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PR316
In the mythical matchups section, I believe Johnny Blaze made this point, citing that the proper technique on how to really sit on your punches is a lost art. But I've also heard from others in some circles that the size of the gloves plays a part now.

I mean nowadays 154 pounders wear 10 oz gloves as opposed to the 8 oz gloves they used to wear. I mean its known that these days the gloves are more padded than they were back in the 70s as well.

But then again, we do have some guys that are legitimage KO punchers, just not as many as before. These days, the guys we can say are legit KO punchers are Darchinian, Juanma Lopez, Gamboa, Angulo, and a few others. But not nearly as prevalent as before. Not too long ago, we had the likes of Trinidad, Corrales, Jose Luis Lopez, Manny Pacquiao at 126 was devastating, Tszyu, Roy Jones at 168, etc.


Wondering what most of y'all feel out there. Because I do feel that there aren't that many KO artists anymore. I say its a combination of both the gloves being more padded and that the true way of sittting on your punches is becoming a lost art.

What do you fellas say?
Fitz
Interesting point. Not sure what it is, but I wouldn't think it's all about punching technique. I think there will be some cases where they don't use technique correctly. But I don't think it's the prime reason. For me fighters are generally born with power or not. Technique from them on will compliment you, but it isn't the be all, end all. I don't think trainers are that incompetent where they can't teach to throw a punch correctly.
I think your take on glove size is more plausible.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE (PR316 @ Jul 25 2010, 06:49 PM) *
In the mythical matchups section, I believe Johnny Blaze made this point, citing that the proper technique on how to really sit on your punches is a lost art. But I've also heard from others in some circles that the size of the gloves plays a part now.

I mean nowadays 154 pounders wear 10 oz gloves as opposed to the 8 oz gloves they used to wear. I mean its known that these days the gloves are more padded than they were back in the 70s as well.

But then again, we do have some guys that are legitimage KO punchers, just not as many as before. These days, the guys we can say are legit KO punchers are Darchinian, Juanma Lopez, Gamboa, Angulo, and a few others. But not nearly as prevalent as before. Not too long ago, we had the likes of Trinidad, Corrales, Jose Luis Lopez, Manny Pacquiao at 126 was devastating, Tszyu, Roy Jones at 168, etc.


Wondering what most of y'all feel out there. Because I do feel that there aren't that many KO artists anymore. I say its a combination of both the gloves being more padded and that the true way of sittting on your punches is becoming a lost art.

What do you fellas say?

PR,me and you might have to make our own thread since we obviously have very similiar interests in boxing..

Also,you're right that I did make the point about how guys don't know how to sit on their punches these days through not using the proper technique to do so and have been ok with throwing arm punches like they never left the amateurs..Glove size has nothing to do with this..Jack Dempsey broke a 300 lb sparring partner's jaw with one punc in 16 oz. gloves..We've seen footage of Joe Louis putting guys down with one punch in sparring as well(mostly left hooks or rights)..2 ozs. do not make a puncher lose his punch unless he is arm punching..

Today,we call some fighters punchers when they really are only arm punching but have heavy hands..If they learned to use their whole body and not 3/4 of it or whatever,we'd find out there are a lot more guys with one punch power..Yet,they are ok with what they have right now or don't know any better..When you first box,you only see glimpses of what you have inside you..I never thought I'd be fast when I first started boxing but I found ways to be looser and more relaxed and now I have welterweights telling me they have problems seeing my punches(I'm a heavyweight,200 lbs)..Technique works wonders as well..By throwing a straighter punch,it becomes faster naturally and is a lot harder to see..

Punching is a lost art and if anyone on here says it's the gloves,you're wrong without a doubt in my mind..If Arcel trained Malignaggi,Arcel would make Malignaggi a good puncher..No one is that weak of a puncher to only have 5 KOs in around 30 fights unless they are strictly arm punching and using absolutely none of their weight..He fights like an amateur would..Think speed and bring the punch back as quickly as possibly without following through..Who follows through with their punches today??

You may say Louis and Dempsey are big punchers to begin with but if they were arm punching,they would not be 1 punch KO guys..Also,I have worn an 8 and 10 oz. glove and there is barely a difference..If you can't KO a guy in 10s,you can't with 8s..
JonnyBlaze
OK,wanna make this a little more clear about the gloves..Do any of you think that a guy who has natural power and punches using all of his weight is going to be effected by 2 ozs in a glove??If he is a 1 punch KO guy in 8 ozs,somehow he won't have that 1 punch power when putting on a glove that is 2 ozs more??Guys who have 1 punch KO power are also probably dropping guys in the gym with 16 ozs with 1 punch..
Fitz
QUOTE (JonnyBlaze @ Jul 26 2010, 10:38 AM) *
Jack Dempsey broke a 300 lb sparring partner's jaw with one punc


Maybe the guy had had a skull like me and you? laugh.gif

Gloves were different back then, I'm sure 16oz then are different to 16oz now. I agree some fighters don't use their power properly, as you gain power through your legs and core. Though I'm not a pure expert, but I think you are making it out like it's much more difficult to learn to punch correctly. I don't think learning to pivot, and use your hips to gain power is hard at all. The hardest part of it all is making it a habit if you were previously throwing arm punches (which just about everyone did when beginning). It's more breaking the habit I find hard, though I don't actually find learning the technique difficult.
The other factor is, fighters don't seem to be fighting at their natural weights either these days which could play a factor.

