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D-MARV
Some modern fighters I can think of off the top of my head are Jermain Taylor, James Toney, and Nicolay Valuev...


In my opinion, Taylor lost the first fight with Hopkins, the Winky Wright fight, and the Cory Spinks fight.

I thought James Toney lost the first Hasim Rahman fight pretty clearly and he DEFINITELY lost the Fres Oquendo fight.

Valuev lost both fights to Ruiz (IMO) and he DEFINITELY lost the Holyfield fight.



Some of you "old heads" can pull some fighters from the past.

I know Ali been on the winning side of a few gifts.


Who else? Name the fighter and the fights!
oozemcbuck
I think Taylor won both fights with hop, and the winky fight came down to round 12, where winky thought he had the fight in the bag and didn't finish the fight, where Taylor fought right through the round to pull off the draw. And he definietly beat spinks.
One fight I can think of was Demitius Hopkins-Steve Forbes a few years back. That was a present from uncle B-Hop.
Jack 1000
Great topic!

We should expand this to include just about any fighter in history!

Probably one of the guys who got the most gifts was Sven Ottke since he was a champion who practically never left Germany to defend his title and always seemed to get the benefit of the doubt in close decisions, or just win decisions period.

Leonard got preferential treatment in the Hearns rematch. Ali got a couple of gifts in close fights, I think most noted in Norton III.

Chavez got a gift draw against Whitaker, although I honestly don't think it was as bad as the media made it out to be. I think Rameriz-Whitkaer I was a FAR WORSE decision. Chavez-Randall II, him losing due to the WBC accidental point-deduction rule in effect was just terrible

James Toney got a HUGE gift against Dave Tiberi. Foreman got a huge gift against Axel Schultz. Than, who can forget the Holyfield-Lewis I "draw" in a fight where Lewis seemed to win at least 8 rounds.

Jack
Nay_Sayer
DLH
HaydelHammer
Oscar de la hoya the HBO network golden boy.

vs Pernell Whitaker - I actually like Oscar up to this fight. The scoring was absolutely embarrassing I remember. Not to mention Pernell made him look like a fool in there that night. When Oscar got on TV and said he didn't see a reason for a rematch I was floored...thus my hatred for him began. He actually thought he won the fight by those actual score margins LOL....hell I had him losing.

vs Ike Quartey - Ike was robbed...all I can say. Fight was a draw at worse for Ike. 116-112 116-113 my ASS

vs Felix Sturm - I remember Oscar came in looking like John Ruiz. This robbery seemed to go un noticed. Sturm won that fight with a jab basically.
Mean Mister Mustard
QUOTE (Jack 1000 @ Apr 13 2010, 02:06 PM) *
Great topic!

We should expand this to include just about any fighter in history!

Probably one of the guys who got the most gifts was Sven Ottke since he was a champion who practically never left Germany to defend his title and always seemed to get the benefit of the doubt in close decisions, or just win decisions period.

Leonard got preferential treatment in the Hearns rematch. Ali got a couple of gifts in close fights, I think most noted in Norton III.

Chavez got a gift draw against Whitaker, although I honestly don't think it was as bad as the media made it out to be. I think Rameriz-Whitkaer I was a FAR WORSE decision. Chavez-Randall II, him losing due to the WBC accidental point-deduction rule in effect was just terrible

James Toney got a HUGE gift against Dave Tiberi. Foreman got a huge gift against Axel Schultz. Than, who can forget the Holyfield-Lewis I "draw" in a fight where Lewis seemed to win at least 8 rounds.

Jack


I agree, I thought the Chavez fight was competitive but Whitaker should have won it, even the Mexicans in the crowd thought so, based on their silence at the end of the fight.

Sven Ottke over Robin Reid was disgusting.

