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JD
A little over two years ago, Zab Judah tried to do the same thing with Shane Mosley but did not get as far...

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?sectio...&id=3311562

One of Judah's managers, Michael Shinefield, said he sent an e-mail two weeks ago to Golden Boy Promotions, which represents Mosley, calling for blood testing for both fighters. Golden Boy chief executive Richard Schaefer said he has not responded to that e-mail, but that Mosley will agree to any tests required by the Nevada Athletic Commission.

"Whatever tests they want them to take, Shane will submit to that. We are not going to do other tests than the Nevada commission requires," Schaefer said. "The fact is Shane is not a cheater and he does not need to be treated like one."


Interesting to see it all play out over time.
salvador
For all of Floyd's talk about legacy, this really might end up being his stamp on the sport.

Stepping back and looking at the sport from 30,000 ft., taking a multi-decade view, Floyd could end up being as important to boxing as the first director who insisted that all his porn stars wear condoms is to adult cinema. It's history, man.


JD
Poor Zab...kinda feeling like Amerigo Vespucci.
salvador
nice
thehype
Michael Shinefield is in jail now I believe.

laugh.gif
Snoop
QUOTE (JD @ May 13 2010, 12:49 PM) *
Poor Zab...kinda feeling like Amerigo Vespucci.

LMAO
D-MARV
"Money Talks"
King Eugene
I still wouldn't mind seeing Judah vs. Mosley on WCB. Too bad Judah went back down to 140
EpTXCHAMP
QUOTE (King Eugene @ May 13 2010, 10:40 AM) *
I still wouldn't mind seeing Judah vs. Mosley on WCB. Too bad Judah went back down to 140

Zab going to 140 is best for him I think his power is will be alot more effective there
Col Reb
QUOTE (JD @ May 13 2010, 07:15 AM) *
A little over two years ago, Zab Judah tried to do the same thing with Shane Mosley but did not get as far...

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?sectio...&id=3311562

One of Judah's managers, Michael Shinefield, said he sent an e-mail two weeks ago to Golden Boy Promotions, which represents Mosley, calling for blood testing for both fighters. Golden Boy chief executive Richard Schaefer said he has not responded to that e-mail, but that Mosley will agree to any tests required by the Nevada Athletic Commission.

"Whatever tests they want them to take, Shane will submit to that. We are not going to do other tests than the Nevada commission requires," Schaefer said. "The fact is Shane is not a cheater and he does not need to be treated like one."


Interesting to see it all play out over time.


Nice analogy! I wonder how Floyd will be viewed in 20 years. With all of this talk, Nevada needs to step to the plate. I don't like the Olympic people in charge of anything; I just don't trust them.
Hops
They are stepping up. They're conducting hearings in the same way they've done it for instant replay. So the guinea pigs are Floyd and his followers.
Method
The commissions should stipulate the rules. PERIOD. No fighter (or promoter) should be able to stipulate rules superseding the commission. Period. This is a real sport w real rules. This isn't Pro Wrestling w loser leave town shit, or any gimmicky bullshit. Next thing you know someone will come along wanting to stipulate Olympic style scoring, or head gear, or what the fuck ever. If the Commissions decide to enact blood testing, FINE. But NO individual fighter should be able to dictate the rules. Thats my opinion.
Snoop
I can empathize with the argument that fighters only be obligated to rules stipulated by the commission, but in this case the NSAC has repeatedly let drug cheats slip through in the sport and have done NOTHING about it. I'm all for rules being set by a governing organization rather than an individual fighter, but using the example of an individual fighter to get that governing organization to wake the fuck up is fine by me too.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (Snoop @ May 14 2010, 10:56 PM) *
I can empathize with the argument that fighters only be obligated to rules stipulated by the commission, but in this case the NSAC has repeatedly let drug cheats slip through in the sport and have done NOTHING about it. I'm all for rules being set by a governing organization rather than an individual fighter, but using the example of an individual fighter to get that governing organization to wake the fuck up is fine by me too.


Provided you agree with what the fighter is asking for. If Floyd was demanding each fighter eat a box of wheaties on the day of the fight then I'd guess you'd oppose it. OK so maybe an extreme example but Method makes the point, you give into one fighter over an issue (no matter how relevant the issue is) then where do you stop?

