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TRU
This is one of the best boxing forum's with some good knowledgeable posters who I respect to a high degree.

I want some honest opinions from you boxing fans.

Does Pacquiao's rise from 122 pounds to 147 make you think he took something to get there?

I'll be honest and state that I don't think so.

It's cute to make jokes about the whole ordeal but honestly, in your heart of hearts, do any of you TRUly believe that the guy took any illegal performance enhancing drugs in order to effectively rise in weight classes?
Maxy
Personally I don't believe it because Pac's fighting weight has remained similar for years now, even when he was boxing in lower weight classes. I also think that his punches are having a greater effect on his opponents because he is naturally stronger at the higher weight classes and hasn't had to boil down.

But I am a romanticist who hopes never to be proven wrong on this issue.
TRU
QUOTE (Maxy @ Jun 29 2010, 12:34 PM) *
Personally I don't believe it because Pac's fighting weight has remained similar for years now, even when he was boxing in lower weight classes. I also think that his punches are having a greater effect on his opponents because he is naturally stronger at the higher weight classes and hasn't had to boil down.

But I am a romanticist who hopes never to be proven wrong on this issue.


Seems fair enough to me.

The thing about Pac's punches is that he has almost zero telegraph on his shots which seems to catch opponents relatively blind especially coming from a lefty. Some people feel as though he's a monstrous puncher at welterweight which was hardly evident in the Clottey fight. If he was that heavy-handed of a fighter he would have been busting through Clottey's guard IMO.

He's a great combination lefty with no telegraph in his shots and that helps him put the pain on his opponents.
Mean Mister Mustard
Geez with all the lax testing on illegal substances I find it hard to believe these guys would not take them. What seems strange is the way Pacquiao has jumped up from 122 to 147 and his body is still ripped and he still punches with concussive power. His fans can offer all sorts of reasons why this is: His body is special, he trains extremely hard so he burns the calories off, his punching power is still the same because he has humongous legs and so on.

I think we can suspect he takes something but until he tests positive none of us can really know.
TRU
QUOTE (Mean Mister Mustard @ Jun 29 2010, 01:00 PM) *
Geez with all the lax testing on illegal substances I find it hard to believe these guys would not take them. What seems strange is the way Pacquiao has jumped up from 122 to 147 and his body is still ripped and he still punches with concussive power. His fans can offer all sorts of reasons why this is: His body is special, he trains extremely hard so he burns the calories off, his punching power is still the same because he has humongous legs and so on.

I think we can suspect he takes something but until he tests positive none of us can really know.


What about the argument that alot of fighters have moved up in weight in the past with similar results?

Do you really believe his punching power is that great at 47? He never knocked De la Hoya off his feet, never even slightly hurt a defensive based Clottey, got a referee stoppage over Cotto and knocked out a Hatton who was dropped hard by Juan Lazcano the fight before, knocked out by Mayweather, and hurt badly by Collazo as well.

I'm just saying, concussive power is concussive power. there's a difference between that and quick hand release, combination punching, and good punch placement. Is there not?
Mean Mister Mustard
QUOTE (TRU @ Jun 29 2010, 01:06 PM) *
What about the argument that alot of fighters have moved up in weight in the past with similar results?

Do you really believe his punching power is that great at 47? He never knocked De la Hoya off his feet, never even slightly hurt a defensive based Clottey, got a referee stoppage over Cotto and knocked out a Hatton who was dropped hard by Juan Lazcano the fight before, knocked out by Mayweather, and hurt badly by Collazo as well.

I'm just saying, concussive power is concussive power. There's a difference between that and quick hand release, combination punching, and good punch placement. Is there not?


I understand your point about Pacquiao's accuracy and quick relaease but lots of fighters have accuracy and none of them ever knocked out Hatton in 2 rounds. Who has ever stopped Clottey? He dropped Cotto twice. Now I know your argument is that they got caught with punches they didn't see, but that happens a lot and does not always result in knickdowns. Pacquiao's power is that good. Does this mean he's roiding? No, I was simply pointing out that it was one of the things that jump out as strange.
JD
I don't think he is on anything.

