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Full Version: Is B.J. Penn a Top 10 ATG?
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The CEO
I dooon't knooowww....

You got...in no particular order...


Royce Gracie

Matt Hughes

Fedor

Shogun

Wanderlei Silva

Sakuraba

Anderson Silva

GSP

Randy Couture


then Kimo and Penn maybe?

LOL
Warlord
QUOTE (The CEO @ Aug 29 2010, 12:03 AM) *
I dooon't knooowww....

You got...in no particular order...


Royce Gracie

Matt Hughes

Fedor

Shogun

Wanderlei Silva

Sakuraba

Anderson Silva

GSP

Randy Couture


then Kimo and Penn maybe?

LOL

From a skill standpoint, yes, he most certainly is.

From an achievement standpoint, at this point, I would say no. Penn is a perennial under-achiever. I actually think he needs to go up to welterweight. BJ needs an insurmountable challenge to get himself up for fights these days, and that isn't really ever gonna be the case at lightweight.

P.S. Royce is an all-time great, but I don't quite know how long we can continue to justify putting him in the upper-echelon. The sport passed him by pretty quickly. This is coming from a massive Gracie fan as well. I might even put Rickson on that list before Royce.

Rickson showed a much more well-rounded game, even if he didn't do it on as big a stage.
The CEO
QUOTE (Warlord @ Aug 29 2010, 04:14 AM) *
From a skill standpoint, yes, he most certainly is.

From an achievement standpoint, at this point, I would say no. Penn is a perennial under-achiever. I actually think he needs to go up to welterweight. BJ needs an insurmountable challenge to get himself up for fights these days, and that isn't really ever gonna be the case at lightweight.

P.S. Royce is an all-time great, but I don't quite know how long we can continue to justify putting him in the upper-echelon. The sport passed him by pretty quickly. This is coming from a massive Gracie fan as well. I might even put Rickson on that list before Royce.

Rickson showed a much more well-rounded game, even if he didn't do it on as big a stage.


That's a fair assessment...at his best, his skills are undeniable...

but all things considered, I can't put him in The Top 10 now...MIGHT have had him at #10 before he met Frankie Edgar though...lol

I think last night was very crucial to his Legacy...winning that rematch convincingly would have said a lot...he should have known that and been up for it.


I also agree about Royce.....I'd say putting him on a pedestal for at least another 8 years would be sufficient...giving him the Jack Johnson treatment on a shorter time line per se....
thehype
I concur with pretty much everything that's already been said.

He completely laid an egg against Edgar. He kind of looked like that old fighter hoping to win by landing that one punch. His game plan didn't change at all. Methinks he needs to reassess his training camp and maybe think about working with some different folks. He's a very stubborn guy though, so I don't see him doing that.
Mean Mister Mustard
QUOTE (thehype @ Aug 29 2010, 01:42 PM) *
I concur with pretty much everything that's already been said.

He completely laid an egg against Edgar. He kind of looked like that old fighter hoping to win by landing that one punch. His game plan didn't change at all. Methinks he needs to reassess his training camp and maybe think about working with some different folks. He's a very stubborn guy though, so I don't see him doing that.


Yes he is. An example would be his claim that GSP was greased up during their rematch, and that is why he was so soundly beaten.

Perhaps at this stage of his career, after two consecutive losses, he will reevaluate his training regimen. Then again, maybe Edgar was just a bad style for him.
Run and Gun Game Calls
top 10, i say yes I put him above


Matt Hughes

Shogun

Wanderlei Silva

and

Sakuraba
kidbazooka1
Unfortunatly I have to agree with War on this one. LOL

Rickson although not aswell known as Royce to the average fan was much more well rounded and had superior BJJ(even Royce admitted this)definitly belongs in the top 10 and i would have to put BJ above Hughes aswell.
Warlord
QUOTE (Run and Gun Game Calls @ Nov 30 2010, 10:21 PM) *
top 10, i say yes I put him above


Matt Hughes

Shogun

Wanderlei Silva

and

Sakuraba

No way he goes above Shogun, Silva, or Sakuraba. Sakuraba and Silva are top 5, Shogun is not far behind. They all have better comp records than B.J.
Warlord
QUOTE (kidbazooka1 @ Dec 1 2010, 02:01 AM) *
Unfortunatly I have to agree with War on this one. LOL

Why is that unfortunate? laugh.gif

QUOTE
Rickson although not aswell known as Royce to the average fan was much more well rounded and had superior BJJ(even Royce admitted this)definitly belongs in the top 10 and i would have to put BJ above Hughes aswell.

Rickson is the best of the Gracies. By far.
Run and Gun Game Calls
QUOTE (Warlord @ Dec 1 2010, 06:59 AM) *
No way he goes above Shogun, Silva, or Sakuraba. Sakuraba and Silva are top 5, Shogun is not far behind. They all have better comp records than B.J.


Sakuraba like royce won when alot of guys were still brawling instead of fighting true mma. While sakuraba was a good fighter with alot of good wins, put in in a ring prime v/s prime against BJ and I think BJ penn wins, but that would be an incredable fight.

