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KENSOFINE
I argue that a boxer's stamina is significantly superior, and that might make the difference. Also, most MMA fighters suck at counterpunching, and get caught with the dumbest haymakers. Those two factors alone seem like an advantage for the boxer.
JD
Win what?

I think a boxer wins a boxing match, an MMA fighter wins an MMA match.
Mean Mister Mustard
QUOTE (KENSOFINE @ Jun 1 2010, 10:49 AM) *
I argue that a boxer's stamina is significantly superior, and that might make the difference. Also, most MMA fighters suck at counterpunching, and get caught with the dumbest haymakers. Those two factors alone seem like an advantage for the boxer.


I think an MMA fighter would have the advantage in a streetfight seeing as how they can take the fight to the ground and apply a submission. Then again if you get caught in a submission you can bite the guy or, depending on the position, go fot the testicles. Moreover, a boxer may be able to keeo the fight standing or catch the mma guy before the go to the ground. One thing you mentioned is that most MMA fighters suck at counterpunching and I would argue they suck at punching as a whole (there are exceptions though). Sure if they catch you you're going to sleep but tewchnically they have so many holes that a pro boxer might be able to catch them. Also Most boxers only train at punching and refrain from lifting weights so they may be faster. Still, I'm going wiith the MMa guys since they can probably take the fight to the ground before the boxer even knows what happened. Of course this depends on the fighters themselves.
KENSOFINE
QUOTE (JD @ Jun 1 2010, 12:23 PM) *
Win what?

I think a boxer wins a boxing match, an MMA fighter wins an MMA match.


The question is obvious. Why would anyone expect a MMA person to outbox a boxer for 12 rounds, when you take away MOST of his skillset in a boxing ONLY match?

I obviously meant...How well would a BOXER do if he were to cross over into MMA, like James Toney and Mayorga? What are your expectations in that type of match.
JD
QUOTE (KENSOFINE @ Jun 1 2010, 01:05 PM) *
The question is obvious. Why would anyone expect a MMA person to outbox a boxer for 12 rounds, when you take away MOST of his skillset in a boxing ONLY match?

I obviously meant...How well would a BOXER do if he were to cross over into MMA, like James Toney and Mayorga? What are your expectations in that type of match.


Obvious? Maybe to you, the asker...but all you asked was "who would win", naturally you know what you are thinking...I don't. My initial sense was that you meant a street feet.

On topic, I think it is difficult to say because so often people will look at a guy like Anderson Silva who wins a match by boxing and cite that as the reason a boxer would excel...the only problem with that type of thinking is that Silva is able to have his way boxing with these guys because of what they fear coming back at them with his legs, or his take-downs. Remove those weapons from his holster and suddenly his opponents are looking for boxing and only boxing. I would think that a mixed martial artist isn't going to look to stand up and bang with a boxer, and if they can get them to the ground without getting clipped, it may very well be fight over - add to that the fact that most boxers don't know how to kick...I don't see it looking all that great for them.

