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BigG
Would he? I think he would KO the Klitschko bitches. Discuss...
gravytrain
Even if he did destroy them he'd eventually lose focus and get destroyed.

Lil-lightsout
A prime Tyson would KO all top ten ranked heavies in one night if he was aloud.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (Lil-lightsout @ Oct 5 2010, 01:25 AM) *
A prime Tyson would KO all top ten ranked heavies in one night if he was aloud.


Just about. I certainly think he could probably have 10 fights in 10 months and win 'em all. A prime Holy would kick the crap out of them as well.
Warlord
I'd pick Tyson to steamroll baby Klit, but I think Vitali would jab him to death and finish him late. Tyson always had trouble with taller fighters who knew how to use their reach effectively. And knowing what we know now, Tyson would've shut down against Vitali as soon as he didn't get him out early.

I agree with whoever mentioned Holyfield. I'd pick him over either Klit, though, again, I think Vitali would be the tougher challenge for him.
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (Warlord @ Oct 5 2010, 10:03 AM) *
I'd pick Tyson to steamroll baby Klit, but I think Vitali would jab him to death and finish him late. Tyson always had trouble with taller fighters who knew how to use their reach effectively. And knowing what we know now, Tyson would've shut down against Vitali as soon as he didn't get him out early.

I agree with whoever mentioned Holyfield. I'd pick him over either Klit, though, again, I think Vitali would be the tougher challenge for him.

What da Conductor said, though I think Tyson might TKO Vitali as well in his prime or scare him so bad that IM would squeeze out a decision.
ROLL DEEP
Tyson could bust up every heavyweight in the space of a few months.


The only one's he'd have trouble with is Vitali and Wladimir, both because of their size and how well they use it.



If Wlad couldn't hurt Tyson and establish his punching power early on in the fight, Tyson picks up his momentum and gets Wlad out of there. That would probably be the likely outcome.

I'd imagine Tyson would beat Vitali too, but Vitali is a very crafty technician and uses his height and reach so well that he could frustrate Tyson and leave him plodding around the ring and giving up.
Box in Hand
Tyson would most likely beat the living hell out of all of them and no way does Manny put Klits in with him. However I do see the Klits brothers jabbing Tyson to death ala Lennox Lewis.
thehype
Most of the opponents that Tyson DID beat in his prime would likely destroy everyone in today's heavyweight division, save for Vitalia and Wladimaria.

Today's heavyweights...wait...scratch that...just today's fighters in general simply aren't as hungry as yesterday's fighters.

There's a lot of BITCHASSNESS going on in boxing. These cats are just looking for the quickest way to the biggest payday and then cashing in. It's like the difference between playing poker and roulette.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (ROLL DEEP @ Oct 5 2010, 10:36 AM) *
Tyson could bust up every heavyweight in the space of a few months.


The only one's he'd have trouble with is Vitali and Wladimir, both because of their size and how well they use it.



If Wlad couldn't hurt Tyson and establish his punching power early on in the fight, Tyson picks up his momentum and gets Wlad out of there. That would probably be the likely outcome.

I'd imagine Tyson would beat Vitali too, but Vitali is a very crafty technician and uses his height and reach so well that he could frustrate Tyson and leave him plodding around the ring and giving up.


i just think prime tysons bobbing and weaving to get inside might nullify that constant jabbing the klits do (similar to the tucker fight).... tyson would get inside and explode...

same with holyfield... he would kick the shit out of these brothers in his prime too...

damn it hurts my heart to think of the heavyweight division back in the late 80's early 90's and the shit situation its in now... the top 20 or so fighters was just laced with legit fighters that could and would bring it win or lose.. even the fringe contenders was dangerous... big change from then to now...
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (Warlord @ Oct 5 2010, 09:03 AM) *
I'd pick Tyson to steamroll baby Klit, but I think Vitali would jab him to death and finish him late. Tyson always had trouble with taller fighters who knew how to use their reach effectively. And knowing what we know now, Tyson would've shut down against Vitali as soon as he didn't get him out early.

I agree with whoever mentioned Holyfield. I'd pick him over either Klit, though, again, I think Vitali would be the tougher challenge for him.



We agree mostly but I don't think prime Tyson wasn't a quitter. Admittingly his prime was fleeting but on his way up he got a couple of decent contests from Tillis and Green who both refused to buy into the Tyson hype and I thought there were some rounds from Tilllis in particular where he gave Mike hell and if you look at the last round Tyson was still fighting strong. I saw an interview with Holyfield recently where he mentioned that when he and Tyson were younger Mike trained harder than he did.

To be honest it's hard to imagine any HW training harder than Evander but hey it came from his own lips. My point being that Tyson pre-Spinks was a real fighter, wanted to fight and I don't think some stiff jabs from Vitali would've caused him to 'shuit down' the way he did in the last 2 thirds of his career, but hey that's just my 2 cents worth.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (Box in Hand @ Oct 6 2010, 07:47 AM) *
Tyson would most likely beat the living hell out of all of them and no way does Manny put Klits in with him. However I do see the Klits brothers jabbing Tyson to death ala Lennox Lewis.



I agree with this. Tyson was good at slipping the jab but he was very mechanical in the way he did it & only knew one way to do so. Once a fighter figures out his timing on that & grab Tyson on the inside you are 1/2 way to beating him. Problem is most fighters bricked themselves before they even got in the ring. Those that did not get scared may have lost but they showed you could extend Tyson 7 land some good shots on him.

