After finally watching the latest edition of "Real Sports" covering the July deaths of Alexis Arguello, Arturo Gatti, and Vernon Forrest, I've concluded three things:

1) Alexis Arguello may have committed suicide.

2) Arturo Gatti did not commit suicide.

3) Vernon Forrest was a good man inside and outside the ring.

Other thoughts?

Co-sign on all three, Snoop.

Too much shit to cover and too small a time slot. you could have done an entire episode on each of the three. that's my only complaint.

By the time they got to Vernon Forrest, I was all full up on tragedy, and just turned over and went to bed. A little too much.

They need to dedicate an entire episode on the Gatti case. The other two were tragedies with more or less a solved ending but Gatti's case is an ongoing injustice that people need to know about.

All of them were sad but Forrest's was very fucked up ........that kid is probably traumatized from that experience. I don't know if there is a hell or not but if there is the people involved in Gatti/Forrest situation better have a special table there.

Hmm...what makes you think that? There is more evidence that he committed suicide than murdered. Actually, there is no evidence at all that he was murdered. Just hunches based on the life insurance. That Brazilian detective had good reasonable explanations for all the points the reporter threw at him.

Michael Baden said he couldn't determine, it could be suicide or murder. After doing some research on Baden, he has lost credibility in my view...especially after reading about his involvement with the OJ Simpson trial. I believe he favors the side that pays him, which Gumbel hinted at after the segment.

I agree that Gatti was murdered... Vernon Forrest's story was sad. He was truly a great guy.

I thought the Brazilian detective was shady as fuck. When they asked about testing for blood alcohol, he nonchalantly says the test wasn't done, without providing a reason, then immediately glances to the floor like he has something to hide. The body language alone tells me something is fishy. Plus, why wouldn't they test for blood alcohol level when the supposed theory is that Gatti was so drunk and emotional that he killed himself? I mean think about it, this is theory they're using:

Arturo Gatti and his wife has a dispute. He gets publicly humiliated and stoned. She threatens to take his kids away. His solution is to kill himself? Seriously? Does that sound like it makes sense to you? This is the version the Brazilian authorities are going with.

When asked if it was possible that Amanda let anyone in, the investigator says its impossible, yet gives no reason for why it is impossible. He merely concludes by saying anyone who says anything contrary to suicide is wrong, for just being wrong. Basically, his reasoning is incredibly flawed and pretty much deduces down to, "It's this way because I say it is."

I mean think about it from Amanda's point of view. Gatti beats her around in public, she humiliated and bloodied, she just signed to be the sole inheritor to Gatti's estate, their relationship is unstable and volatile anyways, I mean is it impossible she might have planned a murder? That sure as hell makes more sense to me than Gatti unable to bear the public humiliation of some smallass inconsequential Brazilian town that he'd probably never see again. The man took beatings in front of MILLIONS in the ring and all of the sudden he can't handle the backlash from an incident that probably wouldn't travel outside this town? GTFOH.

Also, the fact that Amanda Gatti acted like she was a goddamn celebrity when being released from prison doesn't vibe well with me either. I mean maybe I'm overlooking some media outlets, but I haven't heard or seen any sign of sadness or mourning that her husband and the father of her child had supposedly committed suicide. All I saw was her prancing around in a fucking Ed Hardy get-up with some Gucci sunglasses like she was signing fucking autographs. Her behavior reflects more of someone who won the lottery (I guess you could say she did since she's now entitled to $6 million dollars) rather than someone who lost a loved one.

I wasn't sure how I felt about the evidence before I watched the Real Sports episode, but the interview of that shady fuck of an investigator, coupled with the behavior of Gatti's wife makes me feel suspicious as hell about the whole thing.

Do you really think there needed to be a BAC test? Do you doubt that Gatti was drunk? He was beating on his wife and started a fight with a whole mob of people. I don't believe this incident was the sole reason why he committed suicide either. Like Valero, I'm willing to bet Gatti had severe brain damage and drug addictions which changed his personality and mental state.