Wanderlei silva though in my opinion isnt close to BJ Penn all time. Silva lost almost every time he stepped up. He did decision dan henderson, and owned Jackson when Jackson was coming up. And beat up a much smaller sakuraba. but other than that he lost to belfort by tko, tito ortiz, mark hunt and ricardo arona???? really? Lost to chuck liddel, jackson, and rich franklin. Way over rated. Most of his wins were against underqualified fighters in pride.

BJ penn beat well rounded fighters like, florian, sherk, hughes (in hughes prime), Sanchez, stevenson, renzo and rodrogo gracie, gomi (in his prime), serra, uno, and din thomas.

The good old days in mma were not so good. You had a few well rounded fighters who dominated the game over guys who had no clue how to defend themselves. The guys on BJ penns resume are far superior to anything Walderlei accomplished.


The CEO
Still on the cusp for me...
Run and Gun Game Calls
dont know how you got penn on the cusp when he won 2 out of three fights with hughes. Also considering hughes is considered p4p the strongest fighter in mma, BJ beat Hughes once in his prime, Bj was fighting a weight class above his natural weight, and you have hughes listed in the top 10
Warlord
QUOTE (Run and Gun Game Calls @ Dec 1 2010, 09:31 AM) *
Sakuraba like royce won when alot of guys were still brawling instead of fighting true mma. While sakuraba was a good fighter with alot of good wins, put in in a ring prime v/s prime against BJ and I think BJ penn wins, but that would be an incredable fight.

Check the numbers, bro. Sakuraba is light years beyond B.J. Penn in the accomplishment department.

Kazushi Sakuraba - 26 wins

Wins 4 (T)KOs ( 15.38 %)
19 Submissions ( 73.08 %)
3 Decisions ( 11.54 %)

Sakuraba finishes nearly 74% of his opponents within the time-limit... by submission alone! Add in TKO/KO finishes, and Kazushi Sakuraba finishes his oppnents 88.46% of the time... that's nearly 90 fucking percent! One of the highest finish rates... ever! Higher than Anderson Silva, the UFC's self-proclaimed GOAT. Higher than Fedor. And higher than Penn.

Kazushi Sakuraba - Greatest Wins [Underlined names are all former champions.]

Win Ikuhisa Minowa Technical Submission (Kimura)
Win Ken Shamrock TKO (Punch)
Win Kevin Randleman Submission (Armbar) [UFC Heavyweight Champion]
Win Quinton Jackson Submission (Rear Naked Choke) [UFC Light Heavyweight Champion]
Win Ryan Gracie Decision (Unanimous)
Win Renzo Gracie Technical Submission (Kimura)
Win Royce Gracie TKO (Corner Stoppage) [3-Time UFC Tournament Champion]
Win Guy Mezger TKO (Retirement)
Win Royler Gracie Technical Submission (Kimura)
Win Ebenezer Fontes Braga Submission (Armbar)
Win Vitor Belfort Decision (Unanimous) [UFC Heavyweight Champion]
Win Carlos Newton Submission (Kneebar) [UFC Welterweight Champion]
Win Vernon White Submission (Armbar)

Kazushi Sakuraba spent his entire career fighting (and usually beating) men far, far beyond his own weight. He demolished the Gracie clan when the world still saw them as unbeatable. I'll take Sakuraba's wins over Royce Gracie, Ken Shamrock, Rampage Jackson, Vitor Belfort, and Kevin Randleman over any 5 wins that you think define BJ Penn's career.



QUOTE
Wanderlei silva though in my opinion isnt close to BJ Penn all time. Silva lost almost every time he stepped up. He did decision dan henderson, and owned Jackson when Jackson was coming up. And beat up a much smaller sakuraba. but other than that he lost to belfort by tko, tito ortiz, mark hunt and ricardo arona???? really? Lost to chuck liddel, jackson, and rich franklin. Way over rated. Most of his wins were against underqualified fighters in pride.

I'm not going to spend as much time debating Wanderlei's spot as Sakuraba's, because Wanderlei generally gets the respect he deserves.

I'll just say Wanderlei's best victories outweigh Penn's, and Wanderlei's reign as the Pride Middleweight Champion was one of the longest, most dominant title reigns in MMA history. 6 years he reigned, unquestionably the greatest 205lber in the world at that time. BJ Penn never had, and never will have, those kinds of credentials.

QUOTE
BJ penn beat well rounded fighters like, florian, sherk, hughes (in hughes prime), Sanchez, stevenson, renzo and rodrogo gracie, gomi (in his prime), serra, uno, and din thomas.

You're giving BJ credit for wins that you won't give Wanderlei or Sakuraba credit for.

Florian is a gatekeeper, Sherk is one-dimensional, Hughes isn't from this generation any more than Royce is, Sanchez is shit at 155, Stevenson is shit at any weight, Renzo was 90 when they fought, Rodrigo is like the 34th best Gracie, Gomi was not close to his prime but it is still BJ's best win, Serra is shit, Uno is a good win, and Din Thomas is a never-was who doesn't really merit mentioning in this discussion.