That said it would be 80/20 that he would send either Klit to the hospital.
uppercutking
If you really know Tyson's history you would know that Mike was one of the most focused, determined not to mention hard working fighters before his legally adopted father Cus D'amato passed. I have the book where I read this if anyone wants to know, but in this book it talks in specifics how Cus had Mike spar for two years straight without throwing any punches. If you look at his defense before and up to Cus's passing it was immaculate. There is really no denying that fact. It all went down hill not just when he lost Cus he also lost (or got rid of) his managers who were genuinely good to him and had his best interest in hand. They were Jim Jacobs and Bill Cayton. Once he got with Don King and lost his mangers even though he was winning he was never the same. Know on to the Klitchkos's: Mike in his prime pre Cus's death would Ice Vlad. PERIOD END OF STORY! Vitali would be really interesting but what I feel people are forgetting is the fact that when Mike fought Lewis that wasn't even a close to prime Tyson. Even if you disagree I still say mike Takes out both both brothers. Vitali would be tough but Prime Mike Tyson there was and will never be anyone like that AGAIN.!
uppercutking
If you really know Tyson's history you would know that Mike was one of the most focused, determined not to mention hard working fighters before his legally adopted father Cus D'amato passed. I have the book where I read this if anyone wants to know, but in this book it talks in specifics how Cus had Mike spar for two years straight without throwing any punches. If you look at his defense before and up to Cus's passing it was immaculate. There is really no denying that fact. It all went down hill not just when he lost Cus he also lost (or got rid of) his managers who were genuinely good to him and had his best interest in hand. They were Jim Jacobs and Bill Cayton. Once he got with Don King and lost his mangers even though he was winning he was never the same. Know on to the Klitchkos's: Mike in his prime pre Cus's death would Ice Vlad. PERIOD END OF STORY! Vitali would be really interesting but what I feel people are forgetting is the fact that when Mike fought Lewis that wasn't even a close to prime Tyson. Even if you disagree I still say mike Takes out both both brothers. Vitali would be tough but Prime Mike Tyson there was and will never be anyone like that AGAIN.!
Romulus9
It all went downhill when Kevin Rooney was gone, which was right after Tyson's single greatest performance (the 91 second destruction of Michael Spinks). Rooney and Cayton were replaced by Robin Givens, Jay Bright, and Don King.

Tyson was never the same and, not coincidentally, neither was Kevin Rooney.

Personally, I think prime Tyson would have had an easier time with Vitali than Wlad but either of the brothers would have given Tyson fits after four rounds. For God's sake, Quick Tillis and Mitch Green fought fairly well after the initial onslaught and that was EARLY pre-title Tyson. Bonecrusher Smith went 12. Tony Tucker went 12. Razor Ruddock had his moments in the second fight (of course, that was post-Rooney).

As much hype and respect and awe that is given to Tyson, he is STILL talked about as a "what if?" fighter. That speaks volumes.
Run and Gun Game Calls
Look a prime tyson destroys all of the current heavyweights, even vitalli.

We are talking PRIME here.

People forget a very unprepaired and unfocused tyson still almost pulled out the win over douglas.

After the loss to douglas tyson had two very good wins against a prime razor ruddock, (who I would pick over both Klits any day of the week)

Tyson destroyed a Larry Holmes who was attempting a comeback, and had a fantastic jab. whats significant about this win? Look at the other top notch heavyweight fighters larry fought on his comeback, none of them were able to handle him the way tyson did.

And finally look at frank bruno, again another big fighter i would choose over both klits, and tyson devistated him.

Tyson would hurt, and i mean seriously hurt this crop of heavyweights
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (Romulus9 @ Oct 5 2010, 08:13 PM) *
Personally, I think prime Tyson would have had an easier time with Vitali than Wlad but either of the brothers would have given Tyson fits after four rounds. For God's sake, Quick Tillis and Mitch Green fought fairly well after the initial onslaught and that was EARLY pre-title Tyson. Bonecrusher Smith went 12. Tony Tucker went 12. Razor Ruddock had his moments in the second fight (of course, that was post-Rooney).

As much hype and respect and awe that is given to Tyson, he is STILL talked about as a "what if?" fighter. That speaks volumes.


Using this logic of who beat who, Ross 'The Boss' Purrity would've been a monster back in the late 80's.
Romulus9
Wlad is a VERY different fighter from the one that lost to Ross Puritty. We're talking prime versus prime here.

Just like the Lennox Lewis that fought Oliver McCall was far different from the (focused) one that decimated Hasim Rahman.
Lil-lightsout
Oh my gosh. Tyson would fucking murder both Klits! Tyson was a beast with non stop smart aggression at his best, both Klits would have been KO'd. They would have never been able to keep Mike off them. Wlad would have been iced within 3 rounds, and Vitali would have lasted longer due to his toughness and awkward style.

Warlord
QUOTE (Lil-lightsout @ Oct 5 2010, 11:13 PM) *
Oh my gosh. Tyson would fucking murder both Klits! Tyson was a beast with non stop smart aggression at his best, both Klits would have been KO'd. They would have never been able to keep Mike off them. Wlad would have been iced within 3 rounds, and Vitali would have lasted longer due to his toughness and awkward style.