Now what do we mean by "Gift"? Is it when a fighter who landed the cleaner blows, controled the action through ring generalship or did more damage gets shafted by the judges? I think so but then the issue gets muddy when a guy only landed the cleaner blows but suffered more damage in the process because he got hit more all over the place and the other guy's blows were harder. If he loses that fight I wouldn't really call it a gift. A bad decision maybe.

This brings forth the problem with boxing, which is that sometimes people judge a fight over who landed more clean punches, or who landed the harder ones or even who thre more punches. In a close competitve fight, almost people will have different opinions and rare is the close fight in which a guy was the clear winner (Morales-Pacquiao 1). The worst is when you had a close fight in which the guy you thought should have won gets shafted and then someone else tells you why they thought the other deserved the win and you actually get their point of view. It's the worst because that's when you realize that when it comes right down to it, anyone can give valid reasons why their guy won depending on what they liked and you know that as long as it was a close fight, they have a point.

That's why if I were a fighter and lost a close fight I wouldn't be too sad because you showed during those 12 rounds that you can hang in there with the top guys and that if you fight again, different judges might decide the fight in your favor. In other words, it's all about those 3 people looking at the fight.



Mean Mister Mustard
QUOTE (HaydelHammer @ Apr 13 2010, 02:20 PM) *
Oscar de la hoya the HBO network golden boy.

vs Pernell Whitaker - I actually like Oscar up to this fight. The scoring was absolutely embarrassing I remember. Not to mention Pernell made him look like a fool in there that night. When Oscar got on TV and said he didn't see a reason for a rematch I was floored...thus my hatred for him began. He actually thought he won the fight by those actual score margins LOL....hell I had him losing.

vs Ike Quartey - Ike was robbed...all I can say. Fight was a draw at worse for Ike. 116-112 116-113 my ASS

vs Felix Sturm - I remember Oscar came in looking like John Ruiz. This robbery seemed to go un noticed. Sturm won that fight with a jab basically.


I also think he lost the Quartey fight. Apart from a few flurries that amonuted to little and the two knockdowns, he didn't do much, other than eat Quartey's jabs all night long.
HaydelHammer
QUOTE (Mean Mister Mustard @ Apr 13 2010, 02:25 PM) *
I also think he lost the Quartey fight. Apart from a few flurries that amonuted to little and the two knockdowns, he didn't do much, other than eat Quartey's jabs all night long.



That jab was an absolute murder to Oscar that night.

Poor Ike.
Method
The most "gifted" fighter of ALL TIME has to be Cream of Sum Young Guy (Park Si-Hun) over Roy Jones in the finals of the olympics. That was the most ridiculous thing I have ever witnessed.
D-MARV
QUOTE (oozemcbuck @ Apr 13 2010, 01:42 PM) *
I think Taylor won both fights with hop, and the winky fight came down to round 12, where winky thought he had the fight in the bag and didn't finish the fight, where Taylor fought right through the round to pull off the draw. And he definietly beat spinks.
One fight I can think of was Demitius Hopkins-Steve Forbes a few years back. That was a present from uncle B-Hop.

LOL... you must be a Taylor fan. I have never talked to a guy that said Taylor won both Hopkins fights AND the Winky fight.
PR316
De La Hoya. Which is why I'll never have any sympathy for him.

Paulie Ayala was another guy.
Romulus9
QUOTE (Jack 1000 @ Apr 13 2010, 02:06 PM) *
Great topic!

We should expand this to include just about any fighter in history!

Probably one of the guys who got the most gifts was Sven Ottke since he was a champion who practically never left Germany to defend his title and always seemed to get the benefit of the doubt in close decisions, or just win decisions period.

Leonard got preferential treatment in the Hearns rematch. Ali got a couple of gifts in close fights, I think most noted in Norton III.

Chavez got a gift draw against Whitaker, although I honestly don't think it was as bad as the media made it out to be. I think Rameriz-Whitkaer I was a FAR WORSE decision. Chavez-Randall II, him losing due to the WBC accidental point-deduction rule in effect was just terrible

James Toney got a HUGE gift against Dave Tiberi. Foreman got a huge gift against Axel Schultz. Than, who can forget the Holyfield-Lewis I "draw" in a fight where Lewis seemed to win at least 8 rounds.

