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Nay_Sayer
Did Hopkins ruin Taylor or was Jermain just another protected fighter who got exposed?

Pavlik, Froch, and Abraham are not on Hopkins' level but all three own KO victories over "Bad Decisions".

Thoughts??
The CEO
He didn't take any real punishment in the Hopkins fights AND got the wins....if anything, I think that would have charged him up...having TWO big wins in a row like that.

I think it was Pavlik who cut his prime short and sent him downhill with that brutally devastating come from behind stoppage in their first bout...he did to Taylor what Tyson did to Marvis Frazier...thumped him and slumped him.

Gave 'im the ole Thump 'n' Slump...lol
ezdoseit
QUOTE (Nay_Sayer @ Mar 8 2010, 02:58 PM) *
Did Hopkins ruin Taylor or was Jermain just another protected fighter who got exposed?

Pavlik, Froch, and Abraham are not on Hopkins' level but all three own KO victories over "Bad Decisions".

Thoughts??


No...... Not even close a ruin fighter would not be competive. jermain taylor had a chance to win every time he was in the ring......bernard hopkins is a fraud every big fight he won he was the bigger man except taver who is shot as a top fighter.....
King Eugene
Nah he didn't ruin him. His lack of conditioning and elevation of skill level did. He is always a threat to win the fight until late in the fight when he tires out. He wouldn't have been stopped by Pavlik the first time had he been in good condition.
thehype
Actually, it was Lou DiBella who ruined Jermain Taylor.

Truth be told, physically, Jermain Taylor can still fight. Despite being stopped by Abraham, Froch and Pavlik, he was actually doing pretty good and in every one of those fights...he was never dominated from pillar to post. In my opinion, I don't even think he needs to "retire" because, outside of the last one, none of those knockout losses were really that brutal.

Jermain Taylor's mental state of mind, however, is what was ruined by DiBella the minute he put him on the fast track to a world title. You gotta have the mental state of mind to go with your physical attributes, and sadly, that's just not something that Taylor was ever given the opportunity to develop. Some guys are born with that kind of mental toughness...others have to develop it. Taylor, obviously, was one of those who had to develop it and the minute he was finally starting to put it together (around the time of the Joppy fight), DiBella decided to put him with one of the most cerebral fighters in the game. Dumb, dumb, DUMB move! Taylor may have "won" those fights against Hopkins, but you can tell at the end of those fights that mentally, the doubts were creeping back in to Taylor's head. His next couple of fights (Spinks, Ouma and Wright) only added to the unraveling of his mental state of mind. With each of those fights being close and so many people saying the other guys (mainly just Wright and Spinks) deserved the victory, it's no wonder that Taylor began to seriously doubt his abilities. It all came to a head in the Pavlik fight, when he was able to put Pavlik down, but not away...from there, it was just a fast track all down hill.

But it wasn't just one particular fighter that "ruined" Taylor...it was a combination of all of those fights that basically killed Taylor's mental state of mind. But if you have to put the blame on one person, it would be his promoter, Lou DiBella, who's only job is to guide his career and build him up the right way. That's just not something that Lou DiBella knows how to do. Whatever he wants, the man wants it fast and now and that's how DiBella treats his fighters. And don't think that Taylor is the only one. Paulie Malignaggi is another fighter that Lou did that too (i.e. the Miguel Cotto bout)...and Andre Berto will likely suffer the same fate as Jermain Taylor if he himself is not wary of any offers made by DiBella.

Just my two cents on the whole subject, but I'm quite sure there's going to be a lot more revealed about Lou DiBella in the very near future on the front page of FightHype.com.

laugh.gif
mexi-cutioner
Taylor is still among the best in the division imo, he was highly competitive in alll those losses and i thought was winning the majority of those fights when going into the second half of the fight. His conditioning is definitely suspect, but if anything, I think Taylor suffers from Zab Judah syndome lol. All the talent and athleticism in the world but lacks mental toughness and has a vulnerable chin
Snoop
I was just surprised that it took Jermaine this long to realize that a good diet affects your conditioning.
Nay_Sayer
QUOTE (thehype @ Mar 8 2010, 02:52 PM) *
and Andre Berto will likely suffer the same fate as Jermain Taylor if he himself is not wary of any offers made by DiBella.

Hmmmmm....

You make a good point.

I thought Berto was in over his head against Mosley and I feel the same way with Quintana.