While I'm certainly glad to see Tyson getting some love around here, I still have to point out the obvious. When have you EVER seen Vitali hurt? And it isn't like he's never faced heavy punchers. Lennox Lewis, Corrie Sanders, Danny Williamz (westside...), Samuel Peter, and Chris Arreola ALL have shown true KO power, yet Vitali has never even been rocked, let alone floored. And he was in a fucking WAR with Lewis.

I certainly don't have any problems with people giving Tyson the edge over Vitali in a mythical match-up. But it's a little ludicrous to hear statements like "murder" and "KO" being bandied about, considering both men's prior history. I.E. Tyson struggling with tall fighters with range, Vitali proving to have a cast-iron jaw.
Lil-lightsout
QUOTE (Warlord @ Oct 6 2010, 01:08 AM) *
While I'm certainly glad to see Tyson getting some love around here, I still have to point out the obvious. When have you EVER seen Vitali hurt? And it isn't like he's never faced heavy punchers. Lennox Lewis, Corrie Sanders, Danny Williamz (westside...), Samuel Peter, and Chris Arreola ALL have shown true KO power, yet Vitali has never even been rocked, let alone floored. And he was in a fucking WAR with Lewis.

I certainly don't have any problems with people giving Tyson the edge over Vitali in a mythical match-up. But it's a little ludicrous to hear statements like "murder" and "KO" being bandied about, considering both men's prior history. I.E. Tyson struggling with tall fighters with range, Vitali proving to have a cast-iron jaw.


From my recollection I remember seeing Vitali hurt in the 1st round with Corrie Sanders. It was only his toughness and chin that eventually wore out Sanders and gave him a beating later. Not trying to bash Vitali, cause I actually like him a little. But IMO with Vitali's hands down at his waist style might work with some of today's shitty heavies, but it would be suicidal against Tyson with his speed, power, and aggression. Vitali showed huge guts against a very sloppy unmotivated Lewis, but if Lewis would have been younger and much sharper, it would have been a different fight. My take is Vitali SAW all of Lewis' bombs coming and could take them better. And I truly can verify that by experience. It is the punches you DON'T see that really hurt you. And that is where I believe Tyson could hurt Vitali.

Just my take man. I like many of us remember prime Tyson, and honestly to me he was a fucking beast who IMO he could have beaten anyone from any era on his best night.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (Warlord @ Oct 6 2010, 12:08 AM) *
While I'm certainly glad to see Tyson getting some love around here, I still have to point out the obvious. When have you EVER seen Vitali hurt? And it isn't like he's never faced heavy punchers. Lennox Lewis, Corrie Sanders, Danny Williamz (westside...), Samuel Peter, and Chris Arreola ALL have shown true KO power, yet Vitali has never even been rocked, let alone floored. And he was in a fucking WAR with Lewis.

I certainly don't have any problems with people giving Tyson the edge over Vitali in a mythical match-up. But it's a little ludicrous to hear statements like "murder" and "KO" being bandied about, considering both men's prior history. I.E. Tyson struggling with tall fighters with range, Vitali proving to have a cast-iron jaw.


I'll take Tyson over Vitalia but I won't give it to him by 'murder' either.

One thing, when people make these match-ups they make them 'prime for prime.' Fact is by the time either Klit got to their prime they both had been beaten. It could even be said that Vitali's greatest performance (Lewis) was still a losing cause. Tyson leading up to his prime (Spinks) had not been beaten or not even been close to beaten. The reason I mention it is because he had an air of invincibility which neither Klit has. This does play a part when assessing who would win. Up to his prime Mike didn't really believe he could be beaten and that gives him an edge IMHO.

As for Tyson struggling with tall fighters, to me that is just mythical bullshit. Tillis, an ultra tough veteran gave him some tough rounds but up until his prime frankly no-one came even CLOSE to beating Tyson. To me giving a fighter 'trouble' means you were leading on points or you put him on the deck or you rocked him or swelled him real bad.

I saw none of that leading up to the Spinks fight. Mike DOMINATED every fight he was in, and in the fights that did go 12 won clearly going away. I see no trouble.

Now if you mean 'trouble' as being he didn't always knock out those tall rangy fighters within 3 rounds, then yeah I guess they gave Mike 'trouble.' laugh.gif

Smith, Green and Tillis were all very clever HW's capable of making fights ugly and I doubt that either Klit would knock them out as well.

Now post Spinks yes taller fighters gave him trouble, but then so did Holyfield who is not a big HW. It is almost impossible to assess his career after Spinks because by his own admission (and those of others close to him) he had ceased to care about boxing and did most of his training in his bedroom, at bars and nightclubs or crack houses. With that kind of routine I'm not surprised he struggled.

I take Mike to blow Klit the younger away in 3 or less and Mike to win a UD over Klit the elder with possibly an early knock down to Mike but Vitali gets up, composes himself and goes the 12 (he is a tough dude.)
ROLL DEEP
QUOTE (Warlord @ Oct 6 2010, 12:08 AM) *
While I'm certainly glad to see Tyson getting some love around here, I still have to point out the obvious. When have you EVER seen Vitali hurt? And it isn't like he's never faced heavy punchers. Lennox Lewis, Corrie Sanders, Danny Williamz (westside...), Samuel Peter, and Chris Arreola ALL have shown true KO power, yet Vitali has never even been rocked, let alone floored. And he was in a fucking WAR with Lewis.

