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King Eugene
I'm all for everyone getting healthcare but what I dont like about it is the fact that some of the leaches will continue to be leaches and take advantage of the opportunity to not have to work equally as hard to pay for it like I do. I mean I dont like the fact that my insurance rates are going to go up but I do know there are some people(my family included) who cant afford it yet need it and dont take advantage of it either. As far as abortion, I'm not for it or against it. Some people aren't fit to have or take care of children but at the same time they should also recognize that and time necessary precautions but this isn't a perfect world so that just wont happen all the time. I've always said as long as they make gold wrappers the kid wont be having any kids til I'm married. What do you guys think about it?
Snoop
I'd have to read more about the specifics of the bill to make an informed decision. From what I know, the bill has been changed numerous times since it was first announced.

But to generalize things, if it's about allowing more Americans access to health care, then I'm all for it. True, there are going to be leeches here and there, but they usually make up a small percentage of the people that will actually benefit from public health care. Developed nations like Canada and many countries in Europe have been doing this for decades and from what I've heard, most citizens are extremely happy with the way it works.

It's ridiculous, almost shameful, that Americans, as rich and privileged as we are, still have the staggering rates of diseases and untreated medical conditions in our country. Shit if I gotta pay a little extra to help my fellow citizen be well, I don't mind. In the long run, it makes us as a society at large, run smoother.
BGv2.0
Well...I mean this just opens the doors for everybody to have some sort of health care.....AND...as for "paying for it"....we do that already.

When a poor person has no recourse but to go to an emergency room where legally they cannot be denied....they recieve the care...and then can't pay the bill.....guess who that price gets passed to.....

YEP....all of us....that's why a damn asparin tablet is $6 in the hospital.

This way....ALL people even poor folks will have some sort of plan that will allow them to get help early with simple office visits...something that was not easy to do the way the system was set up before.

I mean think about it....is it not cheaper to have a poor street guy go to the Dr. and get some antibiotics for a cough early on....then the final price if the same guy has to wait for it to get so bad that he then goes to the emergency room where they diagnos it as pnemonia and then he has to stay in the hospital for 2-3 days on the taxpayers dime.

I'd rather pay for that same individual to get the help early at a cheaper cost to me....then to have the system as it is now.

AND....we all know that "pre-existing" BS was evil fromt he get go.....

That's my main concern with this bill.....it's sooooo watered down as opposed to what they originally wanted. I do not like the fact at all that the Health Insurance agencies are still going to be involved....they are pure scum for the most part.

But...on the whole I think it will be better...maybe not as much on the pocketbook as most would like it to be...but morally it's the right thing to do.

The part I find astounding is how this whole deal could have been funded EASY by slight cuts to defense spending.

Take for example all of the troops we have stationed in Germany and Japan....I think it's pretty safe to assume they are no longer a threat...we won that war...close all that shit down and save TONS.

BUT....that's just me.


Have you guys seen the Youtube video about the poor Parkinson's guy that was holding a sign up PRO HEALTH care reform at a Conservative Anti-health care rally?

If somebody can do it....post it on here from youtube....I'm at work and they block youtube from us.

It's sickining how much some people view money as opposed to their fellow man.

I like to consider myself middle of the road, in relation to politics.....but that shit would make me NEVER want to be a Republican....the conservatives in that video are VILE human beings!

KYLE THEEE SPINKS FAN
I haven't looked into it enough to have a solid educated opinion. I actually had an interview with United Health Group a month ago, and they've been preparing for quite awhile for this to pass. Hospitals should be happy too. They bill people that can't afford, and end up having to write it off. I'd assume this will lessen the bad debt expense for hospitals as well. Who knows, maybe hospital trips won't cost as much anymore. I doubt that though, but I can think out loud.
BGv2.0
For those wanting to actually read it....it's 2700 pages long....let's wait for the Cliff Notes! lol
BGv2.0
QUOTE (Fitz @ Mar 22 2010, 04:32 PM) *
Not sure how close it is to the Australian healthcare, but we have one of the best health cares in the world. The people are complaining are just being stupid. Everyone here are happy with the healthcare system and everyone else who have similar healthcare system is happy. In the past, all I have heard from American's in how their healthcare system sucks, they can't afford it. I have heard of stories in the past about healthcare and I just wonder how that is possible.
I don't know the finer print on your new system, but if it's anything like down here, you will be better off.



The initial drafts were very much what you guys have....now....not so much. That's why I said I'm really dissapointed at what it ended up being....this will have some far reaching effects....but not nearly the level of effects it would have had in the early drafts.


"being stupid" should be the dictionary definition for American Politics.

The nonsense scare tactics politicians and party people used to scare this thing down to what it is reeks of stupidity. We actually have people here that believed that the bill was going to allow for "death panels".....

How our those "death panels" working for you guys down under? LOL

People actually believed that the governement was going to make panels that would review your worth as a human being and if you deserve to get health care or not...for example....too old....forget about it....we choose to let you die. LOL

I can't make make this shit up man,......and it shames me to have to admit that many American were walking around REALLY thinking this was going to be the case.
King Eugene
Its a lot too it that I'm unaware of so I do appreciate you guys comments. I just knew the basics and from what I know I'm with the bill. BG I like your example about the guy with a cold to pneumonia. Never thought about it that way. From day one I was always for it just because I had loved ones I knew that couldn't afford it and wouldn't take it for granite.
KookedKrack
QUOTE (BGv2.0 @ Mar 22 2010, 02:58 PM) *
Have you guys seen the Youtube video about the poor Parkinson's guy that was holding a sign up PRO HEALTH care reform at a Conservative Anti-health care rally?

If somebody can do it....post it on here from youtube....I'm at work and they block youtube from us.

It's sickining how much some people view money as opposed to their fellow man.

I like to consider myself middle of the road, in relation to politics.....but that shit would make me NEVER want to be a Republican....the conservatives in that video are VILE human beings!


I seen that video and it's fucking disgusting the dude is there shaking and those fucks are throwing money at him. The worst part is that the conservatives are the ones that are big on religion and values yet find this type of behavior acceptable. I know that group doesn't speak for all conservatives and I am far from religious but that shit definitely was not a what would Jesus do situation.

edit here is the vid.