But like some names you mentioned before PR, I think we still have some of our one punch KO artists. Darchinyan, Lopez, Pavlik, Abraham, R. Marquez, David Haye, Maidana, Danny Green, Cintron, Pacquiao (more in the lower classes), Wlad (if he actually went for it a bit more) and if Valero was still a live, he would be there too.
Some of the names I mentioned may be borderline, but I think they have the stopping power in their hands. I think we just don't have the superstars like we did in the past like Tyson, Trinidad, Hearns and Foreman. We don't just have many pure boxing stars like we did with Tyson. I think we have declined a bit, but I think we still have some there, some of them are just not recognised because they are in lower weight classes, or just not great fighters.


Spyder
Pacman is BY FAR the premiere KO artist. People tune in to see him knock someone's block off. I like the list that Fitz put up...with the exception of Green lol...anytime I watch those guys, I expect to see their opponent unconscious.

I think we might be looking at it a little differently than what is actual reality though. Guys fighting today, grew up watching Roy, Hopkins, Mayweather, De la Hoya...fighters that were more boxers than punchers. Just like any other sport, the next generation always tries to emulate the previous one. Like how everyone in the NBA grew up trying to be Michael Jordan...I just think that THIS generation learned to box by trying to be fast, and not get hit.

Maybe after the Pacman reign has ushered in its own group of Manny Pacquiao wanna-be's...we'll get a wave of KO artists, and can start talking about "What happened to the boxer?" laugh.gif
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE (Fitz @ Jul 25 2010, 08:21 PM) *
Maybe the guy had had a skull like me and you? laugh.gif

Gloves were different back then, I'm sure 16oz then are different to 16oz now. I agree some fighters don't use their power properly, as you gain power through your legs and core. Though I'm not a pure expert, but I think you are making it out like it's much more difficult to learn to punch correctly. I don't think learning to pivot, and use your hips to gain power is hard at all. The hardest part of it all is making it a habit if you were previously throwing arm punches (which just about everyone did when beginning). It's more breaking the habit I find hard, though I don't actually find learning the technique difficult.
The other factor is, fighters don't seem to be fighting at their natural weights either these days which could play a factor.

But like some names you mentioned before PR, I think we still have some of our one punch KO artists. Darchinyan, Lopez, Pavlik, Abraham, R. Marquez, David Haye, Maidana, Danny Green, Cintron, Pacquiao (more in the lower classes), Wlad (if he actually went for it a bit more) and if Valero was still a live, he would be there too.
Some of the names I mentioned may be borderline, but I think they have the stopping power in their hands. I think we just don't have the superstars like we did in the past like Tyson, Trinidad, Hearns and Foreman. We don't just have many pure boxing stars like we did with Tyson. I think we have declined a bit, but I think we still have some there, some of them are just not recognised because they are in lower weight classes, or just not great fighters.

You don't think learning to punch using all your body properly isn't that hard??Well that's cause you haven't tried to do it or have done it..I can tell you that it is A LOT harder than you know..It's hard as hell..Learning to pivot isn't hard but learning to pivot properly is..I was pivoting my first week ever in boxing but i was pivoting away from my punch like I've seen everyone else do..You pivot toward your opponent and it shifts the weight to your front leg and actually makes your right hand about 3 inches longer..It also keeps you balanced if you miss a punch because your foot locks into place and makes it difficult to lean,unless you are punching up or down at a person..I wouldn't of believed any of this to be possible(like your punching becoming 3 inches longer),unless I had done it,which I have..It's still not automatic either so I'm not an expert myself,but I can do it..

You're also right about fighters not fighting at their natural weights..I don't think this is much of a factor in punching power though since if you weigh more,you have that much more weight to use but it may effect your speed which is where a lot of a person power comes from..Speed+weight=power..There are other factors but thats as basic as it can get..People can be heavy handed and things like that as well that will effect it..

Wlad.,Abraham, and Pac-man all have good power..With Pac-man,it is a combo between the guy not seeing the punches and Pac-man's power..We definitely are missing our Hearns,Foreman,Archie,Joe Louis,and guys like them..The real problem may be the trainers though..Who is the Ray Arcel or Jack Blackburn of our time??We have Roach,Atlas now,and Steward right now that are still in my opinion students of the game but are the best of what we have..Arcel and Blackburn were masters and saw strengths and weaknesses that guy don't point out today..They studied the details of boxing which is what made perfection in their fighters..Look at Arcel's and Blackburn's fighters and you don't see that kinda stuff today..Joe Walcott,Ezzard Charles,Joe Louis,Tony Zale,Barney Ross,Larry Holmes,Ray Robinson(with Blackburn),Duran,Benny Leonard,and the list can keep going on..Why don't we have those kinda guys today??Because we don't have the guys behind the fighters..I'd like for someone to tell me it was a coincidence that Arcel had 20 world champs..Fuckin 20!!Arcel----"I don't consider myself a trainer,I consider myself a teacher."--Sickness!!
JonnyBlaze
Awesome read..You guys gotta read this..All about Arcel..Lots of quotes..