I certainly don't have any problems with people giving Tyson the edge over Vitali in a mythical match-up. But it's a little ludicrous to hear statements like "murder" and "KO" being bandied about, considering both men's prior history. I.E. Tyson struggling with tall fighters with range, Vitali proving to have a cast-iron jaw.



That's what I was thinking.


We've seen Wladimir on the canvas looking out of it, so you can see Tyson doing the same thing....but Vitali?
ViperSniper
QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ Oct 5 2010, 09:42 PM) *
We agree mostly but I don't think prime Tyson wasn't a quitter. Admittingly his prime was fleeting but on his way up he got a couple of decent contests from Tillis and Green who both refused to buy into the Tyson hype and I thought there were some rounds from Tilllis in particular where he gave Mike hell and if you look at the last round Tyson was still fighting strong. I saw an interview with Holyfield recently where he mentioned that when he and Tyson were younger Mike trained harder than he did.

To be honest it's hard to imagine any HW training harder than Evander but hey it came from his own lips. My point being that Tyson pre-Spinks was a real fighter, wanted to fight and I don't think some stiff jabs from Vitali would've caused him to 'shuit down' the way he did in the last 2 thirds of his career, but hey that's just my 2 cents worth.


Agreed.

Many focus on the flaws Tyson showed later in his career when talking about how he was in his younger. In his prime he had not lost his entire training camp, he had not had a divorce, he had never been to prison, never been that inactive and had never lost a fight. A young, prime Tyson didn't have all that stuff happen to him & didn't have shit to worry about when he was actually in his prime.

Even against Douglas he was no longer in his prime but kept coming forward throwing punches even though he was getting a beating in the process.

QUOTE (Run and Gun Game Calls @ Oct 6 2010, 02:17 AM) *
Look a prime tyson destroys all of the current heavyweights, even vitalli.

We are talking PRIME here.

People forget a very unprepaired and unfocused tyson still almost pulled out the win over douglas.

After the loss to douglas tyson had two very good wins against a prime razor ruddock, (who I would pick over both Klits any day of the week)

Tyson destroyed a Larry Holmes who was attempting a comeback, and had a fantastic jab. whats significant about this win? Look at the other top notch heavyweight fighters larry fought on his comeback, none of them were able to handle him the way tyson did.

And finally look at frank bruno, again another big fighter i would choose over both klits, and tyson devistated him.

Tyson would hurt, and i mean seriously hurt this crop of heavyweights


Agreed.

Sure Holmes was no longer at his best but no one ever beat him the way Tyson did which makes the win pretty impressive. Holmes fought many years after wards against top young fighters and was never stopped again.

Tyson KO's Wlad early and unless Tyson stops Vitali on cuts, I'd lean towards a UD victory.
Run and Gun Game Calls
I gotta disagree about vitalli even going the distance with tyson. Vitallis style isnt know for holding smaller fighters, and he has very little head movement, and he fights with his hands at his waste. I dont care how tough you care, you can have the best chin in the world, nobody could just stand in front of Tyson and let him tee off. Thats exactly what Vitalli would do. Yes Vitalli has guts, but like ruddock, around round 7 or 8 the big tree would fall.
Warlord
QUOTE (ViperSniper @ Oct 6 2010, 05:23 AM) *
Agreed.

Many focus on the flaws Tyson showed later in his career when talking about how he was in his younger. In his prime he had not lost his entire training camp, he had not had a divorce, he had never been to prison, never been that inactive and had never lost a fight. A young, prime Tyson didn't have all that stuff happen to him & didn't have shit to worry about when he was actually in his prime.

Tyson's flaws are mental, and they go back far beyond his years in the ring. To act as if Tyson's mental problems suddenly emerged with the firing of Kevin Rooney, or the deaths of Jim Jacobs and Cus D'Amoto previous to that, is just intellectually dishonest.

I think a more accurate statement would be to say, Tyson's weaknesses were not yet apparent nor were they obvious to the competition. But you can trace Tyson's mental weaknesses back to his amateur days. Extreme nervousness, even crying before fights. Getting owned by Holyfield in his amateur days stayed with him, well into the pros. His fear of tall rangy fighters was inherent early on as well. Cus D'Amoto had Tyson so convinced he couldn't handle George Foreman, that Tyson wanted nothing to do with Foreman, even the 900 year old grandpa version.

In fact, in regards to Foreman, I know Tyson was set to make a RIDICULOUS sum of money to fight Foreman, the most up to that point in his career. But Tyson just didn't want it. He blew up on his people, telling them they were stupid, that Foreman had them fooled with his sweet old man act, just like he'd fooled everyone else. But that he, Tyson, wasn't falling for it. And that if they, Tyson's people, wanted it so bad, they could go in there themselves and get killed.


As I said, Tyson's weaknesses weren't known to the comp, but they were well known by his own people. Now I really hate Teddy Atlas, because I think he has an agenda on just about everything, including Tyson. But I don't doubt his statements regarding Tyson's mental weakness as far as fighting goes. Shit about Tyson making non-aggression agreements with fighters late in fights and shit.