I tend to think that the sports are a lot more different than people realize, and while I would give a mixed martial artist little to no chance against a boxer of similar stature and accolades in their sport, I don't really love a boxers chances in the octagon against an mma fighter. The boxer has a better punchers chance, especially if the mixed martial artist's chin is shot, but I don't foresee myself picking them to win if we are talking comparable fighters.
SENTRAL
This type of question will always create areas of disagreement depending on the sport you personally favor. I feel that UFC/MMA is a coarser art, more complex to understand due to the inticracy. The different disciplines, a vast variety of moves, ie, the neck crank or the guillotine or the straight arm bar, will excite as many as they confuse others. I studied the sport to enhance my understanding and I found that traditionalists have a hard time accepting it as a sport.
MMA doesn't turn me on but to answer the question you have to ignore the failed attempts of washed up boxers who have embarrassed themselves and their code in order to make the crossover. My genuine belief based upon personal preference and a little research is that an elite boxer beats a UFC guy in a straight up fight. I understand the allure of UFC but I do not put it in the same elite bracket as boxing.
A strange countenance to my belief however comes in the shape of an unknown British kick boxer turned boxer who is reported to be the only man to knock out Vitali Klitschko in a kick boxing bout several years ago. The British fighter whose name is Pele Reid is said to have KO'd Vitali with a kick to the jaw. Reid failed to achieve any heights as a pro boxer and Klitschko is the no.1 heavyweight in the world. Different disciplines and no doubt different outcomes would occur.
I babble.
JLUVBABY
i think it depends on the calliber of the two fighters fighting... we've seen mma vs boxing on several occasions... the first ufc showcased a boxer vs a mma guy but the boxer was (forget his name, he fought with one boxing glove on and one bare hand...) a piece of shit... and theres been some others... but in a fight of two supposed top quality fighters give me the boxer... to me a top skilled boxer has enough skill level to offset the rush needed to stop the takedown... example... ill use fedor the emporer as a prime example... fedor would get k.o'd in my opinion by either kllit... that would put the emporer to sleep getting hit by one of those two with 4 oz. gloves on... just my opinion...
Megadeth

It depends on many factors including the fighters. Chuck Liddel was a great UFC champion whose success was at standup. I would think a boxer may have a great chance at beating a UFC fighter who is an "expert" at standup in a boxing match. I say expert loosely, because a UFC expert at standup does not compare to the skills of a great boxer. You have to remember that Chuck won almost all his fights using his stand up skills, but he is also skilled on the ground and at avoiding takedowns. As where a boxer pretty much only practices boxing, An MMA fighter practices boxing, kick boxing, judo, jiu jitsu, wrestling, etc. I would fully expect a boxer to be way more better at stand up then an mma fighter,but....

In a street fight, where you have an MMA fighter and a boxer who are equally dominant in their sport, i would go with the MMA fighter 95% of the time. Even MMA fighters like a Chuck Lidell (I am only using chuck based on his stand up style) i would think could win because he has a decent chin and could take the fight to the ground where with his limited ground skills (i say limited because chuck is no bjj expert) could easily ground and pound or tapout the boxer.

Boxers have absolutely no take down defense, no groundfighting, not chokes or submissions, they are a 1 trick pony. Of course their boxing skillare are far superior but i cannot see them landing the knockout punch more than 5 times out of 100 before they would get taken to the ground and beat up.

Lets look at some hypothetical matchups

brock lesnar, shane carwin or frank mir vs. Klitchkos or david Haye.
I would take all 3 mma fighters over any of the 3 boxers. Sure they may take a punch coming in but all 3 of those heavyweight MMA are the size of the Kiltchkos. Once any of them would grab a kiltchko, even if they took a punch or too, they would get taken to the ground immediately.

Also lets think about how often boxers hold on. All the MMA fighter would have to do is engage in a clinch then game over. Clinching occurs in like 100% of boxing matches, If the MMA fighter can successfully make the clinch without getting KO'd, then they would have 100% of the advantage.

We could go down all the weight classes but i think it would be much of the same.

I love the sweet science and it is my favorite sport with MMA following up a very close 2nd. You just have to appreciate each sport for what they are and how they are different. They are different sports with different rules and different skill sets. Boxers are far superior at standing up, but it only takes one clinch and now the boxer is at a sever disadvantage.

We will soon see when James Toney takes on Randy Couture. Even though James is in my opion one of the all time greatest boxers, once the fight goes to the ground, which IT WILL, then he will be in Randy domain.
JLUVBABY
on a side note i was going through some old vhs tapes that i have... the bulk of my collection is on vhs from back in the days but im trying to slowly get them transferred to dvd.... but low and behold what does jluv find?... the first 4 original broadcast of ufc... havent gone back and watched them yet but look forward to going back and watching them to see just how the game has changed... one of the tapes even has that one night heavyweight tournament in missisippi from back in the early 90's as well... lol.. .forgot i had this stuff... lol...
Fitz
Fitz
QUOTE (Fitz @ Jun 2 2010, 07:04 AM) *


Good post.
Antonio Tarver
QUOTE (Fitz @ Jun 1 2010, 05:04 PM) *


Long pic. Longer than my piece.
ROLL DEEP
I think both of them connect at the same time and both blow up in flames and kill everyone who was watching it.