I personally think it is a good idea, however I give Fraud Maywaether no credit. Why? Because do you really think he'd be enforcing this shit if a boxer called Manny Pacquaio didn't exist? Where was he during the earlier or previous part of his career on this issue? Does he really believe that Manny is the first guy he has ever faced that has juiced? No just the first guy that he has faced that he thinks has a chance of beating him.

Sorry but his hypocritical shit is too far fetched for me to ever take him seriously.
JD
This was basically what I argued in a previous thread.

Look, no one is saying that implementing this or some spinoff version of this type drug testing is bad, what people are saying is that it needs to come from the commission - not a fighter. This one-off, random approach stuff does more to hurt the sport than help it. It needs to be a top down approach, and before long, other commissions will follow suit. As of right now, what you have is one fighter telling another fighter that they need to do something that is not part of the rulebook for any commission if they want the fighter. Even Keith Kizer recognizes that there are issues and the chance for infection or illness. Does it need to be exactly what Floyd wants? No...like I said, it could be something similar. If it were solely about cleaning up the sport, Mayweather Promotions would have mandated that every fighter on the May 1st card was subject to random testing.

I go back and forth on whether Floyd and Pac will come to some sort of agreement on this...do they come to a middle ground? Do they end up with some sort of give and take? Or, does Nevada change their rules because they want the fight for Vegas that badly? It is going to be interesting.
salvador
QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ May 15 2010, 10:17 AM) *
I call BULLSHIT!

Boxing commissions (especially in Nevada) do what they are forced to do.

PBF, Mosley, Ward and Green are forcing the issue.


I couldn't agree more.

I really can't understand how anyone could see this any other way. How many of the top fighters over the past 2 decades have been there because of roids? How many people got cheated by roid users and lost and had their careers go south?

The whole sport is totally corrupt and Nevada is one of the commissions that keeps hiring all these crooked judges. The promoters/managers/networks and fighters are all benefitting from a system that favors the connected.

It's preposterous to argue that any fighter who is getting punched in the face for a living shouldn't be able to be absolutely certain that the other guy isn't artificially juiced.

The commissions need to change the rules. If it's too expensive, then maybe it should be the networks/casinos/promoters/whoever, but the idea that anyone could be getting in the ring with a James Toney when he's roided up, or, God Forbid Mike Tyson on roids is insane.

And yes, Pac is as roided up as Barry Bonds. It's obvious.

Seriously, Floyd's stance on this is making me like him a whole lot more every day.
salvador
QUOTE (JD @ May 15 2010, 07:56 AM) *
If it were solely about cleaning up the sport, Mayweather Promotions would have mandated that every fighter on the May 1st card was subject to random testing.

I go back and forth on whether Floyd and Pac will come to some sort of agreement on this...do they come to a middle ground? Do they end up with some sort of give and take? Or, does Nevada change their rules because they want the fight for Vegas that badly? It is going to be interesting.


Mayweather needs to look out for himself first. I've heard that boxers can't get health insurance. Steroids make the sport even more dangerous and given that there's a way to test for them, it makes absolutely no sense that a fighter should be subjected to any additional risk to his health/like than is necessary.

Pac won't fight Floyd if there's olympic style testing. Even with roids he gets abused. Without roids Pac gets slaughtered.
Snoop
QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ May 15 2010, 01:47 PM) *
Provided you agree with what the fighter is asking for. If Floyd was demanding each fighter eat a box of wheaties on the day of the fight then I'd guess you'd oppose it. OK so maybe an extreme example but Method makes the point, you give into one fighter over an issue (no matter how relevant the issue is) then where do you stop?

I personally think it is a good idea, however I give Fraud Maywaether no credit. Why? Because do you really think he'd be enforcing this shit if a boxer called Manny Pacquaio didn't exist? Where was he during the earlier or previous part of his career on this issue? Does he really believe that Manny is the first guy he has ever faced that has juiced? No just the first guy that he has faced that he thinks has a chance of beating him.

Sorry but his hypocritical shit is too far fetched for me to ever take him seriously.

