Full Version: James Toney latest video.
Damn he sounds bad. He always talked funny but it's a little worst now. I love James and hope he gives a good showing against Coture.
"I'm gonna choke yo ass out!"
Man, I hope Toney can back it up in the octagon!
Man, I hope Toney can back it up in the octagon!
Choke out Randy?
He's delusional
Maybe he can catch randy coming in, but unless james can keep couture at a distance he is getting his ass whipped
He's delusional
Maybe he can catch randy coming in, but unless james can keep couture at a distance he is getting his ass whipped
QUOTE (AussieLad @ Jun 2 2010, 07:51 PM) 
Choke out Randy?
He's delusional
Maybe he can catch randy coming in, but unless james can keep couture at a distance he is getting his ass whipped
He's delusional
Maybe he can catch randy coming in, but unless james can keep couture at a distance he is getting his ass whipped
Is that as delusional as Randy Couture saying he's going to KO Toney with a left hook?
Just curious.
Can't believe Toney said he's the best to put gloves on..He has no idea what he's talkin about..
I hope he KO's Couture..
I hope he KO's Couture..
Randy would be a fools fool if he attempt to box(not dirty box) Toney even if its just for 30 seconds of the whole fight.
QUOTE (thehype @ Jun 3 2010, 03:20 AM)
Is that as delusional as Randy Couture saying he's going to KO Toney with a left hook?
Just curious.
Just curious.
I can see him dropping Toney with a dirty boxing hook, after he has softened him up for a bit against the cage. That sort of shit sucks your stamina, and couture is always in a billion times better shape than James.
The difference between the two scenarios is that pressing people against the cage and dirty boxing is Coutures bread and butter, the centre peice of his standard gameplan, whereas toney choking guys out is as alien to him as a fish walking on land. Randy dropping Toney is far more likely than James choking out randy. If he had said he was going to KO couture, well at least that is a possibility, but toney is in a fantasy world and i stand by my comments
All I've gotta say is that I give Toney MAD props for switching over sports and fighting in the octagon.
Much respect.
Much respect.
Whichever way it goes, notice it's Toney fighting Couture in the octagon and not Couture fighting Toney in the boxing-ring.
That says a lot about the two men.
Black
That says a lot about the two men.
Black
QUOTE (blackbelt2003 @ Jun 3 2010, 08:46 AM)
Whichever way it goes, notice it's Toney fighting Couture in the octagon and not Couture fighting Toney in the boxing-ring.
That says a lot about the two men.
Black
That says a lot about the two men.
Black
That Couture is not delusional?
Seriously, if your comment is about balls, i can hardly see how it reflects badly on either guy. Couture has faced some beasts in his time, as a small heavyweight. James isnt scared of anyone. The only difference is that Jmaes career is stagnating in boxing, can't get fights, and so he feels the need to go to the octagon. If anything, your comment should be directed at the two sports. IE notice that its a boxer forced to fight in MMA, and not the other way around
QUOTE (AussieLad @ Jun 3 2010, 03:32 AM)
I can see him dropping Toney with a dirty boxing hook, after he has softened him up for a bit against the cage. That sort of shit sucks your stamina, and couture is always in a billion times better shape than James.
The difference between the two scenarios is that pressing people against the cage and dirty boxing is Coutures bread and butter, the centre peice of his standard gameplan, whereas toney choking guys out is as alien to him as a fish walking on land. Randy dropping Toney is far more likely than James choking out randy. If he had said he was going to KO couture, well at least that is a possibility, but toney is in a fantasy world and i stand by my comments
The difference between the two scenarios is that pressing people against the cage and dirty boxing is Coutures bread and butter, the centre peice of his standard gameplan, whereas toney choking guys out is as alien to him as a fish walking on land. Randy dropping Toney is far more likely than James choking out randy. If he had said he was going to KO couture, well at least that is a possibility, but toney is in a fantasy world and i stand by my comments
A lot of "ifs" in that scenario...."if" he presses him to the cage, "if" he softens him up, "if" he lands a dirty boxing hook. Randy hasn't exactly looked all that great with his "dirty boxing" in 3 out of his last 4 fights. In fact, I've seen Randy's chin checked A LOT more times lately than I've seen him drop anyone with any dirty boxing hooks.
I do find it fascinating though how someone can just conclude one scenario is far more likely than the other when they have absolutely no idea of everything that's being brought to the table. I mean, I've never personally seen James Toney in any fight other than a boxing match, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the dude isn't an animal and doesn't know how to choke someone out. In fact, one might argue that "if" James Toney is able to get to Couture's back, then choking him out might be a lot easier than Couture dropping Toney with a dirty boxing hook "if" he's able to soften him up against the cage.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that I don't think one scenario is any more or less "delusional" than the other...but I do find it fascinating that people just assume that someone who knows how to box doesn't know how to throw a kick, a knee or choke someone out, and yet someone who knows how to wrestle is supposed to be far more successful in those areas.
I'm just sayin....
Personally, seeing as how the fight starts on the feet and Randy's chin has been rattled by far less accurate strikers, twice by a counter puncher no less, I'll favor Toney to knock his ass out.....and then choke him out while he's snoring.
^^^^ LOL... I like that senario a lot better.
QUOTE (thehype @ Jun 3 2010, 12:56 PM)
A lot of "ifs" in that scenario...."if" he presses him to the cage, "if" he softens him up, "if" he lands a dirty boxing hook. Randy hasn't exactly looked all that great with his "dirty boxing" in 3 out of his last 4 fights. In fact, I've seen Randy's chin checked A LOT more times lately than I've seen him drop anyone with any dirty boxing hooks.
I do find it fascinating though how someone can just conclude one scenario is far more likely than the other when they have absolutely no idea of everything that's being brought to the table. I mean, I've never personally seen James Toney in any fight other than a boxing match, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the dude isn't an animal and doesn't know how to choke someone out. In fact, one might argue that "if" James Toney is able to get to Couture's back, then choking him out might be a lot easier than Couture dropping Toney with a dirty boxing hook "if" he's able to soften him up against the cage.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that I don't think one scenario is any more or less "delusional" than the other...but I do find it fascinating that people just assume that someone who knows how to box doesn't know how to throw a kick, a knee or choke someone out, and yet someone who knows how to wrestle is supposed to be far more successful in those areas.
I'm just sayin....
Personally, seeing as how the fight starts on the feet and Randy's chin has been rattled by far less accurate strikers, twice by a counter puncher no less, I'll favor Toney to knock his ass out.....and then choke him out while he's snoring.
I do find it fascinating though how someone can just conclude one scenario is far more likely than the other when they have absolutely no idea of everything that's being brought to the table. I mean, I've never personally seen James Toney in any fight other than a boxing match, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the dude isn't an animal and doesn't know how to choke someone out. In fact, one might argue that "if" James Toney is able to get to Couture's back, then choking him out might be a lot easier than Couture dropping Toney with a dirty boxing hook "if" he's able to soften him up against the cage.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that I don't think one scenario is any more or less "delusional" than the other...but I do find it fascinating that people just assume that someone who knows how to box doesn't know how to throw a kick, a knee or choke someone out, and yet someone who knows how to wrestle is supposed to be far more successful in those areas.
I'm just sayin....
Personally, seeing as how the fight starts on the feet and Randy's chin has been rattled by far less accurate strikers, twice by a counter puncher no less, I'll favor Toney to knock his ass out.....and then choke him out while he's snoring.
That's my boy..Hit the nail on the head..
QUOTE (thehype @ Jun 3 2010, 06:56 PM)
A lot of "ifs" in that scenario...."if" he presses him to the cage, "if" he softens him up, "if" he lands a dirty boxing hook. Randy hasn't exactly looked all that great with his "dirty boxing" in 3 out of his last 4 fights. In fact, I've seen Randy's chin checked A LOT more times lately than I've seen him drop anyone with any dirty boxing hooks.
I do find it fascinating though how someone can just conclude one scenario is far more likely than the other when they have absolutely no idea of everything that's being brought to the table. I mean, I've never personally seen James Toney in any fight other than a boxing match, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the dude isn't an animal and doesn't know how to choke someone out. In fact, one might argue that "if" James Toney is able to get to Couture's back, then choking him out might be a lot easier than Couture dropping Toney with a dirty boxing hook "if" he's able to soften him up against the cage.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that I don't think one scenario is any more or less "delusional" than the other...but I do find it fascinating that people just assume that someone who knows how to box doesn't know how to throw a kick, a knee or choke someone out, and yet someone who knows how to wrestle is supposed to be far more successful in those areas.
I'm just sayin....
Personally, seeing as how the fight starts on the feet and Randy's chin has been rattled by far less accurate strikers, twice by a counter puncher no less, I'll favor Toney to knock his ass out.....and then choke him out while he's snoring.
I do find it fascinating though how someone can just conclude one scenario is far more likely than the other when they have absolutely no idea of everything that's being brought to the table. I mean, I've never personally seen James Toney in any fight other than a boxing match, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the dude isn't an animal and doesn't know how to choke someone out. In fact, one might argue that "if" James Toney is able to get to Couture's back, then choking him out might be a lot easier than Couture dropping Toney with a dirty boxing hook "if" he's able to soften him up against the cage.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that I don't think one scenario is any more or less "delusional" than the other...but I do find it fascinating that people just assume that someone who knows how to box doesn't know how to throw a kick, a knee or choke someone out, and yet someone who knows how to wrestle is supposed to be far more successful in those areas.