Snoop
QUOTE (BGv2.0 @ Mar 22 2010, 08:58 PM) *
Well...I mean this just opens the doors for everybody to have some sort of health care.....AND...as for "paying for it"....we do that already.

When a poor person has no recourse but to go to an emergency room where legally they cannot be denied....they recieve the care...and then can't pay the bill.....guess who that price gets passed to.....

YEP....all of us....that's why a damn asparin tablet is $6 in the hospital.

This way....ALL people even poor folks will have some sort of plan that will allow them to get help early with simple office visits...something that was not easy to do the way the system was set up before.

I mean think about it....is it not cheaper to have a poor street guy go to the Dr. and get some antibiotics for a cough early on....then the final price if the same guy has to wait for it to get so bad that he then goes to the emergency room where they diagnos it as pnemonia and then he has to stay in the hospital for 2-3 days on the taxpayers dime.

I'd rather pay for that same individual to get the help early at a cheaper cost to me....then to have the system as it is now.

AND....we all know that "pre-existing" BS was evil fromt he get go.....

That's my main concern with this bill.....it's sooooo watered down as opposed to what they originally wanted. I do not like the fact at all that the Health Insurance agencies are still going to be involved....they are pure scum for the most part.

But...on the whole I think it will be better...maybe not as much on the pocketbook as most would like it to be...but morally it's the right thing to do.

The part I find astounding is how this whole deal could have been funded EASY by slight cuts to defense spending.

Take for example all of the troops we have stationed in Germany and Japan....I think it's pretty safe to assume they are no longer a threat...we won that war...close all that shit down and save TONS.

BUT....that's just me.


Have you guys seen the Youtube video about the poor Parkinson's guy that was holding a sign up PRO HEALTH care reform at a Conservative Anti-health care rally?

If somebody can do it....post it on here from youtube....I'm at work and they block youtube from us.

It's sickining how much some people view money as opposed to their fellow man.

I like to consider myself middle of the road, in relation to politics.....but that shit would make me NEVER want to be a Republican....the conservatives in that video are VILE human beings!

Yup. Basically how I see it.

I don't really understand how this whole f'n "death panels" hysteria got created. It's almost like the people who are protesting the healthcare bill are the ones that are going to benefit from it. The only ones that it will impact negatively are the insurance companies and the ridiculously rich, and IMO, they can go fuck themselves.

Snoop
QUOTE (Fitz @ Mar 22 2010, 10:32 PM) *
Not sure how close it is to the Australian healthcare, but we have one of the best health cares in the world. The people are complaining are just being stupid. Everyone here are happy with the healthcare system and everyone else who have similar healthcare system is happy. In the past, all I have heard from American's in how their healthcare system sucks, they can't afford it. I have heard of stories in the past about healthcare and I just wonder how that is possible.
I don't know the finer print on your new system, but if it's anything like down here, you will be better off.

I'm glad someone from another country commented on this. I've talked extensively about this from my Canadian and European friends and they view our healthcare system as insanely backwards. They're always like, "you're the richest nation in the world but you have an incredibly sick population that can't be taken care of? What?"
Method

The bill is SHIT.

Even WORSE is how they passed it.

I'll leave it at that.
Spyder
QUOTE (Method @ Mar 22 2010, 07:53 PM) *
The bill is SHIT.

Even WORSE is how they passed it.

I'll leave it at that.

The fact that people comment more, and know even less is a little amusing...

NOBODY knows what's in that 2700 pages, since the Washington Mob, back-doored that shit through before The People could even digest it. The parts that we DO know suck balls.

Cliff Notes of the KNOWN suckness...
- 10 years of raised taxes and medicare cuts will only pay for 6 years of coverage.
- The total cost of the bill is being pitched at $950 Billion, but the actual cost is estimated at almost twice that.
- EVERYBODY will be mandated to purchase some kind of Health Insurance...if you don't, then you will get fined out the ass. The IRS will collect it.

I'm going to stop and dwell on that last one for a bit...in case anyone missed it...The US Government is forcing its citizens to buy something. How we spend our money is no longer our decision. If I wanted to pay the doctor with cash out of pocket in an as needed basis...like I did until last year, then I would be breaking the law.

That would be like the government telling us that we have to buy a car, or a house, or a gallon of milk...and now that forced purchase allows the government to control a 6th of the countries' economy.

That's right, the same government that couldn't even manage a fucking CASH FOR CLUNKERS PROGRAM!

laugh.gif

I'm glad that they know what I should spend my money on better than I do...
Douchebag
QUOTE (Method @ Mar 22 2010, 07:53 PM) *
The bill is SHIT.

Even WORSE is how they passed it.

I'll leave it at that.



I KNEW this would be your stance on this thing before I even came into this thread. LOL

Just thought it was funny that I called it.
Method
I don't see anywhere in this thread where you "called it", but I could see how some Papa Jonh's pizza tossing sucker like yourself would be all about it.

You don't need to look to me for an adverse opinion - turn on Bloomberg TV, CNBC, CNN, MSNBC. NOBODY in their right mind favors this thing, except for random guests on said networks that are probably big time political lobbyists. Any analyst or expert that gets on those networks, or the majority of them, anyway, point out cognitively why it's no good. I guess if you could afford basic cable you'd know this, but I guess you're waiting for your boy Obama to make cable free for all as well.

Spyder just laid out the basics, yet you choose to ignore and instead lay some stupid shit out at me?

Hype did you a favor by banning Warlord from this site for your ignorant ass.

Spyder
Some people like the idea of "getting" something that somebody else is paying for...but the thing that they forget is that everything comes at a price.

It's like being a kid. When you're a kid, your parents give you everything. They feed you, buy you toys, take you to baseball practice...everything. The price you pay is that you have to obey their rules. You have to kiss your old Aunt Florence when she comes to visit. You can't cuss in the house. You have to be nice to your sisters. You have to be home from the movies at a certain time.

You are living the life that they allow. And this is the best part...now that they have you, what will stop them from taking shit away? You got a D in math...no more baseball. You got into a fight with the kid down the street...no more riding your bike for a month. They are the Lord of your entire existence.