The in ring weight has been close to the same for a very long time...it's amazing what not sucking weight can do for a guy. Especially if they are a freak and consistently improving.
rusty_trombone
I lean to the side that he is probably not juicing, but god knows what kinds of shit you can get in the phillipines
Nay_Sayer
QUOTE (TRU @ Jun 29 2010, 12:29 PM) *
Does Pacquiao's rise from 122 pounds to 147 make you think he took something to get there?


How many guys can you name that have come from Super Bantamweight up to Welterweight and brought legitimate KO power?
TRU
QUOTE (Mean Mister Mustard @ Jun 29 2010, 01:25 PM) *
I understand your point about Pacquiao's accuracy and quick relaease but lots of fighters have accuracy and none of them ever knocked out Hatton in 2 rounds. Who has ever stopped Clottey? He dropped Cotto twice. Now I know your argument is that they got caught with punches they didn't see, but that happens a lot and does not always result in knickdowns. Pacquiao's power is that good. Does this mean he's roiding? No, I was simply pointing out that it was one of the things that jump out as strange.


You're right in stating that nobody has knocked out Hatton in 2 rounds but he did get hurt badly against a moderate punching lefty in Collazo..., Lazcano had his ass badly on queer street from a marginal left hook, and Mayweather knocked him out with a solid but nothing crazy check left hook.

After having fought twice at welter then moving back down to 140 (a weight he'd been struggling to make since 2005), i believe that Hatton's punch resistance was vastly overrated going into that fight. He also fought it completely offensive which gave Pac plenty of opportunities to touch that chin and touch it cleanly.

I just think Pac's career has progressed in a different fashion than others.

Take a look at this kid Mercito Gesta who also happens to be filipino. The kid started off at 15 years old weighing 112, and now he's 22 fighting at 135 and probably eventually 140.

Everyone mentions how consistently ripped Pac is even on the way up but you can say the same things for alot of guys that move up. Hopkins moved up 15 pounds and remained chiseled. Same with mayweather from 130 all the way up to 152 or whatever weight he fought Oscar at. I'm just saying, it's not all that strange.

Pac's effectiveness at the higher weights could be seen as fighting compromised guys as well...
JD
Also...if you look at him, he is built from the base up really. He has always had a very solid base.
TRU
QUOTE (Nay_Sayer @ Jun 29 2010, 01:34 PM) *
How many guys can you name that have come from Super Bantamweight up to Welterweight and brought legitimate KO power?


I can't name any super bantams that moved up to welter that brought legitimate KO power.

However, I can name another super featherweight who moved up to junior middleweight that had legitimate KO power.
Maxy
When speaking about Pacquiao's KO over Hatton, lets not forget that Hatton was floored by a right hand from Eamon Magee on his road to the top. He was hurt that night and Magee isn't a world class puncher. Collazo hurt him too as mentioned.

I'm not gonna buy into this "Pac is on drugs" thing until he fails a test....but as far as testing goes it should be the same right across the board.

And draining to make weight significantly diminishes strength so it's not a surprise that he is more comfortable now.
TRU
QUOTE (Maxy @ Jun 29 2010, 01:49 PM) *
When speaking about Pacquiao's KO over Hatton, lets not forget that Hatton was floored by a right hand from Eamon Magee on his road to the top. He was hurt that night and Magee isn't a world class puncher. Collazo hurt him too as mentioned.

I'm not gonna buy into this "Pac is on drugs" thing until he fails a test....but as far as testing goes it should be the same right across the board.

And draining to make weight significantly diminishes strength so it's not a surprise that he is more comfortable now.


Yep, pretty much the most impressive thing about the Hatton-Pac fight was the fact that Pac's legs were so good that he was able to get away from the clutches of the hitman.

Without being able to wrap his arms around a guy, Hatton's style is very limited at best. His whole game is based on throwing hard shots then tying up, then mauling inside, repeat over and over and over again.

If someone had told me beforehand that there was no way Hatton would be able to hug Pac to death, I would have easily have taken Pac by KO based on Hatton's shaky chin in all the fights leading up this bout against the pinoy.
Nay_Sayer
QUOTE (TRU @ Jun 29 2010, 01:43 PM) *
However, I can name another super featherweight who moved up to junior middleweight that had legitimate KO power.