Well fuck it has to be within reason. I mean if he started asking them to eat a box of wheaties or some other nonsensical shit I doubt Mayweather would be having the support he is having now. I mean I've gone over this so many times, but why isn't there the same outrage when Pacquaio demands things to go his way, especially when his demands do NOTHING towards bettering the sport.

I see the argument that the sport needs to be dictated by some sort of commission, not by fighters, but in this sole, particular case, the fighter is right and the commission is and HAS BEEN sleeping on this issue for way too long. There needs to be some reform and nothing seemed to be pushing it.

I mean for all those arguing that commissions need to institute reform, how do you suggest getting them started since they haven't for so long?
Method
As for Paq and whether he is clean or not, I dont know enough to say anything one way or the other, and I dont believe anyone else here does either.

HOWEVER, I will say this - It would seem to me that the Mayweathers have done PLENTY to ignite Team Paq to file a libel suit, and it perplexes me to NO END that they haven't, ESPECIALLY if they're clean.
salvador
QUOTE (Method @ May 15 2010, 12:27 PM) *
As for Paq and whether he is clean or not, I dont know enough to say anything one way or the other, and I dont believe anyone else here does either.


Nobody knows for sure, but if you look at clips of him getting ko'd at 110 and 112 pounds and then watch clips of him walking through Cotto's best shots it does make you wonder. It is especially curious given how prevalent roids are in all pro sports combined with the fact that he refused to take the test and the fact that Roach's only other signature fighter used them.

Out of all the best boxers (athletes in every sport) of the past 20 years, just look at how many of the top guys have been using them. It's almost not even shameful if they just come clean now (though try telling that to the guys they beat).

The main point is that Floyd has every right to demand testing, as he is risking his life/health every time he walks into the ring.
Method
QUOTE (salvador @ May 15 2010, 02:31 PM) *
Nobody knows for sure, but if you look at clips of him getting ko'd at 110 and 112 pounds and then watch clips of him walking through Cotto's best shots it does make you wonder. It is especially curious given how prevalent roids are in all pro sports combined with the fact that he refused to take the test and the fact that Roach's only other signature fighter used them.

Out of all the best boxers (athletes in every sport) of the past 20 years, just look at how many of the top guys have been using them. It's almost not even shameful if they just come clean now (though try telling that to the guys they beat).

The main point is that Floyd has every right to demand testing, as he is risking his life/health every time he walks into the ring.


NO, it DOESN'T make me wonder. Use your head. It's a LOT more logical that he's getting stopped at 110 lbs than it is at a more NATURAL weight - 147. Fuck, you used Cotto in your own example, and look t how he was getting his bell rung at lighter weights.

PED's dont keep you from getting KTFO.

...Floyd has every right to demand it, just like everyone else can demand headgear, olympic style scoring, etc. After all, it's life or death. Give me a fucking break. Floyd can demand it, just like everyone can demand he eat a dick. It's not part of the rules. If I were Team Paq, I would not bow down.
JD
QUOTE (salvador @ May 15 2010, 12:08 PM) *
Mayweather needs to look out for himself first. I've heard that boxers can't get health insurance. Steroids make the sport even more dangerous and given that there's a way to test for them, it makes absolutely no sense that a fighter should be subjected to any additional risk to his health/like than is necessary.

Pac won't fight Floyd if there's olympic style testing. Even with roids he gets abused. Without roids Pac gets slaughtered.


Cool...he can look out for himself, he always has.

You talk about weight like Pac is so much bigger now...his in ring weight has been basically the same for quite a while, he is just not drying out anymore. Roach did a good job convincing people Pac was a lot smaller than he really was.

As for the prediction...well, you may have just secured a Pac W.
salvador
QUOTE (Method @ May 15 2010, 04:22 PM) *
NO, it DOESN'T make me wonder. Use your head. It's a LOT more logical that he's getting stopped at 110 lbs than it is at a more NATURAL weight - 147. Fuck, you used Cotto in your own example, and look t how he was getting his bell rung at lighter weights.

PED's dont keep you from getting KTFO.

...Floyd has every right to demand it, just like everyone else can demand headgear, olympic style scoring, etc. After all, it's life or death. Give me a fucking break. Floyd can demand it, just like everyone can demand he eat a dick. It's not part of the rules. If I were Team Paq, I would not bow down.


