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The CEO
I will publish the 2 best replies in The Spotlight of the next Edition...


Question: Who was the most overrated fighter of the last decade?


Looking for strong and fairly concise explanations.....



P.S.~ Remember. This is a virtually uncensored column...so feel free to express yourself like James Toney does...lol
TRU
By far... Shane Mosley.

No defense.

Overrated fighting ability.

He isn't the same fighter ever since he took a hellacious beatdown by Vernon Forrest in their first go around. He's scared to exchange and that's why he always looks to hold at anytime he can.

For such an "exciting" fighter he's never been in a "Fight of the Year" or even FOTY candidate by all accounts.

Inside fighting 101 is James Toney. Mosley is not an inside fighter and is marginal on the outside.

Holding masks alot of flaws. He clinched Miguel Cotto 95 times in their fight to smokescreen the fact that the Puerto Rican was out-fighting and out-boxing his ass the whole night.

If a ref actually did their job in a Mosley fight... you might see a similar situation to the Andre Berto-Luis Collazo fight where the physically gifted guy is outclassed by the technically better boxer.

That is The Boxing TRUTH!!!!
alaganza
Jermaine Taylor used to have an effective jab and pretty decent workrate. After the guy mixed it up with Bernard you can make the argument that he was never the same.

The jab went away and he seemed to have problems defending right hands. There was also the issue with his stamina that came into play in a lot of his big fights. When he starts fading he fades fast.

Taylor had controversial wins over Bernard to win/defend his title. But then he had terrible showings against smaller guys moving up in weight to challenge for his title. (Wright, Ouma, Spinks)

He went from Champ to shot fairly quickly.


Not to mention he also got plastered by Pavlik, Froch, and Abraham most recently.

I would also like to nominate Jeff Lacy.
Lil-lightsout
QUOTE (TRU @ Apr 6 2010, 04:01 PM) *
By far... Shane Mosley.

No defense.

Overrated fighting ability.

He isn't the same fighter ever since he took a hellacious beatdown by Vernon Forrest in their first go around. He's scared to exchange and that's why he always looks to hold at anytime he can.

For such an "exciting" fighter he's never been in a "Fight of the Year" or even FOTY candidate by all accounts.

Inside fighting 101 is James Toney. Mosley is not an inside fighter and is marginal on the outside.

Holding masks alot of flaws. He clinched Miguel Cotto 95 times in their fight to smokescreen the fact that the Puerto Rican was out-fighting and out-boxing his ass the whole night.

If a ref actually did their job in a Mosley fight... you might see a similar situation to the Andre Berto-Luis Collazo fight where the physically gifted guy is outclassed by the technically better boxer.

That is The Boxing TRUTH!!!!

laugh.gif

King Eugene
Joe Calzaghe...nuff said!
Method
Roy Jones Jr.

his opposition was carefully hand selected to include "the butcher", "the baker" and "the candlestick maker", and then he moved up to face the biggest farce the heavyweight division has ever seen in John Ruiz.In the last decade, whenever he stepped up to face LEGITIMATE competition, he got WORKED.
King Eugene
QUOTE (Method @ Apr 6 2010, 04:23 PM) *
Roy Jones Jr.

his opposition was carefully hand selected to include "the butcher", "the baker" and "the candlestick maker", and then he moved up to face the biggest farce the heavyweight division has ever seen in John Ruiz.In the last decade, whenever he stepped up to face LEGITIMATE competition, he got WORKED.

Ummm I wasn't aware that he was rated so high in THIS decade. He was the man of the 90's. I guess fighting and beating all of your mandatories isn't the thing to do now days. I guess he should have been fighting the Melvin Wynns, Segundo Mercado, William Bo James, Carl Daniels, and Morrade Hakkar during his career. dntknw.gif
alaganza
QUOTE (Method @ Apr 6 2010, 05:23 PM) *
Roy Jones Jr.

his opposition was carefully hand selected to include "the butcher", "the baker" and "the candlestick maker", and then he moved up to face the biggest farce the heavyweight division has ever seen in John Ruiz.In the last decade, whenever he stepped up to face LEGITIMATE competition, he got WORKED.



Good point
Big Slim Sweet
Jeff Lacy's a good one. He was climbing pretty high on a lot of guy's lists in 04-05 off a string of banging out a bunch of over the hill B and C level guys - who for the most part (everyone really except Scott Pemberton) were all giving him tough fights, particularly Vanderpool and Shieka. But Lacy was exciting and getting those KO's so we tended to overlook his struggles. Plus he had a great attitude that everyone pretty much loved. He was willing to fight anyone, anywhere and he had a physique like Mike Tyson to boot. Lacy was a considerable favorite when he went to England to take on the undefeated hometown cocksucker Calzaghe, and the beating he took was absolutely epic. In hindsight his career was over by the 2nd round. His soul was eviscerated. It was sad to see. His subsequent comeback fights were each less impressive than the last. He got lucky to earn a win (or was it a draw, I can't remember) against Epifanio Mendoza a clubbing journeyman he admitted after the fight he had to resort to football tackling to survive against. Then he got beat down by Jermain Taylor, becoming the only guy Taylor managed to beat impressively in 5 years. Then he got crushed and stopped by the shottest of the shot, and we all musta forgot for one fight how ruined Roy Jones was himself, since many were giving him a chance against Calzaghe based off that performance. Lacy is an American Olympian and a fairly big name and a guy most can't help but root for. The truth however is his career success was primarily the resilt of his being managed very nicely early on and nothing more. He was never somebody capable of beating a good fighter.
Romulus9
Strictly in terms of being overrated and overvalued within a specific time frame... it's Oscar de la Hoya.

This is, in fact, regarding the decade from 2000-2009. Where are the signature wins that would merit the attention, or even legacy, that he seems to garner in the mainstream media and amongst casual fans?

In the mid-to-late '90s, there were big, significant wins to point to, even when those wins were controversial: Pernell Whitaker, Ike Quartey, Rafael Ruelas, John-John Molina, Genaro Hernandez, Jesse James Leija, Migiuel Angel Gonzalez, Julio Cesar Chavez, and so on. The wins were there.

In the last decade, Oscar banked on the results of previous years but never showed the same level of success. Moderate wins were there but nothing to justify woefully overpriced pay-per-views, insane fight purses, and the incredible preferential treatment that he was ultimately granted until his 2008 retirement. The losses to the big names were there: Mosley (twice), Mayweather, Pacquiao, Hopkins. That doesn't even mention the gift victory over Felix Sturm. But the wins? His best win of the decade was likely the 11th round stoppage of Fernando Vargas. Names like Yory Boy Campas, Arturo Gatti, and Ricardo Mayorga are recognizable but to little to lend additional credibility to the decade's worth of work.

Oscar is a no doubt Hall of Famer and definitely made significant contributions to his support. His negative impact, personal conduct, and continuing problematic behavior as a promoter notwithstanding, I think his legacy in the ring is one that is solid and should be appreciated, if for no other reason than his willingness to fight the best no matter what. That attitude amongst boxing's biggest stars would be of great benefit to the sport. However, the level of his legacy is greatly skewed when looked upon critically, especially in the period from 2000-2008.
King Eugene
QUOTE (Sweetness @ Apr 6 2010, 05:13 PM) *
Jeff Lacy's a good one. He was climbing pretty high on a lot of guy's lists in 04-05 off a string of banging out a bunch of over the hill B and C level guys - who for the most part (everyone really except Scott Pemberton) were all giving him tough fights, particularly Vanderpool and Shieka. But Lacy was exciting and getting those KO's so we tended to overlook his struggles. Plus he had a great attitude that everyone pretty much loved. He was willing to fight anyone, anywhere and he had a physique like Mike Tyson to boot. Lacy was a considerable favorite when he went to England to take on the undefeated hometown cocksucker Calzaghe, and the beating he took was absolutely epic. In hindsight his career was over by the 2nd round. His soul was eviscerated. It was sad to see. His subsequent comeback fights were each less impressive than the last. He got lucky to earn a win (or was it a draw, I can't remember) against Epifanio Mendoza a clubbing journeyman he admitted after the fight he had to resort to football tackling to survive against. Then he got beat down by Jermain Taylor, becoming the only guy Taylor managed to beat impressively in 5 years. Then he got crushed and stopped by the shottest of the shot, and we all musta forgot for one fight how ruined Roy Jones was himself, since many were giving him a chance against Calzaghe based off that performance. Lacy is an American Olympian and a fairly big name and a guy most can't help but root for. The truth however is his career success was primarily the resilt of his being managed very nicely early on and nothing more. He was never somebody capable of beating a good fighter.

His lack of defense and non-improvement over the years pretty much ruined him.
D-MARV
The Most Overrated? hmmmmm....


MANNY PACQUIAO.

Manny is a great fighter, no doubt about that. But let's keep in mind that many in the boxing world, including fans, reporters, and writers rank Manny among the greatest of all time... LMAO.... That is plain LUDICROUS.

Let's look over Manny's resume.

Manny had two life and death wars with Juan Manuel Marquez (whom I and many others think got the best of Manny in both fights). Now Marquez is a great fighter but he's no where near an all time fighter and he gave Manny boxing lessons in both fights.