Who?
JD
Oscar De La Hoya
Nay_Sayer
QUOTE (JD @ Jun 29 2010, 02:37 PM) *
Oscar De La Hoya

Sorry but no.

Oscar's power @ 154 was, at best, average...
rusty_trombone
QUOTE (Nay_Sayer @ Jun 29 2010, 03:41 PM) *
Sorry but no.

Oscar's power @ 154 was, at best, average...

didn't he ko mayorga, vargas, and campas @ 154? mayorga has a serious chin, vernon forrest hit that guy with everything and didnt dent it
SENTRAL
Henry Armstrong knocked guys out from featherweight through to welterweight and was a better fighter in the latter weight class.
Nay_Sayer
QUOTE (rusty_trombone @ Jun 29 2010, 02:49 PM) *
didn't he ko mayorga, vargas, and campas @ 154? mayorga has a serious chin, vernon forrest hit that guy with everything and didnt dent it

Mayorga had already been drubbed to death by Trinidad. Same goes for Vargas. Campas was an OLE assed man. A 38 year old 156lb Bernard Hopkins was in no way shape or form impressed by de la Hoya's alleged "power".
JD
QUOTE (Nay_Sayer @ Jun 29 2010, 03:41 PM) *
Sorry but no.

Oscar's power @ 154 was, at best, average...


No one is calling him Julian Jackson...but to pretend that Oscar did not have legit KO power at 154 is kind of silly.

At best average? OK. LOL
Mean Mister Mustard
QUOTE (TRU @ Jun 29 2010, 02:35 PM) *
You're right in stating that nobody has knocked out Hatton in 2 rounds but he did get hurt badly against a moderate punching lefty in Collazo..., Lazcano had his ass badly on queer street from a marginal left hook, and Mayweather knocked him out with a solid but nothing crazy check left hook.

After having fought twice at welter then moving back down to 140 (a weight he'd been struggling to make since 2005), i believe that Hatton's punch resistance was vastly overrated going into that fight. He also fought it completely offensive which gave Pac plenty of opportunities to touch that chin and touch it cleanly.

I just think Pac's career has progressed in a different fashion than others.

Take a look at this kid Mercito Gesta who also happens to be filipino. The kid started off at 15 years old weighing 112, and now he's 22 fighting at 135 and probably eventually 140.

Everyone mentions how consistently ripped Pac is even on the way up but you can say the same things for alot of guys that move up. Hopkins moved up 15 pounds and remained chiseled. Same with mayweather from 130 all the way up to 152 or whatever weight he fought Oscar at. I'm just saying, it's not all that strange.

Pac's effectiveness at the higher weights could be seen as fighting compromised guys as well...


Actually Hopkins lost a bit of that definition after the Tarver fight but I get your point. Until Pacquiao tests positive for something no one can say he is roided but then again, that's what his detractors will emphasize; the fact that he refuses to be tested.
KookedKrack
I think he is on something ......too much muscle mass put on with no loss of speed. Not saying that it isn't possible for him to be natural I just think it's HIGHLY unlikely. Steroid use is more rampant than a lot of people think and I'm not just talking about in sports. Add in the the multiple excuses not to take a blood test and it makes it a lot more likely in my opinion.
neophyte7
QUOTE (KookedKrack @ Jun 29 2010, 04:48 PM) *
I think he is on something ......too much muscle mass put on with no loss of speed. Not saying that it isn't possible for him to be natural I just think it's HIGHLY unlikely. Steroid use is more rampant than a lot of people think and I'm not just talking about in sports. Add in the the multiple excuses not to take a blood test and it makes it a lot more likely in my opinion.