The detective did give a reason for this. If memory serves me correctly, he said that the Gatti's had been in Brazil for less than 24 hours, and it simply wasn't plausible that Amanda could've coordinated a hit to kill her husband in that time frame, especially considering the fiasco that happened earlier.



Okay, so you acknowledge that the public beating happened though? This would make the witnesses credible, and it shows Gatti's state of mind at the time. Not only that, but if someone orders a hit, do you really think they would come to your hotel and then of all things hang you? I mean really, hang you? Imagine all the evidence they would leave behind to kill someone in such a complicated manner. They would most likely use a weapon like a gun, and they wouldn't arrive at the damn hotel. They would snipe you from a distance. And who was involved anyway? Who were the assassins? Surely someone would've squealed by now. Unless of course these were some high class powerful assassins that are all business-like who don't say a word and don't leave a shred of evidence behind. Yeah, I doubt Amanda has connections like that. And I imagine it would be kinda hard to hang Arturo Gatti up on a staircase too. There would be signs of a struggle, and there weren't any, only the injuries he sustained from the mob fight (which you acknowledged occurred).

As for Amanda's attitude afterwards...well, if Gatti was as abusive as it appears, and she was about to spend the rest of her life in prison for a crime she didn't do, then I imagine she would be a little relieved and happy after the truth came out.

I also believe Gatti killed himself so his wife would find him dead like that. He probably wanted her to be devastated, and it was his final way of saying "Fuck you, bitch." I have heard of similar suicide stories where the husband wants his wife to find him dead, so he kills himself in the home. A man who doesn't want his family to find him dead will usually kill himself far from home in the woods. But that's a different topic...

I didn't know Gatti had that many issues, honestly as far as the relationship went.


I mean, it would make sense that he commited suicide when you take into account possible brain damage and intoxication.


I don't think she could have "hanged" Gatti by herself. Gatti was a considerably bigger guy. If she had something to do with it, then she must have hired someone or something to help her which in a country like Brazil, is pretty easy to do, especially considering that she speaks the language and has alot of money.


The Forrest case was just sad. Heartwrenching

If they did anything besides a hanging, then they couldn't put it off as a suicide, which is the entire reason why I think it's a cover up.

it's not likely that gatti was hung at all. he was hit in the head with a blunt object and choked to death with the purse strap. since it's really hard to choke yourself (you pass out before you can finish) they make up the excuse that he hung himself. if he was really drunk like they said he was it's not likely he would be in the condition to hang himself. most suicides of that nature are usually done stone cold sober. if he was drunk and wanted to commit suicide it's much more likely he would have jumped or shot himself.

For the me, the explanation of the cut on the back of the head being caused by a public stoning and reopening as he hit the ground makes sense for me. What doesn't make any sense is why he would want to commit suicide in the first place. I mean the cuts and bruises from the public dispute could still hold true had he been murdered. What I agree most with this post is that had Gatti really been drunk and emotional (which he has no history of), why he would go through such measures as to hang himself rather than a much easier and just as devastating method of suicide.

Again, the explanation is that Gatti was so drunk that suicide appeared rational to him, yet they conducted no alcohol test? And on top of that, gave no reason? Sure there's hearsay, but hearsay is hearsay. Facts are facts. Why didn't they collect them when the opportunity was there?

Glad this topic was brought up.

NOBODY should be questioning Baden...the guy has decades of expertise in the area of post mordem studies. The LAPD has always hated him because he did not go in there and cover up for their TOTAL INEPT handling of that case.

The guy is about as level handed as one can get when it comes to questions related to post mortem situations/senerios.

That being said....some of the things he brings up is common sense. A BAC is common in any case that involves homicide....with this case being ruled a homicide at the outset...there is no valid excuse for that simple test not being conducted.

NOW....based on what I saw in the story.

First of all...the sheer amount of blood.....there is so damn much it's filling up the damn motar lines between the floor tiles....that's a LOT of blood for a supposed small non leathal head wound. If you look at the towel that they claim Gatti used to "dab" the blood on his head.....it would have been pure crimson if the same amount he lost on the floor was what he was dabbing at.

That shit totally does not wash.

