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yuca
Why are there so many draws in boxing?

The scoring system is setup in a way that promotes draws. Judges score individually and then their tallies are considered per judge. Let's take for example Pacman vs. Agapito Sanchez, a draw resulting from accidental headbutts- this is how the judges saw it- Raul Caiz Jr 55-57 | 56-56 | judge: Ric Bays 58-54 ~
One judge for Sanchez, one had it a draw, and one for Pacman. That's what we are used to see. How about if we tally up those scores and get one number?. It would be 169-167, somebody won. There is a difference of two points. It is called a draw even though the numbers themselves are saying something different.

In Pacman vs. Marquez' draw, the numbers are perfect, 338-338, that is a draw.
John Stewart 115-110 | judge: Burt A. Clements 113-113 | judge: Guy Jutras 110-115 ~338-338.

Rachman vs. Toney was scored: Tom Kaczmarek 114-114 | judge: John Stewart 117-111 | judge: Nobuaki Uratani 114-114. That's two judges scoring it a draw. But when scored as a whole there is a clear and definite winner. Even though John Stewart should keep to his nite show, j/k...

I don't like so many draws in boxing, other sports have judges and there is always a clear cut winner, even if by tenths of a point.

It will never change but as far as I'm concerned I will take the judges scores as a whole to determine a winner.




torvix2000
QUOTE (yuca @ Feb 23 2010, 04:25 PM) *
Why are there so many draws in boxing?

The scoring system is setup in a way that promotes draws. Judges score individually and then their tallies are considered per judge. Let's take for example Pacman vs. Agapito Sanchez, a draw resulting from accidental headbutts- this is how the judges saw it- Raul Caiz Jr 55-57 | 56-56 | judge: Ric Bays 58-54 ~
One judge for Sanchez, one had it a draw, and one for Pacman. That's what we are used to see. How about if we tally up those scores and get one number?. It would be 169-167, somebody won. There is a difference of two points. It is called a draw even though the numbers themselves are saying something different.

In Pacman vs. Marquez' draw, the numbers are perfect, 338-338, that is a draw.
John Stewart 115-110 | judge: Burt A. Clements 113-113 | judge: Guy Jutras 110-115 ~338-338.

Rachman vs. Toney was scored: Tom Kaczmarek 114-114 | judge: John Stewart 117-111 | judge: Nobuaki Uratani 114-114. That's two judges scoring it a draw. But when scored as a whole there is a clear and definite winner. Even though John Stewart should keep to his nite show, j/k...

I don't like so many draws in boxing, other sports have judges and there is always a clear cut winner, even if by tenths of a point.

It will never change but as far as I'm concerned I will take the judges scores as a whole to determine a winner.


This is gonna get complex.
Lil-lightsout
Though its a good thought on your part. I just don't see it working. Here is why. Lets just say fighter (A) clearly deserves the win in a competative fight. But semi-close. So two fair judges score it for fighter (A) 116-112 and 115-113. The other judge who is clearly paid off, scores for the hometown/promoters fighter in fighter B at a score of 118-110. Add all that shit up and you get the undeserving fighter B getting the win. Fighter A 341 to 343 for fighter B. Make sense?
Jack 1000
Simply put,

The loss of 15-round world title fights and the 12-round maximum mandate for all fights produces an even number of rounds. Therefore, there will always be more draws with 12-round fights than with 15-round fights.

Jack
Keith
5 judges.

Throw out the high score for each fighter.

Remaining 3 judges determine the fight.

Snoop
QUOTE (Fitz @ Feb 24 2010, 09:21 AM) *
There is always one judge that has a stupid score like 118-110, that one scorecard is enough to throw everything out.


QUOTE
5 judges.

Throw out the high score for each fighter.

Remaining 3 judges determine the fight.

What if it's a fight that actually warrants that score? Isn't it just as much of a problem to have it close when it wasn't?

There seems to be an objection to scores with a high disparity rather than scores that are just incorrect.
Snoop
QUOTE (Fitz @ Feb 25 2010, 05:01 AM) *
It doesn't matter what they do, judging will always be fucked. It has nothing to do with these judges not being able to score a fight correctly, it has everything to do with them not wanting to score fights correctly, whether it's because they are paid or the men higher up tell them other wise.
You will always get some scores that maybe aren't the best, but still almost acceptable. But judging isn't that difficult, it's not that these guys can't judge, it's that they won't.

Right. But that doesn't address my question of why a 110-118 score is automatically deemed as "stupid", when the fight could actually be a landslide. Unless of course, you weren't responding to my post, which in that case, my bad.
Snoop
QUOTE (Fitz @ Feb 25 2010, 05:07 AM) *
Sorry man, but I didn't read your post and wasn't addressing you. I just posted laugh.gif

But I did go back and read it and agree with you. I seen fights scored 115-113 when they should have been scored 118-110 and then I seen scores like 118-110 when they should be like a 115-113. But you are right, you just can't dismiss scores. You just need to dismiss the dumb cards.

Agreed. Like you said earlier, it's not the "draws" in boxing that are the problem, it's the corrupt and unqualified judges that are the problem.
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (Snoop @ Feb 25 2010, 12:45 AM) *
Agreed. Like you said earlier, it's not the "draws" in boxing that are the problem, it's the corrupt and unqualified judges that are the problem.

