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lloyd mayflower
Just read the Dan Goossen interview on the front page where he thinks Williams can be P4P #1 this year. What I want to know is, what does he have to do, or more realistically, what might he be able to do to put himself in with a shout?

The way I see it first and most obvious port of call has to be beating the winner of Pavlik v Martinez. I know he already beat Sergio but it was probably disputed enough to warrant a rematch, and a win over Kelly would put Sergio right in there as a worthy scalp again.

But after that, is where I see it getting difficult for PWill. What does he do then cos there is no one to beat at 154 or 160 to give him top P4P status. The 147 division has that title locked up at the moment. The only arguement is which one of them has it. (hopefully Shane on May 2nd!) So can PWill still make it? Is he willing to make it? And what impressioin could he make there after so long fighting at higher weights?

Thoughts..
D-MARV
PWill's time is coming but it won't be this year...

He'll KO Cintron then OWN the Martinez/Pavlik winner. He should be a lock for top 5 by that time. MAYBE he can unify a couple of titles because I Doubt Mayweather OR Pacquiao go anywhere near him. He has to do it the old fashion way but he'll get it done. He should be the "MAN" by the end of 2011 or 2012.
Douchebag
QUOTE (D-MARV @ Apr 14 2010, 01:26 PM) *
PWill's time is coming but it won't be this year...

He'll KO Cintron then OWN the Martinez/Pavlik winner. He should be a lock for top 5 by that time. MAYBE he can unify a couple of titles because I Doubt Mayweather OR Pacquiao go anywhere near him. He has to do it the old fashion way but he'll get it done. He should be the "MAN" by the end of 2011 or 2012.



He lost to Sergio the first, IMO and would lose again even worst the second time. That fight should have has an immediate rematch.
Method
He will NEVER be P4P # 1.
KookedKrack
Not with his horrible defense.
Big Slim Sweet
If he can KO Cintron, beat the winner of Pavlik-Martinez later this year, go to 168 next year and beat Bute and the winner of the super six, then finally up to 175 to put it on Bad Chad I'd have him #1 sometime in 2012.

He won't get to the top waiting for the guys at 147 to come get him cause none of them are coming.
RyanTical
P-Will can be P4P #1 without anyone at 147 on his resume. I highly doubt anyone at 147 as small as they are, will step into the ring. P-Will can bitch and moan all he wants. The man is just too big and lanky for most of the fighters in that weight division. To say there is nobody at 160 or 154 is ridiculous because P-Will himself isn't a big name, so knocking off guys like Kermit Cintron, Sergio Mora, Yuri Foreman, Felix Strum then Kelly Pavlik will do him some good. I wouldn't mind seeing him jump up to Super Middleweight and tangle with Lucian Bute, Boxers participating in the Super Six, et cetera.

I'm not saying P-Will doesn't deserve a big fight, but at this current moment, where he's at...I'm not impressed enough to say: "Give him Boxer-X or Boxer-Y." Not after that whoopin' Sergio gave him.

grapevine241
he needs to break into the top 10 first
RyanTical
QUOTE (grapevine241 @ Apr 14 2010, 04:44 PM) *
he needs to break into the top 10 first


That too, he's pretty living off of hype and his freakish attributes.
kidbazooka1
Nah don't think so Manny will still reign supreme.
D-MARV
PWIll has done enough to be in the P4P lists. I find it hard to find 10 people that deserve to be ahead of PWill.
Keith
PWill has a unique style but he is somewhat overated because of how much fun he is to watch fight.

He won a close close fight with Margarito. He didnt dominate AM in a way that you could claim he would be at the top of the pfp list.
He's 1-1 against Quintana. Granted, PWill put him to sleep early the 2nd go around but a top pfp fighter does not lose a fight to Quintana.
He won a back and forth fight with Martinez, who is not on the pfp list either, and many believe Martinez won.

The point is... PWill hasnt beaten anyone of legitimate substance in a clear dominate fashion to put himself at the top of the pfp list.