Also....for the Detective to simply dismiss that the GF could not have gotten anybody to help her because that "had only been there for a short time and knew nobody" (something along those lines)....the jackoff must have forgotten that this was her HOMETOWN!

I don't know about most of you....but I have tons of contacts in my "hometown"...a few of which I've known for years and would help me do quite a bit of shifty shit...if I so chose to.....this girl is no different than the rest of us....

to act as if she could not possibly have any contacts in that town is simply BS.

I'm also curious as to if they actually tested any of the blood they found on the upstairs bedroom....they just sort of toss it out as fact that the blood on the bed was the whores...BUT...is that a FACT? Was that tested against both their blood to insure that as a fact?

Also...the legature marks on the neck absolutely do NOT match up with that purse strap....NOW...I do believe that the balistics test that showed the purse strap had been use don the stairs is legit....BUT...how hard would it be to kill the guy via choke with a rope...and THEN do a mock purse strap hanging post mortem to throw cops off? You just make sure you leave with the real noose and your off.

Also....as with any shifty motive....$$$$$

The guy signed her off for all his money 3 weeks prior....and she was a F'N STRIPPER before they met....is there any real question as to IF she had motive....

anybody who has dated a stripper KNOWS what I'm talking about!


IMHO....there are way too many question marks and way too much money at stake for this one to be an open and shut suicide.

And let's not forget this took place in Brazil.....a 3rd world country whose cops AND detectives are not above a nice fat payoff.

I don't know man, it seems too far-fetched to me. And Gatti does have a history of being drunk and emotional. Back in 1997, he was charged with drunk driving and assaulting a police officer. Gatti had been charged with eluding the police, resisting arrest, making terroristic threats and aggravated assault. http://www.nytimes.com/1997/07/10/sports/c...ml?pagewanted=1



Gatti's death was definitely due to a hanging. This was determined by both autopsies. I remember reading they could tell based on the blood in the lower extremities.



What about the Phil Spector trial? Baden's wife was legal co-counsel for Spector at the time, and Baden was reportedly paid $250,000. Or the Crystallynn Girard case where Baden saved a New York DA from a multimillion lawsuit. http://www.refugeesunleashed.net/about13691.html



Agreed, even though it's been reported Gatti had seven cans of beer, along with two bottles of wine, over the course of dinner and partying at a bar. http://www.dailytidings.com/apps/pbcs.dll/...0310/-1/NEWSMAP



Well, where do you think the blood came from? Gatti fell from over 7 feet from the ground. Obviously, he used the towel to dab at the wound before he fell from the staircase. Makes sense to me.



I personally don't have any friends that could pull a murder like this off and not leave a trace of evidence. And saying that the Brazilian authorities are corrupt isn't really proof of anything. Do you know these cops personally?

Once again, BOTH autopsies proved that Gatti's death was due to a hanging, not a choking. It was proven that he died from his body being suspended in the air by the neck. The forensics proved that the purse strap was used on the stair column.

I was a fan of Gatti too. But these incredible theories just aren't realistic.

And NONE of those are warning signs of a suicidal person. Those are warning signs of someone dangerous to others.

Like I said earlier, I actually think all the explanations about the head gash, bruises, towel, even upstairs blood could be viable. Let's just give it to the Brazilian authorities. Whatever. But none of that supports the argument that Gatti killed himself. All of those events could still have happened had he been murdered.

What's more likely: Being drunk and pissed off after a public stoning ready to go back and beat your wife (a scenario which the past incidents you mentioned above would support) or being drunk and pissed off so he kills himself out of shame and embarrassment? Please tell me ANYTHING in Gatti's personal history or past that would support that second scenario and PLEASE don't say "Well nobody knows Gatti except Gatti". That is such a fucking cop-out argument, especially in light of a past history, which you provided, that would suggest he would react differently to the situation.

I don't know enough about the Spector case to make any real opinion on it in any way.

What was reported.....does not equal the proof that a simple BAC would have given you. And let's not act like people that may have taken part in the stoning don't have reason to lie.