If the man was clean it seems to me that with the state of American Sports and the steroid scandals in baseball. boxing, (A-rod, Dave Ortiz, Manny Ramirez to name a few, basketball (Lewis of Orlando Magic) etc... Balco etc... It would seem logical to dispel the rumors. If he is clean it only enhances his legacy as a great fighter??? To not take the test and still seek to feast on fighters that suffer recent losses smells very fishy. Pac fans can try to evade the reality, but the truth is that Pacquiao is a big ? And he is creating the atmosphere of scrutiny. Hell, Mayweather called him out and likens him to Shane Mosley. When Floyd said that Shane's career achievements are questionable due to steroid use... Pac is under the same scrutiny and he should not be left off the hook. If great athletes in other sports had to go before Congress etc... Pac's ass should be made to prove he is all that he and his fans profess to be...
rusty_trombone
QUOTE (Nay_Sayer @ Jun 29 2010, 04:07 PM) *
Mayorga had already been drubbed to death by Trinidad. Same goes for Vargas. Campas was an OLE assed man. A 38 year old 156lb Bernard Hopkins was in no way shape or form impressed by de la Hoya's alleged "power".

Hopkins has a pretty damn good chin, but it's not like de la hoya couldn't punch at that weight, he was obviously able to finish guys off.
Run and Gun Game Calls
QUOTE (neophyte7 @ Jun 29 2010, 08:37 PM) *
If the man was clean it seems to me that with the state of American Sports and the steroid scandals in baseball. boxing, (A-rod, Dave Ortiz, Manny Ramirez to name a few, basketball (Lewis of Orlando Magic) etc... Balco etc... It would seem logical to dispel the rumors. If he is clean it only enhances his legacy as a great fighter??? To not take the test and still seek to feast on fighters that suffer recent losses smells very fishy. Pac fans can try to evade the reality, but the truth is that Pacquiao is a big ? And he is creating the atmosphere of scrutiny. Hell, Mayweather called him out and likens him to Shane Mosley. When Floyd said that Shane's career achievements are questionable due to steroid use... Pac is under the same scrutiny and he should not be left off the hook. If great athletes in other sports had to go before Congress etc... Pac's ass should be made to prove he is all that he and his fans profess to be...



Please explain to me how Pacquios career is under the same scrutiny as Mosleys Just because Floyd says so.

Mosley was linked To Balco, Has Manny been linking to anything? No

Mosley admitted steroid use in his testimony, and it was leaked for all to see. has Manny of any former trainers of his said he was on anything? NO

Look how ripped Floyd is, and how hard he was Tagging Mosley. Floyd Moved way up in weight, who says he didnt cheat to move up? A steroid test now isnt going to prove that one way or another..

manny shouldnt be let off the hook? There is no hook because there not only is no proof, there is no suspicious link. Nothing out there says manny is a cheater other than floyd

next time think before speaking out of your ass. Mosley and Pacquio are very far apart in the amout of scrutiny their careers are looked at.

Snoop
I'm not that concerned of the jump in weight classes as opposed to the time between his jump in weight classes and how he did it so fast. (Waiting for Hype to break it down...)
gbh32001
Pac did not gain weight that much as facts already been out since his featherweight time. But if you ask if he is on something, the best 2 people that can answer your question is Ariza and Roach. If Pac is on something I really believe that is a new breed of enhancer like what Armstrong is using. But I can't deny that this man, little man from poor country fullfil his destiny and secure his legendary status that nobody in the boxing greats look down on him. When he finish his career, he will sit at thesame level of GOAT. If he will not get caught from something.
JD
QUOTE (rusty_trombone @ Jun 29 2010, 05:52 PM) *
Hopkins has a pretty damn good chin, but it's not like de la hoya couldn't punch at that weight, he was obviously able to finish guys off.


I do not recall Hopkins being impressed with many people's power.

For what it's worth, Mayorga felt that Oscar hit him harder than Tito ever did.
TRU
From what I understand, Fernando Vargas was fighting at 132 pound in the amateurs and 3 years later was fighting as a full-fledged junior middleweight.

The weight class jump isn't as insane as people make it seem.

Most of the "nutrionists" in boxing are a joke.
rusty_trombone
QUOTE (TRU @ Jun 29 2010, 07:32 PM) *
From what I understand, Fernando Vargas was fighting at 132 pound in the amateurs and 3 years later was fighting as a full-fledged junior middleweight.

The weight class jump isn't as insane as people make it seem.