I have to assume that you've been drinking.
Hops
QUOTE (salvador @ May 15 2010, 07:31 PM) *
Nobody knows for sure, but if you look at clips of him getting ko'd at 110 and 112 pounds and then watch clips of him walking through Cotto's best shots it does make you wonder.


I haven't seen those clips. But I've seen him getting knockout shots from Marquez. And also, steroids didn't help Fernando Vargas grow a new sturdy chin.
Method
QUOTE (Hops @ May 15 2010, 07:07 PM) *
I haven't seen those clips. But I've seen him getting knockout shots from Marquez. And also, steroids didn't help Fernando Vargas grow a new sturdy chin.

Since you make sense, he'll have to assume you've been drinking.
JD
Look at Nate Campbell getting one-shotted and then TKO'd by Robbie Peden, who was not a puncher at 130...yet he was walking through every bomb Victor Ortiz landed.
Method
Im going to assume you've been drinking, JD.
JD
LOL...I have been drinking through this entire discussion because I don't exactly see how a fighter refusing to do something outside of commission rules indicates that they are cheating. Throw some shit out there, try to get the fighter to do something that they don't have to...and when they tell you to kindly go eff yourself, they are now cheating, it's a straw-man argument. "Well, he won't take the tests because he is dirty"...

I am not saying that a different drug testing system is bad; I am saying that the commission needs to implement it - not random fighters in random fights, that is not good for the sport.
Method
I absolutely agree. One second, JD...

"Eh, bartender...one more for me and my friend here."
JD
Thanks, you lush.
D-MARV
Pac pretty much fucked himself by making up all those stupid excuses. If team Pac would have just came out from the start and told Mayweather to go fuck himself then it wouldn't have seemed so bad. Instead Pacquiao said that he was afraid of needles, then it was "it makes me weak". Now he saying that Mayweather is bigger so it wouldn't have an effect on him... LMAO. What an idiot.
JD
I heard a lot of things come from his team, I hear a lot of things come from a lot of teams, but the only thing I have heard him say is that it makes him weak and that Floyd is bigger...and even with that, I am not exactly sure how that makes him a cheater. If you think giving blood makes you weak it will, the mental portion is huge. Personally, whenever I have given blood, I have felt totally shot afterward; I certainly was not up for doing any extraneous physical activities. Maybe you have played organized sports on a high level...maybe not...but a lot of these athletes are like that. You think something, it becomes reality.
salvador
QUOTE (Method @ May 15 2010, 04:22 PM) *
NO, it DOESN'T make me wonder. Use your head. It's a LOT more logical that he's getting stopped at 110 lbs than it is at a more NATURAL weight - 147. Fuck, you used Cotto in your own example, and look t how he was getting his bell rung at lighter weights.

PED's dont keep you from getting KTFO.

...Floyd has every right to demand it, just like everyone else can demand headgear, olympic style scoring, etc. After all, it's life or death. Give me a fucking break. Floyd can demand it, just like everyone can demand he eat a dick. It's not part of the rules. If I were Team Paq, I would not bow down.


PEDs make you stronger, including the muscles in your neck. Having a neck with the thickness and density of an oak tree helps one take a punch. Click on the link below and see the before and after pictures of Pac and check out his neck in both pics. On a pound for pound basis, the most striking difference in the photos might be his neck.

http://www.nowboxing.com/2009/12/is-pacqui...er-photos/5776/

It's hard for me to imagine that anyone would argue that taking steroids wouldn't help a fighter take a shot. And it's even harder for me to imagine that anyone could possibly look at those photos and then look at how easily Pac walked through Cotto's and Clottey's punches and not at least WONDER if he's taking steroids - particularly given how many top fighters/athletes have been found to be using them. And it's almost as difficult for me to imagine that anyone would argue that 147 is Pac's natural weight. And it's for those reasons that I questioned your sobriety.

Pac-JMM today would be a total blowout, wouldn't you agree? How is that possible in less than 2 years? Maybe it's just hard work and a good nutritionist - but maybe it isn't. Floyd has a right to know.

The fact is that boxing IS life and death. How many fighters have you seen slurring their words by 30? I have a very tough time understanding why this issue is even controversial. If there are steroids that can't be found through urine tests, then it obviously makes sense that a fighter should be able to demand blood tests - especially when his opponent literally looks like Bruce Lee on steroids and money is not an issue.