It's not until you grow up, and make your own living that you can actually appreciate what freedom truly is. You have the RIGHT, to go and buy whatever you want. You don't have to ask permission. You don't have to wait for your grades to go back up. You just do it whenever you feel like it. It's these liberties that make being a responsible adult so great.

Coupled with the realization that ANYBODY...it doesn't matter where you came from, or what your parents do for a living...ANYBODY can strive to become whatever they want to be. THAT'S what makes being an American so great.

The Death of The American Dream....this current class of college graduates was polled with the question, "Do you think that you will become more successful than your parents?" For the first time EVER, the majority answered "NO".
Spyder
QUOTE (Fitz @ Mar 22 2010, 10:25 PM) *
I said earlier that I don't know how close your plan is to Australia's healthcare plan. But every country (including this) and others that have similar plans have the BEST healthcare in the world and nothing else comes close. People are happy with the health plan, though all I ever heard up there was how shitty your healthcare system is, I even hear that some of you American's went to Canada for their healthcare, lol. I know people were sick because they couldn't afford medical bills and all there was were complaints and complaints.
Like I said, I don't know how close it is to our plan, but if it's remotely close. Nobody should be whining about nothing because it is the best health care system in the world and the one you had previously was utter, utter garbage.
Though I get the feeling it is still a little off from the plan we have because BG was saying it was close when they were using the draft but the final came out a shit load different. So I can't comment too much.

laugh.gif

I'm sorry for laughing at you, but you must watch(or at least talk to people that watch) Michael Moore movies...lol...the US has THE BEST healthcare system in the world. It is the complete opposite of what you've heard. Canadians come down here to get treated after being on an 18 month waiting list. The Canadian Fucking Prime Minister came to the US for his heart surgery! lol

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianp...wYz_6_b-gsGGDxA

I'm sorry to doubt your claim, but America is on the cutting edge of EVERY FUCKING MEDICAL PROCEDURE. When the shit hits the fan, there is not another place that you'd rather be.
STEVENSKI
I like this song.

You spend your life on welfare lines
Or looking for handouts
Why don't you go find a job
You birth more kids to up your checks
So you can buy more drugs
Cash in food stamps and get drunk

Uncle Sam takes half my pay
So you can live for free
I got a family and bills to pay
No one hands money to me

You can go to school for nothing
Get money in advance
Got that government grant
When you're sick from shooting up
Medicaid pays full portion
When little Maria gets knocked up
She gets a free abortion


How come it's minorities who cry
Things are too tough
On TV with their gold chains
Claim they don't have enough
I say make them clean the sewers
Don't take no resistance
If they don't like it go to hell
And cut their public assistance

Snoop
QUOTE (Spyder @ Mar 23 2010, 03:37 AM) *
laugh.gif

I'm sorry for laughing at you, but you must watch(or at least talk to people that watch) Michael Moore movies...lol...the US has THE BEST healthcare system in the world. It is the complete opposite of what you've heard. Canadians come down here to get treated after being on an 18 month waiting list. The Canadian Fucking Prime Minister came to the US for his heart surgery! lol

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianp...wYz_6_b-gsGGDxA

I'm sorry to doubt your claim, but America is on the cutting edge of EVERY FUCKING MEDICAL PROCEDURE. When the shit hits the fan, there is not another place that you'd rather be.

I dunno Spyder. I think that's debatable. I think healthcare is great for those who have access to it, but you can't deny that medical services are fucking expensive in this country, I mean even for some simple shit like a monthly checkup.

I can understand your gripe with forcing Americans to pay for healthcare, which I wasn't aware was put into the bill. As I stated in my first post, there's a lot of shit that changed since the bill was first proposed, almost a completely different bill from what I've heard. But if it's truly a move towards a more universal healthcare system, then I'm all for it. I think access to healthcare here is shamefully unequal and again it's ridiculous that we're simultaneously one of the richest and sickest countries in the world.

And really the healthcare issue shouldn't be analyzed apart from everything else in the country. I mean we're HORRIBLE when it comes to preventative measures, not to mention how our profit driven food industry is literally poisoning us with GM produce and corn fed meat.

Then if you want to talk about costs, we've spent nearly that much on a war that has really gotten us nowhere. IMO our priorities as a country just aren't ordered correctly. There's a lot of things we need to change about our society as Americans and healthcare is just one of em.

BTW Michael Moore is one biased POS. I'm usually on the side of what he's trying to prove but his approach makes the argument lack credibility.
Spyder
QUOTE (Fitz @ Mar 23 2010, 02:49 AM) *
They stopped in 2000, but lets see where you were ranked.

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America

Even my parents Chile in a 3rd world country was rated higher. Though even do a search now Spyder, France is considered the best in the world. I also see what you are saying, but you are slightly going off. I think what you are saying is that you have the best doctors in the world. I'm not disputing that, I am talking about the system and not the doctors. Yes, people go to the USA to see the best, and have life changing operations. But the average joe is going to send someone there to find the best for a broken leg, a broken arm or to get treated for the common flu.
For the most common illnesses, and injuries, just an average doctor will do, and a specialist is not required. The best healthcare system is about being realistic and practical. Nice point about the Canadian president going over the USA for a [b]life changing operation. Though for some reason, I don't think little Roberto from down the street is going to see that doctor for his broken leg when he came off the bike.
I am talking about the best system for the average joe, not the best doctors in the world that make life changing operations for the rich.[/b]

laugh.gif

Fitz, you have to consider the source and their agenda...lol...that ranking is so ridiculous that it's funny.

The bold section pretty much shows me that you don't know how American healthcare works. Anybody can get that same surgery from that same doctor. ANYBODY. Rich man to average Joe...even a bum can walk into any emergency room in the country and receive treatment.

This whole thing is about power and money. The government wants The People to become dependent on it. They want us to go to them for every aspect of our lives, and in return they'll raise the fuck out of our taxes. That's the crux of it. Not about "improving" a healthcare system that is already at the cutting edge. They want us to NEED them.
Snoop
QUOTE (Spyder @ Mar 23 2010, 01:58 PM) *
The bold section pretty much shows me that you don't know how American healthcare works. Anybody can get that same surgery from that same doctor. ANYBODY. Rich man to average Joe...even a bum can walk into any emergency room in the country and receive treatment.