I'm just sayin....
Personally, seeing as how the fight starts on the feet and Randy's chin has been rattled by far less accurate strikers, twice by a counter puncher no less, I'll favor Toney to knock his ass out.....and then choke him out while he's snoring.
On one hand you have a guy who's entire gameplan revolves around pressing guys up against a cage and dirty boxing, one of the best at that in the history of the sport, going up against a complete novice at it...
Versus James "never demonstrated any submission skills beyond surrendering to a Big Mac" Toney, going to choke out using his novice skills a veteran that has fought the best
And you cant see which scenario is more likely?
Your just arguing for the sake of defending boxingSo toney may have a whole kit of jiu jitsu and wrestling, and just because we have never seen it doesnt mean it doesnt exist? Thats your argument...? LOL... Say hi to Elvis and the loch ness monster for me hype... i mean just because we have never seen the loch ness monster and have absolutely no proof that it exists... logic... who needs it
Maybe Couture has mayweather level boxing skills, and we have never seen it because he is always fighting in MMA? I'd be fucking stupid to argue that line of logic
And yes Couture will be more successful at choking, kneeing and kicking than toney. Why? Because he has been doing it in the octagon for years. I could see your argument having some weight if we had a novice wrestler with no MMA background taking on novice boxer. New skills for both, so they would be starting on equal footing. But Couture has been doing it, and doing it well for many years
I find it fascinating that boxing fans feel the need to super impose mythical abilities on their guys making the transition to MMA.
As for Coutures cage pressing not looking good in his last couple of outings. That may have something to do with the fact that he is fighting guys with years of training, who have specifically tailored their own gameplan for that fight... as opposed to James Toney who will be a novice at it
And the biggest LOL of all... "one might argue that if james could get Coutures back".... utter fucking LOL.... ahahahhahahaaaahahahahaaaa
I'm just sayin...
Personally, i think toney has a 30 second window for success in this fight. In the first 30 seconds, he needs to rattle couture badly, because after those 30 seconds he is going to be pressed against the cage, all his sublime boxing skills will mean nothing, and then he will pull his novice choking skills out on couture... LOL... and then we will see how well he does
The good thing about this thread is that we will know the answer in a few months. Care to make a sig bet Hype?
QUOTE (AussieLad @ Jun 3 2010, 05:30 AM)
That Couture is not delusional?
Seriously, if your comment is about balls, i can hardly see how it reflects badly on either guy. Couture has faced some beasts in his time, as a small heavyweight. James isnt scared of anyone. The only difference is that Jmaes career is stagnating in boxing, can't get fights, and so he feels the need to go to the octagon. If anything, your comment should be directed at the two sports. IE notice that its a boxer forced to fight in MMA, and not the other way around
Seriously, if your comment is about balls, i can hardly see how it reflects badly on either guy. Couture has faced some beasts in his time, as a small heavyweight. James isnt scared of anyone. The only difference is that Jmaes career is stagnating in boxing, can't get fights, and so he feels the need to go to the octagon. If anything, your comment should be directed at the two sports. IE notice that its a boxer forced to fight in MMA, and not the other way around
I wouldn't calling it being forced to fight in MMA, I would say it's more like Beckham and Henry playing in the MLS after years playing top flight euro footbal.
QUOTE (AussieLad @ Jun 3 2010, 07:09 PM)
On one hand you have a guy who's entire gameplan revolves around pressing guys up against a cage and dirty boxing, one of the best at that in the history of the sport, going up against a complete novice at it...
Versus James "never demonstrated any submission skills beyond surrendering to a Big Mac" Toney, going to choke out using his novice skills a veteran that has fought the best
And you cant see which scenario is more likely? Your just arguing for the sake of defending boxing
So toney may have a whole kit of jiu jitsu and wrestling, and just because we have never seen it doesnt mean it doesnt exist? Thats your argument...? LOL... Say hi to Elvis and the loch ness monster for me hype... i mean just because we have never seen the loch ness monster and have absolutely no proof that it exists... logic... who needs it
Maybe Couture has mayweather level boxing skills, and we have never seen it because he is always fighting in MMA? I'd be fucking stupid to argue that line of logic
And yes Couture will be more successful at choking, kneeing and kicking than toney. Why? Because he has been doing it in the octagon for years. I could see your argument having some weight if we had a novice wrestler with no MMA background taking on novice boxer. New skills for both, so they would be starting on equal footing. But Couture has been doing it, and doing it well for many years
I find it fascinating that boxing fans feel the need to super impose mythical abilities on their guys making the transition to MMA.
As for Coutures cage pressing not looking good in his last couple of outings. That may have something to do with the fact that he is fighting guys with years of training, who have specifically tailored their own gameplan for that fight... as opposed to James Toney who will be a novice at it
And the biggest LOL of all... "one might argue that if james could get Coutures back".... utter fucking LOL.... ahahahhahahaaaahahahahaaaa
I'm just sayin...
Personally, i think toney has a 30 second window for success in this fight. In the first 30 seconds, he needs to rattle couture badly, because after those 30 seconds he is going to be pressed against the cage, all his sublime boxing skills will mean nothing, and then he will pull his novice choking skills out on couture... LOL... and then we will see how well he does
The good thing about this thread is that we will know the answer in a few months. Care to make a sig bet Hype?
Versus James "never demonstrated any submission skills beyond surrendering to a Big Mac" Toney, going to choke out using his novice skills a veteran that has fought the best
And you cant see which scenario is more likely?
Your just arguing for the sake of defending boxingSo toney may have a whole kit of jiu jitsu and wrestling, and just because we have never seen it doesnt mean it doesnt exist? Thats your argument...? LOL... Say hi to Elvis and the loch ness monster for me hype... i mean just because we have never seen the loch ness monster and have absolutely no proof that it exists... logic... who needs it
Maybe Couture has mayweather level boxing skills, and we have never seen it because he is always fighting in MMA? I'd be fucking stupid to argue that line of logic
And yes Couture will be more successful at choking, kneeing and kicking than toney. Why? Because he has been doing it in the octagon for years. I could see your argument having some weight if we had a novice wrestler with no MMA background taking on novice boxer. New skills for both, so they would be starting on equal footing. But Couture has been doing it, and doing it well for many years
I find it fascinating that boxing fans feel the need to super impose mythical abilities on their guys making the transition to MMA.
As for Coutures cage pressing not looking good in his last couple of outings. That may have something to do with the fact that he is fighting guys with years of training, who have specifically tailored their own gameplan for that fight... as opposed to James Toney who will be a novice at it
And the biggest LOL of all... "one might argue that if james could get Coutures back".... utter fucking LOL.... ahahahhahahaaaahahahahaaaa
I'm just sayin...
Personally, i think toney has a 30 second window for success in this fight. In the first 30 seconds, he needs to rattle couture badly, because after those 30 seconds he is going to be pressed against the cage, all his sublime boxing skills will mean nothing, and then he will pull his novice choking skills out on couture... LOL... and then we will see how well he does
The good thing about this thread is that we will know the answer in a few months. Care to make a sig bet Hype?
LOL at you LOLing.
And LOL at you thinking I'm "defending" boxing.
On the contrary, I'm not defending boxing at all. I'm just LOLing at the fact that because someone was once a "boxer" as opposed to someone who was once a "wrestler", you automatically assume that the boxer has no chance of winning other than landing a punch in the first 30 seconds of a fight. You just assume that a "boxer" is going to go in there with some kind of shoulder roll defense and hope that he can land an uppercut while a guy is charging in.
I'm not saying Toney is an expert at wrestling, kicking, kneeing, Jiu Jitsu or any of that...but LOL at you gathering all of that from my post. I'm also not saying that Randy Couture can't stand and trade...but LOL at you attempting to school me on Randy Couture's career, fighting style and who he's faced.
I appreciate your novice MMA lesson homie, but quite frankly, it wasn't needed. I think I know both boxing AND MMA quite well and I'll gladly put my knowledge up next to yours any time. I love both sports...don't favor one over the other...a fight is a fight to me and quite frankly, I appreciate what fighters in BOTH sports do. But just so we're clear, I was never arguing or debating who was going to win the fight or how. My ONLY argument was that I find it HILARIOUS that someone like yourself would give a guy like Brock Lesnar, who's only been in a handful of fights, a MUCH BETTER CHANCE of beating someone like Randy Couture simply because he's a wrestler...he's never had any "dirty boxing" experience, no Muay Thai experience, no Jiu Jitsu experience, and yet, because he's a "wrestler", you'd automatically assume he's got a much better chance of beating Couture because IF he gets it to the ground, then he'll be able to use his advantage. But a boxer like James Toney, who's actually been in 70+ fights, whether it was in the streets in Michigan or in the ring, has NO CHANCE of beating someone like Randy Couture simply because he's a boxer...he's never had any wrestling experience, no Muay Thai experience, no Jiu Jitsu experience, and yet, because he's a "boxer", you'd automatically assume he's got no chance of beating Couture DESPITE the fact that the fight starts on the feet and it's Couture's job to get it into his world. I just find that FASCINATING and it makes me LOL. I guess I just don't understand why more value is placed on WRESTLING as opposed to BOXING skills in an organization where the President makes it a point to tell his fighters to entertain the crowd...an organization where more and more and MORE fighters are choosing to stand and bang as opposed to lay and pray.