Indeed.
Keith
QUOTE (Snoop @ Feb 24 2010, 10:58 PM) *
What if it's a fight that actually warrants that score? Isn't it just as much of a problem to have it close when it wasn't?

There seems to be an objection to scores with a high disparity rather than scores that are just incorrect.


Ya sure, a fucked score is a fucked score.

I am just of the opinion that you need more then 3 judges. 5 would be better, the more eyes the better.

It would make it more dificult to "fix" the fight.
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (Keith @ Feb 25 2010, 08:12 AM) *
Ya sure, a fucked score is a fucked score.

I am just of the opinion that you need more then 3 judges. 5 would be better, the more eyes the better.

It would make it more dificult to "fix" the fight.

Yeah, give me a fuheckin scorecard.
Keith
From my point of view, draws are just bad in general.

NOBODY watches or participates in a fight hoping it ends in a draw.

So they should figure out a way to get rid of them.
yuca
QUOTE (Fitz @ Feb 24 2010, 11:07 PM) *
I seen fights scored 115-113 when they should have been scored 118-110 and then I seen scores like 118-110 when they should be like a 115-113. But you are right, you just can't dismiss scores. You just need to dismiss the dumb cards.

This is why there is more than one judge, because scoring is subjective. How can you disqualify someones pov? Because it doesnt agree with yours?
Fitz
QUOTE (yuca @ Feb 26 2010, 10:10 AM) *
This is why there is more than one judge, because scoring is subjective. How can you disqualify someones pov? Because it doesnt agree with yours?


Scoring is subjective and it's why you get difference of opinion for fights like Hopkins-Calzaghe, Hopkins-Taylor, Pacquiao-Marquez and so on. But sometimes you literally get dumb cards where it isn't some ones opinion, it is just flat out wrong.
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (Keith @ Feb 25 2010, 11:21 AM) *
From my point of view, draws are just bad in general.

NOBODY watches or participates in a fight hoping it ends in a draw.

So they should figure out a way to get rid of them.

Flip a coin?
Draw straws?
Let the ring girls decide?
Quiz them on boxing history?
Do shots until one loses consciousness?
Keith
QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ Feb 25 2010, 09:25 PM) *
Flip a coin?
Draw straws?
Let the ring girls decide?
Quiz them on boxing history?
Do shots until one loses consciousness?


I dont know. I dont get paid to know.

Every other sport has figured out that ties or draws do not make anyone happy. We watch and participate in sport to make ourselves happy.

Do you disagree?

Here's a crazy one for you to digest.... WTF does it take so long to add up the friggin scorecards? Its simple 2nd grade math. I mean shit, do the addition every round and get the cards done and up to the ring in say 20-30 seconds after the last round. Instead of the match being over after the last round and having the fighters take their gloves off and parade around the ring... announce the score within a minute(thats the in between round time anyway), and if its a draw have them fight 1 last round for all the marbles.

THAT WOULD BE A GREAT FRIGGIN ROUND for both the fighters to become stars and great for the fans to watch!
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (Keith @ Feb 25 2010, 09:48 PM) *
I dont know. I dont get paid to know.

Every other sport has figured out that ties or draws do not make anyone happy. We watch and participate in sport to make ourselves happy.

Do you disagree?

Here's a crazy one for you to digest.... WTF does it take so long to add up the friggin scorecards? Its simple 2nd grade math. I mean shit, do the addition every round and get the cards done and up to the ring in say 20-30 seconds after the last round. Instead of the match being over after the last round and having the fighters take their gloves off and parade around the ring... announce the score within a minute(thats the in between round time anyway), and if its a draw have them fight 1 last round for all the marbles.

THAT WOULD BE A GREAT FRIGGIN ROUND for both the fighters to become stars and great for the fans to watch!

NOW we're gettin' somewhere.

I like it. But I have liked the idea of an NCAA football playoff and the legalization of weed since I was a teen. In case you haven't figured it out, that is a long ass time ago.
Fitz
I just don't have much against draws. Sometimes they really are warranted, in some cases nobody deserves to win and other times nobody deserved to lose.
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (Fitz @ Feb 25 2010, 10:14 PM) *
I just don't have much against draws. Sometimes they really are warranted, in some cases nobody deserves to win and other times nobody deserved to lose.

True, but Keith's idea is a good one.
Warlord
It'll never happen in boxing, but Pride used to make fighters fight one more round when a fight ended in a draw. It was, and is, the most practical solution. Which is why, again, it'll never happen in boxing.
ROLL DEEP
QUOTE (Warlord @ Feb 26 2010, 04:31 AM) *
It'll never happen in boxing, but Pride used to make fighters fight one more round when a fight ended in a draw. It was, and is, the most practical solution. Which is why, again, it'll never happen in boxing.



Yeah, I've always thought that this was a good idea too.

Lil-lightsout
The one extra round would be good ONLY for title fights. Then the freaking champion does not keep his belt from a draw, just does not seem right to me.
yuca
It just seems wrong that rounds are scored 10-9 and the very rare 10-8 w/out a kd.
Other than that it seems unfair that every round is scored the same.
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