I highly doubt that. I mean where do you draw that conclusion? You can't tell me that just anyone can get treatment from "the same doctor", especially if "that same doctor" is of a private practice. Hell, even the average Joe or bum can't get access to this "cutting edge healthcare" technology in public services. There's been plenty of time where I've seen people turned down or significantly mistreated because they had no insurance. And even if they did get some treatment, it was tacked on with a HUGE medical bill, especially if it was an emergency room visit. Sure that may not matter to a "bum", but bills and debts mean a whole lot to the average Joe.

QUOTE
This whole thing is about power and money. The government wants The People to become dependent on it. They want us to go to them for every aspect of our lives, and in return they'll raise the fuck out of our taxes. That's the crux of it. Not about "improving" a healthcare system that is already at the cutting edge. They want us to NEED them.

I can agree with this, to some degree. I mean I thought the option of private insurance was still there so people wouldn't theoretically be dependent on the government. Either way, something needs to be done about our healthcare system because as "advanced" as it may be, too many people are denied access to even simple procedures.
Method
Vasectomy under ObamaCare...

BGv2.0
QUOTE (Spyder @ Mar 22 2010, 09:12 PM) *
I'm going to stop and dwell on that last one for a bit...in case anyone missed it...The US Government is forcing its citizens to buy something. How we spend our money is no longer our decision. If I wanted to pay the doctor with cash out of pocket in an as needed basis...like I did until last year, then I would be breaking the law.

You have the RIGHT, to go and buy whatever you want. You don't have to ask permission. You don't have to wait for your grades to go back up. You just do it whenever you feel like it. It's these liberties that make being a responsible adult so great.

The Death of The American Dream....this current class of college graduates was polled with the question, "Do you think that you will become more successful than your parents?" For the first time EVER, the majority answered "NO".

the US has THE BEST healthcare system in the world. It is the complete opposite of what you've heard.

I'm sorry to doubt your claim, but America is on the cutting edge of EVERY FUCKING MEDICAL PROCEDURE. When the shit hits the fan, there is not another place that you'd rather be.



Well, then I would ask you....do you have a problem with states forcing you to carry car insurance? Or Banks forcing you to have home insurance on a mortgage loan?

Same principal.

"You just do it whenever you feel like it. It's these liberties that make being a responsible adult so great.".....

but I'd have to disagree with you in regard to how the avergae American uses these liberties....the fact that 75% or more Americans spend more than they earn shows that the attitude you speak of....is doing more to hurt our economy than all of the BS politicians and currupt banks could ever do.

During this whole economic crisis.....that's been the one single thing that has blown my mind....both Democrats and Republicans alike stick their head in the sand on that issue, blame the banks....blame Wall Street.....blame each others party.....

Where was the blame for the American people?

I don't blame a bank that offers some schmuck a 150,000 loan when the guy himself is in control of if it takes it or not.....

Your trust in the American people to govern their own spending is misplaced.

NOW....that in no way says I'm in favor of the government controlling each individual.....but the idea you propose....sorry....but you give the average American a LOT more fiscal credit than I ever would. Give most Americans a doller bill....by the end of the day they will owe somebody.


AND....I see nothing wrong with people being realistic in regard to the "American Dream"....When was that whole idea of each generation doing better than their parents did for them....EVER going to stop?

I mean....I get that line of thought in regard to those from say...the 1800's up to the 50's.....but at some point....how can you really say your life was SO BAD...that you had to provide better for the next generation....

I think that can be linked to the point I made before....

As if today's kid's whose soccar mom carted them to school in an SUV....retired home to the 2000 sq, ft. brick home in the nice suburb of Pine Wood Lakes....whose parents came home from their jobs that their colleges loans got them....

Does the answer..."no"...really surprise you?


In regard to what you say about the American Health care system....that's a little misleading....sure in a research sense we are always on the "cutting edge"....but do we all have access to that cutting edge capability?

You and I both know the answer to that...

And what Fitz has heard is not a total farce as you would have him believe....

If what you say is so true....please explain to me, why when I walked into a Dentists office in Mexico.....there was not one single Mexican in the waiting room....guess what else....

there was not one single Canadian either.

I'll let you guess the nationality.
Spyder
QUOTE (Snoop @ Mar 23 2010, 09:29 AM) *
I highly doubt that. I mean where do you draw that conclusion? You can't tell me that just anyone can get treatment from "the same doctor", especially if "that same doctor" is of a private practice.

Yes, you can. Under our current healthcare system, there are things called second opinions. If you don't like what one doctor has to say, you can go to as many other doctors as you want. Granted, different doctors accept different types of insurance...HMO, PPO...but those same insurance options are available to every fucking citizen.

QUOTE (BGv2.0 @ Mar 23 2010, 02:22 PM) *
Well, then I would ask you....do you have a problem with states forcing you to carry car insurance? Or Banks forcing you to have home insurance on a mortgage loan?

Same principal.

No it's not...lol...no one made you buy a car. No one made you buy a home, but you have to pay to play.

It's completely different.
Spyder
QUOTE (BGv2.0 @ Mar 23 2010, 02:22 PM) *
Well, then I would ask you....do you have a problem with states forcing you to carry car insurance? Or Banks forcing you to have home insurance on a mortgage loan?

Same principal.

"You just do it whenever you feel like it. It's these liberties that make being a responsible adult so great.".....

but I'd have to disagree with you in regard to how the avergae American uses these liberties....the fact that 75% or more Americans spend more than they earn shows that the attitude you speak of....is doing more to hurt our economy than all of the BS politicians and currupt banks could ever do.

During this whole economic crisis.....that's been the one single thing that has blown my mind....both Democrats and Republicans alike stick their head in the sand on that issue, blame the banks....blame Wall Street.....blame each others party.....

Where was the blame for the American people?

I don't blame a bank that offers some schmuck a 150,000 loan when the guy himself is in control of if it takes it or not.....

Your trust in the American people to govern their own spending is misplaced.