Let's move on to Eric Morales. A faded Eric Morales (after grueling wars with Barrera) was also able to take Pac-Man to school in their first bout. Although Manny was competitive, I thought Eric controlled the fight from start to end. Eric kept Manny at bay with his jab and and brutally countered Manny at will. Manny had his moments in the fight but it was a thorough ass whooping handed out by "El Terrible". Sure Manny beat Morales the second time around but only after Raheem literally OWNED Morales. Not to mention sucking down every last ounce of weight that Morales had left. I remember Morales looking like Ghandi at the Weigh in.

One of Manny's best wins came against Marco Antonio Barrera. Manny beat down the "FADED" legend in 2003 but let's face it... Marco already had 2 wars with Morales under his belt and had seen his best days.

In between his fights with faded legends, Manny fought average competition... He took on the likes of Larios (old and worn), Battery (who?), Velazquez (old and worn), and Solis (very green and outmatched).

The so-called "Legendary" run started with David Diaz. Diaz was a very average fighter who was coming off two NARROW wins over the completely shot and fat Eric Morales and Ramon Montano (I had to boxrec this guy). It was Manny's first fight at the higher weight so I gave him a pass... But Hardly the stuff of Legends. A True Legend and All Time Great would have went after the number 1 man in the division (Like Hopkins Vs Tarver or Leonard Vs Hagler).

Manny received his biggest pay day in fighting Skeletor... I mean De La Hoya. Oscar shrunk down to 145 and only gained two pounds by fight time. I guess the I.V marks on his arm were Manny's motivation. Then there was Ricky Hatton... The same Ricky Hatton that was considered Overrated and a bum the minute he signed to fight Floyd Mayweather. Manny feasted on Floyd's leftovers and got 4 times the credit that Floyd received (hmmmm). Now there's Miguel Cotto. NOW THERE"S A QUALITY WIN... Except for two things... 1 being, hmmmm, YOU GUESSED IT! HE WAS WEIGHT DRAINED! 2 being that he was beaten within an inch of his life a few fights before hand. Good win for Manny, but the stuff of Legends? I'm not to sure about that one. Now there's the EVER So DANGEROUS Joshua "The Mighty" Clottey! LOL.... can you say SET UP!!!!! Josh was paid to stand in the ring and let Manny pound away at his gloves. Hey Josh.... We'll give you some extra change and you'll get MAJOR props by NOT getting KO'd by Manny Pacquaio.


Now... Manny is a GREAT fighter! BUT is he top 10 or even top 15 for that matter? NO! Manny is not even the best in this generation... PLEASE... shiftyeyes_anim.gif
Jack 1000
QUOTE (alaganza @ Apr 6 2010, 04:58 PM) *
Good point


Cosign!

It's a shame, because Jones probably had the best athletic ability and since Leonard. But he fought too many soft touches to be considered a great fighter, or either fighters who were too old, or fighters whom he made sure did not pose a threat to him.

My Current Choice For The Most Over-Rated Fighter: Floyd Mayweather Jr.

The best fighter who uses "Most Money-Least Risk" "Fighting boxers one-two divisions smaller than he is. Making sure a fighter does not carry a big punch so he doesn't get hurt before deciding on a fight, is Floyd Mayweather Jr." Floyd makes sure that he has at least 75% if the conditions in his favor before agreeing to any fight. Like a prime Jones, his boxing abilities are superb, but there is just as much criticism for Floyd fighting boxers smaller than he, as there is praise for his natural boxing abilities.

The last fighter that fought Floyd in his natural weight class was Castillo. Floyd is very fortunate that he is able to get these mega bucks paydays while fighting smaller fighters.

Jack
thehype
QUOTE (Jack 1000 @ Apr 6 2010, 07:06 PM) *
Cosign!

It's a shame, because Jones probably had the best athletic ability and since Leonard. But he fought too many soft touches to be considered a great fighter, or either fighters who were too old, or fighters whom he made sure did not pose a threat to him.

My Current Choice For The Most Over-Rated Fighter: Floyd Mayweather Jr.

The best fighter who uses "Most Money-Least Risk" "Fighting boxers one-two divisions smaller than he is. Making sure a fighter does not carry a big punch so he doesn't get hurt before deciding on a fight, is Floyd Mayweather Jr." Floyd makes sure that he has at least 75% if the conditions in his favor before agreeing to any fight. Like a prime Jones, his boxing abilities are superb, but there is just as much criticism for Floyd fighting boxers smaller than he, as there is praise for his natural boxing abilities.

The last fighter that fought Floyd in his natural weight class was Castillo. Floyd is very fortunate that he is able to get these mega bucks paydays while fighting smaller fighters.

Jack


I might seriously have to consider revoking your admin rights for this post.

laugh.gif

I mean...seriously Jack...your "criticism" is only fueled by your hatred of the personality he puts on display, because honestly, that sounded like it came from a Pactard.

Just look at some of these statements:

QUOTE (Jack 1000 @ Apr 6 2010, 07:06 PM) *
The best fighter who uses "Most Money-Least Risk" "Fighting boxers one-two divisions smaller than he is. Making sure a fighter does not carry a big punch so he doesn't get hurt before deciding on a fight, is Floyd Mayweather Jr." Floyd makes sure that he has at least 75% if the conditions in his favor before agreeing to any fight. Like a prime Jones, his boxing abilities are superb, but there is just as much criticism for Floyd fighting boxers smaller than he, as there is praise for his natural boxing abilities.



Are you sure you're talking about Floyd? Sounds more like you're talking about Oscar De La Hoya or the Klitschkos or even Bernard Hopkins. Shit, what fighter DOESN'T look for the most money and the least risk? Do you think Vitali Klitschko's selection of Sosnowski is a LEAST MONEY-HIGH RISK fight? Was Jones really a HIGH RISK fight for Hopkins? Hell, was Ornelas for that matter? Even Manny Pacquiao...do you REALLY believe that he decided to pass on Yuri Foreman and an uprecedented 8TH WORLD TITLE IN 8 DIVISIONS simply because he felt Joshua Clottey was the HIGH RISK? LOL. Man, I thought you understood the sport better than that. I mean, come on, Floyd moved up to 154 to fight De La Hoya...don't make it sound like that wasn't a risk. Floyd fought the undefeated Ricky Hatton...don't make it sound like that wasn't a risk (if it was a risk for Pacquiao, it should be a risk for Floyd too). Hell, 3-4 years ago, you and a lot of people were talking about how Floyd isn't a natural welterweight...he's too small...blah, blah, blah...now all of a sudden he's a guy fighting boxers who are "one-two divisions smaller than he is"? Man, cut it out! That's not Floyd Mayweather. He fought one guy...ONE GUY...Marquez, in a freakin' tune-up after a 16-month layoff. That's the ONLY guy that he's fought smaller than him. And don't even try to cry about Ricky Fatton's ass either...YOU guys wanted the fight and there were no complaints at all when Hatton moved up to fight him. Come to think of it, Floyd was the one moving up in weight before it got so popular. He moved up to 135 and fought Castillo...a HIGH RISK fight. In fact, he MOVED UP to 140 AND 147...so why you think he's been fighting all of these guys that are smaller than him is totally beyond me. I assume that's the hatred of his personality slipping out of you because if you're just looking at the facts, that's simply not true. Like I said, the ONLY guy you can point to is Marquez, but man, that fight was no different than Hopkins handpicking Ornelas for a tune-up, so the cut the man some slack. Now he's fighting Mosley, which I'm sure a lot of you probably agree is a HIGH RISK fight...so how are you going to PRAISE Bernard Hopkins for fighting a tune-up in Ornelas and then a shot fighter in Jones, but shit on Floyd for coming back after a 16-month layoff to tune-up against a top 3 P4P fighter and then take on the man at welterweight? I mean, SERIOULSY??? Man...Jack...say it ain't so.

"just as much criticism for Floyd fighting boxers smaller than he, as there is praise for his natural boxing abilities."

Whaaaaaat?????

Man...now it's become CLEAR to me that you're DEFINITELY talking about Bernard Hopkins. I mean, after all, when he's got Felix Trinidad, Oscar De La Hoya, Winky Wright, Joe Calzaghe and Kelly Pavlik, it's pretty obvious that HE'S the one "Fighting boxers one-two divisions smaller than he is."

laugh.gif

I hate to slap around one of my favorite admins, but damn...the pimp hand had to come out strong on that one.

SHHHHHHHMACK!

You speaketh blasphemy!

laugh.gif

laugh.gif
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (thehype @ Apr 7 2010, 06:16 AM) *
Floyd fought the undefeated Ricky Hatton...don't make it sound like that wasn't a risk (if it was a risk for Pacquiao, it should be a risk for Floyd too).


A undefeated Ricky Hatton who had previously shown he had NO business at 147 whatsoever. Unless you think the 147lb Hatton was the best version of Hatton that is.......


QUOTE (thehype @ Apr 7 2010, 06:16 AM) *
Floyd was the one moving up in weight before it got so popular. He moved up to 135 and fought Castillo...a HIGH RISK fight. In fact, he MOVED UP to 140 AND 147...


I will give credit for his gifts against Castillo. Who did he fight at 140 that was any risk whatsoever? Who did he fight at 147 that was any risk? No one.

salvador
QUOTE (D-MARV @ Apr 6 2010, 05:59 PM) *
The Most Overrated? hmmmmm....