The Master---Ray Arcel
Fitz
QUOTE (Spyder @ Jul 26 2010, 12:43 PM) *
I think we might be looking at it a little differently than what is actual reality though. Guys fighting today, grew up watching Roy, Hopkins, Mayweather, De la Hoya...fighters that were more boxers than punchers. Just like any other sport, the next generation always tries to emulate the previous one. Like how everyone in the NBA grew up trying to be Michael Jordan...I just think that THIS generation learned to box by trying to be fast, and not get hit.


Spot on. I was going to mention something about this before, but you worded it better. That to me has a lot to do with it as well.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE (Spyder @ Jul 25 2010, 09:43 PM) *
Pacman is BY FAR the premiere KO artist. People tune in to see him knock someone's block off. I like the list that Fitz put up...with the exception of Green lol...anytime I watch those guys, I expect to see their opponent unconscious.

I think we might be looking at it a little differently than what is actual reality though. Guys fighting today, grew up watching Roy, Hopkins, Mayweather, De la Hoya...fighters that were more boxers than punchers. Just like any other sport, the next generation always tries to emulate the previous one. Like how everyone in the NBA grew up trying to be Michael Jordan...I just think that THIS generation learned to box by trying to be fast, and not get hit.

Maybe after the Pacman reign has ushered in its own group of Manny Pacquiao wanna-be's...we'll get a wave of KO artists, and can start talking about "What happened to the boxer?" laugh.gif

I think you're definitely right and a reason why is all the new trainers who were learning from the Roy,Hopkins,DLH,Mayweather era are going to try to push that stuff on fighters..It's basically evolution but in a boxing ring..Guys coming up in the US want to be flashy and showboat like Roy did..European guys will look like the Klitchkos or someone like someone like Kessler..It's all about the trainers and who the boxer looks up to from boxing..One guy at my gym thinks hes the next Floyd and another thinks he's the next Tyson..Yet,I still believe it comes back to the trainer..They show you how they want you to punch and how they want you to stand to be effective..
gravytrain
I think it's what's already been mentioned: fighters get used to amateur fighting and are only using 70% of their power on big shots as pros and trainers aren't trying to improve on it.
PR316
QUOTE (JonnyBlaze @ Jul 25 2010, 10:47 PM) *
You don't think learning to punch using all your body properly isn't that hard??Well that's cause you haven't tried to do it or have done it..I can tell you that it is A LOT harder than you know..It's hard as hell..Learning to pivot isn't hard but learning to pivot properly is..I was pivoting my first week ever in boxing but i was pivoting away from my punch like I've seen everyone else do..You pivot toward your opponent and it shifts the weight to your front leg and actually makes your right hand about 3 inches longer..It also keeps you balanced if you miss a punch because your foot locks into place and makes it difficult to lean,unless you are punching up or down at a person..I wouldn't of believed any of this to be possible(like your punching becoming 3 inches longer),unless I had done it,which I have..It's still not automatic either so I'm not an expert myself,but I can do it..

You're also right about fighters not fighting at their natural weights..I don't think this is much of a factor in punching power though since if you weigh more,you have that much more weight to use but it may effect your speed which is where a lot of a person power comes from..Speed+weight=power..There are other factors but thats as basic as it can get..People can be heavy handed and things like that as well that will effect it..

Wlad.,Abraham, and Pac-man all have good power..With Pac-man,it is a combo between the guy not seeing the punches and Pac-man's power..We definitely are missing our Hearns,Foreman,Archie,Joe Louis,and guys like them..The real problem may be the trainers though..Who is the Ray Arcel or Jack Blackburn of our time??We have Roach,Atlas now,and Steward right now that are still in my opinion students of the game but are the best of what we have..Arcel and Blackburn were masters and saw strengths and weaknesses that guy don't point out today..They studied the details of boxing which is what made perfection in their fighters..Look at Arcel's and Blackburn's fighters and you don't see that kinda stuff today..Joe Walcott,Ezzard Charles,Joe Louis,Tony Zale,Barney Ross,Larry Holmes,Ray Robinson(with Blackburn),Duran,Benny Leonard,and the list can keep going on..Why don't we have those kinda guys today??Because we don't have the guys behind the fighters..I'd like for someone to tell me it was a coincidence that Arcel had 20 world champs..Fuckin 20!!Arcel----"I don't consider myself a trainer,I consider myself a teacher."--Sickness!!


Its EXTREMELY HARD... I wasn't pivoting correctly at all my first couple of weeks in the gym. In fact I felt awkward, was losing my balance and found myself just watching everyone so that I could get it down. Repetition was the key. Nowadays I feel much more light on my feet and more relaxed, able to punch and not expend too much energy while keeping balance and the hand speed comes naturally when you learn to shorten and straighten your punches.

QUOTE (JonnyBlaze @ Jul 25 2010, 10:48 PM) *
Awesome read..You guys gotta read this..All about Arcel..Lots of quotes..

The Master---Ray Arcel


We lost a great man in Ray Arcel. One could only imagine the wonders he would be able to do for some of these guys out there. He bread fighters that were machines in that ring seemingly. Roberto Duran is a prime example.
HaydelHammer
punchers have fallen hard over the past few years when paired against pure boxers.

Punchers are entertaining yes, and if brought up right can cash out pretty quickly but as soon as they go up against "the boxer" it usually they will get labeled as "exposed" after the humbling beating they took at the hands of the crafty slick boxer. Then it's usually down hill imo for the puncher unless they freak show him again for $$$ b/c he damn sure aint beating the guy that mauled him.