Most of the "nutrionists" in boxing are a joke.

I do think that boxing "nutritionists" are a bit of a croc, but to de fair, vargas was juicing.
RiverSide
I cant think Manny is or isnt juicing... I dont know Manny personally.

BUT... lets look at what most if not all fighters lose when they go up in weight but that Pac has not lost.

- punching power.

- hand speed.

- mobility/ foot speed / footwork.

- punch output.


Im just saying... I dont blame some people for suspecting stuff. But Manny is in his prime right now.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (RiverSide @ Jun 29 2010, 08:41 PM) *
I cant think Manny is or isnt juicing... I dont know Manny personally.

BUT... lets look at what most if not all fighters lose when they go up in weight but that Pac has not lost.

- punching power.

- hand speed.

- mobility/ foot speed / footwork.

- punch output.


Im just saying... I dont blame some people for suspecting stuff. But Manny is in his prime right now.


hopkins went up 15 pounds in one fight and never lost any of the above.

I would strike punching power off the list. Manny hit De la hoya and Cotto with everything bar the kitchen sink and couldn't clean KO either of those guys. The only reason he flattened Hatton was he got him a picture perfect punch right on the chin.

Come to think of it he couldn't really put away Morales, Barrera or JMM at the lower weights, he just had to hit them with a fuckload of punches.
D-MARV
It's not out of the realm of possibilities that Manny Pacquiao is juicing but that's not to say that he is indeed a roid abuser. I think Pacquiao has benefited from brilliant match-making and knowing "when" to fight certain guys. JD brings up a valid point in Pacquiao not really adding weight. He has just had the luxury of not having to suck down before fights. As far as his punching power goes, I really don't think much has changed in that area. Oscar pretty much ate the 1 million punches that landed against him and so did Clottey. Cotto was rocked bad at 140 so it wasn't a complete shock that Manny buzzed him pretty bad. I think that blinding hand speed is magnified by the fact that he is fighting guys at a higher weight THUS leading to Manny's punches look a bit faster than it would against an Eric Morales or Juan Manuel Marquez.

I think what makes this whole damn situation shady is how Manny Pacquiao responded when Floyd demanded the drug testing. Instead of saying "Go Fuck Yourself" Pacquiao replied with "I'm afraid of needles". Then he got ultra defensive by attempting to sue Floyd for millions of dollars. I personally think Floyd is doing the right thing in this instance. Look at all the fighters in the past that have tested positive for Steroids... you have some pretty big names on that list. Then you have Shane Mosley who admitted to using PEDs without ever testing positive. The blood is no big deal in my opinion. This does not effect Manny's financial situation nor does it give floyd any type of advantage as he will be participating in the drug testing as well. making catchweight fights that involve sucking other fighters down in weight is far more worst than blood testing.

To answer the original question, I would have to lean towards Yes!. My belief is that Manny has indeed experimented with some type of PEDs. I base this opinion solely on how he responded to the allegations. He came up with several bullshit excuses as to why he would not be willing to take the drug test. I think it would be in Manny's best interest to take the tests and fight on. If he refuses to take the test then many people would be left wondering if Manny was truly a "clean" champion.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (rusty_trombone @ Jun 30 2010, 12:43 AM) *
I do think that boxing "nutritionists" are a bit of a croc, but to de fair, vargas was juicing.


Yup look at what going up in weight did for him

Snoop
QUOTE (TRU @ Jun 29 2010, 11:32 PM) *
From what I understand, Fernando Vargas was fighting at 132 pound in the amateurs and 3 years later was fighting as a full-fledged junior middleweight.

The weight class jump isn't as insane as people make it seem.

Most of the "nutrionists" in boxing are a joke.

Vargas isn't the best example of boxers excelling in the sport "cleanly".
Fitz
QUOTE (TRU @ Jun 30 2010, 09:32 AM) *
From what I understand, Fernando Vargas was fighting at 132 pound in the amateurs and 3 years later was fighting as a full-fledged junior middleweight.


What a dumb comparison.