Quintana is going to give Berto the business...
Lil-lightsout
QUOTE (Nay_Sayer @ Mar 8 2010, 04:07 PM) *
Hmmmmm....

You make a good point.

I thought Berto was in over his head against Mosley and I feel the same way with Quintana.

Quintana is going to give Berto the business...



I think Berto stops Quintana. I think it is a good much easier fight for Berto. Quintana is decent, but Cotto destroyed him and walked right threw him, and PW did the same in the rematch. I just do not see Quintana dealing with Berto too well. Just my take.
D-MARV
I don't think Hopkins "ruined" Taylor... Taylor won both fights and has been competitive in EVERY fight he's been in. I think he needs to be matched up better before he tries to win another title.
Lil-lightsout
As for Taylor... I will go with Pavlik for ruining Taylor. Taylor fought a very good Hopkins and beat him twice. If anything his mentality should have skyrocketed after those wins. Pavlik KO'd him brutally and shook him up. He got beat again in the rematch. It is ALL mental with this guy. He does not believe in himself deep down...about many things. He now barely lets his hands go and paces himself way too much and is unsure of his conditioning. He is finished with elite competition unless he gets a good shrink and gets his head straight. Boxing is just so much mental.
JD
Manny Steward ruined Jermain Taylor.
neophyte7
Hopkins ruined him mentally because Taylor's monkey ass was touted as the truth and could barley get by the old man-- Hopkins won fight one hands down- a draw in fight II in my eyes... In fight one from 9-12 Hopkins put some serious hurt on Taylor- I recall his monkey ass looking to the ref for help...
E.C.LEGEND
Fame and Arkansas ruined JT. when he was suppose to be training he was out partying and buying lambos. thats what he was doing before the winky wright fight. He was hyping up an after party right before that fight. Arkansas ruined him because he stopped giving away free tickets and all of his friends turned their backs on him. They would go on radio stations and just bad mouth the hell out him. He also had a mistress that was supposedly pregnant with his baby that was brutally murdered. Thats what ruined JT.
Fitz
QUOTE (The CEO @ Mar 9 2010, 07:29 AM) *
He didn't take any real punishment in the Hopkins fights AND got the wins....if anything, I think that would have charged him up...having TWO big wins in a row like that.

I think it was Pavlik who cut his prime short and sent him downhill with that brutally devastating come from behind stoppage in their first bout...he did to Taylor what Tyson did to Marvis Frazier...thumped him and slumped him.

Gave 'im the ole Thump 'n' Slump...lol


I disagree that Pavlik ruined him. He beats Hopkins and then gets questionable decisions over Wright (no shame in that), and also got questionable decisions over Spinks and Ouma which wasn't good. This was all before the Pavlik fight, the only difference is that none of them can punch through a wet paper bag. They did everything Pavlik did, maybe even better, they just didn't have the power.
Taylor was losing and getting beat to an extent well before Pavlik, they just didn't have the power to end it. The difference now is, he has moved up and everyone he is fighting now has the power to end it.
The CEO
QUOTE (Fitz @ Mar 8 2010, 06:38 PM) *
I disagree that Pavlik ruined him. He beats Hopkins and then gets questionable decisions over Wright (no shame in that), and also got questionable decisions over Spinks and Ouma which wasn't good. This was all before the Pavlik fight, the only difference is that none of them can punch through a wet paper bag. They did everything Pavlik did, maybe even better, they just didn't have the power.
Taylor was losing and getting beat to an extent well before Pavlik, they just didn't have the power to end it. The difference now is, he has moved up and everyone he is fighting now has the power to end it.


You disagree with me on Pavlik??...what a surprise...lol
HaydelHammer
Jermain (IMO) was never "exposed" by anyone.....he was what he was...a young strong guy, stubborn, basic skills, fought with a "I'm not your bitch" attitude vs everybody anywhere anytime.

He never was very technical and basically won with attrition. He'd give his all early and stand his ground vs anybody b/c he was/is so strong.

........sure this is all post jermain, but I told a friend this years ago about jermain......it took him years later to finally understand what I meant. Jermain got what he could get out of himself imo. He is a strong dude that hits hard apparently enough to keep people away with a jab and straight right which is pretty much all he used from day one to the end.

His style of give and take was going to take it's toll on him sooner or later imo. Had he learned simple head movement and how to counter punch that dude could have been deadly for years.