NOW....that in no way says I'm in favor of the government controlling each individual.....but the idea you propose....sorry....but you give the average American a LOT more fiscal credit than I ever would. Give most Americans a doller bill....by the end of the day they will owe somebody.


AND....I see nothing wrong with people being realistic in regard to the "American Dream"....When was that whole idea of each generation doing better than their parents did for them....EVER going to stop?

I mean....I get that line of thought in regard to those from say...the 1800's up to the 50's.....but at some point....how can you really say your life was SO BAD...that you had to provide better for the next generation....

I think that can be linked to the point I made before....

As if today's kid's whose soccar mom carted them to school in an SUV....retired home to the 2000 sq, ft. brick home in the nice suburb of Pine Wood Lakes....whose parents came home from their jobs that their colleges loans got them....

Does the answer..."no"...really surprise you?


In regard to what you say about the American Health care system....that's a little misleading....sure in a research sense we are always on the "cutting edge"....but do we all have access to that cutting edge capability?

You and I both know the answer to that...

And what Fitz has heard is not a total farce as you would have him believe....

If what you say is so true....please explain to me, why when I walked into a Dentists office in Mexico.....there was not one single Mexican in the waiting room....guess what else....

there was not one single Canadian either.

I'll let you guess the nationality.

Sorry, I didn't read the rest of your post until now...you said a lot in it and were talking about a few different things.

1) Explain to me how people spending copious amounts of money is a bad thing for the economy.
2) If you don't want to control your own spending, who do you want to control that for you?
3) How does a bunch of Americans looking to score pain killers in Mexico have anything to do with this discussion?
Snoop
QUOTE (Spyder @ Mar 23 2010, 08:11 PM) *
Yes, you can. Under our current healthcare system, there are things called second opinions. If you don't like what one doctor has to say, you can go to as many other doctors as you want. Granted, different doctors accept different types of insurance...HMO, PPO...but those same insurance options are available to every fucking citizen.

Which means it disproves your previous claim that "anybody can get that same surgery from that same doctor," if certain doctors turn away certain types of insurance or the uninsured.
Spyder
QUOTE (Snoop @ Mar 23 2010, 03:33 PM) *
Which means it disproves your previous claim that "anybody can get that same surgery from that same doctor," if certain doctors turn away certain types of insurance or the uninsured.

Have you ever gone to the doctor? lol

They don't turn it away, they just have certain types that they accept. Depending on who your insurance carrier is, they will have a list of doctors in your area that you can choose from. If there is a certain doctor that you want to see, then you have to get whatever coverage he/she accepts. It's pretty simple.

So yes, ANYBODY can get the same surgery from the same doctor.
Snoop
QUOTE (Spyder @ Mar 23 2010, 08:45 PM) *
Have you ever gone to the doctor? lol

They don't turn it away, they just have certain types that they accept. Depending on who your insurance carrier is, they will have a list of doctors in your area that you can choose from. If there is a certain doctor that you want to see, then you have to get whatever coverage he/she accepts. It's pretty simple.

So yes, ANYBODY can get the same surgery from the same doctor.

Of course they don't turn you away but realistically, not everyone can pay the out-of-pocket fee they would charge you if your insurance, or lack of insurance, would not help pay. That's like saying a homeless person would have the same likelihood as receiving a heart transplant as the affluent in Beverly Hills. Sure, theoretically the possibility exists, but only if you can pay for it. It's the pricetag that's the real separator, not the conditions.

And actually no, if you're insurance carrier has a list of doctors in the area you can choose from, then you most certainly cannot receive the same surgery from the SAME doctor if the lists are going to be different depending on the health insurance.

I see what you're trying to get at, but I think that sentence was just poorly worded and too open for criticism.
BGv2.0
QUOTE (Spyder @ Mar 23 2010, 02:23 PM) *
Yes, you can. Under our current healthcare system, there are things called second opinions. If you don't like what one doctor has to say, you can go to as many other doctors as you want. Granted, different doctors accept different types of insurance...HMO, PPO...but those same insurance options are available to every fucking citizen.

Sorry, I didn't read the rest of your post until now...you said a lot in it and were talking about a few different things.

1) Explain to me how people spending copious amounts of money is a bad thing for the economy.
2) If you don't want to control your own spending, who do you want to control that for you?
3) How does a bunch of Americans looking to score pain killers in Mexico have anything to do with this discussion?



How do you suggest a person get a second opinion when they can't even afford a first opinion? What world do you live in?

What about a poor elderly person that is not a bum...and is not quite 65 to qualify for Medicare and lives on a fixed income..please tell me how THAT person walks into a Dr.'s office and affords the bill? And before you ..start on all the qualifiers...I'll stop you at the pass....the man is not a drug addict....is not on welfare....works a job at Wal-Mart that does not pay him benefits.....he does not smoke, trys to stay healthy.....

How does this man, who works...contributes to society....pay the Dr. bill? AND....God forbid he have blood work done,as well as medication prescribed....

I want you to give me a break down on how...with the current system...this man handles the situation.

1.) Spending money you don't have will ALWAYS be a "bad thing"....why can you not apply that same anti-goverment, spending too much etc. to the average American citizen? The typical American has ZERO resolve and even less resonsibility and restraint to live within their means...like I said it's the reason 75% or more of Americans are in debt. When the mjority of your citizens are in the red....you see good in that? I don't.

2.) I'm not talking about me. I live within my means and have mastered the art of making and spending.....I'm very secure in my ability to be fiscally responsible. I control my own financial standing...for the most part.

3.) They were not there to "score" pain killers....stop trying to paint it as such. They were there to get dental work done, these were not drug addicted emo guys with needles hanging out of their arms as you want to make it seem.....they were old snow birds, middle aged white males....basic Americans.

I suppose you are going to argue against what I saw with my own eyes? AND...what I myself have resorted to. Back before my parents were on Medicare, in an effort to save on their scripts my Dad and I would travel to Mexico and buy a year's worth of prescription drugs in an effort to save a considerable amount of money....it had nothing to do with any of us being a bum that did not work.....being addicted to drugs.....it came down to the basic cost.

The EXACT same drugs we bought there were TONS cheaper than the drugs provided by your loved American Health care system...and that was with insurance and a Medicare co-pay....and the pills worked the same...