I think you misunderstand what I'm saying about the towel. What I'm saying is that in the crime scene photo...the blood on the towel is not in proportion for how much came out after he supposedly re-opened the gash from the fall....if they are saying he re-opened the gash after the fall....you would lose about the same amount of blood (actually less since it's postmortem and your heart is not beating) as when you were dabbing the gash the entire damn floor is covered with blood...if he had been losing that same amount while using the towel.....I'm saying the towel itself would have been pure crimson...not with a few pink patterns as it was in the photo.

I don't know the cops personally....but I am very aware of the "criminal justice" system below the American border from Mexico to SA and if you honestly believe that pay offs are not business as usual ....you are lying to yourself.

All of that you claim was "proven".....but what was not proven...was that Gatti did it to himself....and that's where the questions come in.

I was a fan too....but that has NOTHING to do with why I question this case. I was always on the fence about it...UNTIL I saw the real sports story and got to see the crime scene photos....

I still say blood samples on the bed should have been tested and it's very strange that many simple standard tests were not conducted....for sure with such a high profile death.

People who are dangerous to others are also a danger to themselves. That's criminal psychology 101.

You think the Brazilian authorities are right about everything else, but incorrect about the suicide ruling...and you have no proof at all to back up your theory. That's not very logical.

Like I said before, I don't think this sole incident was the primary reason he killed himself. I believe it was a combination of things. Gatti's career had crashed, and he probably had serious brain damage combined with drug and alcohol problems. Financial problems, his marriage was failing, his wife was going to leave him, and he may have faced jail time for his actions that night. The bottom line is, he was not in a stable frame of mind that night. I think it is more of a cop-out to say "It was a cover-up, Brazil is shady as fuck" when there is evidence directly pointing to a suicide. That is irrational, and it sounds like someone who doesn't want to believe Gatti killed himself.



I disagree about the towel. Like any wound, it will stop bleeding after a while. It can be reopened though if force or trauma is applied to it. When Gatti returned to the hotel, the bleeding was under control. When Gatti fell 7 feet from the staircase, the wound hit the floor and reopened. The wound probably expanded when it hit the floor too. Gatti had only just recently died, so there would still be a large supply of blood, especially in the head region.

There is evidence that he committed suicide, and no evidence at all that he was murdered. Yeah, yeah, unless it was all covered up and the evidence was wiped away. But think about it for a moment. How could anyone pull this off? You think some men came in there and actually hanged Arturo Gatti? We know Gatti would've fought them like all hell. Yet somehow these men were able to loop a strap around his neck, lift him up in the air, loop it around the stair column, and then let him hang. There was no rope around Gatti's arms or legs, so I guess these men pulled him down by the arms and legs so Gatti couldn't move. How strong was that strap again? I mean come on...this would be hard to accomplish against anyone, especially Gatti. And there were no signs of a struggle. As far as we know, those blood samples were tested because how else did they know it was Amanda's blood?

The police investigation might not have been perfect, but I believe enough evidence was gathered to confirm a suicide. I'm still waiting to see some proof of a murder.

Actually it's not. The two are mutually exclusive. One does not guarantee the other.


What proof do you have that the contrary happened? My point is that everything they reported happening, i.e. the bruises caused by public beating, the wound reopening from the falling on the ground, the towel, could still be true had it been a murder. NONE of those things point to a suicide.


That is pure speculation. There is nothing in his past history that would suggest a stronger case for a suicide rather than a murder. Please explain the evidence directly pointing to a suicide.


With his wife walking away with 6 million dollars, it doesn't appear that the Gatti family was facing any financial problems. And in light of all the obstacles he was facing, he could have just as easily went through a divorce, and faced his day in court. What specific evidence convinces you that Gatti took his own life in the midst of all these things?

Obviously none of know what really happened, BUT man does it seem shady to me after watching it. I just hope the truth can one day come out of this.