Can it happen soon? Sure... but from my vantage point PWill is as much hype as substance right now.
xxxxxx
QUOTE (lloyd mayflower @ Apr 14 2010, 12:00 PM) *
Just read the Dan Goossen interview on the front page where he thinks Williams can be P4P #1 this year. What I want to know is, what does he have to do, or more realistically, what might he be able to do to put himself in with a shout?

The way I see it first and most obvious port of call has to be beating the winner of Pavlik v Martinez. I know he already beat Sergio but it was probably disputed enough to warrant a rematch, and a win over Kelly would put Sergio right in there as a worthy scalp again.

But after that, is where I see it getting difficult for PWill. What does he do then cos there is no one to beat at 154 or 160 to give him top P4P status. The 147 division has that title locked up at the moment. The only arguement is which one of them has it. (hopefully Shane on May 2nd!) So can PWill still make it? Is he willing to make it? And what impressioin could he make there after so long fighting at higher weights?

Thoughts..



I like Paul. He's an exciting fighter with a lot of courage. He is also a freak of nature at 6-2 and can fight at 147-154-160. I believe the guy has a bigger reach than Hearns did also, but I don't see him as becoming the p4p best. I think he has the capability to be considered near the top though. He definitely needs to work on his defense and use that great reach a little better. He will be KO'd if he keeps taking shots like he has.
Method
P4P #1 doesnt lose to Carlos Quintana, draw w Margarito a/o Martinez.

Paul Williams will NEVER EVER EVER be #1.
D-MARV
QUOTE (Keith @ Apr 14 2010, 09:25 PM) *
He won a close close fight with Margarito. He didnt dominate AM in a way that you could claim he would be at the top of the pfp list.

Whatever, He beat Margarito at a time when many considered Margarito the top fighter in the division. This was supposed to be the "so-called" most feared man on the planet. PWill went in Margarito's back yard and beat him pretty damn clearly.

QUOTE
He's 1-1 against Quintana. [b]Granted, PWill put him to sleep early the 2nd go around [/b]


Enough said... besides, Mosley looked like shit against Mayorga until the very last second of the fight.I'm certain you have Mosley in you're top 5. PWill has issues with slick southpaws, that is no secret but the fact that he said fuck it and knocked the man silly in the 1st round should have put that fist fight on the back burner.

QUOTE
The point is... PWill hasnt beaten anyone of legitimate substance in a clear dominate fashion to put himself at the top of the pfp list.


PWill beat Margarito, Martinez, and Winky Wright. Those were 3 solid victories and he deserves mention. Who cares that he didn't dominate Martinez and Margarito, he still got the win.

I'm not going to sit here and say that Paul Williams deserves to be the "MAN" but he deserves mention in the top 10. I want to see someone come up with 10 fighters who they believe deserves it over PWill.
D-MARV
QUOTE (Method @ Apr 14 2010, 09:35 PM) *
P4P #1 doesnt lose to Carlos Quintana, draw w Margarito a/o Martinez.

Paul Williams will NEVER EVER EVER be #1.

Get the fuck outta here with that shit. LOL

P4P fighters don't Draw with Segundo Mercado, fight trilogies with Robet fucking Allen, and don't lose to Jermain Taylor.

Method
We're talking about PWill.

You didnt see the first Mecado fight, and beating Robert Allen 3 times has nothing to do w nothing. Besides, nobody is making a case for Hopkins at #1...again, this thread is about Paul Williams being #1.

For the record, I enjoy watching PWill fight and I believe, as you assert, that he does deserve mention among the top 10. I just dont think he will EVER be #1.

D-MARV
QUOTE (Method @ Apr 14 2010, 09:48 PM) *
We're talking about PWill.

You didnt see the first Mecado fight, and beating Robert Allen 3 times has nothing to do w nothing. Besides, nobody is making a case for Hopkins at #1...again, this thread is about Paul Williams being #1.

For the record, I enjoy watching PWill fight and I believe, as you assert, that he does deserve mention among the top 10. I just dont think he will EVER be #1.