You really live in a world of delusion if you somehow think our current system of helath care is befitting of the status most hold in relation to the idea of AMERICA being the best place in the world!
Vega
Actually with insurance, there is a list of doctors that accept your insurance but you can go see any doctor or go to any hospital. If you choose a doctor that isn't on the list, you simply pay more money. Many insurance plans will cover a certain amount the same way they do with doctors on the list, but they'll cover less. It's called in-network and out-of-network. When I didn't have health insurance it cost me about $130 to see my doctor. With insurance it costs me a flat $30 copay. When I didn't have health insurance, I was more apt not to see the doctor when I got sick. Instead I waited it out to see if I got better. I also didn't go for annual check-ups because I was healthy and didn't feel anything was wrong with me. And I didn't want to spend $130 for nothing. That's how many Americans live with no health insurance. The problem with this is when they do get really ill and have to go to the hospital, all of a sudden they are having to pay thousands of dollars. With everyone on health care, more people will go for annual checkups and illnesses that could lead to huge hospital bills are many times easily prevented with a prescription.

This is one of the many good things about this health care bill that will save hospitals and tax-payers money in the long run. There are many other great things about this bill. Sure some people will pay more taxes but nothing that will hurt anyone's bottom line. For instance, people making over $200,000 will have to pay taxes on capital gains and other income streams that weren't taxed before. But we're talking about $600 in taxes on a $100,000 profit. Basically nothing.

Vega Sinclair, Health Insurance Advisor
JD
The best way to fuck up an already fucked up system even worse, is to let the government run it - and that applies to either party being in the majority.
Snoop
QUOTE (Fitz @ Mar 23 2010, 10:57 PM) *
Hasn't ruined our health care system.

He might be talking specifically about the US government, which could be true in that case.
STEVENSKI
How anyone can be against a government providing the basics of western life is just beyond me.
Snoop
QUOTE (Fitz @ Mar 23 2010, 10:28 PM) *
Ok, I will just try stay out of it because I just don't know how bad your government is, lol.

IMO we have our priorities backwards. I'll just leave it at that.

QUOTE
But snoop, can you clarify on what I said in my post above that? What Spyder is saying and what you and BG were saying earlier is totally the opposite, so I am not sure on how it was.

Well to use your example, "Could an average Joe receive the same operation from the same doctor that the Canadian president did?" My guess is "no", because the bill would be extraordinarily unaffordable to the average citizen. I mean if they wanted to inherit a bill that would put them in debt for the rest of their life, would the hospital turn them down? I don't know. I think Spyder's argument is that they wouldn't, which for him (and correct me if I'm wrong Spyder) means equal access to healthcare for all. But IMO it would be a stupid, unrealistic choice to adopt a bill of that magnitude if you can't afford it.

I think that's the whole debate here. Making healthcare more realistically available to more people.
Spyder
QUOTE (BGv2.0 @ Mar 23 2010, 05:08 PM) *
How do you suggest a person get a second opinion when they can't even afford a first opinion? What world do you live in?

What about a poor elderly person that is not a bum...and is not quite 65 to qualify for Medicare and lives on a fixed income..please tell me how THAT person walks into a Dr.'s office and affords the bill? And before you ..start on all the qualifiers...I'll stop you at the pass....the man is not a drug addict....is not on welfare....works a job at Wal-Mart that does not pay him benefits.....he does not smoke, trys to stay healthy.....

How does this man, who works...contributes to society....pay the Dr. bill? AND....God forbid he have blood work done,as well as medication prescribed....

I want you to give me a break down on how...with the current system...this man handles the situation.

1.) Spending money you don't have will ALWAYS be a "bad thing"....why can you not apply that same anti-goverment, spending too much etc. to the average American citizen? The typical American has ZERO resolve and even less resonsibility and restraint to live within their means...like I said it's the reason 75% or more of Americans are in debt. When the mjority of your citizens are in the red....you see good in that? I don't.

2.) I'm not talking about me. I live within my means and have mastered the art of making and spending.....I'm very secure in my ability to be fiscally responsible. I control my own financial standing...for the most part.

3.) They were not there to "score" pain killers....stop trying to paint it as such. They were there to get dental work done, these were not drug addicted emo guys with needles hanging out of their arms as you want to make it seem.....they were old snow birds, middle aged white males....basic Americans.

I suppose you are going to argue against what I saw with my own eyes? AND...what I myself have resorted to. Back before my parents were on Medicare, in an effort to save on their scripts my Dad and I would travel to Mexico and buy a year's worth of prescription drugs in an effort to save a considerable amount of money....it had nothing to do with any of us being a bum that did not work.....being addicted to drugs.....it came down to the basic cost.

The EXACT same drugs we bought there were TONS cheaper than the drugs provided by your loved American Health care system...and that was with insurance and a Medicare co-pay....and the pills worked the same...

You really live in a world of delusion if you somehow think our current system of helath care is befitting of the status most hold in relation to the idea of AMERICA being the best place in the world!

Wal-Mart offers benefits to its employees.

QUOTE (Vega @ Mar 23 2010, 05:38 PM) *
Actually with insurance, there is a list of doctors that accept your insurance but you can go see any doctor or go to any hospital. If you choose a doctor that isn't on the list, you simply pay more money. Many insurance plans will cover a certain amount the same way they do with doctors on the list, but they'll cover less. It's called in-network and out-of-network. When I didn't have health insurance it cost me about $130 to see my doctor. With insurance it costs me a flat $30 copay. When I didn't have health insurance, I was more apt not to see the doctor when I got sick. Instead I waited it out to see if I got better. I also didn't go for annual check-ups because I was healthy and didn't feel anything was wrong with me. And I didn't want to spend $130 for nothing. That's how many Americans live with no health insurance. The problem with this is when they do get really ill and have to go to the hospital, all of a sudden they are having to pay thousands of dollars. With everyone on health care, more people will go for annual checkups and illnesses that could lead to huge hospital bills are many times easily prevented with a prescription.