MANNY PACQUIAO.

Manny is a great fighter, no doubt about that. But let's keep in mind that many in the boxing world, including fans, reporters, and writers rank Manny among the greatest of all time... LMAO.... That is plain LUDICROUS.

Now... Manny is a GREAT fighter! BUT is he top 10 or even top 15 for that matter? NO! Manny is not even the best in this generation... PLEASE... shiftyeyes_anim.gif


IF Pac is clean then what he's done already makes him as accomplished as any fighter around today including Floyd/Roy/Bernard - anyone. He fights EVERYONE and he's always willing to stick his chin out for the ko. I still think Floyd takes him, but Floyd has never taken the risks to be considered an ATG, Floyd's just a really really really great athlete.

I've said before that it's virtually impossible for me to believe he could move up from 106 to 147 and walk through those shots from Cotto unless he's on something. But I obviously have no proof, and if he's clean then he deserves consideration on any ATG list - he at least deserves to be a part of the debate.

Ricky Hatton, on the other hand, sucks from every angle and his only claim to fame was a consequence of his being allowed to outwrestle Tszyu. If Hatton was any other color other than white nobody would have ever heard of him.
ROLL DEEP
Man, what's with the Jones hate?!


People either think he could've beaten Ali, Holmes, Lewis and Holyfield on the same night or think he's the worst champion of all time.


Pffffft.



As a Hopkins fan, you can't bash Jones' resume without being a little hypocritical. They both fought rubbish mandatories and somehow manage to miss big fights when they should've happened.


Jones is ONE OF THE BEST EVER. Point blank. Not THE best, but up there in the mix.




STEVENSKI
QUOTE (ROLL DEEP @ Apr 7 2010, 01:19 PM) *
Man, what's with the Jones hate?!


People either think he could've beaten Ali, Holmes, Lewis and Holyfield on the same night or think he's the worst champion of all time.


Pffffft.



As a Hopkins fan, you can't bash Jones' resume without being a little hypocritical. They both fought rubbish mandatories and somehow manage to miss big fights when they should've happened.


Jones is ONE OF THE BEST EVER. Point blank. Not THE best, but up there in the mix.


You know damm well whats up Mr Deep with the Jones hate. Jones did unbelievable things in the ring & would have been a lot better had he learnt the fundamentals of the craft to fall back on when his natural assets started to fail. He didn't & therefore provided me with great enjoyment by being knocked out a few times.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
[quote name='D-MARV' date='Apr 6 2010, 06:59 PM' post='479823']
The Most Overrated? hmmmmm....


MANNY PACQUIAO.

Manny is a great fighter, no doubt about that. But let's keep in mind that many in the boxing world, including fans, reporters, and writers rank Manny among the greatest of all time... LMAO.... That is plain LUDICROUS.

Let's look over Manny's resume.

Manny had two life and death wars with Juan Manuel Marquez (whom I and many others think got the best of Manny in both fights). Now Marquez is a great fighter but he's no where near an all time fighter and he gave Manny boxing lessons in both fights.

Let's move on to Eric Morales. A faded Eric Morales (after grueling wars with Barrera) was also able to take Pac-Man to school in their first bout. Although Manny was competitive, I thought Eric controlled the fight from start to end. Eric kept Manny at bay with his jab and and brutally countered Manny at will. Manny had his moments in the fight but it was a thorough ass whooping handed out by "El Terrible". Sure Manny beat Morales the second time around but only after Raheem literally OWNED Morales. Not to mention sucking down every last ounce of weight that Morales had left. I remember Morales looking like Ghandi at the Weigh in.

One of Manny's best wins came against Marco Antonio Barrera. Manny beat down the "FADED" legend in 2003 but let's face it... Marco already had 2 wars with Morales under his belt and had seen his best days.

In between his fights with faded legends, Manny fought average competition... He took on the likes of Larios (old and worn), Battery (who?), Velazquez (old and worn), and Solis (very green and outmatched).

The so-called "Legendary" run started with David Diaz. Diaz was a very average fighter who was coming off two NARROW wins over the completely shot and fat Eric Morales and Ramon Montano (I had to boxrec this guy). It was Manny's first fight at the higher weight so I gave him a pass... But Hardly the stuff of Legends. A True Legend and All Time Great would have went after the number 1 man in the division (Like Hopkins Vs Tarver or Leonard Vs Hagler).

Manny received his biggest pay day in fighting Skeletor... I mean De La Hoya. Oscar shrunk down to 145 and only gained two pounds by fight time. I guess the I.V marks on his arm were Manny's motivation. Then there was Ricky Hatton... The same Ricky Hatton that was considered Overrated and a bum the minute he signed to fight Floyd Mayweather. Manny feasted on Floyd's leftovers and got 4 times the credit that Floyd received (hmmmm). Now there's Miguel Cotto. NOW THERE"S A QUALITY WIN... Except for two things... 1 being, hmmmm, YOU GUESSED IT! HE WAS WEIGHT DRAINED! 2 being that he was beaten within an inch of his life a few fights before hand. Good win for Manny, but the stuff of Legends? I'm not to sure about that one. Now there's the EVER So DANGEROUS Joshua "The Mighty" Clottey! LOL.... can you say SET UP!!!!! Josh was paid to stand in the ring and let Manny pound away at his gloves. Hey Josh.... We'll give you some extra change and you'll get MAJOR props by NOT getting KO'd by Manny Pacquaio.


Now... Manny is a GREAT fighter! BUT is he top 10 or even top 15 for that matter? NO! Manny is not even the best in this generation... PLEASE... shiftyeyes_anim.gif

/quote]

First off who are these people that rank Manny GOAT? Sure many feel that Manny is a first ballot hall of famer but beyond that, I don't think MOST fans, press etc are saying he is anything else, so get off that partiular horse.

Onto the fights:

If the scoring had been done CORRECTLY then Manny would've won the first JMM fight.

How do we know that it was a faded Eric Morales in the first fight? Boxer's can literally change overnight. The Morales that fought Pac in that first fight was hardly faded. And FFS Raheem didn't 'own' Morales. Ss for the last weigh in, go and check, MOST of Morales'weigh-ins. He ALWAYS looks like Ghandi.

Most didn't consider Barrerra faded in their first fight, in fact he was heavy favourite to win.

OK say Manny takes some easy wins. Then figts De La Hoya at 147 when he had never fought above 135. So DLH doesn't have the best camp (coz he didn't have Senior there with him) and ends up needling himself. 2 things. Why is this Manny's problem? And how could Manny know that he would end up in that state?

As for Cotto, he came in weight drained? He came in under ONE pound than he had for the fight with Clottey. Yeah sure so much had been taken out of him in training blah blah blah.

Oh and as for Ricky Hatton, he faced him in a division where Hatton is most comfortable and never ben beaten, 140 pounds. Yeah 2 round destruction of a guy unbeaten in that weight class. cool.

Yeah hard to see how he gets OVERRATED.



lloyd mayflower
QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ Apr 7 2010, 02:05 PM) *
Yeah hard to see how he gets OVERRATED.


I sort of agree with most of you and sort of dont. That 1 pound for Cotto could have made a huge difference, as was stated before the fight by the guys here who fight and understand about having to suck down weight. (I dont so I bowed to their knowledge)

I kinda agree with you about Manny not being overrated. But only amongst decent fans. You must surely agree that Manny is GROSSLY overrated by the casual fan. Some of the shit iv heard talked by people I know who take an occasional interest in the big fights has been fuckin ridiculous, and unfortunately, these are the people that a lot of the press pander to because they are the majority. I'v heard it stated that theres no way in hell Floyd will beat Manny. That sort of shit is perpetuated by people buying into misinformed hype and in Britain at least, boxing getting so few column inches that the writers report only the easy, obvious stuff.
ROLL DEEP
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Apr 7 2010, 09:25 AM) *
You know damm well whats up Mr Deep with the Jones hate. Jones did unbelievable things in the ring & would have been a lot better had he learnt the fundamentals of the craft to fall back on when his natural assets started to fail. He didn't & therefore provided me with great enjoyment by being knocked out a few times.


Yeah, but you can't voice an objective opinion when your pupils have been riddled with the hate virus as yours have, Ste.


I agree that he didn't have the boxing fundamentals of the more normal, orthadox fighters and yeah, I agree that when they eroded he fell rapidly, but at his best when his assets were there, he was a hell of a fighter. Up there in the mix with the other GOATs.


As with a lot of fighters, his nut huggers go over board and his 'haters' discredit him too much, but in keeping with this thread, there have been other fighters more overrated then Jones as he actually was pretty fucking good.

Nay_Sayer
None of you guys have been paying attention during these last ten years.

The most overrated fighter of the last decade?

Klitschko, either one.

Never have I seen a couple of guys get more mileage out of losing to an ATG fighter (Vitali) and feasting on a string of BUMs, STIFFs, Tomato Cans, No Hopers, and OLE men (Both Klitschkos). And what's with the lack of rematches? Byrd never got his rematch (with Vitali). Sanders never got his rematch. Brewster was allowed to get his rematch only after having *eye surgery* and having been off for nearly two years.