Fitz
QUOTE (The CEO @ Mar 9 2010, 11:11 AM) *
You disagree with me on Pavlik??...what a surprise...lol


lol. It's true. Unless you are suggesting that Taylor should have always struggled with Ouma and Spinks after beating Hopkins?

He was struggling with fighters he shouldn't well before Pavlik, the only difference is that none of them didn't have the power to end it. To me that isn't disputable, but each to their own, lol.
Provo209
Taylor would be the man if he fought 7 round fights LOL..

Ever since he got knocked out the first time he hasn't been the same ,I think lots of fighters after a Knockout aint the same its in the back of their mind.
Method
QUOTE (neophyte7 @ Mar 8 2010, 05:13 PM) *
Hopkins ruined him mentally because Taylor's monkey ass was touted as the truth and could barley get by the old man-- Hopkins won fight one hands down- a draw in fight II in my eyes... In fight one from 9-12 Hopkins put some serious hurt on Taylor- I recall his monkey ass looking to the ref for help...


Hopkins ruined him mentally. EXACTLY. I had Hopkins winning BOTH of those fights. Regardless, Taylor knew he got somewhat of a gift the first time around (shit, look at the reaction of he AND DiBella when the decision was read). The second time around, there was no way HBO was gonna let their "star" lose anything remotely competitive - too much was vested in him.

Problem was, the Hopkins fights had Jermain SERIOUSLY questioning his ability. He was to be the heir apparent, but he squeaked by w questionable decisions and never ever really landed anything on Hopkins. Obviously Hopkins didn't ruin Jermain the way he did say, Joppy, Trinidad, Echols, Lipsey, etc, etc, but sometimes a mental ass whooping is just as bad.

Just my opinion.
The Original MrFactor
Taylor got ruined by stepping up. He stopped fighting Tomato cans and fought a bunch of very good fighters in a row... He got no breaks.
mexi-cutioner
QUOTE (E.C.LEGEND @ Mar 8 2010, 02:59 PM) *
Fame and Arkansas ruined JT. when he was suppose to be training he was out partying and buying lambos. thats what he was doing before the winky wright fight. He was hyping up an after party right before that fight. Arkansas ruined him because he stopped giving away free tickets and all of his friends turned their backs on him. They would go on radio stations and just bad mouth the hell out him. He also had a mistress that was supposedly pregnant with his baby that was brutally murdered. Thats what ruined JT.


Those three things would ruin any pro athlete..especially the last part Jesus that's horrible
Method
Also something that should be noted, and Im not sure how widely known this is, but Taylor slacks off big time between fights AND in camp. Pat Burns told me his damn self. He had to be ALL OVER Jermain during camp because JT likes to eat all that comfort food when he was down here training in Miami, and you know that shit will kill you.

I like Jermain Taylor. One of the nicest, most genuine guys I've ever met "covering" the sport (and I use that term loosely). I have to give it up that no matter what I think of his decisions wins to Hopkins, etc, he has fought a LOT of solid competition. Cant criticize that, man.
E.C.LEGEND
QUOTE (mexi-cutioner @ Mar 9 2010, 04:05 AM) *
Those three things would ruin any pro athlete..especially the last part Jesus that's horrible

yeah when I was living in arkansas he was always in the news and on local tv shows and you could tell the fame was taking over. He was always on the broadway joe video. (local little rock show) when he was there he never hyped up his fights. He would always talk about where the after party was, show off his jewelry. his attitude changed when his friends dissed him. It got so bad that his mom and his sister would call the radio stations during the rants of his friends the defend JT. There are many people there that believe that he hired someone to make the woman miscarriage but they ended up killing her. To be honest with all the shit that was probably going through his head, fighting was the last thing on his mind.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (thehype @ Mar 8 2010, 02:52 PM) *
Actually, it was Lou DiBella who ruined Jermain Taylor.

Truth be told, physically, Jermain Taylor can still fight. Despite being stopped by Abraham, Froch and Pavlik, he was actually doing pretty good and in every one of those fights...he was never dominated from pillar to post. In my opinion, I don't even think he needs to "retire" because, outside of the last one, none of those knockout losses were really that brutal.