Here is some of the evidence that points to a suicide:

-Both autopsy reports (the one done in Brazil and the one done in Canada) determined that he was suspended and hanged.
-The ligature used was from the hotel room (purse strap).
-Markings on the stairwell show that Gatti was suspended with the purse strap.
-No signs of foul play.
-No other fingerprints found on Gatti or the purse strap.
-There was no sign of forced entry and the electronic locks on the apartment indicated only Gatti and his wife had entered it. http://boxing.fanhouse.com/2009/07/18/suic...ro-gatti-death/
-No witnesses or hotel workers saw anyone else entering or leaving the room.
-Investigators determined the time frame of what the Gatti's were doing in Brazil and concluded that it wasn't possible for such an elaborate hit to be coordinated in such a short period of time.

Circumstantial evidence:

-Huge fight in public between Gatti and wife. Crowd gets involved. Gatti obviously acting out of his mind.
-Gatti has a history of being violent and crazy.
-Gatti has a history with alcohol and drugs.
-Gatti more than likely has significant brain damage from so many brutal fights.

When I mentioned financial problems, I admit I was speculating there. The money the wife received was based on the life insurance though, which doesn't necessarily reflect how much was in Gatti's bank account.

I'm willing to bet that brain damage was the primary factor that caused Gatti to commit suicide. I don't know the extent of it, so I'm speculating here too. But I think you and I both know how brutal Gatti's fights were. He took some horrific shots to the head for many years. Do you really doubt that he had some brain damage? Gatti was exceptionally brave in the ring, but that has nothing to do with suffering through brain damage or clinical depression. Throw in drugs and/or alcohol and there's no telling what a person can do.

Now, let me ask you. What evidence do you have that makes you so sure that Gatti was murdered?

does it matter that the strap that he supposedly used to hang himself snapped after 5 secs with only 80lbs of weight attached to it?? so exactly how did he hang himself?? pretty simple question that the detective didnt have an answer for.

plus he called pat english the day he died and told him that it was a mess down there and that hes coming back.

i believe gatti was killed. arguello looks like he committed suicide though. and vernon forrest was very stupid to chase after those guys. no championship ring is worth dying over.

^^^^I don't think there's a definitive answer here because none of this shit is clear IMO. Too many holes from both sides of the equation.


I think its possible Gatti was killed too but I find it hard to believe that she was capable of doing it herself. I think she had to have had some help and nobody reported any sightings of someone entering Gatti's room other than Gatti and his wife.


Its unsolved and I can see why. And yes I do know that in Brazil the law is very corrupt and has had a history of that.


But if Gatti was not hung, then how else could he have died?

Most of these could still hold true had it been a murder. The ones in bold are completely subjective and/or easily explained.

1) What is "foul play" and what constitutes evidence on such a subjective definition?
2) Latex gloves could have been used.
3) Unless there was a night watchman guarding their room, people could have easily gone in without being seen. It's not unfathomable that some people slip by the attention of a few night staffers. It happens all the time in hotel rooms everywhere in the world, why not this one?
4) Investigator's determination based on what? If it's true that this was the wife's hometown, such a hit could be coordinated within a couple of hours really. This is again another subjective estimation.


Again none of this suggests suicide. In fact, I would argue it's more probably that Gatti would beat his wife, as he had in the past. What would make Gatti act any differently in this instance?


The thing is, the evidence is just a record of what happened that night. It doesn't definitively prove a suicide or a murder; it really could had been either one. But after watching the Real Sports segments - particularly the interview with the Brazilian investigator, and the reaction of Gatti's wife - doesn't make the story sit well with me. Overall the point is that you can't use any of the evidence you presented because it doesn't strengthen the argument for a suicide just as it doesn't strengthen an argument for murder, which is why I don't refer to any it. What DOES strengthen the argument for murder are:

1) The inexplicable absence of a typically standard BAC examination.
2) The estrangulation mark on Gatti's neck being significantly slimmer than that of the purse strap
3) The "coincidental" martial agreement three week prior that resulted in a 6 million dollar inheritance.

How do you explain those?

Evidence...for you maybe. Not enough for me....and a lot of other folks it seems.

And let me tell you man.....when you have a STRIPPER involved....YES...what you laid out is very possible. If you had ever dated one or know somebody that has....you would see that as a HUGe motive.....strippers and large sums of money involved in a death....yeah...something will most likely be rotten in Denmark.