The Klistchko sisters are the biggest joke in boxing, period. Even HBO, who created the Klitschko joke in the first place, has jumped off the band wagon.
Jack 1000
QUOTE (thehype @ Apr 7 2010, 01:16 AM) *
I might seriously have to consider revoking your admin rights for this post.

laugh.gif

I mean...seriously Jack...your "criticism" is only fueled by your hatred of the personality he puts on display, because honestly, that sounded like it came from a Pactard.

Just look at some of these statements:




Are you sure you're talking about Floyd? Sounds more like you're talking about Oscar De La Hoya or the Klitschkos or even Bernard Hopkins. Shit, what fighter DOESN'T look for the most money and the least risk? Do you think Vitali Klitschko's selection of Sosnowski is a LEAST MONEY-HIGH RISK fight? Was Jones really a HIGH RISK fight for Hopkins? Hell, was Ornelas for that matter? Even Manny Pacquiao...do you REALLY believe that he decided to pass on Yuri Foreman and an uprecedented 8TH WORLD TITLE IN 8 DIVISIONS simply because he felt Joshua Clottey was the HIGH RISK? LOL. Man, I thought you understood the sport better than that. I mean, come on, Floyd moved up to 154 to fight De La Hoya...don't make it sound like that wasn't a risk. Floyd fought the undefeated Ricky Hatton...don't make it sound like that wasn't a risk (if it was a risk for Pacquiao, it should be a risk for Floyd too). Hell, 3-4 years ago, you and a lot of people were talking about how Floyd isn't a natural welterweight...he's too small...blah, blah, blah...now all of a sudden he's a guy fighting boxers who are "one-two divisions smaller than he is"? Man, cut it out! That's not Floyd Mayweather. He fought one guy...ONE GUY...Marquez, in a freakin' tune-up after a 16-month layoff. That's the ONLY guy that he's fought smaller than him. And don't even try to cry about Ricky Fatton's ass either...YOU guys wanted the fight and there were no complaints at all when Hatton moved up to fight him. Come to think of it, Floyd was the one moving up in weight before it got so popular. He moved up to 135 and fought Castillo...a HIGH RISK fight. In fact, he MOVED UP to 140 AND 147...so why you think he's been fighting all of these guys that are smaller than him is totally beyond me. I assume that's the hatred of his personality slipping out of you because if you're just looking at the facts, that's simply not true. Like I said, the ONLY guy you can point to is Marquez, but man, that fight was no different than Hopkins handpicking Ornelas for a tune-up, so the cut the man some slack. Now he's fighting Mosley, which I'm sure a lot of you probably agree is a HIGH RISK fight...so how are you going to PRAISE Bernard Hopkins for fighting a tune-up in Ornelas and then a shot fighter in Jones, but shit on Floyd for coming back after a 16-month layoff to tune-up against a top 3 P4P fighter and then take on the man at welterweight? I mean, SERIOULSY??? Man...Jack...say it ain't so.

"just as much criticism for Floyd fighting boxers smaller than he, as there is praise for his natural boxing abilities."

Whaaaaaat?????

Man...now it's become CLEAR to me that you're DEFINITELY talking about Bernard Hopkins. I mean, after all, when he's got Felix Trinidad, Oscar De La Hoya, Winky Wright, Joe Calzaghe and Kelly Pavlik, it's pretty obvious that HE'S the one "Fighting boxers one-two divisions smaller than he is."

laugh.gif

I hate to slap around one of my favorite admins, but damn...the pimp hand had to come out strong on that one.

SHHHHHHHMACK!

You speaketh blasphemy!

laugh.gif

laugh.gif


LOL!!!! laugh.gif

Wow!!!! Shit that was SOME Rebuttal post!!!!!!

THIS THREAD'S ALIVE!!!!!! ALIVE!!!!!!!!

Jack
Method
Funny, Cuz Hopkins weighed in less than Trinidad, he weighed in at 157 for DLH, Wright walks around at 190, and Calzaghe was at ZERO weight/size disadvantage. Calzaghe had been DYING to move up to Lt Hvy. Thats no secret. The weights Hopkins came in at vs Trinidad, DLH, if he was so much bigger, surely coming it at 157 1/2 vs Trinidad would have drained the FUCK out of him, as all you were proclaiming before the fight. And he was walking around at 154 the week of the DLH fight, so again, if he was SOOO much bigger, you'd think walking around at 154 would have KILLED him.

PS - ADD the Klitchko's to the Most Overrated. THEY SUCK and they fight NOBODIES! That game of Patty-Cake baby brother played against that one Russian should have warranted his license be revoked.

PPS - A lot of those bums Jones fight he CHOSE to fight. They were NOT mandatories.
BGv2.0
Because his BS charade as a HW is getting close to a decade and by the front page of this very website every other day, which seems to show that there is no end in sight....I'm going to say James Toney!

NOW...I am in no way going to say that James Toney as a whole is overrated, we all are very aware of his accomplishments in the lighter divisions. My questioning of JT's greatness is with his career as a heavyweight.

People in the boxing community and on this site attempt to give James Toney credit as being the sole fighter than can take out the Klits and unify the HW titles......BASED ON WHAT?

This is a CLEAR case of people being blinded by a fighters former luster. Any rational person that has watched James as a HW should not be impressed....and for sure should not see him as the potential to end the dredful rule of the Twin Champs.

YET....James Toney is consistantly mentioned as the fighter to beat one or both Klits as well as Haye.

When people come to this notion....I think they are seeing fond memories of the dramatic one punch KO of Prince Charles Williams in the 12th round.....YET...they are totally forgetting much of what we have all actually seen at HW.

Here is a rundown of JT's HW career.

It started off GREAT....with a beautiful TKO of a well past his prime...yet still very able Evander Holyfield. I have to admit, this fight had me believing as well....never had I seen such a profound body attack...nor had Evander...things looked good.

Then it all went downhill.

He won a BORING UD over the little known Ridell Booker.

Recieved a UD win over the often sited WORST Champ in Ruiz, but due to steroids being found in his blood stream this fight was changed to a NC and Toney was stripped of his HW title. No matter if you think we could have won with or without drugs is not the issue. The man tested positive and was stripped and the W was taken away.

Then came the BORING UD win over the lackluster Dominick Guinn

Then came the draw with Rahman with their second fight earning JT yet another NC.

Between those fights were the two back to back losses to Sam Peter, a decent but far from spectacular HW fighter himself.

He then gets a BORING UD against Danny Bachelder, a guy that was beaten by Lance Whitiker, Lamon Brewster and a thrid guy since that fight. Bacheldor is 3-7 in last 10 fights including the Toney loss.

He then gets a controversial win over Fres Oquendo, which many believed he actually lost.

He then polishes this turd of a career even more...with FINALLY a KO win over Matthew Greer...a guy that has lost his last 3 fights, including a loss to Minto and Kevin Johnson.

So in retrospect....as a HW...James Toney's carrer record looks like this.

6-2-1-2 with 2 of those wins by KO.

If people want to believe that record is worthy of praising this guy and listing him as the last hope to rid the division of the Klits.....more power to them....but I myself can see past all of the mouthing and BS for what it is....a desparate attempt to milk $$ from a career LONG over.

In a prior thread I stated this and I'm quite proud to type it yet again. If this keeps up the one single thing that will be worthy of being at the Boxing HOF long after Toney passes will be his vocal chords. Put 'em in a big ole glass with formaldehyde and let people take it all in.

If JT's fists flew as fast as his mouth has the last 7 years.....he would be a legend in the HW division.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (lloyd mayflower @ Apr 7 2010, 10:16 AM) *
I sort of agree with most of you and sort of dont. That 1 pound for Cotto could have made a huge difference, as was stated before the fight by the guys here who fight and understand about having to suck down weight. (I dont so I bowed to their knowledge)

I kinda agree with you about Manny not being overrated. But only amongst decent fans. You must surely agree that Manny is GROSSLY overrated by the casual fan. Some of the shit iv heard talked by people I know who take an occasional interest in the big fights has been fuckin ridiculous, and unfortunately, these are the people that a lot of the press pander to because they are the majority. I'v heard it stated that theres no way in hell Floyd will beat Manny. That sort of shit is perpetuated by people buying into misinformed hype and in Britain at least, boxing getting so few column inches that the writers report only the easy, obvious stuff.


Yeah but I just laugh under my breath at casual fans and then wait for there to be a big fight and take all their money when they bet heavy with me on the MEDIA favourite. laugh.gif Trust me Lloyd once you've taken their money and then bitch slapped them in front of their lady they soon learn to shut up quick.
Big Slim Sweet
LMAO. Guys like Pacquiao, Mayweather, Jones and Hopkins are NOT the most overrated fighters of the last decade. These guys are all great, great fighters.

Come on, it's GOT TO BE JEFF LACY. (by the way, I may have been wrong about Roy's fight with him coming before Calzaghe. Too lazy to look it up)

RICKY HATTON is a good one too. He has one win of real note, against Tszyu, and the conditions of that fight were awfully dubious. Plus it was Tszyu's last fight, so you have to wonder how much he really had left mentally. Anybody questioning Pacman's wins over Morales or Barrera has to doubly question Hatton's win over KT.