And finally, I just want to point out, I'm not debating anyone actually picking Tyson to beat either Klit. It is certainly possible, if not probable. But to act as if a young prime Tyson were suddenly flawless is revisionist history at its worst, and to pretend as if a fighter like Vitali Klitchsko would get murdered is conversely retarded. On size, strength, and awkward fighting style, I don't really see a fighter like Vitali getting murdered by anyone, except maybe perhaps a young George Foreman.
Warlord
QUOTE (Run and Gun Game Calls @ Oct 6 2010, 07:25 AM) *
I gotta disagree about vitalli even going the distance with tyson. Vitallis style isnt know for holding smaller fighters, and he has very little head movement, and he fights with his hands at his waste. I dont care how tough you care, you can have the best chin in the world, nobody could just stand in front of Tyson and let him tee off. Thats exactly what Vitalli would do. Yes Vitalli has guts, but like ruddock, around round 7 or 8 the big tree would fall.

Tyson has to get past that stiff jab first, brother, before he starts teeing off on anyone. Styles make fights, and Vitali's style would give Tyson fits, whatever version you're thinking of.
ROLL DEEP
I gotta agree with Warlord with the notion of Tyson's mental weakness being with him all his career.



Whether it was mental weakness or just mentally unstable, there was always something there. I suppose a whole series of events helped bring it out in the open for all to see, but it was definately lurking there since day 1.


sweetscientist1
QUOTE (ViperSniper @ Oct 6 2010, 06:23 AM) *
Agreed.

Many focus on the flaws Tyson showed later in his career when talking about how he was in his younger. In his prime he had not lost his entire training camp, he had not had a divorce, he had never been to prison, never been that inactive and had never lost a fight. A young, prime Tyson didn't have all that stuff happen to him & didn't have shit to worry about when he was actually in his prime.

Even against Douglas he was no longer in his prime but kept coming forward throwing punches even though he was getting a beating in the process.



Agreed.

Sure Holmes was no longer at his best but no one ever beat him the way Tyson did which makes the win pretty impressive. Holmes fought many years after wards against top young fighters and was never stopped again.

Tyson KO's Wlad early and unless Tyson stops Vitali on cuts, I'd lean towards a UD victory.

Let's be serious fellas. When it comes to Tyson vs Douglas it's all about the history ( the myth agreed upon). Tyson won that fight by an obvious KO. I still have a hole in my pocket from the easy 2k I laid down at the book! That was a real BS job by the ref! when douglas went down he was down for dam near 12 seconds. Please that was a shit job by the ref!
Run and Gun Game Calls
I realize Tyson had self confidence issues. To Be honest I dont think he ever really wanted to fight. I think he was just naturally good at it and was kinda pushed into it, even though it may not have been the path he wanted to take.

That being said, he (alot like Oliver McCall) really mentally broke down once he started hitting the coke pretty hard. That was after the spinks win.

You say Tyson would have to get past the jab, very true, but Vitally would have to keep tyson off with it too. And letys be honest, Vitalli has never faced a fighter with the aggression and ability of a young prime tyson
streetlion1
Yes! A prime Tyson would destroy these heavyweights. In his prime he had killer speed to go with his power....the Klitchko cunts wouldnt last more than 3 rounds and no other heavy would stand a chance. Really he would get ducked by nearly everyone.
JLUVBABY
i'm not too sure what the contraversy is here regarding tyson at his best, which was spinks and before... but a prime iron mike would completely dominate this crop of heavies... the klit sisters included tho i think vitali would be a lil more of a challenge... wlad would get dominated.. his chin most def wouldnt hold up... if wlad was ko'd by sanders and brewster, he'd be ko'd by prime iron mike... the issue may be that some of the posters here where not old enough or even born to realize or witness first hand what a phenom that iron mike was... i saw a post where someone mentioned what lennox lewis did to mike nd one of his mental weakness... when you discuss PRIME iron mike you have to realie his prime didnt reach into the 90's much less the 2000's.... the dude wanted to retire after the spinks fight and work on his marriage with then wife and gold digger robin givens... watch the post fight press conference im sure its on you tube it tells the whole story.... after spinks we never saw PRIME tyson ever again... it was a steady decline and he was only able to stay on top as long as he did after that and for a minute after his prison stint because of his mystique and the natural fear he put into fighters.... i can name several prime fighters tyson beat that would be CHAMP today and im speaking again of fighters a prime tyson beat... 88 and before... tony tubbs.... his boxing skills would frustrate the hell out of the klits... tony tucker, the one tyson beat would be hell for either klit.... buster douglas, yep that buster, at his best was a hell of a good fighter and your typical under achiever... he always had the skill but didnt always aply it... he put it all together one night when it counted... tyson took him lightly and he came more ready then he ever had before... but that douglas had the skill to beat these klits... the klits are not super champions... VITALI come closest and he's beatable, its just our urrent ranked contenders suck and he is slow compared to what would have been needed for a prime tyson... id loved to have seen these boys as rank contender in the early 90's... lol... tyson spanks them boys... wlad would probably be beat before he entered the ring...
King Eugene
I think we can all agree that Tyson would have smoked Wlad....................EASY!!!!
ViperSniper
QUOTE (Warlord @ Oct 6 2010, 12:32 PM) *
Tyson's flaws are mental, and they go back far beyond his years in the ring. To act as if Tyson's mental problems suddenly emerged with the firing of Kevin Rooney, or the deaths of Jim Jacobs and Cus D'Amoto previous to that, is just intellectually dishonest.