Although Gatti was a pro boxer...he was not a huge man....and being MEGA drunk on top of that....I could easily see two huge strip club bouncer like goons helping some whore out for cash.

I disagree about the samples being tested.....he never stated that they were...he just said it was her blood....no matter if you believe it or not....you have to admit the investigator that spoke on the program....made a shitload of generalizations.

I don't think you are waiting....I think you firmly believe this was a suicide...and that's your right to hold that opinion.

BUT....I really don't see how anybody can take it at face value...not with all of the money, motive, types of folks involved, history of the people involved, photographs.....

But that is your right.

How can you say none of this suggests suicide?? And you can't just gloss it over and look at a single reason and say it doesn't point to a suicide. It's the combination of all of the factors. You have to put the pieces of the puzzle together, you can't just look at a single piece.

Foul play would be injuries from a struggle, broken furniture, blood/DNA/fingerprints from other suspects, etc. You know what foul play is. And the hotel they were staying at was a very classy hotel too. (http://www.dorisol.com.br/dorisol-porto-galinhas/hotel.html) They have 24-hour reception, and there would be more than a few night staffers there. They would also have security cameras around the hotel. I was about to call the hotel to ask, but decided it would be inappropriate and expensive.

What other hotels has an incident like this happened before? Show me some examples. A homicide where the assailants hanged their victim and then left undetected. I want to see some links because I can show you many examples of hotel suicides. Starting with David Carradine. (Some people believe Carradine was killed by secret ninjas too, but that's another story.)



No, the evidence is not just a record of what happened that night. It's backed by two autopsy reports, forensics on the stairwell, a purse strap, a time frame, and no signs of foul play.

1) Does it really matter if a BAC test was conducted? What will this really prove one way or another?
2) I have already given my opinion on Baden's credibility, and without actually being able to examine the purse strap it's hard to comment on. It's possible that the center section of the purse strap was tighter than the outer section. It also depends on how he tied the strap. If the purse strap wasn't used why was it near him and covered in blood? Where was the other ligature?
3) Like you said, it could just be coincidental. Or maybe Gatti had been planning to commit suicide, and he wanted to make sure his children would be raised with money.

Also, how did Amanda plan the hit anyway? I guess the phone conversation went like this:

"Hey, can you come over to the hotel and kill my husband?"
"Okay. How do you want us to do it?"
"Make it look like a suicide."
"Well, I guess we could hang him. Does anyone have any rope? No? Shit.."
"No worries, I have a purse strap you can use!"
"A purse strap? That's brilliant, why didn't I think of that!"

Or maybe:

"A purse strap? Well, actually we do have a rope."
"But it needs to look like a suicide!"
"Ok, this is what we will do. We will hang him up with the rope. Then after 3-4 hours, we will take him down, and then we will hang him back up with the purse strap to make it look more like a suicide. They won't be able to tell the difference in the autopsy."

Do you see how absurd that sounds?




Well, until I see some solid evidence that points to a murder, I am inclined to believe it was a suicide. Regardless of what happened to him, it's still very tragic. Whether it be suicide or murder, it was totally unnecessary. It didn't have to end like that.

Like I said before, all of those things could have still happened, together, and still had been a murder. Putting them together doesn't make them anymore a suicide or a murder.


I wasn't talking about another murder happening in another hotel, I was talking about someone sneaking into a hotel room without the staff knowing, whether it be performing a hired assassination, or just sneaking in a non-paying guest to sleep over the paid room capacity. People sneak into rooms all the time for whatever reason; we just tend not to think about it as much when the consequences are not as drastic.


The autopsy, as you stated, revealed hanging and strangulation, which could be true in BOTH a suicide and a murder. I don't see what part of that is so hard to understand here. It's true for the forensics on the stairwell, purse strap and time frame as well.


My concern isn't what it would show, it's why it wasn't taken in the first place, especially if it's usually a standard. The shifty and incomplete answer the investigator gave only heightened my suspicions.