Hamed fell hard man.

pop quiz....who (puncher) feel harder than Hamed after his beating?

JonnyBlaze
QUOTE (PR316 @ Jul 26 2010, 10:06 AM) *
Its EXTREMELY HARD... I wasn't pivoting correctly at all my first couple of weeks in the gym. In fact I felt awkward, was losing my balance and found myself just watching everyone so that I could get it down. Repetition was the key. Nowadays I feel much more light on my feet and more relaxed, able to punch and not expend too much energy while keeping balance and the hand speed comes naturally when you learn to shorten and straighten your punches.

We lost a great man in Ray Arcel. One could only imagine the wonders he would be able to do for some of these guys out there. He bread fighters that were machines in that ring seemingly. Roberto Duran is a prime example.

This is why I love talking about boxing with you and always post in your threads that you make..I feel like we're normally on the same page and since And The New left,theres one less person to talk about old school guys with..I can tell you are a bigger fan of old school guys than guys today,like me..I still love boxing today but there is too much lost art..Guys who say that if fighters fought how they did back then that it wouldn't work are ridiculous..Details are not so much a focus today as it was..How many guys today can we say have perfected the art of boxing??NONE..If anyone knows anyone,please tell..

Glad you liked the article..Arcel was the best along with Blackburn in my opinion..As far as accomplishments,Arcel blows everyone out the water..
PR316
^^^I think Bernard Hopkins is the closest that comes to perfecting everything. I want to say that either Freddy Roach or Naazim Richardson said that.

Maybe he's not what we could call a KO puncher, but his punches are sharp, crisp, and have alot of bodyweight behind them. As he got older of course he became more safety first. But in his younger days, he could do it all.

But most of the guys seem to go on their athletic ability and pick up what they can because of it. Case in point with guys like Yuriorkis Gamboa. Fast, powerful, athletic, and flashy. But not too much in terms of true skill IMO. If he faces either a Lopez, Caballero, or Chris John, I think his flaws will be exposed. But thats another issue for another time.

One of the most difficult things to learn is putting the feet in harmony with whatever punch your going to throw. It takes time to find it. You gotta just work on it till its an exhaustion really. Its as mentally draining as it is physical.

I loved watching Roberto Duran. He didn't necessarily dance around, but he was like a cat in the way he was able to move inside, and step to either the left or the right and deliver brutal bodyshots. And the fluidity in which he could punch to either the head and body, back up to the head and back down to the body and you can just tell by watching the film that EVERY PUNCH hurts the opponent. It makes me wince just watching it.

Just another product of Ray Arcel. He really was a teacher.



JonnyBlaze
QUOTE (HaydelHammer @ Jul 26 2010, 12:41 PM) *
punchers have fallen hard over the past few years when paired against pure boxers.

Punchers are entertaining yes, and if brought up right can cash out pretty quickly but as soon as they go up against "the boxer" it usually they will get labeled as "exposed" after the humbling beating they took at the hands of the crafty slick boxer. Then it's usually down hill imo for the puncher unless they freak show him again for $$$ b/c he damn sure aint beating the guy that mauled him.

Hamed fell hard man.

pop quiz....who (puncher) feel harder than Hamed after his beating?

Who said punchers can't be pure boxers??Joe Louis and Ray Robinson were both pure boxers and 2 of the hardest punchers in history..They would use their jab or feints to setup the KO punch..So many people today think that a boxer is a guy who moves and doesn't possess a punch,lets say someone like Malignaggi..Does anyone else feel this way too??The definition of a boxer,a puncher,and so on are so much different now..

Do you mean punchers as in guys who just look for that one punch since they felt they don't have to rely on boxing skills to get the job done??

Haydel---this is not directed at you but it is something I've been thinking about for awhile..The last question is for you however..
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE (PR316 @ Jul 26 2010, 07:33 PM) *
^^^I think Bernard Hopkins is the closest that comes to perfecting everything. I want to say that either Freddy Roach or Naazim Richardson said that.

Maybe he's not what we could call a KO puncher, but his punches are sharp, crisp, and have alot of bodyweight behind them. As he got older of course he became more safety first. But in his younger days, he could do it all.

But most of the guys seem to go on their athletic ability and pick up what they can because of it. Case in point with guys like Yuriorkis Gamboa. Fast, powerful, athletic, and flashy. But not too much in terms of true skill IMO. If he faces either a Lopez, Caballero, or Chris John, I think his flaws will be exposed. But thats another issue for another time.

One of the most difficult things to learn is putting the feet in harmony with whatever punch your going to throw. It takes time to find it. You gotta just work on it till its an exhaustion really. Its as mentally draining as it is physical.

I loved watching Roberto Duran. He didn't necessarily dance around, but he was like a cat in the way he was able to move inside, and step to either the left or the right and deliver brutal bodyshots. And the fluidity in which he could punch to either the head and body, back up to the head and back down to the body and you can just tell by watching the film that EVERY PUNCH hurts the opponent. It makes me wince just watching it.

Just another product of Ray Arcel. He really was a teacher.

Very good post..I definitely agree with your opinion on Gamboa..I think Lopez or Chris John are the perfect guys to expose him..More John than Lopez in my opinion..