ZAB JUDAH is another one. This guy still gets a little shine, and his career is fucking garbage when you look at it. One good win. Cory Spinks, who he also lost to.

The KLITSCHKO'S haven't beat anybody but in their defense, there hasn't really been anybody for them to beat.
Spyder
I say it's Jeff Lacy. Even as an amateur, the guy couldn't fight someone that moved. Hell, Richard fucking Grant boxed the shit out of him on the lawn of the Playboy Mansion. That was the moment that everyone at the pro ranks knew the book on Jeff Lacy. It was only a matter of time until his management decided to cash out and feed him to the wolves.

Calzaghe, Taylor, Jones...career.
Keith
CEO,

Is it ok to email or pm you our response?

What's the deadline?
Spyder
QUOTE (Keith @ Apr 7 2010, 06:47 PM) *
CEO,

Is it ok to email or pm you our response?

What's the deadline?

Look at Keith trying to stand out from the crowd...lol...Mr. "I don't want to get lost in the shuffle".

laugh.gif
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (Spyder @ Apr 8 2010, 12:21 AM) *
Look at Keith trying to stand out from the crowd...lol...Mr. "I don't want to get lost in the shuffle".

laugh.gif


Big time browntonguer. I am disowning him.
pcraw
QUOTE (BGv2.0 @ Apr 7 2010, 03:04 PM) *
Because his BS charade as a HW is getting close to a decade and by the front page of this very website every other day, which seems to show that there is no end in sight....I'm going to say James Toney!

NOW...I am in no way going to say that James Toney as a whole is overrated, we all are very aware of his accomplishments in the lighter divisions. My questioning of JT's greatness is with his career as a heavyweight.

People in the boxing community and on this site attempt to give James Toney credit as being the sole fighter than can take out the Klits and unify the HW titles......BASED ON WHAT?

This is a CLEAR case of people being blinded by a fighters former luster. Any rational person that has watched James as a HW should not be impressed....and for sure should not see him as the potential to end the dredful rule of the Twin Champs.

YET....James Toney is consistantly mentioned as the fighter to beat one or both Klits as well as Haye.

When people come to this notion....I think they are seeing fond memories of the dramatic one punch KO of Prince Charles Williams in the 12th round.....YET...they are totally forgetting much of what we have all actually seen at HW.

Here is a rundown of JT's HW career.

It started off GREAT....with a beautiful TKO of a well past his prime...yet still very able Evander Holyfield. I have to admit, this fight had me believing as well....never had I seen such a profound body attack...nor had Evander...things looked good.

Then it all went downhill.

He won a BORING UD over the little known Ridell Booker.

Recieved a UD win over the often sited WORST Champ in Ruiz, but due to steroids being found in his blood stream this fight was changed to a NC and Toney was stripped of his HW title. No matter if you think we could have won with or without drugs is not the issue. The man tested positive and was stripped and the W was taken away.

Then came the BORING UD win over the lackluster Dominick Guinn

Then came the draw with Rahman with their second fight earning JT yet another NC.

Between those fights were the two back to back losses to Sam Peter, a decent but far from spectacular HW fighter himself.

He then gets a BORING UD against Danny Bachelder, a guy that was beaten by Lance Whitiker, Lamon Brewster and a thrid guy since that fight. Bacheldor is 3-7 in last 10 fights including the Toney loss.

He then gets a controversial win over Fres Oquendo, which many believed he actually lost.

He then polishes this turd of a career even more...with FINALLY a KO win over Matthew Greer...a guy that has lost his last 3 fights, including a loss to Minto and Kevin Johnson.

So in retrospect....as a HW...James Toney's carrer record looks like this.

6-2-1-2 with 2 of those wins by KO.

If people want to believe that record is worthy of praising this guy and listing him as the last hope to rid the division of the Klits.....more power to them....but I myself can see past all of the mouthing and BS for what it is....a desparate attempt to milk $$ from a career LONG over.

In a prior thread I stated this and I'm quite proud to type it yet again. If this keeps up the one single thing that will be worthy of being at the Boxing HOF long after Toney passes will be his vocal chords. Put 'em in a big ole glass with formaldehyde and let people take it all in.

If JT's fists flew as fast as his mouth has the last 7 years.....he would be a legend in the HW division.


First and foremost people on this website don't think Toney is the sole fighter to take the Klitschko's out, but is the sole fighter (and I actually put David Tua in there) that won't eat one Klitschko right hand and shut the fuck down. I mean what the hell did Eddie Chambers prove against Klitshcko, what did Arreola prove..how about QueenPin? The only thing they proved is that this new set of American heavyweights are straight up bitches; no other way to sugar coat it. I've seen Toney come in terrible shape and still fight a hard 12 to where these guys claim to be in the best shape mentally and physically and then check out of the fight with the first hard punch thrown. Hell Klitschko's could batter Toney around for 12 rounds all I care, but you obviously have more faith in them beating Toney than they do. I would much rather James Toney name on my resume than fucking Albert Sosnowski.

The only guy of note that Johnson had beaten to get a shot was a 50 year old Bruce Seldon. Johnson was a terrible ESPN fighter, but he gets a pass for whatever reason according to your argument. Chris Arreola's claim to a heavyweight tile shot was a huge win over Jameel McCline; hell Travis fucking Walker almost knocked Arreola out. So why are we talking about heavyweights earning shots? I would prefer to see Toney in these fights just to stir up the division. All of these fucking nice guys is more aggravating than Toney talking shit. Since we're putting records out here Ruiz was 3-3 in his last 6 going into the Haye fight with his biggest win coming over who??? You guessed it...Jameel McCline. Damn does Jameel get a cut of these guys purse for being the guy to beat to get a title shot? Hmmmm.

You say, don't count Toney's win to Ruiz because it was taken away, fair enough, but why are we saying, "Most people thought Oquendo won?" Hey Toney got the W so don't count that fight. 6-2-1-2 for a former middleweight fighting at heavyweight and no one has stopped him ain't bad opposed to what he's up against. Hell if you don't want to see Toney fight the Klitscho's for a title you gotta at least think guy's like Arreola, Chambers and QueenPin should have to go through him to get a title shot.

As to the question posed I would say Zab Judah or Sam Peter. I'm so sick of hearing, "If Zab gets his shit together he would blah blah blah..." I say Peter because I thought so many Americans hung their hat on him being the last hope and he did the unthinkable. He quit on the stool. For me that is a no no and he has never been in the light again. He's been on a crusade to wreck journeymen since the Klitschko loss; with the exception of Chambers.
Method
Im w PCraw, I would MUCH rather see Toney, win or lose, get a shot at the Klits as opposed to those other motherfucking losers that the Klits seem to pull out of pubs.
The CEO
Lots of good AND unexpected responses, guys...thank you.

I don't know what to do...I might have to make this a Special 3 Edition question, posting 2 per piece...

All I ask is that some of you trim your answers down a bit...some are too lengthy for a column like mine....just go back and edit them if you would/can please...

Deadline will be tomorrow night...I will try to submit something to Hype by the end of the weekend to be shown on Monday....


@Keith...I would rather you post it in this thread this time...
thehype
Honestly, I'm not even sure why I'm bothering to reply to STEVENSKI, an admitted Floyd Hater, because all logic goes out the window when you're talking to someone like that. HOWEVER....

QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Apr 7 2010, 03:36 AM) *
A undefeated Ricky Hatton who had previously shown he had NO business at 147 whatsoever. Unless you think the 147lb Hatton was the best version of Hatton that is.......


I think the 147lb. Hatton was pretty much the same as the 140lb. Hatton. He didn't struggle with Collazo because of the weight...he struggled with Collazo because Hatton just isn't that great to begin with...never has been! HOWEVER, that being said, it's the fight that EVERYONE wanted...well just about everyone anyway. Personally, I figured it would be EASY WORK for Floyd and I really could've cared less if he fought him....but people like YOU, maybe not you in particular, but people similar to you were claiming that Floyd ducked him at 140, so ask and ye shall receive. Now, do I thnk it was great "challenge" for Floyd? No...I don't...but if someone is going to point to how good Manny Pacquiao is and talk about his destruction of Ricky Hatton as an example, then how can you NOT give Floyd the same credit for beating the same guy and beating him first? But regardless, the point is, don't make it sound like Ricky Hatton was some super featherweight that Floyd handpicked. It's a fight that the public DEMANDED, as evidence by the 1.5 million PPV buys, so it's a fight that they got! That whole post was addressing Jack's comments about Floyd having this reputation of fighting smaller fighters and that's simply not the case.

QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Apr 7 2010, 03:36 AM) *
I will give credit for his gifts against Castillo. Who did he fight at 140 that was any risk whatsoever? Who did he fight at 147 that was any risk? No one.


Who was at 140 that was any risk to begin with? Let's take a look. Gatti was the WBC champ. Vivian Harris was the WBA champ. Kostya Tszyu was the IBF champ. Cotto was the WBO champ.