Considering Vargas was born in 1977, and started his pro career in 1997, that would mean he was 20 years old. So you are talking about Vargas fighting at 132 as a teenager. Most of the times I have observed humans, they are still growing as a teenager. It's not unheard of for a human to grow when they are a teenager. It's probably why that they are called 'teenagers' and not 'adults'.

That said, to me I will not say Pacquiao is a cheat. Innocent until proven guilty, though that's not to say I am not suspicious. Pacquiao was growing into these weights as an already an adult. His head to me has grown in that time, he is knocking bigger guys out easier than he was knocking out featherweights. Him being reluctant to take tests for $40million (was it?), and it wasn't even the fact that he refused it, it was the fact that his reasoning on why he didn't want to do it changed about three times, and then him playing on the 'innocent' and naive charade when he said. "I don't even know what steroids are", which nobody fucking believes that.

I didn't come to my suspicions just because he seems to good, it was a combination of things, and his (Roach's) actions on it. Also, we know that Toney got busted twice while having Roach in his corner. Like I said, I am not saying he is a cheat, but I definitely have my suspicions.
AussieLad
If pac fights floyd and loses, is it because he isnt on PED's or because floyd is too good?

Will a loss add legitimacy to the claims?
RiverSide
QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ Jun 29 2010, 10:23 PM) *
hopkins went up 15 pounds in one fight and never lost any of the above.

I would strike punching power off the list. Manny hit De la hoya and Cotto with everything bar the kitchen sink and couldn't clean KO either of those guys. The only reason he flattened Hatton was he got him a picture perfect punch right on the chin.

Come to think of it he couldn't really put away Morales, Barrera or JMM at the lower weights, he just had to hit them with a fuckload of punches.



I disagree.

Hops didnt look as fast to me at 175. He hasnt shown the same power at that weight either.

Hops punch output had been going down over the years anyway. Same with his footwork.

Either way Im sure how you can say Hops retained all those things when he went up. He was decreasing in ALL those things before he even went up.

Hoya has a HoF beard. Lets be clear about that.

Pac took Cotto down with the last shot of 4-5 punch combo, not exactly the hardest shot though it did land clean. I dont know of other welters
who could do that. Either Cotto cant take a punch anymore or Pac has retained the same power.
Maxy
It really is a sickener that we have to have this debate about Manny in the first place though. Yeah, the easy thing would have been to take the tests but the only way around it is to make it compulsory for EVERY fighter ranked in the top 10 and above.

Why should he bow down just cos Floyd says so?
RiverSide
QUOTE (Maxy @ Jun 30 2010, 08:34 AM) *
It really is a sickener that we have to have this debate about Manny in the first place though. Yeah, the easy thing would have been to take the tests but the only way around it is to make it compulsory for EVERY fighter ranked in the top 10 and above.

Why should he bow down just cos Floyd says so?



Well look first of all there are no official rankings in boxing so that idea would not work.

Second testing is different state by state so depending on where they fight the tests might go differently.

That is why with current system in place (or lack of one rather), additional testing can only be done on a fight by fight basis.

Pac has the right to refuse. My thing is that I do not believe the request is unreasonable. Pac has had requests of his own as well
and he wasnt shy about using his bargaining power to force them through. Its a game everyone plays.
Fitz
QUOTE (RiverSide @ Jun 30 2010, 10:17 PM) *
Hops punch output had been going down over the years anyway. Same with his footwork.

Either way Im sure how you can say Hops retained all those things when he went up. He was decreasing in ALL those things before he even went up.


Nope. He didn't decrease in workrate, he did exactly the opposite. He increased, and to me it was obvious seeing him more from 160 to 175. He looked rejuvenated, though his fights since Pavlik seems to have gone on the downward slide. But still, the comment was inacurated about his work rate decreasing.

Hopkins last few fights at 160
Hopkins-Eastman: Hopkins threw 346 punches
Hopkins-Taylor I: Hopkins threw 326 punches
Hopkins-Taylor II: Hopkins threw 371 punches

Hopkins moves up to 175
Hopkins-Tarver: Hopkins threw 417 punches
Hopkins-Wright: Hopkins threw 640 punches
Hopkins-Calazghe: Hopkins threw 468 punches
Hopkins-Pavlik: Hopkins threw 530 punches
Nay_Sayer
QUOTE (rusty_trombone @ Jun 29 2010, 04:52 PM) *
Hopkins has a pretty damn good chin, but it's not like de la hoya couldn't punch at that weight, he was obviously able to finish guys off.