I think a more accurate statement would be to say, Tyson's weaknesses were not yet apparent nor were they obvious to the competition. But you can trace Tyson's mental weaknesses back to his amateur days. Extreme nervousness, even crying before fights. Getting owned by Holyfield in his amateur days stayed with him, well into the pros. His fear of tall rangy fighters was inherent early on as well. Cus D'Amoto had Tyson so convinced he couldn't handle George Foreman, that Tyson wanted nothing to do with Foreman, even the 900 year old grandpa version.

In fact, in regards to Foreman, I know Tyson was set to make a RIDICULOUS sum of money to fight Foreman, the most up to that point in his career. But Tyson just didn't want it. He blew up on his people, telling them they were stupid, that Foreman had them fooled with his sweet old man act, just like he'd fooled everyone else. But that he, Tyson, wasn't falling for it. And that if they, Tyson's people, wanted it so bad, they could go in there themselves and get killed.


As I said, Tyson's weaknesses weren't known to the comp, but they were well known by his own people. Now I really hate Teddy Atlas, because I think he has an agenda on just about everything, including Tyson. But I don't doubt his statements regarding Tyson's mental weakness as far as fighting goes. Shit about Tyson making non-aggression agreements with fighters late in fights and shit.

And finally, I just want to point out, I'm not debating anyone actually picking Tyson to beat either Klit. It is certainly possible, if not probable. But to act as if a young prime Tyson were suddenly flawless is revisionist history at its worst, and to pretend as if a fighter like Vitali Klitchsko would get murdered is conversely retarded. On size, strength, and awkward fighting style, I don't really see a fighter like Vitali getting murdered by anyone, except maybe perhaps a young George Foreman.


Nice to know I don't fall into those bolded categories lol.

Agree with where your getting at. I'm aware the guy has always had issues growing up, and am very aware Tyson doubted him self very much when starting out also. Sure he could get frustrated or even discouraged, but so have dozens of other greats but I don't recall those things getting the best of him when he was younger like to the extent he showed later in his career. What I'm getting at is he didn't show these signs inside the ring as he did later on in his career because he didn't experience the things I listed in my previous post.

Vitali has also gotta keep him off with that jab as it works both ways which is the beauty of talking mythical match-ups. Not sayin Tyson was the perfect fighter or unbeatable in his prime but I don't think a prime Tyson showed many fundamental flaws at all and would pick him against many Heavyweights of the past. Vitali has never faced someone that resembles Tyson as I think with his size, bobbin n weaving from the jab his constant pressure would close that gap and cause the big bro trouble.
Warlord
QUOTE (ViperSniper @ Oct 7 2010, 03:09 AM) *
Nice to know I don't fall into those bolded categories lol.

Agree with where your getting at. I'm aware the guy has always had issues growing up, and am very aware Tyson doubted him self very much when starting out also. Sure he could get frustrated or even discouraged, but so have dozens of other greats but I don't recall those things getting the best of him when he was younger like to the extent he showed later in his career. What I'm getting at is he didn't show these signs inside the ring as he did later on in his career because he didn't experience the things I listed in my previous post.

Vitali has also gotta keep him off with that jab as it works both ways which is the beauty of talking mythical match-ups. Not sayin Tyson was the perfect fighter or unbeatable in his prime but I don't think a prime Tyson showed many fundamental flaws at all and would pick him against many Heavyweights of the past. Vitali has never faced someone that resembles Tyson as I think with his size, bobbin n weaving from the jab his constant pressure would close that gap and cause the big bro trouble.

Hey, I agree 100%. Prime Tyson was a special fighter. But he did have flaws, and Older Klit's style alone would pose all kinds of problems for Tyson.

My only beef was with people thinking it would somehow be an easy fight for Tyson, or that he could blow Vitali out inside of 3 rounds. Just complete and utter horseshit, in my opinion.

It is a sad state of affairs in boxing when Tony Tucker suddenly becomes a litmus test on how awesome the fighter you support is. (I mean you in the collective, general sense of the word, not you specifically, Viper.)


Anyway, just a partial list of tall, rangy fighters that Tyson has faced over his career.

Mitch Green - 6"5 (Win, UD)
Jose Ribalta - 6"5 (Win, TKO 10)
James "Bonecrusher" Smith - 6"4 (Win, UD 12)
Tony Tucker - 6"5 (Win, UD)
James "Buster" Douglas - 6"4 (Loss, KO10)
Lennox Lewis - 6"5 (Loss, KO8)
Kevin McBride - 6"6 (Loss, TKO6)

Again, it is just a myth to assume Tyson wouldn't, or didn't, struggle with taller fighters. That has ALWAYS been the case, even early on in Tyson's career. Before Mitch Green, Tyson had only gone beyond the 6th round ONCE. And that was with "Quick" Tillis.


In addition, that straight up-and-down euro-style also gave Tyson fits, because it relies so heavily on straight, stiff jabs. Primarily because a straight, stiff jab has always been bad medicine for squat, compact fighters like a 5'10 Mike Tyson.

Frank Bruno, God bless him, even managed to buzz Tyson with that same fighting style, and he'd done shit himself before even getting in the ring.

I won't even bother mentioning the other instances Tyson matched up with that style (Lewis, Williamz) because those fights too late in his career anyway.