Having your feet flow with your punch is so hard to do..I've yet to master it..It's all about timing and focus to get it..Most people want to bring their body before their foot which makes the punch a arm punch(I've had a bad habit of this)..When it all comes as one,it's a full body punch..Very very hard to do..Also I like how you brought up that it is as mentally draining as physically..It is something we talk about as a team in the gym..Guys today lack mental energy and just do instead of think..I think its a lot worse to be mentally drained than physically..We've seen James Toney last a 12 round fight while completely outta gas only because he has that mental energy to allow him to keep going and reacting..

Duran had great footwork because of Arcel..He would slide on the ball of his foot which is what made it seem like he was outside than on the inside in a split second..If he stepped,his opponent would be able to adjust since he'd see it coming(kinda like when a guy picks up his elbow or moves his shoulder before he jabs)..

Another lost art is the shoeshine..Guys today think you just move your arms as fast as you can and purely arm punch..Watch Ray Robinson shoeshine and you'll see mustard on every punch..Every punch in Robinson's shoeshine would hurt because he didn't do the wimpy shit we sometimes see today..I was taught the bitch way to shoeshine and I've been shown how to really shoeshine(I haven't been able to make it apart of my arsenal yet)..Ray would shoeshine a lot more than I had thought when I first started boxing..It's crazy the details I can see in fights now..
KYLE THEEE SPINKS FAN
IMO it's extremely hard to throw that perfect shot with the correct technique when you're in there with another fighter trying to take your head off. A fighter can practice all they want on a bag or in the mirror, but it's a whole different story once in that ring. Last week I sparred with a guy who was throwing nice straight shots on the bag, but couldn't do it in the ring. He cocked the right hand badly every time, and after the first 30 seconds of the first round I slipped every one. I think it would take a lot of sparring and amateur matches to get relaxed enough in that ring to properly sit down on those shots. The amateur scoring system doesn't help either. There's such an emphasis on landing any shot, that technique kind of goes out the window.

The gloves shouldn't matter that much either. I've had 10 oz. gloves on, and they aren't exactley pillows. They're pretty small gloves in the amateurs, and there's even less padding with the pros. As people have already said, there's not too much of a difference between 8 and 10 oz. gloves. It's mainly about that technique.
Lil-lightsout
All these posters with all these boxing "skills" and yet not one video ever posted that I can remember?

As far as 1 punch KO artists... it would be nice to see another Jackson or Hearns come along real soon.
Fitz
I think punching technique lacks with a lot of fighters, I just feel too much is being drawn into that. Boxing is sport where people punch for a living, I just don't believe that over the years, someone has forgotten how to punch correctly and it was lost in all of those years.
Bad technique is a cause for some fighters, I just don't think it's the main problem that it has been made out to be. Fighters punch in their sport, and it's the only offence they have. Nothing else, I just don't believe that the way you punch has been lost that dramatically.
Also going off a bit, but sometimes stories I hear about things that happened before video was available just seem stretched sometimes. You know stories when you were young, grandparents always told you that they had to walk so far, on blistering hot days, all they had was $5 to them and they did this and that and blah blah blah. You don't dismiss the story, you just think it was exaggerated. Does anybody ever feel this way when reading some things?
PR316
^^^^I think its more of the little details that are lacking. There's alot that goes into punching properly to get the full power effect. Shortening/straightening the punch, positioning your feet correctly when you punch, putting your body weight into it, turning your punch at the right moment, not to mention placing the punch precisely on the chin, and delivering all that with speed.


We still have some guys that are good punchers for sure. The names have been mentioned already. I think what Lightsout said is true in that we don't see any Tommy Hearns or Julian Jackson anymore.

Maybe someone will come along.
pcraw
The reason you don't see as any one punch knockouts nowadays is because too many guy's fight outside of their natural weight to chase big money fights. I'm not knocking them for doing it, but that's the primary reason why. Pavlik, great puncher at 160, but then you have him fighting at 68 and even 75 and he's not carrying his power that high. We've seen the same thing happen to Trinidad, Mayorga, Darchinyan, Arce, Hopkins etc.

I think we have to separate sparring from an actual fight. In sparring you can sit on your punches, get leverage and turn them over properly, but when you're in an actual fight with an equally skilled fighter it's very tough to land the perfect shot as someone else said earlier in this post.

Also, power is something you are born with. No one could teach Chris Byrd how to be a puncher. The dude fought at heavyweight and George was shrugging his shots off at light heavyweight. He just doesn't have punching power, but you can't tell me after boxing his entire life he doesn't know how to throw a punch.
HaydelHammer
QUOTE (JonnyBlaze @ Jul 26 2010, 08:43 PM) *
Who said punchers can't be pure boxers??Joe Louis and Ray Robinson were both pure boxers and 2 of the hardest punchers in history..They would use their jab or feints to setup the KO punch..So many people today think that a boxer is a guy who moves and doesn't possess a punch,lets say someone like Malignaggi..Does anyone else feel this way too??The definition of a boxer,a puncher,and so on are so much different now..

Do you mean punchers as in guys who just look for that one punch since they felt they don't have to rely on boxing skills to get the job done??