This is one of the many good things about this health care bill that will save hospitals and tax-payers money in the long run. There are many other great things about this bill. Sure some people will pay more taxes but nothing that will hurt anyone's bottom line. For instance, people making over $200,000 will have to pay taxes on capital gains and other income streams that weren't taxed before. But we're talking about $600 in taxes on a $100,000 profit. Basically nothing.

I was the same way. I had the ability to get insurance, but I was young and healthy and didn't feel that I needed it.

The bill itself is full of bought votes, and bullshit. The problem with taxing the rich is that the rich run the private sector. To think that having them pay for everybody, and that common goods and services will remain the same price is a little silly.

The only thing good to come out of this bill, is that the Liberal agenda has been exposed to the American People.

QUOTE (Fitz @ Mar 23 2010, 05:56 PM) *
Ok. I am getting confused.

Spyder is saying anybody can go in and get life changing surgery, the same doctor that treated the Canadian president. So it is very affordable for the average joe?

With the previous system, how much was it, or what was involved to go to a doctor for a check up, go get treated for a broken leg and so on? Could any bum afford medicals? Because that was all I used to hear, how it was expensive and not everybody could get treatment. Even snoop and BG mentioned that. But Spyder is saying that any bum can go get heart surgery, just any guy off the street. So I am a little confused.

Anyone can walk into any emergency room in the country and receive treatment...even bums without insurance. That is the law of the land.
Spyder
QUOTE (Snoop @ Mar 23 2010, 06:44 PM) *
IMO we have our priorities backwards. I'll just leave it at that.


Well to use your example, "Could an average Joe receive the same operation from the same doctor that the Canadian president did?" My guess is "no", because the bill would be extraordinarily unaffordable to the average citizen. I mean if they wanted to inherit a bill that would put them in debt for the rest of their life, would the hospital turn them down? I don't know. I think Spyder's argument is that they wouldn't, which for him (and correct me if I'm wrong Spyder) means equal access to healthcare for all. But IMO it would be a stupid, unrealistic choice to adopt a bill of that magnitude if you can't afford it.

I think that's the whole debate here. Making healthcare more realistically available to more people.

That's the point Snoop, anytime they're asked how we are going to pay for it they change the subject. They are trying to use slight of hand to fool the American People, but we're a lot smarter than that.

Except for BGv2.0...he needs the federal government to tell him how to balance his checkbook.
Snoop
QUOTE (Spyder @ Mar 24 2010, 12:31 AM) *
That's the point Snoop, anytime they're asked how we are going to pay for it they change the subject. They are trying to use slight of hand to fool the American People, but we're a lot smarter than that.

Except for BGv2.0...he needs the federal government to tell him how to balance his checkbook.

LOL. I meant the medical bill for the average Joe in the example I was using, but I see your point. Realistic financing of the initiative needs to be taken into consideration.
Spyder
QUOTE (Fitz @ Mar 23 2010, 09:24 PM) *
That's what I thought as well. He is arguing that anybody can go get an operation which is true. Just like anybody can go get themselves a credit card, a car or something they can't really afford.
Here, I couldn't think of a better system. They can take some of my tax money and make it affordable for everyone in this country. Here we can go to the doctor, they bulk bill and that's that. Small price to pay for health.

You get what you pay for Fitz. friends.gif
JD
QUOTE (Fitz @ Mar 23 2010, 05:57 PM) *
Hasn't ruined our health care system.


Perhaps you actually still have the best of the best in government...our healthcare system was not ideal and did need some help, but what it will get is the opposite of help with the government getting too involved. We basically have the worst of the worst...the truly talented, bright and motivated go out and start or run companies now, they don't run for office or look to become an elected official.

As far as the Australian Healthcare system goes...I have no experience using it, so I could not really comment intelligently on it.
Spyder
QUOTE (JD @ Mar 23 2010, 09:37 PM) *
Perhaps you actually still have the best of the best in government...our healthcare system was not ideal and did need some help, but what it will get is the opposite of help with the government getting too involved. We basically have the worst of the worst...the truly talented, bright and motivated go out and start or run companies now, they don't run for office or look to become an elected official.

That's the truth. Our politicians are either really stupid, or really corrupt...or both. It's horrible.
Snoop
QUOTE (Spyder @ Mar 24 2010, 02:47 AM) *
That's the truth. Our politicians are either really stupid, or really corrupt...or both. It's horrible.

It's both.
BGv2.0
QUOTE (Spyder @ Mar 23 2010, 07:31 PM) *
Wal-Mart offers benefits to its employees.

That's the point Snoop, anytime they're asked how we are going to pay for it they change the subject. They are trying to use slight of hand to fool the American People, but we're a lot smarter than that.

Except for BGv2.0...he needs the federal government to tell him how to balance his checkbook.



Kind of like anytime somebody asks you to address a direct question...

I love how you totally ignored my question to you in my last post.

AND....have you ever actually worked retail? Sure Wal-Mart "offers" benefits....and stay with them for 10 years working 39 hours per week to avoid hitting 40 to where they legally have to provide you with those benefits...they might actually give them to you.

My checkbook is fine...better than yours I'd bet.

There is no need to start with the petty swipes simply because we disagree with this bill. Don't pull that card....I see it all too often in political discussions.

Stick to what we are talking about....

Now...if you would, please explain how the man in the situation above takes care of himself with the system the way it is...was...

Spyder
The only petty swipe I saw was you calling me deluded.

Poor elderly man, that's not 65, who works part-time at Wal-mart, and contributes to society? Do you need me to point out the contradictions? lol

You can make up any situation you want to support your stance, but that's when talking about this becomes "who can make up shit to win an argument?"...I'm not interested in playing that game.

The point of this discussion is that you think that people are too stupid to balance their own lives, so you want Government to do it for them...I strongly disagree with that mentality.
KookedKrack
I find it funny how me and BGv2.0 have had issues in the past but politically we share the same views.



and he is from texas shok.gif
Spyder
QUOTE (KookedKrack @ Mar 24 2010, 09:58 AM) *
I find it funny how me and BGv2.0 have had issues in the past but politically we share the same views.

I think that comment alone will change his mind more than anything that I could possibly say. laugh.gif
Snoop
QUOTE (Spyder @ Mar 24 2010, 02:19 PM) *
The point of this discussion is that you think that people are too stupid to balance their own lives, so you want Government to do it for them...I strongly disagree with that mentality.

