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PR316
Back in the days this was the comparison constantly made.


Louis was a guy who did everything textbook perfect we can say. The technique, the power in both hands, the footwork, accuracy, combination punching, and the ability to think/adjust in the ring.

Ali was the total opposite. He did almost everything wrong. He held his hands low, pulled straight back from punches, but because he was such a gifted athlete with so much speed and balance, he was able to get away with it alot of the time. Ali was a great improvisor. He could make adjustments on the fly. He just had a feel for everything.


Could see it going either way. I guess Louis is the favorite. But Ali's style would be unlike anything he's ever dealt with. The hand speed and the ability to move out of range was quite remarkable for a man the size of Ali. For everything he did wrong, he just had a way of making it work.

How does everyone else feel?
gravytrain
Even with the dancing shoes on I think Louis could take Ali, however they both have an equal chance of winning. I see it going to a decision and think it'd depend on what the judges were looking for. I'm going with Louis by MD.
JonnyBlaze
Well you could of went with the CC version of Ali who was vulnerable to shots and a lot easier to put down than when he changed his name and after..CC would of been put down several times and in my opinion KO'd by the killer Louis..Yeah,CC would be dancing but I could see Louis parrying Ali's jab,then sliding over to the left with a belly jab and then bring his right leg back to position to close distance and come with a left hook that would put CC down..Just one situation I see happening..
PR316
^^^^^ Well if Ali had a Henry Cooper moment anytime NOT towards the end of the round, I definitely see a KO for Louis. I guess we'd give Ali the benefit of the doubt that because it was JOE LOUIS, that he'd be on his game and focused much like he was against Liston.


The question I have is how would Louis react to a guy that moves so well and can punch very fast too?... I don't think Ali had the power to put Louis down. He would have to rely on his speed and skills to keep Louis at bay. Ali was a little taller, and had a 4 inch reach advantage I believe. That would be key because he doesn't not want to be anywhere near the range of Louis. This isn't Foreman here. The Brown Bomber knew how to open you up and put shots together.
gravytrain
QUOTE (PR316 @ Jul 30 2010, 11:25 AM) *
^^^^^ Well if Ali had a Henry Cooper moment anytime NOT towards the end of the round, I definitely see a KO for Louis. I guess we'd give Ali the benefit of the doubt that because it was JOE LOUIS, that he'd be on his game and focused much like he was against Liston.


The question I have is how would Louis react to a guy that moves so well and can punch very fast too?... I don't think Ali had the power to put Louis down. He would have to rely on his speed and skills to keep Louis at bay. Ali was a little taller, and had a 4 inch reach advantage I believe. That would be key because he doesn't not want to be anywhere near the range of Louis. This isn't Foreman here. The Brown Bomber knew how to open you up and put shots together.


It's hard to use this fight as an example since Liston had a monstrous 84" reach, but during the fight there were some times where I was thinking Louis would use a combo rather than a single shot and could catch Ali. Louis could definitely parry the jab and drop a bomb[no pun intended] on him too.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE (PR316 @ Jul 30 2010, 10:25 AM) *
^^^^^ Well if Ali had a Henry Cooper moment anytime NOT towards the end of the round, I definitely see a KO for Louis. I guess we'd give Ali the benefit of the doubt that because it was JOE LOUIS, that he'd be on his game and focused much like he was against Liston.


The question I have is how would Louis react to a guy that moves so well and can punch very fast too?... I don't think Ali had the power to put Louis down. He would have to rely on his speed and skills to keep Louis at bay. Ali was a little taller, and had a 4 inch reach advantage I believe. That would be key because he doesn't not want to be anywhere near the range of Louis. This isn't Foreman here. The Brown Bomber knew how to open you up and put shots together.

Billy Conn is the guy you're talkin about..Everyone says the movement gave Louis problems but watch the first few rounds..Louis can move really fast as well but didn't have to since he'd be dealing with heavyweights,not middleweights..Louis would also keep his side position,Ali would not be able to work many angles on him by getting to the side of Louis..Louis would keep lined up on guys moving on him and would keep guys out of alignment when he'd be moving on them..Also,Louis would slip jabs and have a counter for the jab while slipping..Ali could catch and uppercut to the floating rib,an overhand over his jab,or a cross to the body(that would look like a hook because of his side position which is how he'd have so much power in the punch)..
King Eugene
So Johnny in other words there was nothing Ali could do that Louis couldn't either stop, counter, or do better? Basically Ali had no chance in beating Louis?

I think Ali had a damn good chance at beating Louis. Louis never fought a guy like Ali. He fought guys that had a similar quality that Ali possessed but not all in one. I think Ali's quick jab followed by the occasional right hand, reflexes and footwork would be enough to get him a decision over Louis. I understand the text book technique Louis possessed but Ali was a different breed of fighter that Louis had never seen.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE (King Eugene @ Aug 7 2010, 03:24 AM) *
So Johnny in other words there was nothing Ali could do that Louis couldn't either stop, counter, or do better? Basically Ali had no chance in beating Louis?