It sounds absurd because you made it up to sound that way. What's more absurd is you actually using it to back your argument.

Do you see how you're reaching though with the murder theory? Do you at least acknowledge that suicide is a more likely possibility?




Sneaking into a hotel room to commit a murder is a little different, don't you think? It would be heavily investigated, along with video surveillance and personnel. The Gatti incident was investigated, and they ultimately decided there wasn't a murder since there wasn't any proof of it.




Hanging and suspension, and there was no evidence that he was strangled by someone else. No evidence at all. And it doesn't fit the time frame. For such a well-executed hit to occur, it would take a long time to plan. But hey, it was all a cover-up right? Even though everything the Brazilian authorities have concluded checks out. Even the autopsy report done in Canada is consistent with the autopsy done in Brazil. Maybe Canada is part of the cover-up too.




Dude, what does it matter?? It's just an alcohol test that has no bearing on this case at all. Everyone acknowledges Gatti had been drinking that night. You keep pointing this out as if it totally undermines the Brazilian investigation.




Isn't that what you are saying though? The autopsy reports have stated that Gatti was suspended for at least 3 hours before he fell to the floor. So if the purse strap wasn't used, then they would've had to suspend him with a rope for 3 hours. Then I guess they took him down and put him back up with the purse strap. That's just ridiculous.

By the way, hired murders have a crucial flaw. Murder for hire leaves a paper trail even if does not leave evidence at the site of the crime. And guess what? Nothing has surfaced.

This topic is starting to depress me a lot. I'm not sure I'm going to continue this discussion anymore. I believe it was a suicide, and I've said all I needed to say. Regardless of what you believe, it was still a tragic death of a great fighter.

We can agree on that.

no, the money would have to be from his estate. if you commit suicide the insurance companies don't pay.

i also believe that this stripper didnt need any help killing gatti. you dont need to be strong to choke a man that is passed out drunk. especially after clocking him over the head with something. let this be a lesson to everybody, dont marry strippers.

Well...and it's simple leverage. If you think about it....the space between the wall and the wood stair beam is pretty small....even a small whore could brace her back against the wall...and then brace her feet against the wood plank on the other side....and then pull with all her body weight with her legs fully planted.

She might not be able to hold onto a man Gatti's size for an hour or more...but it only takes a few seconds to get the job done.

I'm more inclined to think she got male help...but....a money grubbing stripper whore could pull it off knowing what amount was at stake.

damn... this was a good read... lol..

Really great show.

My only complaint about the show/journalism on it was the photos of Gatti's dead body. I thought that was an unnecessary invasion of privacy.

Good point. I was shocked that they showed those photos. Really disturbing.

A lot of great points, JLuv. Don't forget that this bitch came down to Brazil DAYS before Gatti got there. This could have EASILY been arranged w plenty of time to spare...ESPECIALLY w the promise of money to those shady motherfuckers down in Brazil. If you pass out drunk down there, you'll wake up on a bed of ice with your liver and kidneys missing (and likely already sold on the black market.

Also, JL, remember that they did a forensic test with the strap holding the equivalent of Gatti's weight, and it laster mere seconds before it snapped. The Brazilian police claimed Gatti hung for HOURS.

I dont know if any of you saw the video of Valero dead in his cell that was posted by the boys over at Maxboxing, but that cat hung himself and there was NO blood. As you astutely point out, JLuv, Arturo was in a fucking POOL of that shit. getting hit in the head w rocks does NOT create gushing wounds like that. Instead you get the kinds of wound that swell, and bleed from a small wound from the swelling. I've been hit in the head with rocks or hard objects before and I have seen guys get hit. you just dont bleed like that.

I'll forever not believe that bitch is innocent. That ear to ear smile she had on her face as she was released from jail - that bitch acted like she was walking the red carpet to the Oscars. She DEFINITELY DID NOT have the look of a grieving widow who had lost her beloved husband and was overly stressed from the ordeal of being imprisoned.

I've spent 48 hours in the Tombs in NYC, and trust me, when you get out, yeah, you're relieved, but you're not shit-eating-grinning.