Fair enough...

But saying that he fought to a draw with Margarito and Martinez is incorrect. He beat Margarito clearly and fought a close fight with Martinez that could have gone either way.

He had a bad night against Quintana and came back to blow him away in 1...


Maybe PWill won't make it to the top spot and that's fine but to disregard him as a P4P player (not you) is silly.
Method
He's def a P4P player in my book. I genuinely enjoy watching him fight and seeing him match up w other guys.
D-MARV
QUOTE (Method @ Apr 14 2010, 10:00 PM) *
He's def a P4P player in my book. I genuinely enjoy watching him fight and seeing him match up w other guys.

Yup.

I PRAY that one day in the near future that we will be blessed with a Carl Froch-Paul Williams fight. That has WAR written all over it.
Big Slim Sweet
The way Williams beat Wright was VERY impressive. I also tend to give him a pass for the first Quintana fight considering he did everything he could possibly do to erase that loss emphatically.
grapevine241
for the record, i got paul williams @ #14 on my P4P right now. which is no disrespect at all, because i like him but he hasnt accomplished enough to be inside the top 10 yet.

winky was off for two years (bhop loss) with his last win being 3 years ago (old quartey), and before that was the "draw" with taylor.

beating verno phillips and sharmba mitchell doesnt put anybody in the top 10 in my eyes...

the quintana loss really hurt williams' credentials as a top 10 P4P, and so did the martinez "win" (i had it i think by 2 rounds for martinez) whom most (myself included) didnt seem to think was elite at the time, and im not sure if he is elite now --- the pavlik fight will tell us.

other than that hes got a close win to margarito, which counts for something, just not a top 10 spot IMO.

williams really needs a new trainer, because im getting sick of this "throw 1000 punches" strategy... that mr. peterson guy is a joke.

but he signed with dan goosen which means "soft fights/big hype" so...
Keith
The point I'm trying to make...

PWill gets too much credit because he is fun and exciting to watch vs say..... Floyd Mayweather, who is consistently criticized and discredited because he's not as crowd pleasing.

Case in point.... PWill domination of Winky. If Floyd fought a 37 year old fighter coming off a 21 month layoff who's last big win was 4 years prior to that... then people would be extremly critical. PWill does it and everybody gives him props.
grapevine241
QUOTE (Fitz @ Apr 14 2010, 10:38 PM) *
Name the 13 you have ahead of him.


pacquiao, mayweather, mosley, marquez, hopkins, calderon, dawson, cotto, bradley, hasegawa, darchinyan, wonjongkam, john...

williams is at 14 but is about even with 15 & 16, caballero & martinez
lloyd mayflower
QUOTE (Keith @ Apr 15 2010, 02:40 AM) *
The point I'm trying to make...

PWill gets too much credit because he is fun and exciting to watch vs say..... Floyd Mayweather, who is consistently criticized and discredited because he's not as crowd pleasing.

Case in point.... PWill domination of Winky. If Floyd fought a 37 year old fighter coming off a 21 month layoff who's last big win was 4 years prior to that... then people would be extremly critical. PWill does it and everybody gives him props.


Careful, your treading dangerous ground here warchief....
Keith
QUOTE (lloyd mayflower @ Apr 14 2010, 10:42 PM) *
Careful, your treading dangerous ground here warchief....


laugh.gif

Listen, we have to be accurate and fair when we discuss every fighter.