I'm just sayin...why more respect for wrestling skills than boxing skills when the fight starts on the feet?
Hell, truth be told, learning how to sprawl is A LOT easier than learning stand-up skills.
I'm just sayin...
Personally, I KNOW Randy's going to touch gloves and looks to shoot ASAP...hell, we talk to his fuckin' trainer all the time, so there's no surprise there. The question is what the fuck is Randy going to do if he finds out that Toney's big ass learned how to sprawl and he can't get the fight to the ground? After all, that is a possibility you know.
I guess what I'm saying is that it's a fight and I wouldn't underestimate ANYONE, whether they're coming from wrestling, boxing, karate, or whatever. Should Randy Couture be favored? Absofuckinlutely...this is HIS sport after all. But to say it's delusional to think that Toney can win by any other way than a KO in the first 30 seconds...well...in my opinion, THAT'S delusional. IF you're a fan of MMA, and you actually do watch a lot of fights, then you should know by now that ANYTHING can happen in this sport and given the fact that Toney is a grimey motherfucker, I wouldn't at all be surprised to see that he knows a little "dirty boxing" himself. Is Toney going to be standing in the center of the cage throwing Cro Cop high kicks? Of course not, but if he's pressed against the cage, I think it's a little foolish to assume that he's not going to know what to do.
And you keep your gay sig bet...I don't get into that wack shit.
A fight is a fight and whoever executes the right game plan will win...simple as that. It's no surprise what Randy is going to do...there's plenty of tape out there to watch on him. On the contrary, they got no clue what Toney brings to the table inside the cage, so the pressure is DEFINITELY on Randy Couture.
I'm just sayin...
QUOTE (rusty_trombone @ Jun 3 2010, 07:50 PM)
I wouldn't calling it being forced to fight in MMA, I would say it's more like Beckham and Henry playing in the MLS after years playing top flight euro footbal.
Great analogy.
The funny thing about MMA is that I could start training today and in a year's time, I could be in the UFC and after 2 fights, I can be fighting for the title and possibly win. Case in point, all the experience and skill in "dirty boxing" that Randy Couture had didn't do shit for him against a guy who had less than 5 fights.
But hey, a fight is a fight to me so I definitely do appreciate the sport and the fighters.
QUOTE (thehype @ Jun 3 2010, 11:05 PM)
Great analogy.
The funny thing about MMA is that I could start training today and in a year's time, I could be in the UFC and after 2 fights, I can be fighting for the title and possibly win. Case in point, all the experience and skill in "dirty boxing" that Randy Couture had didn't do shit for him against a guy who had less than 5 fights.
But hey, a fight is a fight to me so I definitely do appreciate the sport and the fighters.
yeah, i've been swaying that for years about MMA & the UFC. Maybe more the UFC than MMA as a whole, but I've never seen a sport with more guys competing at the top level with no experience and very little training. I know there are tons of guys that have been training forever, but there's guys with like 5 fights(and a bunch of cool youtube videos) getting title shots. Shit a lot of the UFC "veterans" have like 12 fights and shit. I'm not knocking the sport, for better or for worse, that's just the UFC.
Yeah, I don't mind guys getting into the cage and fucking each other up, but the skill difference between a "veteran" and a "rookie" is not a gap that takes too long to bridge.
QUOTE (thehype @ Jun 4 2010, 03:58 AM)
LOL at you LOLing.
And LOL at you thinking I'm "defending" boxing.
On the contrary, I'm not defending boxing at all. I'm just LOLing at the fact that because someone was once a "boxer" as opposed to someone who was once a "wrestler", you automatically assume that the boxer has no chance of winning other than landing a punch in the first 30 seconds of a fight. You just assume that a "boxer" is going to go in there with some kind of shoulder roll defense and hope that he can land an uppercut while a guy is charging in.
I'm not saying Toney is an expert at wrestling, kicking, kneeing, Jiu Jitsu or any of that...but LOL at you gathering all of that from my post. I'm also not saying that Randy Couture can't stand and trade...but LOL at you attempting to school me on Randy Couture's career, fighting style and who he's faced.
I appreciate your novice MMA lesson homie, but quite frankly, it wasn't needed. I think I know both boxing AND MMA quite well and I'll gladly put my knowledge up next to yours any time. I love both sports...don't favor one over the other...a fight is a fight to me and quite frankly, I appreciate what fighters in BOTH sports do. But just so we're clear, I was never arguing or debating who was going to win the fight or how. My ONLY argument was that I find it HILARIOUS that someone like yourself would give a guy like Brock Lesnar, who's only been in a handful of fights, a MUCH BETTER CHANCE of beating someone like Randy Couture simply because he's a wrestler...he's never had any "dirty boxing" experience, no Muay Thai experience, no Jiu Jitsu experience, and yet, because he's a "wrestler", you'd automatically assume he's got a much better chance of beating Couture because IF he gets it to the ground, then he'll be able to use his advantage. But a boxer like James Toney, who's actually been in 70+ fights, whether it was in the streets in Michigan or in the ring, has NO CHANCE of beating someone like Randy Couture simply because he's a boxer...he's never had any wrestling experience, no Muay Thai experience, no Jiu Jitsu experience, and yet, because he's a "boxer", you'd automatically assume he's got no chance of beating Couture DESPITE the fact that the fight starts on the feet and it's Couture's job to get it into his world. I just find that FASCINATING and it makes me LOL. I guess I just don't understand why more value is placed on WRESTLING as opposed to BOXING skills in an organization where the President makes it a point to tell his fighters to entertain the crowd...an organization where more and more and MORE fighters are choosing to stand and bang as opposed to lay and pray.
I'm just sayin...why more respect for wrestling skills than boxing skills when the fight starts on the feet?
Hell, truth be told, learning how to sprawl is A LOT easier than learning stand-up skills.
I'm just sayin...
Personally, I KNOW Randy's going to touch gloves and looks to shoot ASAP...hell, we talk to his fuckin' trainer all the time, so there's no surprise there. The question is what the fuck is Randy going to do if he finds out that Toney's big ass learned how to sprawl and he can't get the fight to the ground? After all, that is a possibility you know.
I guess what I'm saying is that it's a fight and I wouldn't underestimate ANYONE, whether they're coming from wrestling, boxing, karate, or whatever. Should Randy Couture be favored? Absofuckinlutely...this is HIS sport after all. But to say it's delusional to think that Toney can win by any other way than a KO in the first 30 seconds...well...in my opinion, THAT'S delusional. IF you're a fan of MMA, and you actually do watch a lot of fights, then you should know by now that ANYTHING can happen in this sport and given the fact that Toney is a grimey motherfucker, I wouldn't at all be surprised to see that he knows a little "dirty boxing" himself. Is Toney going to be standing in the center of the cage throwing Cro Cop high kicks? Of course not, but if he's pressed against the cage, I think it's a little foolish to assume that he's not going to know what to do.
And you keep your gay sig bet...I don't get into that wack shit.
A fight is a fight and whoever executes the right game plan will win...simple as that. It's no surprise what Randy is going to do...there's plenty of tape out there to watch on him. On the contrary, they got no clue what Toney brings to the table inside the cage, so the pressure is DEFINITELY on Randy Couture.
I'm just sayin...
And LOL at you thinking I'm "defending" boxing.
On the contrary, I'm not defending boxing at all. I'm just LOLing at the fact that because someone was once a "boxer" as opposed to someone who was once a "wrestler", you automatically assume that the boxer has no chance of winning other than landing a punch in the first 30 seconds of a fight. You just assume that a "boxer" is going to go in there with some kind of shoulder roll defense and hope that he can land an uppercut while a guy is charging in.
I'm not saying Toney is an expert at wrestling, kicking, kneeing, Jiu Jitsu or any of that...but LOL at you gathering all of that from my post. I'm also not saying that Randy Couture can't stand and trade...but LOL at you attempting to school me on Randy Couture's career, fighting style and who he's faced.
I appreciate your novice MMA lesson homie, but quite frankly, it wasn't needed. I think I know both boxing AND MMA quite well and I'll gladly put my knowledge up next to yours any time. I love both sports...don't favor one over the other...a fight is a fight to me and quite frankly, I appreciate what fighters in BOTH sports do. But just so we're clear, I was never arguing or debating who was going to win the fight or how. My ONLY argument was that I find it HILARIOUS that someone like yourself would give a guy like Brock Lesnar, who's only been in a handful of fights, a MUCH BETTER CHANCE of beating someone like Randy Couture simply because he's a wrestler...he's never had any "dirty boxing" experience, no Muay Thai experience, no Jiu Jitsu experience, and yet, because he's a "wrestler", you'd automatically assume he's got a much better chance of beating Couture because IF he gets it to the ground, then he'll be able to use his advantage. But a boxer like James Toney, who's actually been in 70+ fights, whether it was in the streets in Michigan or in the ring, has NO CHANCE of beating someone like Randy Couture simply because he's a boxer...he's never had any wrestling experience, no Muay Thai experience, no Jiu Jitsu experience, and yet, because he's a "boxer", you'd automatically assume he's got no chance of beating Couture DESPITE the fact that the fight starts on the feet and it's Couture's job to get it into his world. I just find that FASCINATING and it makes me LOL. I guess I just don't understand why more value is placed on WRESTLING as opposed to BOXING skills in an organization where the President makes it a point to tell his fighters to entertain the crowd...an organization where more and more and MORE fighters are choosing to stand and bang as opposed to lay and pray.