Kostya Tszyu was with Showtime, so that fight was difficult to make to begin with. Please don't forget that up until that point, Floyd had yet to even headline a PPV, and as far as I know, the only fight that HBO and Showtime did a collaboration on was Tyson vs. Lewis...a HUGE PPV event...so don't make it sound like that was a case of Floyd "ducking" KT. Tszyu would later lose to little known Ricky Hatton, but even when Floyd asked to fight him, Ricky Hatton, his trainer, his dad and his entire team all said that they weren't ready to fight Floyd Mayweather. I'm sure you remember all that smack that Hatton was talking about coming to America to take over...he showed up to watch Mayweather vs. Gatti talking about wanting to fight the winner and then after the fight, all the talk stoped immediately and he ended up fighting Carlos "Golem" Maussa instead. Do your research!

Vivian Harris and his dumb ass was actually next in line to fight Floyd after the Gatti fight, which is why he was fighting Carlos Maussa on the undercard...and then he lost, so that fight went right out the window.

Miguel Cotto was NEVER an option as long as Floyd Mayweather was still a Top Rank fighter. Bob Arum would not allow the fight to happen...he said it time and time and TIME AGAIN. In fact...and I quote:

"I think it's too soon...Obviously in a year from now, whether it's at 147 or 140, that will be the Leonard-Duran fight of our generation. But it's not ready yet, we've got to build Cotto up more." - Bob Arum on a possible Mayweather vs. Cotto bout, June 29, 2005

Now that was in June of 2005...a few months later, Floyd moved up to 147, so how the hell was he supposed to fight Cotto if their mutual promoter is saying that Cotto isn't ready? And come to think of it, who the hell was Cotto fighting at 140 that was a risk? Kelson Pinto?

So who exactly did you want him to fight? Who was the big risk? Carlos Maussa?

laugh.gif

You can do the same research and discover the same information at 147. The whole reason why he moved up was to fight the undisputed welterweight champion at the time...Zab Judah. Prior to Judah choking against Baldomir, it was a fight that EVERYBODY was wanting to see. The only reason why he even bothered to fight Sharmba Mitchell was because it was his first fight at 147 and a tune-up for the much bigger fight against Judah (Mitchell being a southpaw like Judah). He fought Mitchell in November of 2005 and the fight with Zab was essentially a done deal (Zab was signing the damn contract for the fight while he was down in Florida training for Baldomir). 2 months later, in January of 2006, Zab's stupid ass lost to Baldomir. So you're telling me Floyd should have scrapped the Judah fight and fought a bigger "risk"...okay....but who? At the time, Margarito wasn't even an option because, again, Floyd was a Top Rank fighter and the fight that his own promoter, Bob Arum, chose to make was the Judah fight. Not Margarito, not Clottey, but Judah. It was only AFTER that fight, when Mayweather bought out his contract from Arum, did Margarito, Clottey AND Cotto even become an option, but at that point, Floyd was on some "FUCK YOU BOB ARUM" shit...and I can't say that I blame him. I'm not even sure why you would blame him either. If you're working at a restaurant and you quit because you can't stand your boss, you don't show up the next day to eat dinner there. That doesn't even make any sense. So Floyd stays busy with the Baldomir fight. He tried to make the Mosley fight, but Mosley didn't want it...preferring to go on vacation instead. So Floyd says fuck it and moves up to 154 to fight De La Hoya, but you're saying that wasn't a risk? I just don't understand what the hell you want the guy to do. I mean, I hear what you're saying...I want to see nothing but big fights too, but all the blame doesn't lie on Floyd Mayweather like you make it sound. He's was willing to fight Cotto...Arum wouldn't let him. He was willing to fight Hatton...Hatton wasn't ready. He tried to fight Mosley...Mosley wanted to go on vacation. He moved up to 154 and fought De La Hoya. Hell, then he even tried to make a fight with Winky Wright, and THAT could have been a done deal if Winky would have agreed to the same day weigh-in...but he refused to, so that fight fell apart...but of course, I'm sure you forgot about that and just blame Floyd by default. Oddly enough, if Winky was asked to do a same day weigh-in today for a fight with Floyd, he'd take it in a heartbeat!

Quite frankly, there were no risks at 140 other than Hatton and Cotto, which I already addressed. And at 147, the "risks" that you claim he avoided are laughable. I mean, really, how many people do you think were going to buy a Mayweather vs. Paul Williams bout...or a Mayweather vs. Clottey bout...or even a Mayweather vs. Margarito bout at the time. This was all PRE-DE LA HOYA and PRE-HATTON...those PPV events would have been LUCKY to do 200,000 buys...hell, his PPV with Judah only did like 350,000...and that was only because Judah was a halfway decent name at the time and they marketed the shit out of that fight to the Hip Hop community. Not to knock Margarito, but his biggest win was against Kermit Cintron...how the hell do you market THAT fight at the time. I mean, I guess you could argue that the Margarito fight would have done the same as the Baldomir fight...I guess...but man, it seems like that's really the only argument you can hang your hat on...that he fought Baldomir instead of Margarito. Okay...well...personally, in my opinion, Margarito was never really a big risk to begin with...basically the same type of fighter as Baldomir, so forgive me if I didn't view Margarito as the same type of "threat" that some other people saw him as. I mean, the dude's biggest win was against Kermit Fucking Cintron...that's not exactly something that strikes fear in my eyes. LOL.

But alas, I've wasted FAR too much time regurgitating shit that I've already told you time and time again. There's really just no point in having a discussion when one side admits that they have a profound hatred for the subject matter. LOL. But regardless, I was bored so I figured I'd throw it all out there again anyway.

laugh.gif

DO YOUR RESEARCH! THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE IF YOU TAKE THE TIME TO LOOK FOR IT!

On a side note...

QUOTE
BOB ARUM ON FLOYD MAYWEATHER WHILE HE WAS STILL PROMOTING HIM...

"Floyd Mayweather is the best fighter in the world, I don't think there's any question about that. We're privileged to be promoting him and we're looking forward to doing a lot bigger and better things. Will Floyd and I have disagreements as we have in the past? Of course we will, we're the odd couple, but we'll work through them like we always have." - Bob Arum, October 31, 2005

"When he wants to be, the little son of a gun is an absolutely charming person. He was in my gym training over the weekend, all of the press was there and he couldn't have been more charming. I really mean that. He was sensational. If he can do that, then I think he can mature enough to be a big PPV star. And God knows he has the talent. I don't know any fighter around today that's as talented as this kid." - Bob Arum, May 17, 2005

"Well the great ones always rise to the occasion. I know Gatti is limited, let's be honest about it, but Floyd Mayweather is the best there is in boxing period. There is nobody that can contend with him for pound for pound best in the sport. Like I said before, it went from Ali to Sugar Ray Leonard to Pretty Boy Floyd. Some people today told me it goes back even further than that because this was a Sugar Ray Robinson type of performance." - Bob Arum, June 29, 2005


laugh.gif

Too funny. I don't even know how anyone can believe a word that comes out of Bob Arum's mouth regarding fighters that he does and does not promote. LOL.
pcraw
QUOTE (thehype @ Apr 7 2010, 09:39 PM) *
Honestly, I'm not even sure why I'm bothering to reply to STEVENSKI, an admitted Floyd Hater, because all logic goes out the window when you're talking to someone like that. HOWEVER....



I think the 147lb. Hatton was pretty much the same as the 140lb. Hatton. He didn't struggle with Collazo because of the weight...he struggled with Collazo because Hatton just isn't that great to begin with...never has been! HOWEVER, that being said, it's the fight that EVERYONE wanted...well just about everyone anyway. Personally, I figured it would be EASY WORK for Floyd and I really could've cared less if he fought him....but people like YOU, maybe not you in particular, but people similar to you were claiming that Floyd ducked him at 140, so ask and ye shall receive. Now, do I thnk it was great "challenge" for Floyd? No...I don't...but if someone is going to point to how good Manny Pacquiao is and talk about his destruction of Ricky Hatton as an example, then how can you NOT give Floyd the same credit for beating the same guy and beating him first? But regardless, the point is, don't make it sound like Ricky Hatton was some super featherweight that Floyd handpicked. It's a fight that the public DEMANDED, as evidence by the 1.5 million PPV buys, so it's a fight that they got! That whole post was addressing Jack's comments about Floyd having this reputation of fighting smaller fighters and that's simply not the case.



Who was at 140 that was any risk to begin with? Let's take a look. Gatti was the WBC champ. Vivian Harris was the WBA champ. Kostya Tszyu was the IBF champ. Cotto was the WBO champ.

Kostya Tszyu was with Showtime, so that fight was difficult to make to begin with. Please don't forget that up until that point, Floyd had yet to even headline a PPV, and as far as I know, the only fight that HBO and Showtime did a collaboration on was Tyson vs. Lewis...a HUGE PPV event...so don't make it sound like that was a case of Floyd "ducking" KT. Tszyu would later lose to little known Ricky Hatton, but even when Floyd asked to fight him, Ricky Hatton, his trainer, his dad and his entire team all said that they weren't ready to fight Floyd Mayweather. I'm sure you remember all that smack that Hatton was talking about coming to America to take over...he showed up to watch Mayweather vs. Gatti talking about wanting to fight the winner and then after the fight, all the talk stoped immediately and he ended up fighting Carlos "Golem" Maussa instead. Do your research!

Vivian Harris and his dumb ass was actually next in line to fight Floyd after the Gatti fight, which is why he was fighting Carlos Maussa on the undercard...and then he lost, so that fight went right out the window.