I think Ali had a damn good chance at beating Louis. Louis never fought a guy like Ali. He fought guys that had a similar quality that Ali possessed but not all in one. I think Ali's quick jab followed by the occasional right hand, reflexes and footwork would be enough to get him a decision over Louis. I understand the text book technique Louis possessed but Ali was a different breed of fighter that Louis had never seen.

hahaa..Naw man..Ali would be in the fight for sure..Louis had good footwork too..Ali had a faster jab but Louis had a harder and straighter one in my opinion..What I was saying what certain situations I think that could happen..Could Ali score a flash knockdown on Louis??I think so,but Ali didn't have the thunder to keep him down..

Ali and Billy Conn are similar..That takes nothing away from either one either..Billy Conn is an ATG..They had different moves though of course..

I think Louis would KO or UD Ali but it is possible Ali could win..I just give Louis the real edge..We've seen Ali go down,especially during the CC days..Louis is a harder puncher than the guys he fought pre-rope-a-dope era..Louis would find holes to the body in the rope-a-dope too though in my opinion..Louis was a great body puncher and put everything into those shots..
gravytrain
I'm not sure if I'm in the minority but I think Clay could get the decision. Clay wouldn't get overconfident like Conn, he'd definitely outpoint Louis if he sticks to a game plan. Ali also changed his name after the first Liston fight and I like him in the Liston fight despite being vulnerable.
STEVENSKI
I think the only way to beat a prime Louis is to use a pumping jab (ala Holmes) & constant lateral circling. Louis would only punch when in range & set so you have to keep him turning & not let him get in range or set. Could that be done for a full 15 rounds? It is hard to say & you would have to be aware & on the ball for every second of every round.

Walking through his punches to get your own off is a sure fire way to get hurt & hurt badly & if you fight in spurts you will get caught.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Aug 8 2010, 10:45 PM) *
I think the only way to beat a prime Louis is to use a pumping jab (ala Holmes) & constant lateral circling. Louis would only punch when in range & set so you have to keep him turning & not let him get in range or set. Could that be done for a full 15 rounds? It is hard to say & you would have to be aware & on the ball for every second of every round.

Walking through his punches to get your own off is a sure fire way to get hurt & hurt badly & if you fight in spurts you will get caught.

Louis is always set to punch through his footwork but the range thing is an issue..
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (JonnyBlaze @ Aug 9 2010, 05:23 PM) *
Louis is always set to punch through his footwork but the range thing is an issue..


Not when he was turning according to Eddie Futch who used to spar with him.
gravytrain
Conn's movement gave Louis some serious issues and Conn could only dream about moving like Ali. I think Conn would have won that fight if he didn't get overconfident, once he started trying to fight with Louis he started to find out why he's called the Brown Bomber. Clay, especially a Clay that fought Liston, could take Louis to the cards in a close fight. I think Louis could get the MD but Ali would definitely have a chance to take him to the cards and win on points.

King Eugene
Louis didn't have the sturdiest of chins either. Its possible Ali could have won because he got extra points from a KD. Man its a whole lot of scenarios that could have played out in that fight.
neophyte7
Ali's movement and jab sets up the straight right to Joe's shaky chin too often for mr barrow to see the distance.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE (gravytrain @ Aug 9 2010, 04:49 PM) *
Conn's movement gave Louis some serious issues and Conn could only dream about moving like Ali. I think Conn would have won that fight if he didn't get overconfident, once he started trying to fight with Louis he started to find out why he's called the Brown Bomber. Clay, especially a Clay that fought Liston, could take Louis to the cards in a close fight. I think Louis could get the MD but Ali would definitely have a chance to take him to the cards and win on points.

I don't know about all that..Conn's movement is some of the best I've ever seen at heavyweight..His movement is up there with Ali..

Steve--Futch stopped sparring with Louis cause Louis started beating his ass too much once he got in enough work with Blackburn..Also,Louis would jab moving to his right or left..
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (JonnyBlaze @ Aug 16 2010, 08:26 AM) *
Steve--Futch stopped sparring with Louis cause Louis started beating his ass too much once he got in enough work with Blackburn..Also,Louis would jab moving to his right or left..


Futch was a fucking lightweight Jon.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Aug 16 2010, 07:26 AM) *
Futch was a fucking lightweight Jon.

I know..Louis liked sparring smaller guys so he'd be able to react to bigger guys punches better..Futch would get the better of him at first,than Louis got better through Blackburn and started whoopin Futch..
gravytrain
QUOTE (JonnyBlaze @ Aug 15 2010, 06:26 PM) *
I don't know about all that..Conn's movement is some of the best I've ever seen at heavyweight..His movement is up there with Ali..

Steve--Futch stopped sparring with Louis cause Louis started beating his ass too much once he got in enough work with Blackburn..Also,Louis would jab moving to his right or left..