IMO, to be at the top of the pfp list you need to have 2 things ... you need to have some dominate wins against good competition and you need to have a long resume of solid wins. PWill is approaching the latter but lacks the former..... imo.
grapevine241
QUOTE (Fitz @ Apr 14 2010, 10:55 PM) *
Ok, a lot of them I can see how you have them ahead of Williams. But you discredit Williams for losing and then discredit him further for having a close fight with Martinez. Though you have Cotto there, who has been stopped twice and won close fights that others scored the other way (Mosley and Clottey), yet you discredit Williams for being in close fights, but it doesn't seem to play a factor when it comes to rating Cotto.
Dawson's two biggest wins are against Tarver and Johnson. His fight with Johnson was debatable, the same reason Williams lost points for being in a debatable fight. Johnson had a loss to Woods and then fought nobody of note before fighting Dawson. Tarver got annihilated by Hopkins, had a few fights, got a win over Woods and that was that. I'm just getting at that for reasons you discredit Williams, other guys you have ahead of him can have the same criticism used against them, and Williams has more names on his resume than Dawson.


the difference between williams vs. cotto and dawson are levels of competition. of course i discredit williams for losing, as i do with any other fighter. however williams lost decisively to quintana who cotto easily beat. at one point i had cotto as high as #3 or 4 but hes been demoted after getting KO'd by pacquiao. the margarito situation was cloudy but i didnt advance cotto after the scandal, he stayed at #6 i think it was. cotto has clearly consistently fought and beat the better competition which is why hes still within my top 10.

i felt that williams clearly lost to martinez, but its different than cotto beating clottey close (i thought cotto won) because clottey was a higher caliber opponent than martinez at the time. now most of us are beginning to see martinez as an elite fighter, but before that the only top level fighter martinez had really fought was margarito years ago and he was KO'd. so whether you though williams or cotto deserved their victories in those fights, the caliber of opponent makes the difference.

dawson beat two tough veterans twice (i had the first johnson fight for dawson but it was close) and he beat adamek. so williams does not have more names on his resume than dawson. (who i may have a little too high)

ill be the first to admit that my P4P isnt perfect but i think ive done a pretty good job with it. its no discredit to williams not having him in the top 10, i just dont think hes there yet (if he ever gets there).


williams is a little like donaire... hes got a solid victory over margarito like donaire has a solid victory over darchinyan, but what has either really done against elite opponents since then? you could make a crude comparison between martinez and concepcion i guess. which is why donaire isnt in my top 10 either. its more of a complement to the fighters in my top 10 that they are very good, not a discredit to those outside the top 10. not that my P4P really even matters its just my opinion lmao...
King Eugene
QUOTE (grapevine241 @ Apr 14 2010, 10:10 PM) *
i felt that williams clearly lost to martinez, but its different than cotto beating clottey close (i thought cotto won) because clottey was a higher caliber opponent than martinez at the time. now most of us are beginning to see martinez as an elite fighter, but before that the only top level fighter martinez had really fought was margarito years ago and he was KO'd. so whether you though williams or cotto deserved their victories in those fights, the caliber of opponent makes the difference.

Exactly how was Clottey a higher caliber opponent when his most notable fights before Cotto was beating Judah and Corrales in whom he couldn't take out and losing to Margarito? You have to give Martinez credit for the Cintron fight because he clearly KO'd him in the 7th(I believe) but Cintron cried his way back into the fight. If anything Martinez should have been rated higher than Clottey plus he has the WBC title at 154.
Rivado
I agree that PW's defense is not on the PW level but how can you not like a fool that opens up and attacks for 3 minutes of every round - great fighter, imo.

Now thee No1 PFP might be stretching it but a good top 5 might not be. Or in the least a MAJOR force to be reckoned with at the Welters.

A fight that makes sense at '47 is Williams vs. Berto. That one would be fukkin sicc.
Thegreatequalizer
what i think paul really needs to do to break into top p4p status is he needs to fight a bunch. if he seriously wants the top 147 guys, then he should clean out/unify 154. he'll become more well known in the process and any of those guys moving up will have nowhere else to go. but i guess why do that when you can just wait around for years for one big fight?

williams is definitely somewhere in the p4p ranks. i do give him credit for a good win against winky, even though it was an obviously bad style matchup for winky. he took on a very motivated margarito (who could've had illegal handwraps) and put on a masterful performance. i was truly impressed with him in that fight. i thought the martinez fight was a draw and i think williams will always have problems with him. williams does have a problem with guys who can move fast. i don't think he's going to be quite as effective at higher weights either. i don't think he should be fighting above 160 any time in the next few years.
D-MARV
QUOTE (grapevine241 @ Apr 14 2010, 10:41 PM) *
pacquiao, mayweather, mosley, marquez, hopkins, calderon, dawson, cotto, bradley, hasegawa, darchinyan, wonjongkam, john...

williams is at 14 but is about even with 15 & 16, caballero & martinez

You think Cotto deserves to be ahead of PWill after Cotto has been destroyed in 2 fights (1 by a guy that PWill beat) and arguably lost to Clottey? LMFAO.