I'm just sayin...why more respect for wrestling skills than boxing skills when the fight starts on the feet?
Hell, truth be told, learning how to sprawl is A LOT easier than learning stand-up skills.
I'm just sayin...
Personally, I KNOW Randy's going to touch gloves and looks to shoot ASAP...hell, we talk to his fuckin' trainer all the time, so there's no surprise there. The question is what the fuck is Randy going to do if he finds out that Toney's big ass learned how to sprawl and he can't get the fight to the ground? After all, that is a possibility you know.
I guess what I'm saying is that it's a fight and I wouldn't underestimate ANYONE, whether they're coming from wrestling, boxing, karate, or whatever. Should Randy Couture be favored? Absofuckinlutely...this is HIS sport after all. But to say it's delusional to think that Toney can win by any other way than a KO in the first 30 seconds...well...in my opinion, THAT'S delusional. IF you're a fan of MMA, and you actually do watch a lot of fights, then you should know by now that ANYTHING can happen in this sport and given the fact that Toney is a grimey motherfucker, I wouldn't at all be surprised to see that he knows a little "dirty boxing" himself. Is Toney going to be standing in the center of the cage throwing Cro Cop high kicks? Of course not, but if he's pressed against the cage, I think it's a little foolish to assume that he's not going to know what to do.
And you keep your gay sig bet...I don't get into that wack shit.
A fight is a fight and whoever executes the right game plan will win...simple as that. It's no surprise what Randy is going to do...there's plenty of tape out there to watch on him. On the contrary, they got no clue what Toney brings to the table inside the cage, so the pressure is DEFINITELY on Randy Couture.
I'm just sayin...
LOL at you LOLing at my LOLing... LOL
Well, if its so easy to learn to sprawl and stop an accomplished wrestler like couture, i cant see how Toney can lose? We'll just wait for the inevitable victory then shall we
The only pressure in this fight will be from Toneys head as he gets pummelled against the cage
And the fact is, that wrestling is the best base style to enter into MMA. Better than boxing, better than muay thai, better than JJ. So yes, i do give lesnar a better chance vs Randy and always will. Wrestling is applicable to more aspects of the sport. It can be used to control a striker against the cage, and it can be used to control position and avoid the submissions of a JJ fighter. Boxing is merely 25 percent of the striking game. Reference me how many guys who'se primary skillset has been boxing that have won world championships in the UFC or Pride as opposed to wrestlers and see how the numbers stack up
As for me giving toney no chance, mate i said he has a chance, in the first 30 seconds as the fight starts on the feet. 30 seconds is how long i give him till the fight is off the feet. So i dont know what your on about
Should be funny, how many fights has toney had? If lesnar could beat couture with only 4 or 5 fights then Toney must indeed be a lock, being an elite boxer with so much big fight experience. On the other hand, what does that say if he loses
QUOTE (AussieLad @ Jun 4 2010, 01:56 AM)
LOL at you LOLing at my LOLing... LOL
Well, if its so easy to learn to sprawl and stop an accomplished wrestler like couture, i cant see how Toney can lose? We'll just wait for the inevitable victory then shall we
The only pressure in this fight will be from Toneys head as he gets pummelled against the cage
And the fact is, that wrestling is the best base style to enter into MMA. Better than boxing, better than muay thai, better than JJ. So yes, i do give lesnar a better chance vs Randy and always will. Wrestling is applicable to more aspects of the sport. It can be used to control a striker against the cage, and it can be used to control position and avoid the submissions of a JJ fighter. Boxing is merely 25 percent of the striking game. Reference me how many guys who'se primary skillset has been boxing that have won world championships in the UFC or Pride as opposed to wrestlers and see how the numbers stack up
As for me giving toney no chance, mate i said he has a chance, in the first 30 seconds as the fight starts on the feet. 30 seconds is how long i give him till the fight is off the feet. So i dont know what your on about
Should be funny, how many fights has toney had? If lesnar could beat couture with only 4 or 5 fights then Toney must indeed be a lock, being an elite boxer with so much big fight experience. On the other hand, what does that say if he loses
Well, if its so easy to learn to sprawl and stop an accomplished wrestler like couture, i cant see how Toney can lose? We'll just wait for the inevitable victory then shall we
The only pressure in this fight will be from Toneys head as he gets pummelled against the cage
And the fact is, that wrestling is the best base style to enter into MMA. Better than boxing, better than muay thai, better than JJ. So yes, i do give lesnar a better chance vs Randy and always will. Wrestling is applicable to more aspects of the sport. It can be used to control a striker against the cage, and it can be used to control position and avoid the submissions of a JJ fighter. Boxing is merely 25 percent of the striking game. Reference me how many guys who'se primary skillset has been boxing that have won world championships in the UFC or Pride as opposed to wrestlers and see how the numbers stack up
As for me giving toney no chance, mate i said he has a chance, in the first 30 seconds as the fight starts on the feet. 30 seconds is how long i give him till the fight is off the feet. So i dont know what your on about
Should be funny, how many fights has toney had? If lesnar could beat couture with only 4 or 5 fights then Toney must indeed be a lock, being an elite boxer with so much big fight experience. On the other hand, what does that say if he loses
Toney isn't going to be "striking",he's going to be punching Couture..That's going to be the difference..Toney really knows how to punch..Striking is what street fighters do..This is all my opinion but I do believe that there is a difference between striking and punching..
I'm with Hype on this..I have done some hapkido in my day so I don't only know boxing..I love throwing elbows..haha..I've done some wrestling too back when I was into WWF(for real,not just pretending)..The shit is really effective..I would think boxing,a art like hapkido(so you learn breaks and elbows and kicks) and wrestling would be the best skills to have in the UFC..I also have done some JJ at my gym as well..I don't like it though..I'd rather is stuck in a clinch than be "rolling" with guys on the matt in JJ..JJ is a good skill to have but how much JJ are you going to be doing if you're at a bar or something?When it comes down to it,you start on your feet so you can use your legs to avoids shoots and use a jab to help keep distance while moving..So,in logic,the boxer has the advantage since you start standing up and could end a fight before it goes to the ground..A boxer learns to anticipate and not assume..It'll be a dope fight to see..
QUOTE (AussieLad @ Jun 4 2010, 02:56 AM)
LOL at you LOLing at my LOLing... LOL
QUOTE (AussieLad @ Jun 4 2010, 02:56 AM)
Well, if its so easy to learn to sprawl and stop an accomplished wrestler like couture, i cant see how Toney can lose? We'll just wait for the inevitable victory then shall we
I never said it was "so easy"...I just said it's easier to teach someone how to sprawl than it is to teach them how to get proper leverage on an uppercut (something that Todd Duffee needs to learn how to do better). Again, you're twisting what I'm saying...but whatever mate. The point is, if I was an absolute novice and didn't know how to do anything, I guarantee I'd be able to pick up sprawling than I would proper punching technique.
QUOTE (AussieLad @ Jun 4 2010, 02:56 AM)
The only pressure in this fight will be from Toneys head as he gets pummelled against the cage
If you don't think there's any pressure on Randy Couture to perform and perform well, then you're mistaken. If Toney loses and gets "pummelled against the cage"....well guess what? According to you, and a lot of other fan boys, he was supposed to...no shame in that. If Randy loses however....shiiiiiit....oh, well then it will be because Toney "got lucky" or Randy "got old". LOL.
QUOTE (AussieLad @ Jun 4 2010, 02:56 AM)
And the fact is, that wrestling is the best base style to enter into MMA. Better than boxing, better than muay thai, better than JJ. So yes, i do give lesnar a better chance vs Randy and always will. Wrestling is applicable to more aspects of the sport. It can be used to control a striker against the cage, and it can be used to control position and avoid the submissions of a JJ fighter. Boxing is merely 25 percent of the striking game. Reference me how many guys who'se primary skillset has been boxing that have won world championships in the UFC or Pride as opposed to wrestlers and see how the numbers stack up
That's not "fact" at all...that's opinion. I know a lot of fighters who say it doesn't matter. I know a lot of fighters who say wrestling. I know a lot of fighters who say kickboxing. You're "fact" is based solely on what? I mean, you tell me how many wrestlers won championships in Pride. Did Fedor or Nogueira get their start in wrestling? Hell no...they started in Judo. How about Wanderlei Silva? Takanori Gomi? Shogun Rua? Cro Cop? Misaki? NONE of those guys started off in wrestling. In fact, the only Pride champions I can think of who were wrestlers were Dan Henderson and Mark Coleman...and that's just going off the top of my head. As for the UFC, no doubt, they've had a lot of champions who's strength was wrestling, particularly in the early years...Jens Pulver, Mark Coleman, Randy Couture, Ken Shamrock, Mark Kerr, Kevin Randleman, Pat Miletich, Tito Ortiz, Chuck Liddell and Matt Hughes all come to mind. But they've also had a shit load of champions who's specialty IS NOT wrestling...Royce Gracie, Rua, Machida, Anderson Silva. The point is, while wrestling certainly is a good skill set to start off with, apparently, so is BJJ, Judo, Karate and evidently any skill set. To say that one is better simply because x amount of fighters with that particular skill set have become champions is a bit naive, in my opinion. I mean, you have to take into consideration that there's probably more wrestlers in the sport than anything else to begin with because wrestlers don't have any other pro sport to gravitate towards. Boxers obviously go to boxing...Muay Thai go to kickboxing...wrestlers, on the other hand, go to MMA, so the sport is going to be watered down with their kind in the first place. Riddle me this...since there are so many of them in the sport, exactly how many CURRENT champions in any MMA organization are "wrestlers"? Let me know how those numbers stack up.