The way Ali worked in the ring was centuries ahead of Conn. Conn's upper body was stationary, he didn't have the reflexes of Ali, and would often plant his feet and just stay in front of Louis. Ali could be coming in and out of range while slipping punches and getting off.
neophyte7
With what you described...Louis's style gets him annihilated by this ALI we are talking about... stopped with a barrage of viscious flurries after being dropped a few times by right hands as ALI is on the move
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE (neophyte7 @ Aug 19 2010, 04:59 PM) *
With what you described...Louis's style gets him annihilated by this ALI we are talking about... stopped with a barrage of viscious flurries after being dropped a few times by right hands as ALI is on the move

Ali was dropped by Cooper during this CC era..Louis was the most accurate HW ever and his power was among the best..Why do ya think pretty much everyone he faced was scared to fight him??Max Baer was pretty much forced into the ring with him by Jack Dempsey..Louis broke Buddy Baer's ankle by hitting him with a right hand..

Go back and watch some film..I don't see Lous going down by arm punches by Ali while he's on the move..If Ali put weight into a shot,maybe it'd put him down..
neophyte7
Ali would bedazzle the flatfooted barrow and even moving backwards could take down Louis... Ali had good power and he would have no problem head hunting the face fighting one dimensional mr barrow... Yes Ali got caught by Cooper and it could happen against Louis yet and still Ali would prevail. He is greater. I see hinm blowing Louis away within 6... maybe the towel would be thrown in to spare the punishment and humiliation... ken norton Louis KO's him.. as he does Frazier.. Ali and Foreman both in the young ages destroy Joe Louis Barrow.. Larry Holmes would be touched enough by Joe to be vulnerable. Joe would get past those man tits and left jab...
gravytrain
QUOTE (neophyte7 @ Aug 20 2010, 12:12 AM) *
Ali would bedazzle the flatfooted barrow and even moving backwards could take down Louis... Ali had good power and he would have no problem head hunting the face fighting one dimensional mr barrow... Yes Ali got caught by Cooper and it could happen against Louis yet and still Ali would prevail. He is greater. I see hinm blowing Louis away within 6... maybe the towel would be thrown in to spare the punishment and humiliation... ken norton Louis KO's him.. as he does Frazier.. Ali and Foreman both in the young ages destroy Joe Louis Barrow.. Larry Holmes would be touched enough by Joe to be vulnerable. Joe would get past those man tits and left jab...


I don't see it being a blow out by either fighter, it's a tough match up: the best textbook fighter and the best unorthodox fighter. I do think Louis would beat the other fighters you listed though.
JonnyBlaze
QUOTE (neophyte7 @ Aug 19 2010, 11:12 PM) *
Ali would bedazzle the flatfooted barrow and even moving backwards could take down Louis... Ali had good power and he would have no problem head hunting the face fighting one dimensional mr barrow... Yes Ali got caught by Cooper and it could happen against Louis yet and still Ali would prevail. He is greater. I see hinm blowing Louis away within 6... maybe the towel would be thrown in to spare the punishment and humiliation... ken norton Louis KO's him.. as he does Frazier.. Ali and Foreman both in the young ages destroy Joe Louis Barrow.. Larry Holmes would be touched enough by Joe to be vulnerable. Joe would get past those man tits and left jab...

Flatfooted??Dude you need to go back and watch some film.. laugh.gif Louis would always move on the ball of his foot..Watch his heels,they come up while he moves but the front part of his foot stays down.He'd slide which is how he was able to move in and away from some guys without them seeing the movement until he was on em..Louis also was able to punch full powered while moving backwards(another sign of not being flatfooted since he gets full power)..

One dimensional??No way..One dimensional guys can't make adjustments since they way they fight is all they know..Joe had a great ability to change a fight around..He also fought oppoents differently or atleast differently in the fight(aggressive,laid back,counter punching)..His accuracy,power,and jab is a deadly combo for any of his opponents..Joe had good head movement as displayed in the Max Baer fight..I see him slipping Ali's jab while moving in and coming with either a right hand or left hook that would do major damage to Ali and make Ali think twice about decisions he'd make in the fight..Joe also was able to clear his head pretty well when he'd get caught so I don't see that as a problem in the fight..
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (neophyte7 @ Aug 20 2010, 02:12 PM) *
Ali would bedazzle the flatfooted barrow and even moving backwards could take down Louis... Ali had good power and he would have no problem head hunting the face fighting one dimensional mr barrow... Yes Ali got caught by Cooper and it could happen against Louis yet and still Ali would prevail. He is greater. I see hinm blowing Louis away within 6... maybe the towel would be thrown in to spare the punishment and humiliation... ken norton Louis KO's him.. as he does Frazier.. Ali and Foreman both in the young ages destroy Joe Louis Barrow.. Larry Holmes would be touched enough by Joe to be vulnerable. Joe would get past those man tits and left jab...


Wow just wow. You see him blowing Joe away within six & I see you hitting a pipe double time.
Jack 1000
This would have to be a best of three series,

Assume all fights are the old 15-round distance.

Assume Joe had trouble with movers, Walcott, especially Conn.

Ali as Clay was a master at moving and not getting hit. and throwing out punches before opponents could see them being thrown.

Have to take Ali by unanimous decision around 9-6 , 10-5, and 8-7 in rounds.

If the Ali showed up after the layoff years like when Frazier fought him the first time and the trouble he had with Norton, I think the "Brown Bomber" could stop him late after being behind on points, (TKO 14) I would say.

Than if they do a rubber match, I would take Ali by decision again in a fight similar to the first one.

Jack
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