*Note: I am not the owner/creator of the website in the link above even though we share the name of salvador. Pure coincidence.
salvador
QUOTE (Hops @ May 15 2010, 06:07 PM) *
I haven't seen those clips. But I've seen him getting knockout shots from Marquez. And also, steroids didn't help Fernando Vargas grow a new sturdy chin.


Once a fighters chin has been shattered it's impossible to fix. Tito crushed Vargas' chin and no amount of steroids could fix it. That's different than Pac, whose chin was ok (not great, but not shattered either) and then suddenly when he moved up in weight his chin started looking like James Toney's.

D-MARV
QUOTE (JD @ May 16 2010, 09:58 AM) *
I heard a lot of things come from his team, I hear a lot of things come from a lot of teams, but the only thing I have heard him say is that it makes him weak and that Floyd is bigger...and even with that, I am not exactly sure how that makes him a cheater. If you think giving blood makes you weak it will, the mental portion is huge. Personally, whenever I have given blood, I have felt totally shot afterward; I certainly was not up for doing any extraneous physical activities. Maybe you have played organized sports on a high level...maybe not...but a lot of these athletes are like that. You think something, it becomes reality.

Come on JD,

Floyd agreed on a 14 day cut off. If Pacquiao is still weak after 2 weeks then there is something wrong with him. I competed at a high level of athletics and I can see if the blodd was taken 24 hours out but two weeks is plenty of time to recover. Shit, 2 days would be plenty of time to recover.
JD
QUOTE (D-MARV @ May 16 2010, 12:04 PM) *
Come on JD,

Floyd agreed on a 14 day cut off. If Pacquiao is still weak after 2 weeks then there is something wrong with him. I competed at a high level of athletics and I can see if the blodd was taken 24 hours out but two weeks is plenty of time to recover. Shit, 2 days would be plenty of time to recover.


And we all know that at that point, no one was agreeing to anything...it was a pure pissing contest on both sides. Now, the dust has settled and they have come back willing to agree to that...but that ship may have already sailed. Either way, it takes more than this for me to indict someone of something that there is no evidence of, especially when you actually look at the real weights - ceasing to suck weight can help a fighter a lot. Moreover, it was not about him being weak for 2 weeks, it was about him giving up a day during the intense sparring and training sessions.

As for the Beardo comment...like I said, if someone thinks they are weakened giving blood, they are. If I thought it was bad luck stepping on the foul line while back out to the mound, it was; because the moment I fell behind 2-0, the mind fucks with you. Athletes are a strange breed. Oh...and I choose D, none of the above...sorry, but I am more of a critical thinker.
JD
1 - They kinda did when they said no tests, they just spoke more than they had to which is not all that uncommon with boxers camps, and then came back with something that was not satisfactory for the Floyd camp.. Still, I don't see how this is proof of something.

2 - They specifically said they did not want to give blood during intense sparring. Both sides are going to have to bend, they each realize that...Floyd's team did on the cutoff date and Pac's team had to as well, but did so after they each had a fight. As I said, that ship may have sailed.

3 - If you think it is a very small percentage of athletes that think like that, you are mistaken, but regardless of percentage, if the subject at hand falls in that group that is who we are discussing. Some of it is superstition, some of it is merely being locked in on something that may or may not impact them if it were not for some belief that it did. I know that giving blood makes me tired and causes me to feel like shit because I have given blood and it did make me tired and feel like shit; perhaps if I had less of a negative view on giving blood it would not bother me like that, but it does.

4 - Critical thinking actually has to do with genuinely assessing a situation and not taking what Floyd Sr. tells me and running with it. Just because Floyd Sr. said Pac is on something, and they demanded he take tests that he otherwise would not have to by commission rule, and he declined, doesn't mean he is on something to me. I see it differently than A, B or C, as you so simply tried to approach it. We see the same situation from different sides, different experiences and with different logic...that's ok, I am not mad at you.
JD
QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ May 16 2010, 01:49 PM) *
Fair enough, JD.

My blood type is the most highly coveted (O-). I give blood often. To suggest that it does not weaken me would be disingenuous. But that is not what we are talking about here.