Reference me how many guys whose primary skill set has been boxing that are even in the sport to begin with. As far as I know, most guys whose primary skill set is boxing are guess what...THEY'RE BOXERS! You're not going to see very many "boxers" in the sport to begin with simply because they're going to be trying to make it in boxing. DUUUUUUH!
QUOTE (AussieLad @ Jun 4 2010, 02:56 AM)
As for me giving toney no chance, mate i said he has a chance, in the first 30 seconds as the fight starts on the feet. 30 seconds is how long i give him till the fight is off the feet. So i dont know what your on about
I'm not on about anything mate. I just think you're being narrow-minded if you think that because someone is labeled as a "boxer", that automatically means that it's going to be easy to take them to the ground.
QUOTE (AussieLad @ Jun 4 2010, 02:56 AM)
Should be funny, how many fights has toney had? If lesnar could beat couture with only 4 or 5 fights then Toney must indeed be a lock, being an elite boxer with so much big fight experience. On the other hand, what does that say if he loses
You're being facetious...but whatever. The irony is that Lesnar didn't even beat Couture with his great wrestling experience. He basically grazed the weak chin of ol' man Couture with a punch. LOL. And like Couture's OWN TRAINER always says...once that trigger has been pulled, it becomes easier and easier to pull it. Hell, Toney may not even have to land a punch. If he huffs and he puffs hard enough, he might be able to drop Couture simply by blowing on that chin. LOL.
Hey, if he loses, not a big deal since, like you say, he's only got a 30-second window to win in the first place. I mean, if that's all he's got...why even watch the fight in the first place? I can't imagine you would be foolish enough to spend $49.95 for a PPV main event that's only going to last 30 seconds. LOL.
I love how wrestling is supposed to be the skill set to have, and yet, you see fewer and fewer guys actually wrestling inside the Octagon. Frankie Edgar sure as hell didn't use any of his wrestling skills to jack the title from BJ Penn. LOL. In fact, the irony is that when someone DOES use their wrestling abilities, like Rashad did against Rampage, they get labeled a boring fighter because most fan boys want to see guys stand and trade. LOL. MMA fans are closet boxing fans and they don't even know it. LOL.
QUOTE (thehype @ Jun 4 2010, 10:25 AM)
Did Fedor or Nogueira get their start in wrestling? Hell no...they started in Judo.
Fedor started in Sambo, which definitely has strong wrestling roots. He moved into Judo later, which emphasizes grappling and throws. While Fedor didn't have the western concept of a wrestling base, he did in reality practice an art which essentially shares the same tenants.
Ditto for Big Nog, though I guess I should point out Nog trained boxing before he ever trained BJJ, so I think that actually works in favor of your initial argument.
QUOTE
How about Wanderlei Silva? Takanori Gomi? Shogun Rua? Cro Cop? Misaki? NONE of those guys started off in wrestling.
I don't want to speak for Aussielad, but I think his point is that it is much easier for wrestlers to transition into MMA and have immediate success than it is for fighters from other disciplines. And I think we can all agree on that.
It is nice to come in with Muay Thai. In fact it is great. I think Muay Thai is paramount in MMA. But a pure wrestler will go further in MMA than a pure Muay Thai fighter. Look at Gilbert Yvel. The guy couldn't out-wrestle a paraplegic, and he has paid dearly for it.
QUOTE
In fact, the only Pride champions I can think of who were wrestlers were Dan Henderson and Mark Coleman...and that's just going off the top of my head. As for the UFC, no doubt, they've had a lot of champions who's strength was wrestling, particularly in the early years...Jens Pulver, Mark Coleman, Randy Couture, Ken Shamrock, Mark Kerr, Kevin Randleman, Pat Miletich, Tito Ortiz, Chuck Liddell and Matt Hughes all come to mind.
I'd leave Shamrock and Liddell off that list. Shamrock got his start in Pancrase, but could hardly be considered a "wrestler." Liddell has a wrestling background but never used it (except to stuff takedowns) and never claimed it as his specialty. Kenpo was Chuck's "specialty" officially, though in reality Chuck was a kickboxer who liked to throw bolo-punches from the hip. And a better day I cannot think of then the day he got owned by Rampage (2x) and reduced to tears.
Well that's it for me. I hate wrestlers with a passion. Hate their fucking guts and wish they'd all die. But the truth remains, wrestling is a great base to have in MMA, probably the best base, to be honest. It sucks but it's true.
Boxing, actually, isn't too hot because the stance is all wrong. It leaves guys open to leg kicks which they can't check. If Toney doesn't get hit with a leg kick (which he failed to check) I'll shit my pants and eat it too.
And just so you guys know I'm not just being a biased prick, my sincere hope is that James Toney KO's Randy brutally. Not because I hate Randy, but because I like James and I want to see him do well. And I want to see Dana White get punished for putting James in with someone of Randy's calibre so early. And because Dana deserves to be laughed at for bringing in Kimbo Slice.
Later.
P.S. JonnyBlaze you're a cool dude and I like you, but I'm still laughing at you somehow thinking a boxing punch and a "strike" are different.
Any punch or kick qualifies as a strike, lol. Don't go trying to over-analyze that shit.
QUOTE (Warlord @ Jun 4 2010, 11:36 AM)
Fedor started in Sambo, which definitely has strong wrestling roots. He moved into Judo later, which emphasizes grappling and throws. While Fedor didn't have the western concept of a wrestling base, he did in reality practice an art which essentially shares the same tenants.
Ditto for Big Nog, though I guess I should point out Nog trained boxing before he ever trained BJJ, so I think that actually works in favor of your initial argument.
Ditto for Big Nog, though I guess I should point out Nog trained boxing before he ever trained BJJ, so I think that actually works in favor of your initial argument.
I was actually under the impression that Sambo was more rooted in Judo and Karate than traditional "collegiate wrestling"...but that's neither here nor there, as I don't intend to turn this into a discussion about "what is sambo".
QUOTE (Warlord @ Jun 4 2010, 11:36 AM)
I don't want to speak for Aussielad, but I think his point is that it is much easier for wrestlers to transition into MMA and have immediate success than it is for fighters from other disciplines. And I think we can all agree on that.
It is nice to come in with Muay Thai. In fact it is great. I think Muay Thai is paramount in MMA. But a pure wrestler will go further in MMA than a pure Muay Thai fighter. Look at Gilbert Yvel. The guy couldn't out-wrestle a paraplegic, and he has paid dearly for it.
It is nice to come in with Muay Thai. In fact it is great. I think Muay Thai is paramount in MMA. But a pure wrestler will go further in MMA than a pure Muay Thai fighter. Look at Gilbert Yvel. The guy couldn't out-wrestle a paraplegic, and he has paid dearly for it.
No need to translate for Aussielad...I know what he's getting at, but that's exactly what I'm disagreeing with. The point I'm trying to make is that I think it's naive to think that a person who comes from one particular background, be it wrestling, judo, jiu jitsu or boxing, won't be able to pick up enough knowledge in another background and find success in MMA. I mean, if these were the days when a "pure boxer" would step into the cage with a "pure wrestler", then yeah, I'd totally agree with you...but MMA has changed a lot since UFC 1...not just in the fighting styles, but also in the training and the sharing of knowledge in different disciplines. In my opinion, I think LEARNING whatever you would need to learn in "wrestling" in order to be effective is a lot easier than LEARNING whatever you would need to learn in "jiu jitsu" in order to be effective. Similarly, I think it's a lot easier to teach someone how to sprawl or get a double or single leg takedown than it is to teach someone effective Muay Thai techniques from the clinch. Again, I'm not saying one style is better than the other...I'm just saying when it comes to having to learn a new set of tools to add to your repertoire, personally, I think it's easier to pick up wrestling than any of the other disciplines. In other words, I think James Toney could pick up enough "wrestling" knowledge from King Mo in an extremely short period of time to where he could have a decent amount of success preventing a takedown. On the contrary, Tito Ortiz could spend 6 months working with Freddie Roach and he'd likely still be a shitty striker.
QUOTE (Warlord @ Jun 4 2010, 11:36 AM)
I'd leave Shamrock and Liddell off that list. Shamrock got his start in Pancrase, but could hardly be considered a "wrestler." Liddell has a wrestling background but never used it (except to stuff takedowns) and never claimed it as his specialty. Kenpo was Chuck's "specialty" officially, though in reality Chuck was a kickboxer who liked to throw bolo-punches from the hip. And a better day I cannot think of then the day he got owned by Rampage (2x) and reduced to tears.