Warlord
In MMA, an MMA fighter wins. I won't quantify my statement, as I have already done so the last 2-3 times this topic came up.

Fitz, you are P4P brother.
Fitz
QUOTE (Fitz @ Jun 2 2010, 07:04 AM) *
Good post.


Thanks Warlord.
Fitz
Ooops. Quoted wrong post.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (SENTRAL @ Jun 1 2010, 02:27 PM) *
A strange countenance to my belief however comes in the shape of an unknown British kick boxer turned boxer who is reported to be the only man to knock out Vitali Klitschko in a kick boxing bout several years ago. The British fighter whose name is Pele Reid is said to have KO'd Vitali with a kick to the jaw. Reid failed to achieve any heights as a pro boxer and Klitschko is the no.1 heavyweight in the world. Different disciplines and no doubt different outcomes would occur.
I babble.


I think there is some footage out there of this. I swear I have seen it posted somewhere, but maybe that's just wish fulfilment on my part laugh.gif
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (KENSOFINE @ Jun 1 2010, 03:49 PM) *
I argue that a boxer's stamina is significantly superior, and that might make the difference. Also, most MMA fighters suck at counterpunching, and get caught with the dumbest haymakers. Those two factors alone seem like an advantage for the boxer.


I don't neccesarily agree with the stamina issue. Wrestling & grappling take a lot our of you cardio wise. That said I could see a lot of boxers getting caught with the dumbest takedowns & submitted with the most ridiculous submissions....
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (ROLL DEEP @ Jun 1 2010, 10:39 PM) *
I think both of them connect at the same time and both blow up in flames and kill everyone who was watching it.


Just like I planned for Tarver ves RJJ III. Except my vision involved a collapsing ring amongst other things.
JonnyBlaze
Boxer wins
kidbazooka1
This topic has been beaten to death already.

Two different sports. Boxer will usually win standing and an MMA fighter will usually win on the ground.
Fitz
QUOTE (JonnyBlaze @ Jun 2 2010, 03:44 PM) *
Boxer wins


I like you JB, but when it comes to this. You have ZERO credibility on this topic.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE (Fitz @ Jun 2 2010, 01:24 AM) *
I like you JB, but when it comes to this. You have ZERO credibility on this topic.

I know I have none..I just threw my opinion out there..I am biased..I stopped at just that,boxer wins..I'm not gonna argue this shit anymore..It's not fair to the MMA fans and it's not fair for them to try saying that a MMA guy wins and argue the point..Close this BS thread..It's played out..
BigG
Hard to say it really. The top Boxers are WAY more talented than the top MMAers. Standing up, Boxer wins.

What if the Boxer knew other forms of martial arts ala Cintron (wrestling), Malignaggi (Black belt BJJ). You can't say.

Do I think a bum like Carwin or Roy Nelson could take Vit Klit in a street fight? NO.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (BigG @ Jun 2 2010, 02:45 AM) *
Hard to say it really. The top Boxers are WAY more talented than the top MMAers. Standing up, Boxer wins.

What if the Boxer knew other forms of martial arts ala Cintron (wrestling), Malignaggi (Black belt BJJ). You can't say.

Do I think a bum like Carwin or Roy Nelson could take Vit Klit in a street fight? NO.


Ha ha for a 2nd I thought that was Shane Mosley doing one of his patented closed eyes punches.
Warlord
QUOTE (BigG @ Jun 2 2010, 02:45 AM) *
Hard to say it really. The top Boxers are WAY more talented than the top MMAers.

At boxing. Mixed Martial Artists are WAY more talented than boxers at MMA.

Grow up already.

QUOTE
Standing up, Boxer wins.


Tell that to former pro-boxer (ranked in the top-10 at one point, challenged gay Jeff Lacey for a title) Rubin Williams. He got owned on his feet by Kazushi Sakuraba before getting taken down and submitted. And he never landed a goddamn punch in the process.