Jack



For the record, I had Foreman winning over Schulz 115-113.

I can only remember Leonard getting a beneficial call in two fights, but they were two pretty big fights: Hearns II and Hagler. I had Ray losing both fights, including a BIG margins against Hearns.

The one I'll add in is Hector Camacho. I thought he lost to Ray Mancini in 1986, had him losing a slim decision to Edwin Rosario in 1986, and I thought the first fight with Duran in 1996 was an absolute ROBBERY!

Ali, Leonard, and Camacho are all guys that really just got the benefit of the doubt in the close rounds of close fights, even when entirely unwarranted. Look at the close calls for Ali post-1974... Shavers, Young, and Norton III were are razor thin but Ali very easily should have lost 2 of 3 if not all 3 (he DID lose the Norton fight without question).

de la Hoya is an interesting topic here because he got a few decisions he perhaps shouldn't have gotten but also was on the short end of some bad ones too. I had him losing to Quartey and Sturm, with a draw against Whitaker, and he won all three, but I also think he beat Felix Trinidad EASILY (116-112) and most think he beat Mosley the second time around (I had it 114-114).
Romulus9
QUOTE (PR316 @ Apr 13 2010, 05:18 PM) *
De La Hoya. Which is why I'll never have any sympathy for him.

Paulie Ayala was another guy.



I had Ayala losing both fights to Tapia. The first fight was close (I had it 115-113) but Johnny won the rematch going away and was flat out ROBBED (I had it 117-111).
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE (D-MARV @ Apr 13 2010, 12:35 PM) *
Some modern fighters I can think of off the top of my head are Jermain Taylor, James Toney, and Nicolay Valuev...


In my opinion, Taylor lost the first fight with Hopkins, the Winky Wright fight, and the Cory Spinks fight.

I thought James Toney lost the first Hasim Rahman fight pretty clearly and he DEFINITELY lost the Fres Oquendo fight.

Valuev lost both fights to Ruiz (IMO) and he DEFINITELY lost the Holyfield fight.



Some of you "old heads" can pull some fighters from the past.

I know Ali been on the winning side of a few gifts.


Who else? Name the fighter and the fights!

Basilio got a gift in the first Robinson fight..Fullmer got a gift in the 3rd Robinson fight..
D-MARV
LOL... leave it up to JB to bring up some old school fights... Good Job man!
Jack 1000
I always have Leonard over Hagler 7-5 115-113 every time I watch it. All Hagler needed was a little more agression in those early rounds to win and he didn't do it. If only Hagler would have torn into Ray like he did Hearns. The Duran fight was another Hagler disappointment, but I thought the scores were too close. I had Hagler something like 3 or 4 points ahead.

Paulie Ayala over Hugo Dianzo was disgusting! I had Hugo up 116-112. I think Paulie got that to protect his status as a Top Rank fighter. That was a true "Texas Robbery." At least Diaz-Malinaggi was close, spare Gale Van Hoy's idiotic 118-110 Diaz card. Van Hoy was also a judge in Ayala-Dianzo as I recall.

Jack
Mean Mister Mustard
QUOTE (Jack 1000 @ Apr 13 2010, 06:04 PM) *
I always have Leonard over Hagler 7-5 115-113 every time I watch it. All Hagler needed was a little more agression in those early rounds to win and he didn't do it. If only Hagler would have torn into Ray like he did Hearns. The Duran fight was another Hagler disappointment, but I thought the scores were too close. I had Hagler something like 3 or 4 points ahead.

Paulie Ayala over Hugo Dianzo was disgusting! I had Hugo up 116-112. I think Paulie got that to protect his status as a Top Rank fighter. That was a true "Texas Robbery." At least Diaz-Malinaggi was close, spare Gale Van Hoy's idiotic 118-110 Diaz card. Van Hoy was also a judge in Ayala-Dianzo as I recall.