I think you're focusing on one part of the bigger picture. The real debate should be able whether or not America needs a healthcare reform. I think they do. This might not be the way to go about it, but a change is needed either way. It feels like you believe the current system works just fine, which I vehemently disagree with.

But in regards to spending, I have to side with BG on this one. While you yourself might be very sensible and responsible with your spending, others are not. Exorbitant spending on goods that do not support our own economy and the irresponsible amount of lending by corporate banks is what got us into the recession in the first place. Turning to a government controlled state isn't the solution, but a change in our spending habits is still necessary.
BGv2.0
QUOTE (Spyder @ Mar 24 2010, 08:19 AM) *
The only petty swipe I saw was you calling me deluded.

Poor elderly man, that's not 65, who works part-time at Wal-mart, and contributes to society? Do you need me to point out the contradictions? lol

You can make up any situation you want to support your stance, but that's when talking about this becomes "who can make up shit to win an argument?"...I'm not interested in playing that game.

The point of this discussion is that you think that people are too stupid to balance their own lives, so you want Government to do it for them...I strongly disagree with that mentality.


"Poor elderly man, that's not 65, who works part-time at Wal-mart, and contributes to society? Do you need me to point out the contradictions? lol "

Do you also toss out dollar bills at Parkinson sufferers as well....that statement alone should tell this board the type of person you are. So what....a person of older age, that attempts to work a less than steller job is not contributing?

Sure....I'd LOVE for you to point out "contridictions".


It's not that you are not interested in playing the game....you are not interested in addressing the question posed to you...I wonder why that is? Could it be that the person I described happens to fall through the cracks of your beloved, supposed, perfect American Health care System?

And again....here you go putting words into my mouth (another tactic I've seen hard core rights use)....I NEVER once stated that I want the government to balence anybody's life....I simply stated that the typical state of the average American does not support your idea that they are perfect idea's of financial stability as you would present them to be.

as a matter of fact if you go back I think my actual post said something along the line of "now that in no way means I want the government to tell me how I can spend my money"

BUT.....like everything else....you just ignore the aspects that make you uncomfortable....and make shit up....

And get back on track....the point of this discussion is health care....not people's financial standing.

I'd suggest you actually try to argue your stance because people that read this thread will clearly see you side stepping shit and making shit up without actually discussing the issue. That does nothing to make them believe how GREAT our health care system is.
Spyder
QUOTE (Snoop @ Mar 24 2010, 11:54 AM) *
I think you're focusing on one part of the bigger picture. The real debate should be able whether or not America needs a healthcare reform. I think they do. This might not be the way to go about it, but a change is needed either way. It feels like you believe the current system works just fine, which I vehemently disagree with.

But in regards to spending, I have to side with BG on this one. While you yourself might be very sensible and responsible with your spending, others are not. Exorbitant spending on goods that do not support our own economy and the irresponsible amount of lending by corporate banks is what got us into the recession in the first place. Turning to a government controlled state isn't the solution, but a change in our spending habits is still necessary.

Our current system is the best in the world, but it could be better. I'm not against reform, I'm for the CORRECT reform. This is not it. Nobody believes that this is it. Not even the idiots who passed it. They wanted to pass something, just so it didn't look like they couldn't get shit accomplished. That's a bad move for them, and WORSE for the country.

They are playing politics with OUR livelihoods. I'm sorry, but I vehemently disagree with that.

As for spending...who cares if the asshole across the street can't balance his checkbook. That's HIS business. Not yours, and CERTAINLY not the Governments. He made that money, and can do with it whatever he wants. Shit, he could set it on fire in his backyard for all we care. That's the definition of Liberty my friend.
Snoop
QUOTE (Spyder @ Mar 24 2010, 05:23 PM) *
Our current system is the best in the world, but it could be better. I'm not against reform, I'm for the CORRECT reform. This is not it. Nobody believes that this is it. Not even the idiots who passed it. They wanted to pass something, just so it didn't look like they couldn't get shit accomplished. That's a bad move for them, and WORSE for the country.

If you're talking about technological advancement, then yes, I think you have a strong case. But if you're talking about equal accessibility to those advanced procedures, then no, I think ours is one of the most poorly organized in the world.

QUOTE
They are playing politics with OUR livelihoods. I'm sorry, but I vehemently disagree with that.

As for spending...who cares if the asshole across the street can't balance his checkbook. That's HIS business. Not yours, and CERTAINLY not the Governments. He made that money, and can do with it whatever he wants. Shit, he could set it on fire in his backyard for all we care. That's the definition of Liberty my friend.

Unfortunately for the ones who know how to spend sensibly, like us, it does matter how the asshole down the street spends their money. I mean BG was right in saying that the financial crisis happened because a whole bunch of unrealistic assholes adopted loans they couldn't afford and the equally assholish banks gave it to them. When everyone realized those loans couldn't be paid back, well, the whole thing crashed.

Nowadays our money is being directed towards corporate interests through buying useless shit we generally don't need just to make some affluent asshole richer. In the end, that money doesn't get reinvested into our economy and that affects OUR livelihood i.e. jobs, social security, taxes, etc., which in turn affects OUR liberty. I'm all for liberty and freedom, but ironically enough, sometimes too much individual freedom can be an impediment on the freedom we have now as a whole.
Method
QUOTE
I'm for the CORRECT reform. This is not it. Nobody believes that this is it. Not even the idiots who passed it. They wanted to pass something, just so it didn't look like they couldn't get shit accomplished. That's a bad move for them, and WORSE for the country.


Thank you.

The bill that was just RAMMED through government is NOT the bill that Obama touted during his presidential campaign. That's just the reality of it.
Snoop
QUOTE (Method @ Mar 24 2010, 05:50 PM) *
Thank you.

The bill that was just RAMMED through government is NOT the bill that Obama touted during his presidential campaign. That's just the reality of it.

I've heard it's almost an entirely new bill compared to the first one proposed in December. I also heard most of the changes were made to satisfy Republican demands. It's crazy how polarized this country is when it comes to these things.
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