QUOTE
What if the Boxer knew other forms of martial arts ala Cintron (wrestling), Malignaggi (Black belt BJJ). You can't say.


And what if MMA fighters were trained exclusively in boxing for most of their childhood? You can say. It's just hypothetical and dumb.

QUOTE
Do I think a bum like Carwin or Roy Nelson could take Vit Klit in a street fight? NO.


Carwin is not a bum, but you're sure sounding like one after taking an ass-ripping in your own smack-talk thread before coming out here posting this drivel of epic proportions.
BigG
LOL. at rubin Williams. Shot and something like 30 pounds past his best weight fighing a natural at that weight? BIG DEAL. Put Sakuraba against someone thats young and and in his prime.

Carwin is overhyped bum like Brock Lesnar and I ripped you in that smack talk thread geek and yes he would get raped by Vitali Klitschko in a fight.

I respect MMA fighters and last year I learned it with a team who was lead by a pro but the talent in Boxing is higher. Just my opinion.
JD
QUOTE (Warlord @ Jun 1 2010, 09:54 PM) *
In MMA, an MMA fighter wins. I won't quantify my statement, as I have already done so the last 2-3 times this topic came up.

Fitz, you are P4P brother.


That's pretty much my sentiment.

In the boxer versus mixed martial artist discussion, each one would win in their own sport.
D-MARV
This topic is pointless. MMA fighters win at MMA, Boxers win at Boxing.

The Rubin Williams comment was funny though. He was more shot then Tim Sylvia.
mrwigi
yea, it depends on the event, and the fighters.
ROLL DEEP
98% of the time, an MMA fighter wins in a MMA fight.

98% of the time, a boxer wins in a boxing fight.


2% of the time, the fight could go the other way based on luck or if the fighter making the transition has a little something special about them.




100% of this topic is retarded and been done to death a gazillion times before.




PS: The %'s may not be accurate (apart from the last statistic).
D-MARV
^^^^^ Great Post!!!!
Fitz
QUOTE (ROLL DEEP @ Jun 3 2010, 12:30 AM) *
100% of this topic is retarded.


Best post of this thread yet.

By the way, I found this really cool pic.

Fitz
QUOTE (ROLL DEEP @ Jun 3 2010, 12:30 AM) *
100% of this topic is retarded.


Best post of this thread yet.

By the way, I found this really cool pic.

Fitz
Sorry. Double post.
KENSOFINE
Didnt know it had been visited and revisited. Still somewhat new here. My bad.

That said...

Quit fuckin whining, fags.

Its easier not to post than to waste time and energy posting how reworked a topic is. You seem desperate to be noticed, like a 5 year old girl flipping up her skirt for candy.

Simply ignore topics you dont want to answer again. Just that easy.
Lil-lightsout
This topic has been beat... just kidding. It all depends on the fighters, statement is too general.
Fitz
The topic being beaten to death was only half the problem.
Warlord
QUOTE (D-MARV @ Jun 2 2010, 09:40 AM) *
This topic is pointless. MMA fighters win at MMA, Boxers win at Boxing.

The Rubin Williams comment was funny though. He was more shot then Tim Sylvia.

Sakuraba was beyond shot in that fight. It doesn't excuse Williams getting owned the way he did.
blackbelt2003
Another factor is: does the boxer get time to train in MMA, or are we talking about sticking them in the cage right now with their current skill set?

Cuz if you take, say a Floyd Mayweather, who is a really gifted natural athlete, and gave him a six month crash course in MMA, I'm pretty sure he'd become a pretty darned good ground guy in that time, such is his agility and ability to learn.

If that was the case, I'd pick Floyd over a lot of top MMA guys at his weight. Not because he's a boxer, but because he's the type of special athlete who would be able to do that.


Of course it wouldn't quite work going the other way (MMA to boxing) because the skill set is too refined, unless, of course, the MMA fighter was already a natrually talented boxer.