Jack


I remember the Ayala-Dianzo decision. I remember when Ayala was about to fight Morales and back then Morales had received close decisions over Barerra and Espadas Jr and Ayala had received close ones over Dianzo and Adams and was left wondering who the judges were going to give the win to lol.
D-MARV
There some really good posts in this thread.


Joel Casamayor had a few gifts on his resume. The Santa Cruz fight was one of the worst decisions I have ever seen.
D-MARV
QUOTE (Fitz @ Apr 13 2010, 07:46 PM) *
The people mentioning DLH are not mentioning the ones that didn't go his way like Mosley and Trinidad.

rolleyes_anim.gif

Exactly... That's why I didn't mention his name. I thought a lot of his fights were CLOSE and could have gone either way. His fight with Sturm was robbery.
Romulus9
One of the biggest gifts EVER was Joe Louis' win in the first Walcott fight but Louis rarely worried about dealing with the judges.

I wouldn't call the first Basilio-Robinson fight a gift decision. Case could have been made either way. Those two Basilio-Robinson fights were something else, by the standards of any era.
Keith

Biggest gift I remember for a huge fight.... Holyfield getting the draw against Lewis in their first encounter.

That was an absolute gift. Lewis dominated Holyfield... Evander barely sniffed his deodorant.
EpTXCHAMP
Can't remember against who but casa got a gift In a fight that I seriously gave him one round
D-MARV
QUOTE (EpTXCHAMP @ Apr 13 2010, 08:35 PM) *
Can't remember against who but casa got a gift In a fight that I seriously gave him one round

That had to be the Santa Cruz fight. I gave Casamayor 2 rounds and was being REAL nice.
Romulus9
Biggest gift I ever saw was Foreman-Briggs. I threw a chair across the room that night.

Not pleased.

But in terms of a fighter who got multiple decisions that were questionable, there are a few to pick from.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE (Romulus9 @ Apr 13 2010, 07:03 PM) *
One of the biggest gifts EVER was Joe Louis' win in the first Walcott fight but Louis rarely worried about dealing with the judges.

I wouldn't call the first Basilio-Robinson fight a gift decision. Case could have been made either way. Those two Basilio-Robinson fights were something else, by the standards of any era.

I was going to say Walcott/Louis 1 but I couldn't do that to Joe..

I had Robinson winning that fight by a good margin..I think he clearly won and was a gift to Basilio..

Halger/Leonard and Hearn/Leonard are definitely gifts..Even though Duran didn't win,I still think it was a gift to him to score that fight with a margin of 1 point on 2 judges cards and 2 points on the other..

Mayweather/Castillo??haha..
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE (Keith @ Apr 13 2010, 07:23 PM) *
Biggest gift I remember for a huge fight.... Holyfield getting the draw against Lewis in their first encounter.

That was an absolute gift. Lewis dominated Holyfield... Evander barely sniffed his deodorant.

Yeah,and I felt it was a gift that they gave Lewis the second fight to make up for the draw that they screwed him on..Lewis won the first fight,Holy won the second..
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE (D-MARV @ Apr 13 2010, 05:47 PM) *
LOL... leave it up to JB to bring up some old school fights... Good Job man!

You can count on me man.. drinks.gif
JLUVBABY
most gifts to a fighter ever?... oscar dela hoya... ike quartey beat him... sturm beat him... and tho he won by ko oba carr had given hm all he could handle and that fight was by far closer than what the judges had it at the time of the stoppage... some even thought whitaker beat him as well.. you pretty much had to knock him out to win...
EpTXCHAMP
QUOTE (D-MARV @ Apr 13 2010, 06:58 PM) *
That had to be the Santa Cruz fight. I gave Casamayor 2 rounds and was being REAL nice.