But I think my point stands. Tyson, even if is/were the favorite in the mythical match-up, is by no means a lock to beat Vitali. And it's ridiculous to hear people claiming Vitali would get murdered or finished within 3. There is no factual evidence or past performances to indicate such a result.

King Eugene
I dont think Tyson would murder Vitali. Hell I dont think any of the past heavyweights would murder Vitali. He'd be a force during any era but I still think Tyson beats him easy. Not by KO but wide decision. Yes Tyson had a tougher time with taller guys but its not like he still didn't manage to dominate them in his prime. IMO Vitali would have heard the last bell but the fight wouldn't have been that close. He probably would have won 2-3 rounds.....4 tops.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (Warlord @ Oct 7 2010, 03:02 AM) *
Hey, I agree 100%. Prime Tyson was a special fighter. But he did have flaws, and Older Klit's style alone would pose all kinds of problems for Tyson.

My only beef was with people thinking it would somehow be an easy fight for Tyson, or that he could blow Vitali out inside of 3 rounds. Just complete and utter horseshit, in my opinion.

It is a sad state of affairs in boxing when Tony Tucker suddenly becomes a litmus test on how awesome the fighter you support is. (I mean you in the collective, general sense of the word, not you specifically, Viper.)


Anyway, just a partial list of tall, rangy fighters that Tyson has faced over his career.

Mitch Green - 6"5 (Win, UD)
Jose Ribalta - 6"5 (Win, TKO 10)
James "Bonecrusher" Smith - 6"4 (Win, UD 12)
Tony Tucker - 6"5 (Win, UD)
James "Buster" Douglas - 6"4 (Loss, KO10)
Lennox Lewis - 6"5 (Loss, KO8)
Kevin McBride - 6"6 (Loss, TKO6)

Again, it is just a myth to assume Tyson wouldn't, or didn't, struggle with taller fighters. That has ALWAYS been the case, even early on in Tyson's career. Before Mitch Green, Tyson had only gone beyond the 6th round ONCE. And that was with "Quick" Tillis.


In addition, that straight up-and-down euro-style also gave Tyson fits, because it relies so heavily on straight, stiff jabs. Primarily because a straight, stiff jab has always been bad medicine for squat, compact fighters like a 5'10 Mike Tyson.

Frank Bruno, God bless him, even managed to buzz Tyson with that same fighting style, and he'd done shit himself before even getting in the ring.

I won't even bother mentioning the other instances Tyson matched up with that style (Lewis, Williamz) because those fights too late in his career anyway.

But I think my point stands. Tyson, even if is/were the favorite in the mythical match-up, is by no means a lock to beat Vitali. And it's ridiculous to hear people claiming Vitali would get murdered or finished within 3. There is no factual evidence or past performances to indicate such a result.


As the thread is discussing 'Prime Tyson' we are talking the Tyson up to Spinks period. After that nothing else matters. He went the distance with Tillis, Smith and Green but hardly struggled with them either. If struggling means going the distance then the Klits have 'struggled' plenty as well.

I'm actually going to respectfully disagree with the Tucker insult. I think a prime Tony Tucker beats Wlad and gives Vitali all he could handle. Tucker was very very underrated, by himself even laugh.gif

As for the jab Biggs had a pretty good jab and he dismantled that with ease. I like Mike to win handily on points against Vitali and we can all agree what happens with Wlad.
JD
Mike Tyson was always a front-runner...and he was always mentally weak, you just needed to be capable (mentally and physically) to bring it out in him.

When you have the benefit of hindsight, it is best to use it.

The question is whether or not Wlad or Vitali would have the ability to bring it out in him.
gravytrain
If Tyson goes the distance with Vitali there's no way Tyson doesn't win on points, especially if the fight is in America. Unless Vitali totally whoops his ass for 12 rounds straight Tyson will get the nod.

The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (JD @ Oct 7 2010, 06:54 AM) *
Mike Tyson was always a front-runner...[b]and he was always mentally weak[/b], you just needed to be capable (mentally and physically) to bring it out in him.

When you have the benefit of hindsight, it is best to use it.

The question is whether or not Wlad or Vitali would have the ability to bring it out in him.


But this was really only known to his inner inner circle and even now you'll hear guys like Steve Lott disagree with Teddy Atlas as to the extent of Mike's mental foilbles at the start and prime of his career. What do we really have to go on? A few shots of a young Mike getting emotional before a fight and Atlas himself.

A lot of others in the Tyson camp, and even after they have been brutally disposed of with nothing to lose, Lott, Rooney, Cayton don't point to the same weaknesses that Atlas does but Atlas is held up as an authority on the subject. Why is that?

And if we address those weaknesses we can see that it was a gradual decline from the Bruno fight, to Douglas to Ruddock and then Holyfield before complete capitulation against Lewis and then finally (urgh!) McBride. It's not as though Mike went from a prime version of himself to total mellowpuff in one fight.

And as this discussion is about an unbeaten prime Tyson I don't see him folding over in a tough fight against Vitali.

Let's be real it took probably a decade and a half for all Mike's weaknesss to be exposed and in that time he himself had practically given up on boxing and his only habits were seriously bad ones. The thread topic is how a prime Tyson would fare right now and some guys are basically intimating that Vitali would cause prime Mike to stop and potentially have a breakdown in the ring or just quit and take a beating.

Prime unbeaten Tyson? no-way.
JD
Regardless who brought it out, it was always there. It just needed to be brought out. We know it exists, and Tyson admitted it was always an issue - he just masked it so well by going in there and abusing dudes.