I wouldn't leave them off the list...which is why I didn't in the first place...simply because when I refer to someone who's a "wrestler", I'm talking about guys that primarily got their early experience wrestling in high school and college (I believe both Ken and Chuck started off wrestling in high school/college...although I'm sure they were probably doing other things too)....but if you want to be all technical about it, then okay...that's cool...there are a few different forms of wrestling (Greco Roman, freestyle), so technically, we'd probably have to break that list down even more...and like you said, Chuck almost NEVER uses any wrestling skills inside the cage, so calling him a "wrestler" is a bit of a stretch. But whatever...I think you got my point.
QUOTE (Warlord @ Jun 4 2010, 11:36 AM)
Well that's it for me. I hate wrestlers with a passion. Hate their fucking guts and wish they'd all die. But the truth remains, wrestling is a great base to have in MMA, probably the best base, to be honest. It sucks but it's true.
Boxing, actually, isn't too hot because the stance is all wrong. It leaves guys open to leg kicks which they can't check. If Toney doesn't get hit with a leg kick (which he failed to check) I'll shit my pants and eat it too.
Boxing, actually, isn't too hot because the stance is all wrong. It leaves guys open to leg kicks which they can't check. If Toney doesn't get hit with a leg kick (which he failed to check) I'll shit my pants and eat it too.
Disagree. See above. Not to mention, if I was going into the UFC, I'd rather be some type of striker given the fact that so many of the fighters have virtually abandoned their ground game in favor of striking. LOL. Speaking of leg kicks though, does Randy still throw those? LOL.
QUOTE (Warlord @ Jun 4 2010, 11:36 AM)
And just so you guys know I'm not just being a biased prick, my sincere hope is that James Toney KO's Randy brutally. Not because I hate Randy, but because I like James and I want to see him do well. And I want to see Dana White get punished for putting James in with someone of Randy's calibre so early. And because Dana deserves to be laughed at for bringing in Kimbo Slice.
Later.
P.S. JonnyBlaze you're a cool dude and I like you, but I'm still laughing at you somehow thinking a boxing punch and a "strike" are different. Any punch or kick qualifies as a strike, lol. Don't go trying to over-analyze that shit.
Later.
P.S. JonnyBlaze you're a cool dude and I like you, but I'm still laughing at you somehow thinking a boxing punch and a "strike" are different.
Any punch or kick qualifies as a strike, lol. Don't go trying to over-analyze that shit.Totally agree with that though.
QUOTE (Warlord @ Jun 4 2010, 10:36 AM)
P.S. JonnyBlaze you're a cool dude and I like you, but I'm still laughing at you somehow thinking a boxing punch and a "strike" are different. Any punch or kick qualifies as a strike, lol. Don't go trying to over-analyze that shit.
Any punch or kick qualifies as a strike, lol. Don't go trying to over-analyze that shit.Hahahaha..You know I like to over-analyze..Not in this instinance but others,I think it's necessary to break down the small details since the small details is what wins a fight..The guy who makes the least amount of mistakes wins..
QUOTE (thehype @ Jun 4 2010, 09:25 AM)
I never said it was "so easy"...I just said it's easier to teach someone how to sprawl than it is to teach them how to get proper leverage on an uppercut (something that Todd Duffee needs to learn how to do better). Again, you're twisting what I'm saying...but whatever mate. The point is, if I was an absolute novice and didn't know how to do anything, I guarantee I'd be able to pick up sprawling than I would proper punching technique.
From what I've done,I COMPLETELY agree..Learning proper punching technique is insane..There are so many small details involved it's mind blowing..Hand position,body position,feet position,head position are the beginning before getting the technique of the punch and how to get the leverage..If you're standing square,how are you going to get full leverage??The leverage comes from the hips by pivoting correctly..Also,you need to find the snap on the punches from the shoulder which isn't an easy thing to do when you've never done it before..
Randy Couture is so overrated, I mean so overrated. He got big after beating Tim Silvia, they still loved him before b/c he's an old american boy, whatever.... but after he beat Sylvia who everybody hated, he jumped up on a pedestal or smth. His record is like 17-10 with, but if they scored the fights probably more like 16-11 or 15-12. This guy is a legend to MMA fans but he is as overrated as Frank Mir who get knocked out or destroyed every third fight or so.
As far as why boxers haven't made in the UFC or MMA. They haven't been motivated, that's why. Koscheck made 10 k to get his ass whooped by GSP. Boxers make much more money in boxing to ever consider MMA. If a good boxer and good wrestler start their mma career at the same time only then can we say that wrestlers have a much better transitions. Heck there the best guys in the world like Fedor and GSP who weren't wrestlers, destroy wrestlers at their own game. Fedor destroyed Cro Cop at kickboxing and that's not even his thing, so it just goes to show you that it's not the sport but the fighter.
If Wlad starts MMA he would destroy most of the guys there, Can you imagine Brock getting hit by a jab and right from Wlad.
So war in MMA we've had ray Mercer who is 50 years old and Butterbean who is 500 pounds and they've had some success. Imagine if Wlad, Mayweather, Andre Ward would do to some people in MMA only after a few fights. Not only are they bad asses in their sports, they are amazing athletes and once you're an amazing athlete it is much easier to transition to another sport. Check Bo Jackson and Randy Moss.
Toney's past it in terms of skill, punch resistance, smarts and athletic ability but he's still 10 times better than Mercer and Butterbean.
As far as why boxers haven't made in the UFC or MMA. They haven't been motivated, that's why. Koscheck made 10 k to get his ass whooped by GSP. Boxers make much more money in boxing to ever consider MMA. If a good boxer and good wrestler start their mma career at the same time only then can we say that wrestlers have a much better transitions. Heck there the best guys in the world like Fedor and GSP who weren't wrestlers, destroy wrestlers at their own game. Fedor destroyed Cro Cop at kickboxing and that's not even his thing, so it just goes to show you that it's not the sport but the fighter.
If Wlad starts MMA he would destroy most of the guys there, Can you imagine Brock getting hit by a jab and right from Wlad.
So war in MMA we've had ray Mercer who is 50 years old and Butterbean who is 500 pounds and they've had some success. Imagine if Wlad, Mayweather, Andre Ward would do to some people in MMA only after a few fights. Not only are they bad asses in their sports, they are amazing athletes and once you're an amazing athlete it is much easier to transition to another sport. Check Bo Jackson and Randy Moss.
Toney's past it in terms of skill, punch resistance, smarts and athletic ability but he's still 10 times better than Mercer and Butterbean.
I made my opinion on MMA v Boxing clear on KENNYSOPRETTY'S thread on the subject.
I think JT takes out Couture.
I think JT takes out Couture.
QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ Jun 5 2010, 08:40 PM)
I made my opinion on MMA v Boxing clear on KENNYSOPRETTY'S thread on the subject.
I think JT takes out Couture.
I think JT takes out Couture.
I hope he wins but I think he won't. Would you be willing to put your pride on the line in a sig bet?
QUOTE (Warlord @ Jun 6 2010, 12:15 AM)
I hope he wins but I think he won't. Would you be willing to put your pride on the line in a sig bet?
I don't do pride, Warlord.
I just think that Couture is there to be taken. If it was going to be The Pudgy Russian v JT, my breakdown would be different.
Of course no-one is going to take a sig bet backing toney. No-one here is that stupid. Of course they will continue to support toney on paper, pooing on MMA fighters as scrubs who couldnt make it in boxing, how striking is superior to wrestling, laughing at how "easy" it is to win a MMA title, "boxers just need to learn to sprawl and they would own everyone" etc... But when push comes to shove, no-one here has the courage of their conviction...
Cammon people, this is James Toney... the guy with all the boxing skill in the world. He only has to learn how to sprawl... easy stuff.... And he's fighting a small heavyweight in couture, not some goliath klitschko... how could you not go with Toney???????? Oh wait, thats right, you dont actually believe in what your saying...
Cammon people, this is James Toney... the guy with all the boxing skill in the world. He only has to learn how to sprawl... easy stuff.... And he's fighting a small heavyweight in couture, not some goliath klitschko... how could you not go with Toney???????? Oh wait, thats right, you dont actually believe in what your saying...
QUOTE (blackbelt2003 @ Jun 3 2010, 08:46 AM)
Whichever way it goes, notice it's Toney fighting Couture in the octagon and not Couture fighting Toney in the boxing-ring.
That says a lot about the two men.
Black
That says a lot about the two men.
Black
It says Toney is desperate for publicity & Randy is obliging his desire to suffer needless pain. I hope Couture hurts him badly like broken arm territory or a broken knee.
QUOTE (thehype @ Jun 4 2010, 03:05 AM)
The funny thing about MMA is that I could start training today and in a year's time, I could be in the UFC and after 2 fights, I can be fighting for the title and possibly win. Case in point, all the experience and skill in "dirty boxing" that Randy Couture had didn't do shit for him against a guy who had less than 5 fights.
You left out the part about being a elite level wrestler for most of your life.
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Jun 7 2010, 06:28 AM)
You left out the part about being a elite level wrestler for most of your life.
Because it would defeat his previous argument that having wrestling as a base is not any more advantageous than having other styles as your base.
That's why I don't even bother to have protracted arguments about this shit anymore. Most people simply cannot be objective about it. Pure boxing fans will shit on MMA because they think it isn't tactical enough. (A fallacy, at best.)