Lol that's the one
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE (Fitz @ Apr 13 2010, 09:58 PM) *
Trinidad and Mosley would strongly disagree with you.

Yup,even when I thought DLH won the Trinidad fight too..
SmartyBeardo
Don't give me the "Chavez v Whitaker was close". That's like saying the Louisiana and Alaska purchases were win win.
Lil-lightsout
QUOTE (Fitz @ Apr 14 2010, 12:34 AM) *
I watched Chavez-Whitaker about 2 weeks ago. Fucking disgrace and that wasn't a fight that you could argue could have gone to Chavez. He got a gift bad, and Whitaker clowned him.


Damn, first time you ever watched that fight?

I remember watching that at the house with a ton of my friends here. Man were we celebrating and so happy...that is until they announced the decision. wtf.gif

I thought Chavez would be too strong and break down Sweet Pea, but damn was I wrong. That fight was top 5 worst decisions I ever saw.
Romulus9
QUOTE (Lil-lightsout @ Apr 14 2010, 01:21 AM) *
Damn, first time you ever watched that fight?

I remember watching that at the house with a ton of my friends here. Man were we celebrating and so happy...that is until they announced the decision. wtf.gif

I thought Chavez would be too strong and break down Sweet Pea, but damn was I wrong. That fight was top 5 worst decisions I ever saw.




Have you seen Whitaker-Ramirez I?
King Eugene
Whitaker boxed circles around Chavez. That was so indisputable its ridiculous. Ol Sweet Pea wasn't something to watch. They dont make'em like that anymore.
Lil-lightsout
QUOTE (Romulus9 @ Apr 14 2010, 01:23 AM) *
Have you seen Whitaker-Ramirez I?


Yep.

Hometown cooking for Ramirez, no doubt pathetic. I also seen Whitaker-Ramirez II in the Scope in Pea's hometown, where Whitaker absolutely fought a flawless fight and shutout Ramirez for some payback.
King Eugene
Where do you guys rank Whitaker all time?
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (King Eugene @ Apr 14 2010, 01:35 AM) *
Where do you guys rank Whitaker all time?

One of the great all time boxing tragedies.

Chavez Jr's entire career has been a gift.
kidbazooka1
Vernon Forrest got a huge gift in the Quartey fight as did DLH.

Floyd got a gift against Castillo in there first meeting.

Mosley got a gift against DLH in the 2nd fight.

Some of these weren't all out robberies but they were gifts IMO.
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (Fitz @ Apr 14 2010, 01:49 AM) *
I'm one of the few that didn't think Mayweather-Castillo was a gift. A close fight that could have gone either way, neither landed too much on each other. Castillo worked Mayweather well, but didn't win it clear enough at all.

Come on Fitz, Castillo was defending.

PBF didn't do enough.
kidbazooka1
QUOTE (Fitz @ Apr 14 2010, 12:49 AM) *
I'm one of the few that didn't think Mayweather-Castillo was a gift. A close fight that could have gone either way, neither landed too much on each other. Castillo worked Mayweather well, but didn't win it clear enough at all.


It wasn't the worst decision but Castillo deserved that win.
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (Fitz @ Apr 14 2010, 03:27 AM) *
I don't like Mayweather one bit. Just calling a spade a spade. Based on what I saw, I think neither fighter really won the fight. Just a close fight that neither dominated in. Could have gone either way.

In which case the Champ should have retained. PBF did nowhere near enough to take it away. It was as if the judges were clued into the fact PBF was not 100% and took that into account. They treated him as though he was the champ.

Castillo was the aggressor all night. I am not the one that brought this up as a gift. I just believe that Castillo deserved at the minimum a draw and in my book the draw goes to the champ.
Nay_Sayer
QUOTE (kidbazooka1 @ Apr 14 2010, 12:47 AM) *
Vernon Forrest got a huge gift in the Quartey fight as did DLH.

I thought Quartey got robbed in the Forrest fight.
D-MARV
Quartey-Forrest was Terrible!
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