Jermain Taylor's mental state of mind, however, is what was ruined by DiBella the minute he put him on the fast track to a world title. You gotta have the mental state of mind to go with your physical attributes, and sadly, that's just not something that Taylor was ever given the opportunity to develop. Some guys are born with that kind of mental toughness...others have to develop it. Taylor, obviously, was one of those who had to develop it and the minute he was finally starting to put it together (around the time of the Joppy fight), DiBella decided to put him with one of the most cerebral fighters in the game. Dumb, dumb, DUMB move! Taylor may have "won" those fights against Hopkins, but you can tell at the end of those fights that mentally, the doubts were creeping back in to Taylor's head. His next couple of fights (Spinks, Ouma and Wright) only added to the unraveling of his mental state of mind. With each of those fights being close and so many people saying the other guys (mainly just Wright and Spinks) deserved the victory, it's no wonder that Taylor began to seriously doubt his abilities. It all came to a head in the Pavlik fight, when he was able to put Pavlik down, but not away...from there, it was just a fast track all down hill.

But it wasn't just one particular fighter that "ruined" Taylor...it was a combination of all of those fights that basically killed Taylor's mental state of mind. But if you have to put the blame on one person, it would be his promoter, Lou DiBella, who's only job is to guide his career and build him up the right way. That's just not something that Lou DiBella knows how to do. Whatever he wants, the man wants it fast and now and that's how DiBella treats his fighters. And don't think that Taylor is the only one. Paulie Malignaggi is another fighter that Lou did that too (i.e. the Miguel Cotto bout)...and Andre Berto will likely suffer the same fate as Jermain Taylor if he himself is not wary of any offers made by DiBella.

Just my two cents on the whole subject, but I'm quite sure there's going to be a lot more revealed about Lou DiBella in the very near future on the front page of FightHype.com.

laugh.gif


you basically said what i was thinking hype but to also add ive always been of the opinion that taylor was moved into the hopkins fight to early... he just so happened had a busy enough style to handle the aging champ though.. i thought hopkins actually won one of those though i forget which one... lol... i always felt moving him like they did caused his skill level to peak to soon before he could get any better cuzz you can argue taylor never got any better than what he was in the hopkins fights...
Keith

Lets see if I can sum this up...

Dibella mismanaged his career
Hopkins broke his confidence
Jermain ruined his own body
Pavlik turned his brain to mush

Hows that sound guys?
The CEO
laugh.gif

Fitz don't want Pavlik gettin' ANY credit for ANYTHING...


Styyyles make fiiights, Fitzy...that's the reason Ouma and Spinks made it hard for Taylor....which is ironically, the same reason Pavlik will have some trouble with Martinez...

but like old Joe Cal used to say...."at the end of the day" .....Pavlik > Kessler.

wink.gif
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (The CEO @ Mar 9 2010, 07:45 PM) *
laugh.gif

Fitz don't want Pavlik gettin' ANY credit for ANYTHING...


Styyyles make fiiights, Fitzy...that's the reason Ouma and Spinks made it hard for Taylor....which is ironically, the same reason Pavlik will have some trouble with Martinez...

but like old Joe Cal used to say...."at the end of the day" .....Pavlik > Kessler.

wink.gif


i think pavlik loses to martinez skullspliter... lol...
Thegreatequalizer
i just think he never had it. he built his rep beating up jr. middles and then beats hopklins more because of hopkins lack of offense than for any offense from taylor. i think he is a good upper level guy, but just short of good champion. i don't think there was any specific point of him getting ruined. i think this was the inevitable result of his technical shortcomings.
ViperSniper
Although I scored both fights in favour of Taylor against Hopkins I always believed he was still too green when the 1st fight was signed. I felt Hopkins was way too experience & crafty, but it turned out Taylors youth & athleticism was enough to beat Hopkins but struggled doing so.

Taylor was a prospect in one fight & in the next was in the ring against one of, if not the greatest Middleweights of all time. After 24 rounds of figuring out the B-Hop puzzle then fights with Winky & Spinks who are both extremely skilled smart fighters it would have left JT with a headache.
By the time he fought Pavlik he had shown more than once his vulnerabilities in his recent performances & been critized for them too. Pavlik survived the early JT storm & had the power to end it there. From that point on Jermain was mentally drain & beat which was the point he started to really decline even more so.

Hopkins may have discouraged Taylor during the fights but did not ‘ruin’ Taylor OR his career. I think there is a combination of things (career rushed being the main) which may relate to eachother that lead to his decline (management, JT, corner?)…I just would not hold Hopkins responsible for that, that’s all.
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