MMA fans will shit on boxing because they feel if it was a true, no holds barred match, MMA fighters would wipe the floor with a boxer.
Then you've got people who know what's up on both sides, but have a horse in the race so they say dumb shit anyway. MMA fighters back MMA, ala Couture. Boxers back boxing, ala Hopkins.
Journalists and websites will back whichever fighters they are cool with and doing interviews with, and they'll rail the fighters they aren't cool with or have some prior history with. (Greg Leon w/ Floyd Mayweather, for example.)
And then you got guys who are legitimately fans of both sports, and can have a reasonable discussion about both. Fighthype has 4 of those, I think. Me, you, Percy, and Aussielad. Everyone else has a horse in this race, regardless of what they say. I mean, it's cool and all, but lets just be honest about it.
QUOTE (thehype @ Jun 4 2010, 04:26 PM)
I think it's easier to pick up wrestling than any of the other disciplines.
If it were, then again, guys who didn't have wrestling would eventually pick it up, wouldn't they? But they don't. Guys with shitty wrestling and shitty take-down defense just can't seem to learn, for whatever reason.
I go back to Gilbert Yvel. The guy has been working on his wrestling for YEARS, and made zero improvement. Paul Daley is another example. See his fight with Koscheck (a wrestler) for results. Chris Leben is another great example. Zero wrestling, and none coming.
What do these guys have in common? HEAVY fucking hands, great offensive fighters, zero fucking ground game.
If fighters could pick up the subtleties of the ground game quickly, easily, or at all, they'd be doing it. But they haven't. Show me an example of a fighter who had a garbage ground game but then managed to pick one up somewhere along the way.
QUOTE
In other words, I think James Toney could pick up enough "wrestling" knowledge from King Mo in an extremely short period of time to where he could have a decent amount of success preventing a takedown.
I don't. Randy takes Toney down at will. And this is coming from a guy that PRAYS James Toney decapitates Randy.
QUOTE
On the contrary, Tito Ortiz could spend 6 months working with Freddie Roach and he'd likely still be a shitty striker.
Isolated case. There was a time when Rampage Jackson had suspect hands. Sloppy technique. The works. It's fun to pretend now that he's always been a striker, but the truth is, he hasn't. In fact, Quinton once trained with Tito Ortiz to, gasp, improve his striking. That ought to tell you something right there.
Rampage's striking became a strength because he worked on it. (And now it is actually a weakness again, because it's all he does.)
Rashad Evans, Josh Koscheck, Georges St. Pierre, all good examples of wrestlers who picked up decent-good striking skills along the way.
QUOTE
If I was going into the UFC, I'd rather be some type of striker given the fact that so many of the fighters have virtually abandoned their ground game in favor of striking.
They have? I must be seeing something different. I don't see guys like GSP and Brock Lesnar even PRETENDING like they want to be strikers. I think everyone and their mama knows what is going to happen with those guys.
QUOTE
LOL. Speaking of leg kicks though, does Randy still throw those? LOL.
Ask Tim Sylvia.
QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ Jun 8 2010, 12:01 AM)
I could say that I hope that you trip, fall on your face and break that clitoris where a nose should be, but I don't wish serious harm on other beings.
Thats cool. I wish enough for both of us & a broken arm or leg sustained in the combat arena is not serious harm it is a occupational hazard. It ain't like I am wishing he ends up like Meldrick Taylor.
QUOTE (Fitz @ Jun 7 2010, 10:51 PM)
Agreed Warlord. I'm not a fan of MMA, well I wouldn't say I hate it, I just don't follow it closely and it doesn't appeal to me like boxing does. But I still respect it, and you are spot on with so many things about people liking both sports, but still say stupid shit because they have a horse in the race.
For me it's just so simple. Boxers are better at what they do, and MMA fighters are better at what they do.
For me it's just so simple. Boxers are better at what they do, and MMA fighters are better at what they do.
That's it, in a nutshell.
QUOTE
It's simple as that and I don't know why so many idiots get so defensive about who would win.
People don't compare how a squash player would go against a tennis player, who is better, a rugby player or NFL player. It just sounds so stupid sometimes. Like I said, don't follow it, though when I come across it, I do have an interest and follow it slightly if it's in front of me and that comes to reading posts about it as well. You are spot on about you and Aussielad being the only guys that can call it straight down the middle. Anyone else talking about it, I don't pay too close attention, even I can see the bias in some of the people who claim to like both and not be bias. Haven't read to much of percy as he doesn't post that often, but he seems ok as well. But yourself and Aussielad are the ones that come to mind first and whose opinion I respect on any subject regarding boxing-MMA and seem to be the only ones that talk sense.
People don't compare how a squash player would go against a tennis player, who is better, a rugby player or NFL player. It just sounds so stupid sometimes. Like I said, don't follow it, though when I come across it, I do have an interest and follow it slightly if it's in front of me and that comes to reading posts about it as well. You are spot on about you and Aussielad being the only guys that can call it straight down the middle. Anyone else talking about it, I don't pay too close attention, even I can see the bias in some of the people who claim to like both and not be bias. Haven't read to much of percy as he doesn't post that often, but he seems ok as well. But yourself and Aussielad are the ones that come to mind first and whose opinion I respect on any subject regarding boxing-MMA and seem to be the only ones that talk sense.
Appreciate the kind words, brother. I forgot to mention JD. I don't think I've ever seen him say or do anything stupid, and he's usually spot on with his predictions. I think he was the only one, besides me, who was picking Rashad to beat Rampage on this website.
QUOTE (Warlord @ Jun 8 2010, 05:36 AM)
I think he was the only one, besides me, who was picking Rashad to beat Rampage on this website.
I certainly picked Rashad but I don't think I publicised my opinion as I have been so damm busy getting ready to move to Fitz town.
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Jun 8 2010, 02:31 AM)
I certainly picked Rashad but I don't think I publicised my opinion as I have been so damm busy getting ready to move to Fitz town.
You moving by Fitz?
As for the whole MMA/Boxing argument - I really don't understand why people dismiss the wrestling/grappling side so quick.
I swear they think you just lie on your opponent, grab a limb and yank it back. That's like saying in boxing, you just move close your opponent and punch his face in.
JUST LIKE BOXING, it takes years to master. All combat arts do.
If the argument is about which one is better to have a background in, then I'd go with wrestling/grappling. Mainly because, like someone said earlier, punching is just a part of the whole striking game in MMA and an even smaller part in the whole MMA fight/tactics.
Punching and kicking are used the most, then knees and elbows. From then on - it's wrestling/grappling pretty much all the way.
Plus the 'boxing' technique - planting your feet, stances, etc leave you open for kicks and takedowns.
BTW, I'm a boxing fan first and foremost. I think it's a harder sport...but that's another topic
It's just annoying when boxing fans dismiss wrestling/grappling and equally annoying when wrestling/grappling fans dismiss boxing.
QUOTE (ROLL DEEP @ Jun 8 2010, 02:47 AM)
You moving by Fitz?
As for the whole MMA/Boxing argument - I really don't understand why people dismiss the wrestling/grappling side so quick.
I swear they think you just lie on your opponent, grab a limb and yank it back. That's like saying in boxing, you just move close your opponent and punch his face in.
JUST LIKE BOXING, it takes years to master. All combat arts do.
If the argument is about which one is better to have a background in, then I'd go with wrestling/grappling. Mainly because, like someone said earlier, punching is just a part of the whole striking game in MMA and an even smaller part in the whole MMA fight/tactics.
Punching and kicking are used the most, then knees and elbows. From then on - it's wrestling/grappling pretty much all the way.
Plus the 'boxing' technique - planting your feet, stances, etc leave you open for kicks and takedowns.
BTW, I'm a boxing fan first and foremost. I think it's a harder sport...but that's another topic
It's just annoying when boxing fans dismiss wrestling/grappling and equally annoying when wrestling/grappling fans dismiss boxing.
About boxing technique,a good boxer doesn't need to plant his feet to throw punches like Benny Leonard could do..He can punch on the move and have equal power..As for the boxing stance,it doesn't allow you to really throw kicks..Elbows and knees are more inside stuff so the stance is ok for those..Depending on your stance,if you're sideways,it will take away front kicks from your opponent but that's not the only type of kick your opponent will be throwing..For takedowns,a boxer could use his footwork and use stutter steps to confuse the wrestler and not allow to him know which way you're going to move..Boxers should be able to move equally as good going left and right but we know that's not the case and rightfully so..It's like basketball,you need to be able to dribble equally as good with both hands and be able to drive to the hoop from both sides..Defending a takedown after it's been started,is a different story..Those are things either you know how to do or don't..If the boxer has had street fights like a lot have in their life,they should have an idea on how to do it..
I also agree that wrestling is more than just twisting arms..To be able to get out of a choke isn't the easiest thing to learn..I also obviously do believe boxing is a harder sport like you said..
QUOTE (Fitz @ Jun 8 2010, 03:19 AM)
I also take Roll and blackbelt seriously as well, because I know they are well educated in a wide variety of combats. I have seen photos and they have spoken in the past about it as well. Blackbelt was also a trainer I believe and used to beat kids up in his dojo
But those two know what they are saying as well when, very experienced in combats. Jonny on the other hand, I believe is experienced in boxing, but I don't believe him for a minute when he speaks about some other MMA training or shit he has done. The way he even speaks about it is so broad, I get the feeling he did maybe 1 or 2 classes, says he did it so his comments on MMA vs boxing has more meritKnows his boxing inside out though, just not conviced one bit about his experience in the other combats he says he has, lol.