But it's all apples and pears. Generally, a boxer wins in boxing, an MMA fighter wins in the cage, a tennis player wins on the tennis court and a ball player wins under the board.

The cross over skill set is about the same as getting a rugby player to play grid iron or vice versa...i.e. it helps a little but they may as well start over in their new sport unless they're a special kind of athlete.





Black
AussieLad
Rubbish

Where does athleticism come into ground work. Your on the fucking ground, hand and foot speed mean very little. What matters is control and skill, something you dont pick up in 6 months. Wrestling and Jiu jitsu are about position, and controlling position

Give floyd a year to learn the ground game and he still doesnt last a round against anyone half decent in his weight range
KENSOFINE
QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ Jun 3 2010, 01:24 AM) *
I suppose a dude that names himself KENNYSOPRETTY would know.


There she is thumbsup_anim.gif

I was starting to get worried there, for awhile. I'm not used to looking down at my balls and NOT seeing your pretty face staring back at me.

Its fine for now, but when winter comes back around, I need you to resume your roll as my personal bearded scrotum warming cock jockey.

Deal?
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE (KENSOFINE @ Jun 3 2010, 06:37 AM) *
There she is thumbsup_anim.gif

I was starting to get worried there, for awhile. I'm not used to looking down at my balls and NOT seeing your pretty face staring back at me.

Its fine for now, but when winter comes back around, I need you to resume your roll as my personal bearded scrotum warming cock jockey.

Deal?

Hahaha..Man,you're crazy..A bearded scrotum warming cock jockey??hahaha..

blackbelt2003
QUOTE (AussieLad @ Jun 3 2010, 10:34 AM) *
Rubbish

Where does athleticism come into ground work. Your on the fucking ground, hand and foot speed mean very little. What matters is control and skill, something you dont pick up in 6 months. Wrestling and Jiu jitsu are about position, and controlling position

Give floyd a year to learn the ground game and he still doesnt last a round against anyone half decent in his weight range



LOL, I know you're wrong from experience and a decade coaching and training with MMA fighters, both pro and amateur.
Firstly, why do you assume athleticism is limited to hand and foot speed? It's also a sense of distance, control, timing and agility...all of huge importance on the ground. And whilst skill is learned via experience, someone of natural ability needs a heck of lot less experience to learn the skills than someone of average ability.

Some guys come into the gym and within a few months their natural athleticism and their agility means they're turning some decent BJJ guys into knots, even a couple of BJJ Blue Belts, I've seen it in the gym.
Hell, I've ROLLED with some new guys who have been fucking hard work, and I've struggled to control them simply because they are immensely strong or have great natural agility. They're harder work than guys who have been training years. And they developed a heck of a lot quicker than them, too, technique and skill wise.

And that's without factoring in ANY striking. I'm guessing Floyd would be a natural at learning to kick, too.



Black

Snoop
This has actually developed into a pretty interesting debate now.
Maxy
QUOTE (blackbelt2003 @ Jun 4 2010, 01:31 PM) *
LOL, I know you're wrong from experience and a decade coaching and training with MMA fighters, both pro and amateur.
Firstly, why do you assume athleticism is limited to hand and foot speed? It's also a sense of distance, control, timing and agility...all of huge importance on the ground. And whilst skill is learned via experience, someone of natural ability needs a heck of lot less experience to learn the skills than someone of average ability.

Some guys come into the gym and within a few months their natural athleticism and their agility means they're turning some decent BJJ guys into knots, even a couple of BJJ Blue Belts, I've seen it in the gym.
Hell, I've ROLLED with some new guys who have been fucking hard work, and I've struggled to control them simply because they are immensely strong or have great natural agility. They're harder work than guys who have been training years. And they developed a heck of a lot quicker than them, too, technique and skill wise.

And that's without factoring in ANY striking. I'm guessing Floyd would be a natural at learning to kick, too.



Black


I agree with that.