Humans, in general, are superstitious. A much smaller percentage (athletes or not) are irrationally superstitious. Just ask a Russian about whistling in the home. The majority of humanity is programmed from infancy with superstitions.

I know I can be an abusive bastard on here. I am pleased that you do not take what I say personally.


Nah man...it ain't personal. In the end, none of this stuff actually impacts your life or mine - outside of potentially seeing a huge fight get fucked up that is.

We see an issue differently, and I do think that feeling weak from giving blood is part of this overall discussion...I think I have the right approach, you think you have the right approach - all the back and forth in the world won't change it, and that's fine by me.

Now, this is clearly not the norm because the Floyd and Pac fanboys are straight up irate over this shit...irate and irrational. I think it is somewhere in the middle and I fault both guys and both camps, but that's me.
JD
QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ May 16 2010, 04:11 PM) *
I just want to see it happen. It could turn into a Frazier v Ali style trilogy. I do not subscribe to the perspective that it would be better for boxing if it never came off. I think that is just nonsense.

If the business end of boxing is really interested in their product returning to the 1st tier of sports, this fight will be made this year. Unfortunately, I think the promoters are too busy managing risk to do what is best for boxing.


I agree wholeheartedly that I would much rather see it come off...if it came off and delivered, it would be a HUGE boost for the sport. Maybe we get 2 or 3 fights out of it. If it ends up not coming off, it would be bad for the sport and an extreme disappointment.

That said, I am not sure it does. Sad, but true.
neophyte7
IF PBF WAS accused roids and refused testing using the excuses Pac has... he would be the Barry Bonds of boxing... his career would likely suffer. Pac could have and should have dispelled these suspicions months ago. Seems very fishy on his part.
Method
The blood you give is replensished w in hours of giving it.
Method
QUOTE (neophyte7 @ May 16 2010, 07:11 PM) *
IF PBF WAS accused roids and refused testing using the excuses Pac has... he would be the Barry Bonds of boxing... his career would likely suffer. Pac could have and should have dispelled these suspicions months ago. Seems very fishy on his part.


Poor analogy. Bonds was linked to Balco, Manny WAS NOT!
Method
QUOTE (salvador @ May 16 2010, 11:32 AM) *
Once a fighters chin has been shattered it's impossible to fix. Tito crushed Vargas' chin and no amount of steroids could fix it. That's different than Pac, whose chin was ok (not great, but not shattered either) and then suddenly when he moved up in weight his chin started looking like James Toney's.


AS did Cotto's. Guess Cotto is a juicer too.

Salvador, if you REALLY think a man's natural weight is closer to 110 pounds, then this conversation is over, as you are clueless.
Hops
JD and SmartyBeardo,

You both have valid points. But would it be possible that you're debating on things which aren't the real reasons the fight fell down? I mean, Arum could have convinced Pac to agree to the 14 days cutoff but he didn't. Maybe there was something else going on in the discussions. We don't have any transcript of their conversations with NSAC remember? There are some other things like the venue - Arum wanted it at Cowboy's while GBP seemed to be locked on to Vegas. And this is just one thing. Arum might have wanted Pac out of his GBP %. So, basically, Arum fucked up.
JD
I mean...I think all points are negotiable, even if neither side (or both sides) is not negotiating in good faith in an effort to punt the fight at that moment. What isn't negotiable is the dislike that exists between Arum and Floyd / Ellerbe. It is mutual and I think it compounds smaller issues 10 fold...things that might be sorted with a little behind the scenes back and forth become monumental.

So speaking to your point...sure, I can definitely see the fight falling apart over things outside of what we are all discussing.
Method
QUOTE (Hops @ May 16 2010, 08:25 PM) *
JD and SmartyBeardo,

You both have valid points. But would it be possible that you're debating on things which aren't the real reasons the fight fell down? I mean, Arum could have convinced Pac to agree to the 14 days cutoff but he didn't. Maybe there was something else going on in the discussions. We don't have any transcript of their conversations with NSAC remember? There are some other things like the venue - Arum wanted it at Cowboy's while GBP seemed to be locked on to Vegas. And this is just one thing. Arum might have wanted Pac out of his GBP %. So, basically, Arum fucked up.

