTrainer @ Feb 17 2010, 09:06 AM) *
If they have been raised by good, strong, masculine and wise fathers, they should have already begun brining before they come to me. But lets cut the bullshit son, most men these days are very girly and limp wristed, so chances are when young kids come to me, they haven't began so it is one of the first things I introduce when they come to me.


You seem very wise Mr Trainer. Were you trained by Mr Ray Arcel? He was a true old school kind of guy & you seem to follow methods like he would use. What do you think of guys liek Paul Malignaggi? Does their face cream & moisturisers get in the way of their toughness or would they just be more manly & far tougher of they did away with the sissy crap & bull pissed their face?
MarzB
QUOTE (Fitz @ Feb 17 2010, 03:01 AM) *
Do you mean one of your sons, or are you a trainer when you refer to them as one of your 16 year olds? I know you probably think I am trying to bait you into something some how, but I am generally curious. Haha.


No I don't, fair question. I mean one of the kids I train. He has other flaws and we don't work out as much as we used to be he's definitely improved from what he used to do..
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (MarzB @ Feb 17 2010, 02:15 AM) *
I can show rather than tell. This is one of my 16 year olds who had a problem with his feet coming too close and too wide.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkbUFSBmkWQ

Thanks, MarzB, for working with young people and teaching some discipline.
ROLL DEEP
Nice vid, Marz.


Wish more people would put pics/video's up on here for other uses to see.





Anyway, yeah, basic stance and footwork are the key things to teach. Everything else comes from there, really. Although as a trainer I think it's important to let the fighter develop their own style to a degree.

I'm not saying every fighter should fight like Naz Hamed with hands to the side, but once they've gained some experience and they would like to relax their guard, or widen their stance, then they should be able to without a grilling every time they do it.
MarzB
QUOTE (ROLL DEEP @ Feb 17 2010, 12:57 PM) *
Nice vid, Marz.


Wish more people would put pics/video's up on here for other uses to see.





Anyway, yeah, basic stance and footwork are the key things to teach. Everything else comes from there, really. Although as a trainer I think it's important to let the fighter develop their own style to a degree.

I'm not saying every fighter should fight like Naz Hamed with hands to the side, but once they've gained some experience and they would like to relax their guard, or widen their stance, then they should be able to without a grilling every time they do it.


Thanks for the kudos to you both and I think you make a good point about allowing them to develop a style of their own. I've heard a theory that you should "play" (fight in boxing case) like your personality. Again it's a theory but I can see why it makes sense to a degree.

My father when I was coming up and how he learned is instead of that bungy cord I was using with my kid in the vid, would use a string. If you broke the string then you couldn't do anything else. I learned REAL quick,lol. Thats probably why I can recognize bad footwork instantly. Everything centers on balance and no matter how strong, fast, quick a guy is, if he has no balance, it's useless.

But lets cut the bullshit son, most men these days are very girly and limp wristed, so chances are when young kids come to me, they haven't began so it is one of the first things I introduce when they come to me.


I couldn't agree with what you said more. I have a term for it. "THE PUSSIFICATION of MEN in America"

I admit that I watch a lot of youtube vids of kids fighting and while I should be ashamed of doing that. I'm usually looking at it to see if these kids have some actual skills. I'm more often than not disappointed as SWIM Punching with their heads leaned back is more often than not the norm.
Fitz
QUOTE (ROLL DEEP @ Feb 18 2010, 03:57 AM) *
Nice vid, Marz.


Wish more people would put pics/video's up on here for other uses to see.





Anyway, yeah, basic stance and footwork are the key things to teach. Everything else comes from there, really. Although as a trainer I think it's important to let the fighter develop their own style to a degree.

I'm not saying every fighter should fight like Naz Hamed with hands to the side, but once they've gained some experience and they would like to relax their guard, or widen their stance, then they should be able to without a grilling every time they do it.



QUOTE (MarzB @ Feb 18 2010, 04:25 AM) *
Thanks for the kudos to you both and I think you make a good point about allowing them to develop a style of their own. I've heard a theory that you should "play" (fight in boxing case) like your personality. Again it's a theory but I can see why it makes sense to a degree.

My father when I was coming up and how he learned is instead of that bungy cord I was using with my kid in the vid, would use a string. If you broke the string then you couldn't do anything else. I learned REAL quick,lol. Thats probably why I can recognize bad footwork instantly. Everything centers on balance and no matter how strong, fast, quick a guy is, if he has no balance, it's useless.

But lets cut the bullshit son, most men these days are very girly and limp wristed, so chances are when young kids come to me, they haven't began so it is one of the first things I introduce when they come to me.


I couldn't agree with what you said more. I have a term for it. "THE PUSSIFICATION of MEN in America"

I admit that I watch a lot of youtube vids of kids fighting and while I should be ashamed of doing that. I'm usually looking at it to see if these kids have some actual skills. I'm more often than not disappointed as SWIM Punching with their heads leaned back is more often than not the norm.


Agreed with both of you guys about the personality and letting them develop their own style to a degree. I pointed out earlier in the thread that I think trainers should work with fighters strengths rather than train everybody exactly the same. I think each guy should be trained slightly different and you should customise it to suit the individual.
You wouldn't train a guy like Mayweather to be a fighter, just like you wouldn't train a guy like Margarito to be a boxer. I think you just work to their strengths and then try fine tune things around it.
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