Haydel---this is not directed at you but it is something I've been thinking about for awhile..The last question is for you however..


yes, I shouldn't have used the term puncher now that look at it. I mean the guys that look for that Juggernaut shot...that eraser to turn the tide in their favor...if they don't land it they are toast type.

Fitz
QUOTE (PR316 @ Jul 29 2010, 12:25 AM) *
^^^^I think its more of the little details that are lacking. There's alot that goes into punching properly to get the full power effect. Shortening/straightening the punch, positioning your feet correctly when you punch, putting your body weight into it, turning your punch at the right moment, not to mention placing the punch precisely on the chin, and delivering all that with speed.


We still have some guys that are good punchers for sure. The names have been mentioned already. I think what Lightsout said is true in that we don't see any Tommy Hearns or Julian Jackson anymore.

Maybe someone will come along.


I know that all those little things go into learning how to punch. I just don't think over all the years, the art of losing how to punch correctly has been lost and why fighters don't get as many knocksout properly.
I think it can be a combination of a lot of things, like a portion of it could be not punching correctly like you said, I think fighters not fighting at their natural weight and like Spyder said, this generation of fighters seem to be fighting a different style. I just don't put as much emphasis on people forgetting how to punch in boxing.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE (PR316 @ Jul 28 2010, 09:25 AM) *
^^^^I think its more of the little details that are lacking. There's alot that goes into punching properly to get the full power effect. Shortening/straightening the punch, positioning your feet correctly when you punch, putting your body weight into it, turning your punch at the right moment, not to mention placing the punch precisely on the chin, and delivering all that with speed.


We still have some guys that are good punchers for sure. The names have been mentioned already. I think what Lightsout said is true in that we don't see any Tommy Hearns or Julian Jackson anymore.

Maybe someone will come along.

Exactly!!Real good post again..It is the small details that are lacking..Most trainers and fighters today look at the big picture,not the small details..Why do ya think Donald Curry KO'd a dude with a left hook for moving his arm back while jabbing,then had the same exact thing done to him against McCallum..

Percy,everyone punches different..Byrd doesn't follow through with any of his punch at all really..Also,he doesn't pivot and get full leverage from his hips into the punches..Byrd doesn't use all of his body weight in his punches..He punched more like an amateur,to score points..Punching power is something you're born with but how many guys bring it out in themselves??Not many today because they don't know how to..If youre 200 lbs and use 140 lbs of your body weight into your punches(even if you have heavy hands),you won't have that 1 punch KO ability like you would if you used all your body weight..Boxing is the sweet science..It's the laws of physics that allow a guy(like Dempsey or Joe Louis) to KO a guy who may have the best chin in the world..Too much force makes it a done deal for anyone..Anyone can say Dempsey and Louis did what they did because that's what they were born with,but if Kearns or Blackburn were around,they'd tell you that Dempsey or Louis never hit like that before they learned how to use all they had..

Watch Louis' hips..He'd put everything he had into his punches and stay balanced if he missed and was able to still react to counters..His stance allowed him to do this since he was perfectly balanced..

PR316
QUOTE (Fitz @ Jul 28 2010, 05:21 PM) *
I know that all those little things go into learning how to punch. I just don't think over all the years, the art of losing how to punch correctly has been lost and why fighters don't get as many knocksout properly.
I think it can be a combination of a lot of things, like a portion of it could be not punching correctly like you said, I think fighters not fighting at their natural weight and like Spyder said, this generation of fighters seem to be fighting a different style. I just don't put as much emphasis on people forgetting how to punch in boxing.


I hear ya. Too many weight classes plays a role in guys not fighting at their correct weights for sure. But there is quite a fair share of guys that because of their athletic ability can fight but they don't do much of anything necessarily technically correct. Gamboa was one example I listed. And we all know that fighters like Calzaghe and Malignaggi had few KOs because of the way they punched(Or slapped). No commitment at all, and I think thats what Johnny Blaze is trying to say, in that we have alot of guys who just arm punch and don't put bodyweight behind their blows(A fundamental essential for getting max power on your blows).

QUOTE (JonnyBlaze @ Jul 28 2010, 06:14 PM) *
Exactly!!Real good post again..It is the small details that are lacking..Most trainers and fighters today look at the big picture,not the small details..Why do ya think Donald Curry KO'd a dude with a left hook for moving his arm back while jabbing,then had the same exact thing done to him against McCallum..

Percy,everyone punches different..Byrd doesn't follow through with any of his punch at all really..Also,he doesn't pivot and get full leverage from his hips into the punches..Byrd doesn't use all of his body weight in his punches..He punched more like an amateur,to score points..Punching power is something you're born with but how many guys bring it out in themselves??Not many today because they don't know how to..If youre 200 lbs and use 140 lbs of your body weight into your punches(even if you have heavy hands),you won't have that 1 punch KO ability like you would if you used all your body weight..Boxing is the sweet science..It's the laws of physics that allow a guy(like Dempsey or Joe Louis) to KO a guy who may have the best chin in the world..Too much force makes it a done deal for anyone..Anyone can say Dempsey and Louis did what they did because that's what they were born with,but if Kearns or Blackburn were around,they'd tell you that Dempsey or Louis never hit like that before they learned how to use all they had..

Watch Louis' hips..He'd put everything he had into his punches and stay balanced if he missed and was able to still react to counters..His stance allowed him to do this since he was perfectly balanced..