I tend to think neither of the Klitschkos could bring it out, but that's just my opinion. Stylistically I see issues for him in either fight...but it doesn't mean I would pick against him.
ROLL DEEP
Saying Tyson would have Vitali out of there in 3 rounds is crazy.


When assessing these mythical match ups you have to use evidence of what you've seen from the fighters. You can't use anything else. You have to leave your likes and dislikes for the different fighters out of it.


When has Vitali ever crumbled in less than 3 rounds and when has Tyson made easy work of a TALL fighter with great skills?

Never and never.





SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (JD @ Oct 7 2010, 07:54 AM) *
Mike Tyson was always a front-runner...and he was always mentally weak, you just needed to be capable (mentally and physically) to bring it out in him.

When you have the benefit of hindsight, it is best to use it.

The question is whether or not Wlad or Vitali would have the ability to bring it out in him.

The very same thing could be applied to many boxers who were nearly unbeatable in their primes.

QUOTE (JD @ Oct 7 2010, 08:18 AM) *
Regardless who brought it out, it was always there. It just needed to be brought out. We know it exists, and Tyson admitted it was always an issue - he just masked it so well by going in there and abusing dudes.

I tend to think neither of the Klitschkos could bring it out, but that's just my opinion. Stylistically I see issues for him in either fight...but it doesn't mean I would pick against him.

Foreman is the most obvious example of a fighter who was always mentally flawed but was simply unbeatable at his best. Foreman at his best v any heavy in history seeks and destroys utterly.

Tyson was always vulnerable if not at top form. At top form he beats nearly every boxer in history at their top forms. By that measure he defeats both of The Sisters.

QUOTE (ROLL DEEP @ Oct 7 2010, 10:29 AM) *
Saying Tyson would have Vitali out of there in 3 rounds is crazy.


When assessing these mythical match ups you have to use evidence of what you've seen from the fighters. You can't use anything else. You have to leave your likes and dislikes for the different fighters out of it.


When has Vitali ever crumbled in less than 3 rounds and when has Tyson made easy work of a TALL fighter with great skills?

Never and never.

I agree.

Tyson v The Sisters (prime v prime) is victorious. Doesn't mean it would be easy, though. Especially v Vitali.

Run and Gun Game Calls
Call Mentally weak all ya want. In the loss to dougles, he took a severe beating. Aside from almost pulling out the win, he kept coming forward. Even when he went down, he was grasping at his mouthpiece and trying to get up to continue fighting.

Seemed very mentally tough, with cast iron balls in that fight to me
JD
Tyson had a very underrated chin...and after being overrated historically became very underrated.

His career was an interesting one to look at...and yes SmartyB, there are multiple fighters we learned a lot about over time an can apply hindsight to. For whatever reason, it seems as though Tyson is the most glaring case, and a good portion of that may be the extreme nature of his career.

What I wouldn't give for the second coming of him right now.
BGv2.0
Prime Mike really does eat up this division....IMHO MUCH easier than he did in the 80's.

Berbeck, Thomas, Green, Spinks, Smith, Bruno, etc.

ALL of these guys have more talent and ability than most of the guys in the top ten today.

Taking a look over the top ten...the only two that could simply stay in with a prime Tyson are of course both Klit brothers. To a lesser degree Valuev too..but only due to his freak show size...I still think he gets chopped down.

NOW...I say that they could simply hang in there due to the fact that taller fighters were ALWAYS a problem for Mike...even in his prime.

Smith, Tucker, and even Rudduck are prime examples of how taller fighters could at the very least stay in with him until the end.

I think the Klits would do the same.

I think there would be a greater chance for a stoppage with Wlad of course due to his known and well documented chin issues. Vitali on the other hand I could see staying around late...but I REALLY do not see his face holding up.

Bottom line....I think a PRIME Mike Tyson takes the Klits hearts and eats their children.

With a clear stoppage over Wlad either early or late.....and a clean late stoppage due to cuts OR clear UD over Vitali.
Run and Gun Game Calls
Its amazing how people forget how good a young mike tyson really was
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (Run and Gun Game Calls @ Oct 7 2010, 01:58 PM) *
Its amazing how people forget how good a young mike tyson really was


And I also love how because he didn't knock out Green, Smith etc that constitutes him having 'problems' with them. I guess that means PBF had 'problems' with JMM laugh.gif
gravytrain
QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ Oct 7 2010, 03:43 PM) *
And I also love how because he didn't knock out Green, Smith etc that constitutes him having 'problems' with them. I guess that means PBF had 'problems' with JMM laugh.gif


We Americans learned quite some time ago that a determined Mexican will give you all you can handle. No fence, desert, or sassy black man can stop them.

STEVENSKI
QUOTE (Run and Gun Game Calls @ Oct 7 2010, 07:56 AM) *
And letys be honest, Vitalli has never faced a fighter with the aggression and ability of a young prime tyson


Tyson has never faced a fighter with the combination of skills, power & toughness that Vitali has & won either.

Tyson has always had serious confidence & mental issues. It is not like he just suddenly became this guy with no confidence & self belief. It was always there & studying the way that Vitali methodically beats guys into submission would create a element of fear for Mike.

By no means do I think Vitali would waste Mike but I don't think it is as one sided as some would like to believe.
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