Miguel Cotto was NEVER an option as long as Floyd Mayweather was still a Top Rank fighter. Bob Arum would not allow the fight to happen...he said it time and time and TIME AGAIN. In fact...and I quote:

"I think it's too soon...Obviously in a year from now, whether it's at 147 or 140, that will be the Leonard-Duran fight of our generation. But it's not ready yet, we've got to build Cotto up more." - Bob Arum on a possible Mayweather vs. Cotto bout, June 29, 2005

Now that was in June of 2005...a few months later, Floyd moved up to 147, so how the hell was he supposed to fight Cotto if their mutual promoter is saying that Cotto isn't ready? And come to think of it, who the hell was Cotto fighting at 140 that was a risk? Kelson Pinto?

So who exactly did you want him to fight? Who was the big risk? Carlos Maussa?

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You can do the same research and discover the same information at 147. The whole reason why he moved up was to fight the undisputed welterweight champion at the time...Zab Judah. Prior to Judah choking against Baldomir, it was a fight that EVERYBODY was wanting to see. The only reason why he even bothered to fight Sharmba Mitchell was because it was his first fight at 147 and a tune-up for the much bigger fight against Judah (Mitchell being a southpaw like Judah). He fought Mitchell in November of 2005 and the fight with Zab was essentially a done deal (Zab was signing the damn contract for the fight while he was down in Florida training for Baldomir). 2 months later, in January of 2006, Zab's stupid ass lost to Baldomir. So you're telling me Floyd should have scrapped the Judah fight and fought a bigger "risk"...okay....but who? At the time, Margarito wasn't even an option because, again, Floyd was a Top Rank fighter and the fight that his own promoter, Bob Arum, chose to make was the Judah fight. Not Margarito, not Clottey, but Judah. It was only AFTER that fight, when Mayweather bought out his contract from Arum, did Margarito, Clottey AND Cotto even become an option, but at that point, Floyd was on some "FUCK YOU BOB ARUM" shit...and I can't say that I blame him. I'm not even sure why you would blame him either. If you're working at a restaurant and you quit because you can't stand your boss, you don't show up the next day to eat dinner there. That doesn't even make any sense. So Floyd stays busy with the Baldomir fight. He tried to make the Mosley fight, but Mosley didn't want it...preferring to go on vacation instead. So Floyd says fuck it and moves up to 154 to fight De La Hoya, but you're saying that wasn't a risk? I just don't understand what the hell you want the guy to do. I mean, I hear what you're saying...I want to see nothing but big fights too, but all the blame doesn't lie on Floyd Mayweather like you make it sound. He's was willing to fight Cotto...Arum wouldn't let him. He was willing to fight Hatton...Hatton wasn't ready. He tried to fight Mosley...Mosley wanted to go on vacation. He moved up to 154 and fought De La Hoya. Hell, then he even tried to make a fight with Winky Wright, and THAT could have been a done deal if Winky would have agreed to the same day weigh-in...but he refused to, so that fight fell apart...but of course, I'm sure you forgot about that and just blame Floyd by default. Oddly enough, if Winky was asked to do a same day weigh-in today for a fight with Floyd, he'd take it in a heartbeat!

Quite frankly, there were no risks at 140 other than Hatton and Cotto, which I already addressed. And at 147, the "risks" that you claim he avoided are laughable. I mean, really, how many people do you think were going to buy a Mayweather vs. Paul Williams bout...or a Mayweather vs. Clottey bout...or even a Mayweather vs. Margarito bout at the time. This was all PRE-DE LA HOYA and PRE-HATTON...those PPV events would have been LUCKY to do 200,000 buys...hell, his PPV with Judah only did like 350,000...and that was only because Judah was a halfway decent name at the time and they marketed the shit out of that fight to the Hip Hop community. Not to knock Margarito, but his biggest win was against Kermit Cintron...how the hell do you market THAT fight at the time. I mean, I guess you could argue that the Margarito fight would have done the same as the Baldomir fight...I guess...but man, it seems like that's really the only argument you can hang your hat on...that he fought Baldomir instead of Margarito. Okay...well...personally, in my opinion, Margarito was never really a big risk to begin with...basically the same type of fighter as Baldomir, so forgive me if I didn't view Margarito as the same type of "threat" that some other people saw him as. I mean, the dude's biggest win was against Kermit Fucking Cintron...that's not exactly something that strikes fear in my eyes. LOL.

But alas, I've wasted FAR too much time regurgitating shit that I've already told you time and time again. There's really just no point in having a discussion when one side admits that they have a profound hatred for the subject matter. LOL. But regardless, I was bored so I figured I'd throw it all out there again anyway.

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DO YOUR RESEARCH! THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE IF YOU TAKE THE TIME TO LOOK FOR IT!

On a side note...



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Too funny. I don't even know how anyone can believe a word that comes out of Bob Arum's mouth regarding fighters that he does and does not promote. LOL.


Damn! Just damn!
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (thehype @ Apr 8 2010, 03:39 AM) *
Honestly, I'm not even sure why I'm bothering to reply to STEVENSKI, an admitted Floyd Hater, because all logic goes out the window when you're talking to someone like that. HOWEVER....


You are right it is silly to argue Floyd with me. No matter what hard facts you present they are null & void as my hate is stronger than truth.

QUOTE (thehype @ Apr 8 2010, 03:39 AM) *
how can you NOT give Floyd the same credit for beating the same guy and beating him first?


I can & do with alarming ease. Hatton is a bum. A bum that took Floyd 8 rounds longer to take out than Pac. Therefore Pac is 5 times better than Floyd. Do the maths Ben you know it to be true.


You make some good points Hype you really do. Agreeable, concise, factual but lost on a man driven by hate.
Snoop
So...don't fuck with hype? Basically?
thehype
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Apr 8 2010, 08:24 AM) *
You are right it is silly to argue Floyd with me. No matter what hard facts you present they are null & void as my hate is stronger than truth.


I can & do with alarming ease. Hatton is a bum. A bum that took Floyd 8 rounds longer to take out than Pac. Therefore Pac is 5 times better than Floyd. Do the maths Ben you know it to be true.


You make some good points Hype you really do. Agreeable, concise, factual but lost on a man driven by hate.


laugh.gif

Ricky Hatton is a bum, but he stopped Castillo in 4 and Malignaggi in 11. Using your math, that would make him better than Diego Corrales and Miguel Cotto.

Hopkins never stopped Jermain Taylor, so I guess that makes Arthur Abraham and Carl Froch 5 times better than him too...or maybe it's just 3 times better than him...either way, do the math STEVENSKI...you know it to be true.

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Yeeeeessss...the Hate is strong, but your powers are weak old man!
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (Snoop @ Apr 8 2010, 01:18 PM) *
So...don't fuck with hype? Basically?


Well ben is actually very good about things in my experience. You can give him a bit of shit & certainly disagree with him. he is no despot like certain other site owners who referred to his members as monkeys.
The CEO
QUOTE (Snoop @ Apr 8 2010, 09:18 AM) *
So...don't fuck with hype? Basically?


Yep...he's armed with facts, has a memory like a steel trap, and will "take you outside and fuck you in the street!"...lol


Hey, Hype...I don't know if you know this....but you recently blew up an entire forum with one of your May-Pac posts from the negotiation days.....the thread's name was "Owner of major website's opinion" or somethin'....they did NOT like what you were sayin'...lol
Keith
Winky Wright... Winky is a good fighter with a reputation that exceeds his accomplishments. He's viewed as a great fighter and spent a significant amount of time on the pfp list during the last decade. In reality, his accomplishments were limited to a couple big names at junior middleweight.

Winky twice beat Shane Mosley. These were solid victories that gave Winky some star power but truth be told... Shane Mosley was clearly the smaller fighter and never really belonged at 154 lbs as evidence by his current campaign at 147. Winky dismantled Felix Trinidad, but this was the post retirement Felix Trinidad at 160, not the beast that dominated 147 years earlier.

As soon as Winky stepped out of 154... his skills didnt pay the bills. He had a good scrap at 160 with Jermain Taylor and to his credit earned a legitimate draw with the champion. His cunty refusal to accept the draw and hard stance on a potential rematch dimished him in my view. He lost a UD to Bernard Hopkins at a catchweight fight of 170. Winky was noticeably soft for this fight and it looked like he tried to eat his way to 170. Winky was then completely shut out against Paul Williams in a middleweight fight.

Winky has few intangibles on his resume as well. No significant knock-outs, no come from behind victories, no fight of the year candidates. He's was a good fighter but it's absolute crap to put him in the "great" category.
BGv2.0
QUOTE (pcraw @ Apr 7 2010, 06:40 PM) *
First and foremost people on this website don't think Toney is the sole fighter to take the Klitschko's out,

but you obviously have more faith in them beating Toney than they do.

You say, don't count Toney's win to Ruiz because it was taken away, fair enough, but why are we saying, "Most people thought Oquendo won?" Hey Toney got the W so don't count that fight. 6-2-1-2 for a former middleweight fighting at heavyweight and no one has stopped him ain't bad opposed to what he's up against.

Hell if you don't want to see Toney fight the Klitscho's for a title you gotta at least think guy's like Arreola, Chambers and QueenPin should have to go through him to get a title shot.