I remember reading one of Sugar Ray Robinson's books and there was great detail on how when Robinson first came to the gym, he had alot of fight in him but very little technique. I read that Gainford got him to settle down on his punches and throw them straight and with bodyweight, while Blackburn taught him the combinations and footwork. But when Ray first came to the gym, he was far from the best fighter there, as his skills were not fully honed in.

Thats where the saying goes that some guys are just trainers, while others are teachers.
Fitz
QUOTE (PR316 @ Jul 29 2010, 02:18 PM) *
I hear ya. Too many weight classes plays a role in guys not fighting at their correct weights for sure. But there is quite a fair share of guys that because of their athletic ability can fight but they don't do much of anything necessarily technically correct. Gamboa was one example I listed. And we all know that fighters like Calzaghe and Malignaggi had few KOs because of the way they punched(Or slapped). No commitment at all, and I think thats what Johnny Blaze is trying to say, in that we have alot of guys who just arm punch and don't put bodyweight behind their blows(A fundamental essential for getting max power on your blows).


Yep, I hear you as well about Calzaghe and why I said that I think it does play a role. I just don't think it plays as much of a role as Jonny is suggesting. But he loves old school fighters, so I am not surprised, lol. I think it's a combination of a few things.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE (Fitz @ Jul 29 2010, 12:02 AM) *
Yep, I hear you as well about Calzaghe and why I said that I think it does play a role. I just don't think it plays as much of a role as Jonny is suggesting. But he loves old school fighters, so I am not surprised, lol. I think it's a combination of a few things.

hahahaha..Dude fighters are just not as fundamentally sound,admit it..The fundamentals are what add that extra something..
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE (Fitz @ Jul 29 2010, 04:08 AM) *
You are thick sometimes. I am not saying that fighters now are just as good as the ones back then, or as skilled or anything like that. I am saying I don't think fighters not being taught to punch is as much of a big factor.
Is your trainer the only guy in the world that knows how to teach people how to punch? Because you know the art of punching and have it mastered, but unfortunately the majority of professional fighters out there are missing out because they weren't privileged to have your trainer, who is a rare kind these days. Unfortunately for the majority of professional fighters out there, they have trainers that lost the method on how to punch over the decades. We have all these prize fighters that don't know how to punch correctly, and have trainers that have been teaching them wrong all these times. All while fighthype has this rare kind that was taught. What a small world, huh?

wink.gif

He is not the only one but is the only one I've come across..Don't be salty I got details to back up my claims man..Also,I am not a master in any way,but tend to be one when it's all said and done..Shit is hard as hell as PR also said..I tell it how it is..I see the details and want to share my thoughts on here..You know that man..

Yes,I can be thick at times but really,who is a 1 punch KO artist today??There were so many before,what happened??
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE (Fitz @ Jul 29 2010, 05:42 AM) *
Yeah you are very knowledgeable and definitely one of my favourite posters, but sometimes you can be so extreme or exaggerated, it can annoy me, hence why the salty response, lol. I know you are passionate and very passionate and I love to hear from you, but it can also be your downfall at times, lol.
As for one punch KO artists. Check in the thread, I believe I already mentioned some names. I also gave my reasoning on what happened as well, and if you read, you would see I didn't totally dismiss your reasoning, I just think it's a combination of a lot of things. At least you can admit you are thick, because you did it again by asking me questions that I have answered in this thread already laugh.gif

No hard feelings though dude.

Of course no hard feelings man..I always like to hear your opinion and respect your knowledge as well..

I know I can be thick man but am for a reason..I want to spread the word about boxing today and of yesterday..If you met me in person,you'd be meeting a guy who jokes around a lot..When it comes to boxing though,I just love it so much that I try not to see it as something that it isn't..I am not able to box right now because of my eyes and it has me depressed pretty bad..Todays boxers are all about speed,not power..Power and speed are linked ONLY if you use your body in your punches since speed is power..Boxers who are "punchers" today wouldn't be "punchers" in the past..
The Original MrFactor
This is a great subject. I think that there are just as many 1 punch KO artists as there have ever been. I think that the best pound for pound guys are better defensively that we have seen in the past. Look at guys like Hopkins, Mayweather, Wlad Klitschko. They are all safety first. There's alot of money to be made in not getting hit. There are also guys like Pacquiao, Calzaghe, Williams. Those are guys who overwhelm opponents, essentially smothering the offensive side. It seems that boxing is more boxing-friendly than brawling-friendly today. Even here, it appears that people like the style of Mayweather who will box his ass off for 12 rounds as opposed to Margarito, whose looking to knock your ass out with each punch he throws. Against the better defenders, like we have today, the one punch, one hitter quiters dont have time to load up on that one punch.

A list of one punch KO guys for today would be:

Cotto
Mosley
Margarito
Hatton
Angulo
Pavlik
Abraham
Haye
Peter
Tua(still)
Cintron
Maidana
Judah
Darchinyan

All of these guys can KO you with one punch. They have had to adjust their games to keep pace with guys who are either safety first or buzzsaw's that throw 1300 punches per fight. One punchers are still there, like they have always been. I dont think that there are any fewer than before. Its just that with performance enhancing drugs and an emphasis on more defense to preserve one's career, the actual act of a one punch KO is less prevalent.