Hopkins is no longer a P4P fighter.
D-MARV
QUOTE (Thegreatequalizer @ Apr 15 2010, 03:29 AM) *
what i think paul really needs to do to break into top p4p status is he needs to fight a bunch. if he seriously wants the top 147 guys, then he should clean out/unify 154. he'll become more well known in the process and any of those guys moving up will have nowhere else to go. but i guess why do that when you can just wait around for years for one big fight?

williams is definitely somewhere in the p4p ranks. i do give him credit for a good win against winky, even though it was an obviously bad style matchup for winky. he took on a very motivated margarito (who could've had illegal handwraps) and put on a masterful performance. i was truly impressed with him in that fight. i thought the martinez fight was a draw and i think williams will always have problems with him. williams does have a problem with guys who can move fast. i don't think he's going to be quite as effective at higher weights either. i don't think he should be fighting above 160 any time in the next few years.

Great Post.

The only knock I have on PWill is that he needs to stay busy. He can't afford to be fighting 2 times a year becuase he won't have a very long prime (based on his fighting style). While prima donnas like Floyd and Pac fight each other, PWill should be cleaning house at 154. It's his division to run right now.
Hops
QUOTE (D-MARV @ Apr 15 2010, 11:13 AM) *
Hopkins is no longer a P4P fighter.


He is. Until proven he can no longer hang with the tough guys.
grapevine241
QUOTE (King Eugene @ Apr 15 2010, 01:34 AM) *
Exactly how was Clottey a higher caliber opponent when his most notable fights before Cotto was beating Judah and Corrales in whom he couldn't take out and losing to Margarito? You have to give Martinez credit for the Cintron fight because he clearly KO'd him in the 7th(I believe) but Cintron cried his way back into the fight. If anything Martinez should have been rated higher than Clottey plus he has the WBC title at 154.


exactly like you said... judah & a shot corrales > cintron

and martinez beat williams IMO so i dont understand what you're argument is. getting beat by martinez who was never in my top 20 should move paul williams into the top 10 when hes never been in my top 10 before? where do you rank williams?

QUOTE (D-MARV @ Apr 15 2010, 06:13 AM) *
You think Cotto deserves to be ahead of PWill after Cotto has been destroyed in 2 fights (1 by a guy that PWill beat) and arguably lost to Clottey? LMFAO.


Hopkins is no longer a P4P fighter.


dont b mad ok.gif i like williams but hes not my top 10, believe the hype if u want to, my rankings are based on merit not promise. where do you rank williams?

hopkins is still P4P but i considered demoting him a lil bit because of weak competition and inactivity since pavlik.
Big Slim Sweet
QUOTE (D-MARV @ Apr 15 2010, 05:16 AM) *
The only knock I have on PWill is that he needs to stay busy. He can't afford to be fighting 2 times a year becuase he won't have a very long prime (based on his fighting style). While prima donnas like Floyd and Pac fight each other, PWill should be cleaning house at 154. It's his division to run right now.

Agreed on that. He should be fighting 3-4 times a year right now. The problem with that is HBO doesn't have enough dates to give him that many. Goosen should try to work a deal with Showtime like the kind Shaw has for Darchinyan. That guy seems to fight every 3-4 months on there, maybe PWill can do the same?

Otherwise he needs to work something out with Top Rank or GBP to co-promote him or something. Then maybe he can mix in a couple tune-ups on PPV undercards in between his annual two HBO dates.
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