QUOTE
The good old days in mma were not so good. You had a few well rounded fighters who dominated the game over guys who had no clue how to defend themselves. The guys on BJ penns resume are far superior to anything Walderlei accomplished.

I'll take wins over Kazushi Sakuraba (3x), Rampage Jackson(2x), Dan Henderson, and Ricardo Arona over any 7 fights you think define BJ Penn any day of the week.


Anyway, it's nothing personal. I like you, Run, and am glad to be having a real conversation with someone who knows MMA. So don't feel like I'm disrespecting you or shitting on your opinion. I'm not.
Run and Gun Game Calls
Its all good we just disagree bro
Warlord
QUOTE (Run and Gun Game Calls @ Dec 2 2010, 12:41 AM) *
Its all good we just disagree bro

I think we agree on Anderson Silva's over-rated ass, though. laugh.gif

As for Penn, off of pure talent there are few fighters, if any, that can really compare. From that standpoint he always merits discussion. Career-wise he's just been such a huge under-achiever, and a notoriously streaky fighter. He's still got time to catapult himself into the upper echelon of all-time greats, but I just don't think he's there yet, and the clock is ticking.


And now to get wildly off topic, prime for prime, I think Sakuraba toys with Anderson Silva and submits him. Anderson has never shown the ability to deal with unorthodox fighters, and his takedown defense is garbage. Sakuraba has some of the best takedowns in MMA history, and he knew what to do from every position. Sakuraba in top position would be Anderson's death knell. He'd get arm-barred or knee-barred.

Fighters in the UFC today still don't have the raw natural talent that Sakuraba had. EVERY event you see some shit head doing the butt-scoot, or laying on his back throwing weak, shitty, half-hearted up-kicks. And their opponents have NO CLUE what to do. They're all like just standing over them and shit, trying to figure out what to do.

Sakuraba would leg kick those mother-fuckers to death. They'd be welted up in minutes, hobbling back to their corners in agony. (See Sakuraba/Belfort.) And if he wasn't leg kicking you, he was doing other crazy shit. That flying M. Bison-style tornado death stomp he hit Belfort with (twice!) was hilarious, ingenious, and amazingly effective all at once.

God I miss Sakuraba. Prime Sakuraba. The guy was one in a million.
dominicbuilder9k1
QUOTE (The CEO @ Aug 29 2010, 05:05 AM) *
That's a fair assessment...at his best, his skills are undeniable...

but all things considered, I can't put him in The Top 10 now...MIGHT have had him at #10 before he met Frankie Edgar though...lol

I think last night was very crucial to his Legacy...winning that rematch convincingly would have said a lot...he should have known that and been up for it.


I also agree about Royce.....I'd say putting him on a pedestal for at least another 8 years would be sufficient...giving him the Jack Johnson treatment on a shorter time line per se....


I agree..!!!.
Run and Gun Game Calls
QUOTE (Warlord @ Dec 2 2010, 02:59 AM) *
I think we agree on Anderson Silva's over-rated ass, though. laugh.gif

As for Penn, off of pure talent there are few fighters, if any, that can really compare. From that standpoint he always merits discussion. Career-wise he's just been such a huge under-achiever, and a notoriously streaky fighter. He's still got time to catapult himself into the upper echelon of all-time greats, but I just don't think he's there yet, and the clock is ticking.


And now to get wildly off topic, prime for prime, I think Sakuraba toys with Anderson Silva and submits him. Anderson has never shown the ability to deal with unorthodox fighters, and his takedown defense is garbage. Sakuraba has some of the best takedowns in MMA history, and he knew what to do from every position. Sakuraba in top position would be Anderson's death knell. He'd get arm-barred or knee-barred.

Fighters in the UFC today still don't have the raw natural talent that Sakuraba had. EVERY event you see some shit head doing the butt-scoot, or laying on his back throwing weak, shitty, half-hearted up-kicks. And their opponents have NO CLUE what to do. They're all like just standing over them and shit, trying to figure out what to do.

Sakuraba would leg kick those mother-fuckers to death. They'd be welted up in minutes, hobbling back to their corners in agony. (See Sakuraba/Belfort.) And if he wasn't leg kicking you, he was doing other crazy shit. That flying M. Bison-style tornado death stomp he hit Belfort with (twice!) was hilarious, ingenious, and amazingly effective all at once.

God I miss Sakuraba. Prime Sakuraba. The guy was one in a million.




Anderson silva is the most over hyped fighter in mma history. He is a very good fighter, but best all time??? Hell no. He hasnt ever had to fight anyone. a submission win over Dan Henderson is the only win on his record i would call a great win. he has alot of good wins though.

I dont wanna take anything away from thew guy, but just because a ufc put your ass on the cover and proclaims you the best ever to promote their product, doesnt make it so.

I agree Sakuraba in his prime was the most talented fighter i have ever seen, followed closely by BJ penn
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