JonnyBlaze
QUOTE (The Original MrFactor @ Jul 29 2010, 09:53 AM) *
This is a great subject. I think that there are just as many 1 punch KO artists as there have ever been. I think that the best pound for pound guys are better defensively that we have seen in the past. Look at guys like Hopkins, Mayweather, Wlad Klitschko. They are all safety first. There's alot of money to be made in not getting hit. There are also guys like Pacquiao, Calzaghe, Williams. Those are guys who overwhelm opponents, essentially smothering the offensive side. It seems that boxing is more boxing-friendly than brawling-friendly today. Even here, it appears that people like the style of Mayweather who will box his ass off for 12 rounds as opposed to Margarito, whose looking to knock your ass out with each punch he throws. Against the better defenders, like we have today, the one punch, one hitter quiters dont have time to load up on that one punch.

A list of one punch KO guys for today would be:

Cotto
Mosley
Margarito
Hatton
Angulo
Pavlik
Abraham
Haye
Peter
Tua(still)
Cintron
Maidana
Judah
Darchinyan

All of these guys can KO you with one punch. They have had to adjust their games to keep pace with guys who are either safety first or buzzsaw's that throw 1300 punches per fight. One punchers are still there, like they have always been. I dont think that there are any fewer than before. Its just that with performance enhancing drugs and an emphasis on more defense to preserve one's career, the actual act of a one punch KO is less prevalent.

Of the guys you listed,I don't see many with 1 punch KO power against elite guys with a decent chin..Also,I don't consider guys who end fights with liver shots as 1 punch KO artists UNLESS they are known for the punch like Micky Ward or Chavez SR because it is an art to be able to continue gettin that shot in..If you have 1 liver shot KO on record,it could of just been luck,ya know??

Margarito??How many punches did Cotto take against him while he had loaded gloves??Hatton??I used to think he when he was blowing through guys while moving up the ranks but he wasn't fighting elite guys..

Wlad Klitchko be on the list for sure..He's got serious power in his right and also has power in the left..He tends to soften guys up first like Vitali but Wlad has shown to have the ability to end things with 1 shot..Vitali also has 1 punch power but doesn't show it as much as Wlad..
gravytrain
I think Abraham, Angulo, Maidana, and Darchinyan are the legitimate guys on that list.

The biggest issue is the game in general. You've fighters being trained to fight in the amateurs, turning pro and thinking putting weight behind their shot is using all their power, and don't have a trainer to teach them to sit on their punches.
PR316
QUOTE (The Original MrFactor @ Jul 29 2010, 10:53 AM) *
This is a great subject. I think that there are just as many 1 punch KO artists as there have ever been. I think that the best pound for pound guys are better defensively that we have seen in the past. Look at guys like Hopkins, Mayweather, Wlad Klitschko. They are all safety first. There's alot of money to be made in not getting hit. There are also guys like Pacquiao, Calzaghe, Williams. Those are guys who overwhelm opponents, essentially smothering the offensive side. It seems that boxing is more boxing-friendly than brawling-friendly today. Even here, it appears that people like the style of Mayweather who will box his ass off for 12 rounds as opposed to Margarito, whose looking to knock your ass out with each punch he throws. Against the better defenders, like we have today, the one punch, one hitter quiters dont have time to load up on that one punch.

A list of one punch KO guys for today would be:

Cotto
Mosley
Margarito
Hatton
Angulo
Pavlik
Abraham
Haye
Peter
Tua(still)
Cintron
Maidana
Judah
Darchinyan

All of these guys can KO you with one punch. They have had to adjust their games to keep pace with guys who are either safety first or buzzsaw's that throw 1300 punches per fight. One punchers are still there, like they have always been. I dont think that there are any fewer than before. Its just that with performance enhancing drugs and an emphasis on more defense to preserve one's career, the actual act of a one punch KO is less prevalent.


I really don't consider the likes of Cotto, Mosley, Margarito, Hatton, Pavlik, or Judah to be one punch KO artists. Judah against two bit opposition may show that power but he's never shown it against a top guy. Hatton is a pure mauler that gets it done by roughing you up and breaking you down. All the likes of Cotto, Mosley, Margarito, and Pavlik do it through accumulation more than anything.

Now Maidana, Darchinyan, Angulo, and Abraham have shown that they can end a fight with one good punch. They punch very crisply with alot of bodyweight behind their shots. The commitment is there and thus they get results. None of them is a great boxer per say, but they can crack for sure.

To add, I think we have alot of guys that are just very safety first as well. They throw their shots but with no intentions to hurt, just score. Its that amatuer mentality and style that some just never get out of. Case in point, Paul Malignaggi. Paul Williams you can say is another though when he wants to commit, he can hit guys with some solid shots. David Reid was a classic example of this. Its the reason why his style never adapted to the pros.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE (gravytrain @ Jul 29 2010, 06:50 PM) *
I think Abraham, Angulo, Maidana, and Darchinyan are the legitimate guys on that list.

The biggest issue is the game in general. You've fighters being trained to fight in the amateurs, turning pro and thinking putting weight behind their shot is using all their power, and don't have a trainer to teach them to sit on their punches.

Exactly what I've been saying..To truely use all your body weight is not an easy thing to learn at all..Also when you do use it,you also need to learn to stay perfectly balanced when missing like Ray Robinson and Benny Leonard could do..
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