And yes, Stevenski is apparently coming to Melbourne to live. Stevenski, don't tarnish this city please
But those two know what they are saying as well when, very experienced in combats. Jonny on the other hand, I believe is experienced in boxing, but I don't believe him for a minute when he speaks about some other MMA training or shit he has done. The way he even speaks about it is so broad, I get the feeling he did maybe 1 or 2 classes, says he did it so his comments on MMA vs boxing has more merit
Knows his boxing inside out though, just not conviced one bit about his experience in the other combats he says he has, lol.And yes, Stevenski is apparently coming to Melbourne to live. Stevenski, don't tarnish this city please
hahaha..I guess we both were commenting at the same time..I've done a lot more than 1 or 2 classes but am definitely a lot more skilled in boxing than other arts..If I were to train in another art,I'd want to focus on hapkido again..I did like half a year training in it,either 2-3 times a week..I liked it a lot but didn't have time for it once I started getting serious about boxing..I learned a lot of breaks,chokes,knees,elbows,kicks,and throws..My kicks weren't that great but my elbows and knees definitely were..I've done a little karate but didn't like it..I've never been trained in wrestling but have done a lot of it in my day..haha..
QUOTE (Fitz @ Jun 8 2010, 09:19 AM)
And yes, Stevenski is apparently coming to Melbourne to live. Stevenski, don't tarnish this city please
You will feel a cool breeze & your skin will get goosebumps before the hate machine known as Stevenski rolls into town. That is because the city will sense the hate when I am still at Glenrowan.
I have to say I am really excited to be moving to Melbourne though it is a cool city. Hopefully we can catch up & watch a few fights as no one I know down there has any interest in boxing,
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Jun 8 2010, 05:12 AM)
Hopefully we can catch up & watch a few fights as no one I know down there has any interest in boxing,
QUOTE (Fitz @ Jun 8 2010, 05:30 AM)
Hahaha. That would be alright, my brother would maybe come as well. Watch a fight at the pub or something, something I haven't done in a while, lol.
Online dating: The Setup
double post
I started out as a fan of kickboxing (did alot of zen do kai, a bit of kyokushin and kempo ka as well as a kid), then i moved to boxing for a long time as my favourite sport. Lately, i think i am starting to give MMA an edge largely because of the unpredictability of it. It can end in so many different ways. But whilst it has an edge over boxing with me at the moment, the edge is slight.
Boxing certainly has its place in MMA. I think if you can combine strong wrestling with strong boxing, you have a pretty effective skillset to take into the octagon. The wrestling will let you dictate where the fight takes place. If your up against a superior striker, you can take it to the ground. If your up against a dangerous submission specialist, you can use it to stay on your feet. But you will always need some strong striking in your kit. Without it, you are at the mercy of someone who has strong take down defence, or who is a mover. If your predominantly a wrestler, and are up against a JJ expert, and you plan to stay on your feet but have no striking to back it up... your in trouble. And striking is necessary to close the gap so that a wrestler can clinch, or draw attention away from a shoot attempt.
What i have a problem with though is that guys with very basic take down defence are preety much at the mercy of anyone who can grapple. The grappling skill will always dictate where a fight takes place, whether it is offensive grappling aiming to take someone down, or defensive grappling aiming to stay on the feet. Being a pure striker in MMA is like the bushranger Ned Kelly, who had a breastplate and helmet made of steel. Impervious to bullets... except for his legs. A glaring weakness that can be exploited, and once that weakness is known... And just like boxing takes years to master, the athletes that will transition from a striking background to being able to defend a take down from someone like couture in 4 or 5 months are few and far between.
Toney has a chance. His fists are far and away better than any boxing you will see in the UFC, and that window of oppurtunity is gauranteed at the start. But his legs are a huge target, and boxing while pressed against the cage with someones forearm pressing into your throat, all the while threatening to take down... its a big ask even for someone as skilled at boxing as James
Boxing certainly has its place in MMA. I think if you can combine strong wrestling with strong boxing, you have a pretty effective skillset to take into the octagon. The wrestling will let you dictate where the fight takes place. If your up against a superior striker, you can take it to the ground. If your up against a dangerous submission specialist, you can use it to stay on your feet. But you will always need some strong striking in your kit. Without it, you are at the mercy of someone who has strong take down defence, or who is a mover. If your predominantly a wrestler, and are up against a JJ expert, and you plan to stay on your feet but have no striking to back it up... your in trouble. And striking is necessary to close the gap so that a wrestler can clinch, or draw attention away from a shoot attempt.
What i have a problem with though is that guys with very basic take down defence are preety much at the mercy of anyone who can grapple. The grappling skill will always dictate where a fight takes place, whether it is offensive grappling aiming to take someone down, or defensive grappling aiming to stay on the feet. Being a pure striker in MMA is like the bushranger Ned Kelly, who had a breastplate and helmet made of steel. Impervious to bullets... except for his legs. A glaring weakness that can be exploited, and once that weakness is known... And just like boxing takes years to master, the athletes that will transition from a striking background to being able to defend a take down from someone like couture in 4 or 5 months are few and far between.
Toney has a chance. His fists are far and away better than any boxing you will see in the UFC, and that window of oppurtunity is gauranteed at the start. But his legs are a huge target, and boxing while pressed against the cage with someones forearm pressing into your throat, all the while threatening to take down... its a big ask even for someone as skilled at boxing as James
QUOTE (JonnyBlaze @ Jun 8 2010, 04:22 AM)
About boxing technique,a good boxer doesn't need to plant his feet to throw punches like Benny Leonard could do..He can punch on the move and have equal power..As for the boxing stance,it doesn't allow you to really throw kicks..Elbows and knees are more inside stuff so the stance is ok for those..Depending on your stance,if you're sideways,it will take away front kicks from your opponent but that's not the only type of kick your opponent will be throwing..For takedowns,a boxer could use his footwork and use stutter steps to confuse the wrestler and not allow to him know which way you're going to move..Boxers should be able to move equally as good going left and right but we know that's not the case and rightfully so..It's like basketball,you need to be able to dribble equally as good with both hands and be able to drive to the hoop from both sides..Defending a takedown after it's been started,is a different story..Those are things either you know how to do or don't..If the boxer has had street fights like a lot have in their life,they should have an idea on how to do it..
I also agree that wrestling is more than just twisting arms..To be able to get out of a choke isn't the easiest thing to learn..I also obviously do believe boxing is a harder sport like you said..
I also agree that wrestling is more than just twisting arms..To be able to get out of a choke isn't the easiest thing to learn..I also obviously do believe boxing is a harder sport like you said..
Yeah, but the majority of boxers learn the more 'orthadox' style of keeping the feet plated to punch.
You got the top tier fighters who can punch whilst moving and actually jumping in (Naz was insane with some of the punches he'd throw)....but the larger % of boxers keep their feet on the ground more often than not.
Also, being involved in street fights doesn't prepare you for a pedigree wrestler taking you down....at all.
QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ Jun 9 2010, 01:54 PM)
Being a pedigree wrestler does not prepare your chin for a HOF boxer's precise blows. Neither of which have anything to do with my reasoning for picking JT.
I am picking JT because I consider him more dangerous.
What's Couture's record again? He can be had.
I am picking JT because I consider him more dangerous.
What's Couture's record again? He can be had.
Toney is going into the lion's den with a bow and arrow.
God bless him if he wins. But expect no miracles.
QUOTE (Warlord @ Jun 10 2010, 02:27 AM)
Toney is going into the lion's den with a bow and arrow.
God bless him if he wins. But expect no miracles.
God bless him if he wins. But expect no miracles.
The bow and arrow is a great analogy. He's going to be able to fire a few shots before the distance is closed, and he better make them count or it isnt going to be pretty. James can win, but i consider it fairly unlikely
QUOTE (ROLL DEEP @ Jun 9 2010, 01:38 PM)
Yeah, but the majority of boxers learn the more 'orthadox' style of keeping the feet plated to punch.
You got the top tier fighters who can punch whilst moving and actually jumping in (Naz was insane with some of the punches he'd throw)....but the larger % of boxers keep their feet on the ground more often than not.
Also, being involved in street fights doesn't prepare you for a pedigree wrestler taking you down....at all.
You got the top tier fighters who can punch whilst moving and actually jumping in (Naz was insane with some of the punches he'd throw)....but the larger % of boxers keep their feet on the ground more often than not.
Also, being involved in street fights doesn't prepare you for a pedigree wrestler taking you down....at all.
I completely agree with everything you said..Street fights can prepare to have a taste of other ways of fighting but not against a master wrestler..We've been goin back in forth for awhile,but I agree with your post..
I still am picking Toney to win though..
QUOTE (JonnyBlaze @ Jun 10 2010, 04:06 AM)
I completely agree with everything you said..Street fights can prepare to have a taste of other ways of fighting but not against a master wrestler..We've been goin back in forth for awhile,but I agree with your post..
I still am picking Toney to win though..
I still am picking Toney to win though..
We can always agree that Canibus, AOTP and RA the Rugged Man are dope
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