GBP wanted Vegas b/c they get carte blanche in vegas, plus lydocain injections in the hand re legal.
Fitz
QUOTE (Method @ May 17 2010, 10:02 AM) *
AS did Cotto's. Guess Cotto is a juicer too.

Salvador, if you REALLY think a man's natural weight is closer to 110 pounds, then this conversation is over, as you are clueless.


110 would have been Pacquiao's natural weight at that age, he was a kid. Cotto was struggling to make weight which weakened him, Pacquiao on the other hand has never struggled to make weight, he even turned down Morales offer to fight at 135 for the second fight and wanted it at 130. Which goes to show how comfortable he was at making weight.

I see exactly what salvador is saying, the fact is. Pacquiao is beating Cotto, Hatton, DLH and Clottey easier than he beat Marquez and Morales. Cotto, Hatton, DLH and Clottey also have not been as physically imposing as the smaller Marquez and Morales. A while ago, Manny made a comment like "I don't even know what steroids are". Which is a pretty stupid thing to say, because NOBODY believes someone is that naive or stupid.
He has also changed his stance/reasoning several times on why he doesn't want tests. Pacquiao also started doing this as already an adult, a guy pushing into his 30's. Not quite like a young kid like Khan or someone who is moving up as their body matures. Pacquiao was already a mature adult and it wasn't just one or two divisions he was moving up. Generally you see guys like Marquez, Wright, Trinidad, DLH that move up several divisions, and they start to look a little soft in the body or not quite filled out. Asians being generally petite kind of people, Pacquiao hasn't shown any of that, he is all pure muscle. Nothing lost.

That said, I will never downgrade Pacquiao's accomplishments by saying he is guilty or hold it against him because he is innocent until proven guilty. I just have my suspicions and I think people that may be 'suspicious' certainly have merit to their suspicions.

alaganza
QUOTE (Method @ May 14 2010, 10:22 PM) *
The commissions should stipulate the rules. PERIOD. No fighter (or promoter) should be able to stipulate rules superseding the commission. Period. This is a real sport w real rules. This isn't Pro Wrestling w loser leave town sh*, or any gimmicky bullsh*. Next thing you know someone will come along wanting to stipulate Olympic style scoring, or head gear, or what the fu* ever. If the Commissions decide to enact blood testing, FINE. But NO individual fighter should be able to dictate the rules. Thats my opinion.


Meth this is a sensible argument. However, there is always a player that comes along to force a rule change. The 3 second and offensive goal tending rules were inacted in the NBA because of Wilt. That crappy tuck rule was enacted because of the bogus call with Tom Brady in the NFL.

I agree wholeheartedly with your statement above. I just think that this is the case where the fighters are pushing the rule change.
Fitz
I'm happy about no fighters should be changing rules, and we should have rules in place. Problem is, the same guy is making weight classes with a catch weight (Pacquiao isn't the only one) when we have rules that give us weight classes, we have fighters requesting different size gloves, different size rings, penalties for coming in over weight and so on.
We need all fighters to just obey rules and do what told, or we can continue to do what we do now, have negotiations about some rules. We need one or the other, not some rules that are ok and others that aren't so much. If it's not ok for someone to negotiate drug testing, then I don't think it should be ok for someone to negotiate catch weights for title fights, the size of the ring, gloves and so on.
If fighters want a standard from one of the governing bodies, they must follow the standard in other areas. Simple as that for me.
Snoop
QUOTE (Fitz @ May 17 2010, 03:14 AM) *
I'm happy about no fighters should be changing rules, and we should have rules in place. Problem is, the same guy is making weight classes with a catch weight (Pacquiao isn't the only one) when we have rules that give us weight classes, we have fighters requesting different size gloves, different size rings, penalties for coming in over weight and so on.
We need all fighters to just obey rules and do what told, or we can continue to do what we do now, have negotiations about some rules. We need one or the other, not some rules that are ok and others that aren't so much. If it's not ok for someone to negotiate drug testing, then I don't think it should be ok for someone to negotiate catch weights for title fights, the size of the ring, gloves and so on.
If fighters want a standard from one of the governing bodies, they must follow the standard in other areas. Simple as that for me.

Fucking BINGO.
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