A natural fighter will easily adapt and acquire new skills far easier than somebody who basically has to be taught from scratch.
Keith
Give a lot of top level boxers a decent amount of time and some tune up fights and I think they own the mma talent. I dont believe wrestling or grappling would be the biggest obstacle facing a boxer in an mma fight... it would be defending against kicks.

I dont follow mma religiously, I watched it a good bit for a few years a while back, but it seems to me that a lot of mma fighters that lack wrestling and grappling skills early in their careers pick it up rather quickly and thus I feel boxers would probably be able to as well.

Boxers would find it extremely difficult to defend kicks. Being creatures of habit and only using their fists... they would get caught with kicks all the time.
Keith
QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ Jun 5 2010, 01:40 AM) *
Depends on the kicks.

The kicks that are most difficult to deal with are those to the legs. A decent boxer-with a decent training camp-can handle kicks at the hips and above.

Do not underestimate the ability of quality wrestlers, grapplers and JJ masters to close distance and take down a stand up guy. I've been there.

Contrary to a previous thread, timing and power are essential, whether you are standing, on your back or grounding and pounding. Lethal force depends on good timing, especially against wrestlers and JJ boys.


The low kicks were the ones I was mostly thinking of.

I dont underestimate the importance of wrestling and grappling... I've just noticed that it seems that mma fighters pick those 2 things up rather quickly...imo.

I have never liked the phrase "you can't teach an old dog new tricks".... I think its a lot easier to learn new things (wrestling/grappling) as oppossed to unlearning old habits (only using fists).
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (Keith @ Jun 5 2010, 07:30 AM) *
The low kicks were the ones I was mostly thinking of.

I dont underestimate the importance of wrestling and grappling... I've just noticed that it seems that mma fighters pick those 2 things up rather quickly...imo.

I have never liked the phrase "you can't teach an old dog new tricks".... I think its a lot easier to learn new things (wrestling/grappling) as oppossed to unlearning old habits (only using fists).

I agree with your dislike of that phrase. I've never understood how it managed to be utilized to the point of cliche, given it is utter bullshit.

This whole argument depends on the dogs in and the rules of the fight. 5 minutes in an MMA cage is a different world then 3 minutes in a boxing ring. The conditioning is probably the number 1 difference. Being able to maneuver about a roped off space with the knowledge that the person you are maneuvering against is largely limited to the use of gloved fists while attacking only above the groin is an acutely specialized profession. Being stuck in an octagon with a beast who is allowed to pretzelize your ass just prior to choking you the fuck out requires a more complete arsenal of defensive and offensive weapons that includes a far more comprehensive conditioning regimen.

IMO, the elite fighters of the MMA would stand a better chance of survival and victory against the elite boxers in a 12 round boxing match than the boxers would in a 5 round octagon environment.

That said, an elite boxer could definitely make waves in MMA if matched against a series of handpicked stand-up journeymen. But even that would not be an easy road. Certain elite MMA fighters could do the same in boxing, especially in the heavyweight division.
Run and Gun Game Calls
seems the majority thinks an elite boxer beats an elite mma artist. I lean torward the MMa fighter but to me it just makes more sence. Street fights rarely stay on their feet without it hitting the ground at some point. Even if a boxer drops a mma fighter, human nature is to move in for the kill, and in doing so the boxer opens himself up to being taken advantage of. Also the speed of leg sweeps and take downs is amazing with top flight guys.

Even though they are both very old now, I believe randy Couture is going to make an example of James Toney to other boxers.

I remember bobby thomas when I was a kid, golden gloves boxer, wv state Lt. heavyweight boxing champion. An all around good fighter. Once he quit fighting He started going to night clubs alot. One night in Oak Hill he got mouthy with A kid who happened to be a collegate wrestler. In the parking lot bobby jerked his shirt off and started bounceing around, and you just knew this kid was gonna get messed up. Hell bobby outweighed him by 30 pounds,

Next thing you know bobby was on his back and that kid was raining down bombs on him, Fucked bobby up bad.

The kid was just a wrestler at like a division 2 school, and hammered a very good fighter in a street fight.

Thats been my only experience in something like this. Was fun to watch though
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