YES....many do. Take a look at the comments ANY time JT spews his BS on the front page.

As I have said before...I think the Klits KNOW JT is a legend and is nowhere near the size needed to actually beat them....so as a result they do not look for a fight with the guy. They have often said they would not fight Holyfield due to the respect they have for him....seems they would think the same fo Toney.

AND....on a basic common sense match maker POV....JT is absolute POISON for your fighter. If your guy wins....he beat up an old, fat ex legend. If your guy beats him up badly...fans will never forgive you for taking the fight. AND...God forbid your guy lose to him....then your guy lost to a fat, old small guy....

I NEVER said "Most people thought Oquendo won"......you misquoted me. I said "many" thought he won....in terms of boxing there is a difference.

6-2-1-2...might impress you....but not me. And you say compared to what he's up against...yet you also bash the state of the HW division...which I don't disagree with you there....the division SUCKS....has for some time...which is all the more reason 6-2-1-2 looks like absolute garbage to me.

Saying all of this....believe me...nobody wants to see a Klit/Toney fight more than me.

Because that would FINALLY end the delusion...not only for JT...but for his unrealistic supporters.
Big Slim Sweet
QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ Apr 8 2010, 02:32 AM) *
PBF and others have been accused of ducking him.


PBF did duck Margarito.

pcraw
QUOTE (BGv2.0 @ Apr 8 2010, 11:47 AM) *
YES....many do. Take a look at the comments ANY time JT spews his BS on the front page.

As I have said before...I think the Klits KNOW JT is a legend and is nowhere near the size needed to actually beat them....so as a result they do not look for a fight with the guy. They have often said they would not fight Holyfield due to the respect they have for him....seems they would think the same fo Toney.

AND....on a basic common sense match maker POV....JT is absolute POISON for your fighter. If your guy wins....he beat up an old, fat ex legend. If your guy beats him up badly...fans will never forgive you for taking the fight. AND...God forbid your guy lose to him....then your guy lost to a fat, old small guy....

I NEVER said "Most people thought Oquendo won"......you misquoted me. I said "many" thought he won....in terms of boxing there is a difference.

6-2-1-2...might impress you....but not me. And you say compared to what he's up against...yet you also bash the state of the HW division...which I don't disagree with you there....the division SUCKS....has for some time...which is all the more reason 6-2-1-2 looks like absolute garbage to me.

Saying all of this....believe me...nobody wants to see a Klit/Toney fight more than me.

Because that would FINALLY end the delusion...not only for JT...but for his unrealistic supporters.


Bro, the comments you read under the articles are fans and are not directly affiliated with FightHype.com. That's their opinion if they think he's the sole person that can beat the Klit bros just like it's your opinion that he can't. So you're telling me the Klits are looking to fight people that actually stand a chance to beat them? I was wondering how Tony Thompson, Hasim Rahman, Ray Austin and those guys got a title shot. So we're giving out title shots based on size now? Is Eddie Chambers big enough? He's barely 6' and weighed 209 for Wlad. I'm just saying...

So you're saying JT is poison and Sosnowski isn't? Cut it out man.

Many/most it doesn;t matter JT got the win. Many people thought the Rahman NC was bullshit but it doesn't matter.

Hey 6-2-1-2 looks better than 3-3, but I don't see you complaining about Ruiz getting a shot a Haye. So if 6-2-1-2 looks like absolute garbage to you then Ruiz's record must be the septic tank in your eyes.

Man you're not hoping for anything that I'm not looking for. I hope they do fight him and either shut him up or show everyone why they have been avoiding him. I mean you can't think Toney is as far gone as Lamon Brewster when Wlad rematched him and he only had one eye?
D-MARV
QUOTE (Sweetness @ Apr 8 2010, 01:57 PM) *
PBF did duck Margarito.

I'm not gonna spend any more time trying to debate this but you're wrong.
Big Slim Sweet
QUOTE (D-MARV @ Apr 8 2010, 06:54 PM) *
I'm not gonna spend any more time trying to debate this but you're wrong.


I agree there's nothing to be gained from rehashing this bit of history but I'm right.
Lil-lightsout
QUOTE (Sweetness @ Apr 8 2010, 08:07 PM) *
I agree there's nothing to be gained from rehashing this bit of history but I'm right.


Yep.
BGv2.0
QUOTE (pcraw @ Apr 8 2010, 05:49 PM) *
Bro, the comments you read under the articles are fans and are not directly affiliated with FightHype.com. That's their opinion if they think he's the sole person that can beat the Klit bros just like it's your opinion that he can't. So you're telling me the Klits are looking to fight people that actually stand a chance to beat them? I was wondering how Tony Thompson, Hasim Rahman, Ray Austin and those guys got a title shot. So we're giving out title shots based on size now? Is Eddie Chambers big enough? He's barely 6' and weighed 209 for Wlad. I'm just saying...

So you're saying JT is poison and Sosnowski isn't? Cut it out man.

Many/most it doesn;t matter JT got the win. Many people thought the Rahman NC was bullshit but it doesn't matter.

Hey 6-2-1-2 looks better than 3-3, but I don't see you complaining about Ruiz getting a shot a Haye. So if 6-2-1-2 looks like absolute garbage to you then Ruiz's record must be the septic tank in your eyes.

Man you're not hoping for anything that I'm not looking for. I hope they do fight him and either shut him up or show everyone why they have been avoiding him. I mean you can't think Toney is as far gone as Lamon Brewster when Wlad rematched him and he only had one eye?


I realize that. However the question states most overrated fighter in one's personal opinion....and I'm basing that on the clear fan support as well as a decent amount of supposed "expert" opinions that follow that same logic. I'm not in any way linking those comments with this site in particular....believe me...it's not just Fighthype.

I think you have more of an issue with the lack of talent in the HW division. As much as I am NOT a Klit fan....the one thing that is NOT their fault is the lack of talent available for them to fight.

All of those guys earned their shots with simply 1-2 wins over half ass opposition....but that's just the way of the division nowadays. Nobody should blame these guys for taking their shot when 1-2 wins over crappy lower bottom top ten or so is enough to warrent you a shot.....that's simply a side effect of a crap, talent lite division.

AND...I'm in no way saying that size is all that counts....BUT...you would have to be delusional to compare JT's size to even the smaller HW's of the division....guys like Chambers and Povetkin might be small...but they are not JT small.

YES....I am saying JT compared to Sosnowski is poison from a matchmaking perspective.....why fight JT and risk even the smallest possibility of anything I said in the prior post...when he can walk over this guy and STILL make just as much as if he were fighting JT.....you have to keep in mind...the Euro's and German's love these two so much they dont have to fight named opposition to make big bucks.

NO...you can't even compare Ruiz's resume to JT..AT HW! Ruiz fought anybody put in front of him and has a mile long list of named HW opposition as opposed to Toney...so...yes...JT's HW record is garbage compared to Ruiz's...and I think most on this board would agree.

And yes...I do think JT is that far gone....the only thing he has over Brewster is two good eyes.

Fitz
QUOTE (BGv2.0 @ Apr 9 2010, 03:28 PM) *
I realize that. However the question states most overrated fighter in one's personal opinion....and I'm basing that on the clear fan support as well as a decent amount of supposed "expert" opinions that follow that same logic. I'm not in any way linking those comments with this site in particular....believe me...it's not just Fighthype.

I think you have more of an issue with the lack of talent in the HW division. As much as I am NOT a Klit fan....the one thing that is NOT their fault is the lack of talent available for them to fight.

All of those guys earned their shots with simply 1-2 wins over half ass opposition....but that's just the way of the division nowadays. Nobody should blame these guys for taking their shot when 1-2 wins over crappy lower bottom top ten or so is enough to warrent you a shot.....that's simply a side effect of a crap, talent lite division.

AND...I'm in no way saying that size is all that counts....BUT...you would have to be delusional to compare JT's size to even the smaller HW's of the division....guys like Chambers and Povetkin might be small...but they are not JT small.

YES....I am saying JT compared to Sosnowski is poison from a matchmaking perspective.....why fight JT and risk even the smallest possibility of anything I said in the prior post...when he can walk over this guy and STILL make just as much as if he were fighting JT.....you have to keep in mind...the Euro's and German's love these two so much they dont have to fight named opposition to make big bucks.

NO...you can't even compare Ruiz's resume to JT..AT HW! Ruiz fought anybody put in front of him and has a mile long list of named HW opposition as opposed to Toney...so...yes...JT's HW record is garbage compared to Ruiz's...and I think most on this board would agree.

And yes...I do think JT is that far gone....the only thing he has over Brewster is two good eyes.


BG, you just need to leave it. The guys on this board are all over Toney's nuts hard, lol. I really like Toney and also one of my favourites, I even used to argue with you years back regarding Toney, but you were spot on and I was wrong. Toney has done nothing at heavyweight other than beat Holyfield years and years ago. Other than that, he has done jack shit, but he is being made out to be something more at heavyweight.
A lot of love for Toney on here. It's almost as if they are using his whole career to determine where he is as a heavyweight, rather than just look at his heavyweight career as a whole.
I really, really like Toney but people need to not make him into something more in this division.
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