Oscar wasn't KO'ing guys early @ 154 lbs like he was @ 135-140. There are just no comparisons to be made. Oscar isn't a puncher @ 154lbs.

And Hopkins didn't show Oscar nowhere near the same amout of repsect he showed Trinidad...
Nay_Sayer
QUOTE (JD @ Jun 29 2010, 06:11 PM) *
I do not recall Hopkins being impressed with many people's power.

He was certainly leery of Trinidad.


QUOTE
For what it's worth, Mayorga felt that Oscar hit him harder than Tito ever did.

And who here really believes that?

I don't...
King Eugene
QUOTE (Fitz @ Jun 30 2010, 09:26 AM) *
Nope. He didn't decrease in workrate, he did exactly the opposite. He increased, and to me it was obvious seeing him more from 160 to 175. He looked rejuvenated, though his fights since Pavlik seems to have gone on the downward slide. But still, the comment was inacurated about his work rate decreasing.

Hopkins last few fights at 160
Hopkins-Eastman: Hopkins threw 346 punches
Hopkins-Taylor I: Hopkins threw 326 punches
Hopkins-Taylor II: Hopkins threw 371 punches

Hopkins moves up to 175
Hopkins-Tarver: Hopkins threw 417 punches
Hopkins-Wright: Hopkins threw 640 punches
Hopkins-Calazghe: Hopkins threw 468 punches
Hopkins-Pavlik: Hopkins threw 530 punches

When I was on the previous page I was about to ask you to post this but decided to wait til I got to the next page to see if you already did.

Man I think you got a folder or something saved on your PC with random "prove you wrong" boxing facts. laugh.gif
JD
QUOTE (Nay_Sayer @ Jun 30 2010, 10:34 AM) *
He was certainly leery of Trinidad.



And who here really believes that?

I don't...



There is a difference between being leery and being impressed. Whether or not Hopkins was leery going in doesn't really speak to him being impressed with Trinidad's power. Based upon what I saw that night, Hopkins was in no way, shape or form impressed with Trinidad's power. But so what...as I said, Hopkins has not been impressed with many people's power.

As for really believing Mayorga...I don't see why I wouldn't believe that he was hit harder by Oscar than Tito. De La Hoya had a terrific lefthook, and he landed it on Mayorga perfectly. Like I said, no one called the guy Julian Jackson...but his power was fine, even at 154.
rusty_trombone
QUOTE (Nay_Sayer @ Jun 30 2010, 10:22 AM) *
Oscar wasn't KO'ing guys early @ 154 lbs like he was @ 135-140. There are just no comparisons to be made. Oscar isn't a puncher @ 154lbs.

And Hopkins didn't show Oscar nowhere near the same amout of repsect he showed Trinidad...

no he wasn't a puncher, but he did have legit power for the weight class.
Hops
And it's virtually impossible for a man of his age to still be able to do the things a p4per can do.
Keith
QUOTE (rusty_trombone @ Jun 30 2010, 10:56 AM) *
no he wasn't a puncher, but he did have legit power for the weight class.


Ya, agree 100%... he wasnt a puncher at 154 but he hit hard enough to get a fighters respect. He could put his punches together to stop guys like Vargas and Mayorga from bum rushing his ass and turning it into a street fight. That's all you really need.
thehype
QUOTE (TRU @ Jun 29 2010, 01:29 PM) *
Does Pacquiao's rise from 122 pounds to 147 make you think he took something to get there?


No....but the fact that he was able to move from 130 (March 15, 2008 vs. Juan Manuel Marquez) to 147 (December 6, 2008 vs. De La Hoya) in a 9-month timeframe and seemingly become more active, more powerful and able to take punches from bigger opponents better, without looking softer (like Marquez did when he moved from 135 to 147 in a 7-month timeframe) and without getting slower or less powerful, makes me somewhat skeptical.

laugh.gif
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