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BigG
Where do you think these guys rate P4P? I've seen different posters rate Wlad in the top 10 and personally I've never thought they deserved to be P4P because theres just too much talent in the lower weights, and better P4P fighters than the Klitschko's. But Wlad has been champ for a long time and has beaten all contenders except Vitali, Amaek and Haye. And he has been dominant..he hasn't lost a round since the first Peter fight. I'm not the biggest fan of the brothers but they are very impressive in this weak era and I believe they would beat alot of great Heavyweights....(not Holmes, Ali, and Tyson). Where do you rank them?
ROLL DEEP
If their height converted well, meaning that they were still head and shoulders above the others, then yeah, you gotta rank them highly.


They use their reach and height so well.



Although not the most exciting fighters to some, they are pretty much the complete package for a fighter. They're tall, decent power, awkward, pretty quick, athletic, put together punches well, Vitali has a decent chin, so it's hard to argue otherwise.



Regardless of what the divison is like now, pretty much any heavyweight ever would struggle because of the above assets they have.
D-MARV
Anyone who doesn't consider the Klitschkos as pound for pound players is an idiot.
Big Slim Sweet
Which one ranks higher?

If you combined them into one guy, then yeah, you'd have to have them up there right now. BUT - the fact remains they won't fight each other for division dominance. Take out the fact that they're brothers for a second. That's an inexcusable offense, isn't it?

I'm not saying they should fight or that they need to fight or that I even necessarily want them to fight. I get why they won't. But refusing to do so kind of takes away a bit from each one's individual legacy, IMO.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (D-MARV @ Oct 19 2010, 11:15 AM) *
Anyone who doesn't consider the Klitschkos as pound for pound players is an idiot.


i dont ness. agree with this statement D... reason is because in my opinion if you compare the quality of fighters they have to face currently, which isnt their fault i understand that, they should be cleaning these guys clocks.... EARLY... Mike Tyson said of Toney Tubbs after their fight during his interview which to me sums up what these guys should be doing to their comp.... Mike said, and i quote almost verbatim... "I did to this guy what I was supposed to do with a guy of his caliber and his shape".... With that said the Klits. are fighting guys that are afraid of them mostly.. and the ones that arent have no hope anyway... they should be getting their opponents out of there sooner.... in my opinion... P4P put them in with a mayweather or a hopkins or a ward and these guys are getting busted up and im sure i could name another 7 or 8 maybe more guys that beat them P4P... If they where getting these no hopers out of there like their size and punching power they both possess dictates they should then I would have no problem ranking both of them in the top 10... from what i've seen of these two guys they would be contenders only in the early to mid 90's through the end of lewis's prime... they are good, but not that good... and like i said in another post with there being two of them they are fighting the contenders that best compliment their styles... like i said wlad fought thompson... thompson would have given vitali a much stiffer test... vitali fought arreola... arreola fat and all with his style would have had a better chance vs wlad... im not knocking them id do the same just saying... with that said i have no problem with someone ranking them in theier top 10 but to call someone idiots for not.... naw man thats a stretch cuzz i can see the logic in why they wouldnt....
STEVENSKI
They are both legit bad men. They don't lay people out like Lewis did but they are somehow worse with the methodical & merciless way they beat their opponents. They literally beat them to pulp & that is far scarier than getting bashed for a couple of rounds & getting laid out cold.
gravytrain
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Oct 19 2010, 07:36 PM) *
i dont ness. agree with this statement D... reason is because in my opinion if you compare the quality of fighters they have to face currently, which isnt their fault i understand that, they should be cleaning these guys clocks.... EARLY... Mike Tyson said of Toney Tubbs after their fight during his interview which to me sums up what these guys should be doing to their comp.... Mike said, and i quote almost verbatim... "I did to this guy what I was supposed to do with a guy of his caliber and his shape".... With that said the Klits. are fighting guys that are afraid of them mostly.. and the ones that arent have no hope anyway... they should be getting their opponents out of there sooner.... in my opinion... P4P put them in with a mayweather or a hopkins or a ward and these guys are getting busted up and im sure i could name another 7 or 8 maybe more guys that beat them P4P... If they where getting these no hopers out of there like their size and punching power they both possess dictates they should then I would have no problem ranking both of them in the top 10... from what i've seen of these two guys they would be contenders only in the early to mid 90's through the end of lewis's prime... they are good, but not that good... and like i said in another post with there being two of them they are fighting the contenders that best compliment their styles... like i said wlad fought thompson... thompson would have given vitali a much stiffer test... vitali fought arreola... arreola fat and all with his style would have had a better chance vs wlad... im not knocking them id do the same just saying... with that said i have no problem with someone ranking them in theier top 10 but to call someone idiots for not.... naw man thats a stretch cuzz i can see the logic in why they wouldnt....


That's my only beef with them. I think of them kind of like Joe Louis. Joe Louis fought in a weak era and often overmatched his opponents[bum of the month club]. If Joe Louis jabbed cats for 12 rounds he wouldn't have the same reputation.

I just really hate to see two guys who are really superior in every way to their opponents letting the guy off the hook. I'm sure someone will say that Wlad just wants to bust guys up with the jab first then get the kayo but that's not the case, every fight I've watched of his Steward is always yelling at him to finish the fight. If Steward wasn't in his corner yelling at him do you think he'd go for that kayo or stoppage?
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Oct 19 2010, 07:01 PM) *
They are both legit bad men. They don't lay people out like Lewis did but they are somehow worse with the methodical & merciless way they beat their opponents. They literally beat them to pulp & that is far scarier than getting bashed for a couple of rounds & getting laid out cold.


they are both just as capable of laying guys out like lewis did and the fact is they are fighting more inferior fighters than lewis fought and still not closing the show... or if they do it takes 10 rounds most of the time, of constant clubbing away at their opponent... the greats ended the show and didnt let inferior opponents lay around.... they got them out of there...
The Original MrFactor
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Oct 19 2010, 09:16 PM) *
they are both just as capable of laying guys out like lewis did and the fact is they are fighting more inferior fighters than lewis fought and still not closing the show... or if they do it takes 10 rounds most of the time, of constant clubbing away at their opponent... the greats ended the show and didnt let inferior opponents lay around.... they got them out of there...



Thats holding the Klits to a different standard than their contemporaries. Mayweather doesn't KO dudes like Tyson either. Dudes that he should be stopping, he doesnt. JMM and Baldomir come to mind. Hopkins was in the top 10 as well and wasn't exactly known for stopping guys like Tyson did. The Klits are methodical plodders, but they are very good at what they do. Unless one of them absolutely slips off his game, I dont see them losing for the next few years. Both guys may retire as Champ. That would say alot. They have dominated their era's competition. As Champs, both have rarely lost a round. They are great. Their only crime to the American boxing public is that they are not from a ranch in Montana.
pesticid
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Oct 19 2010, 09:16 PM) *
they are both just as capable of laying guys out like lewis did and the fact is they are fighting more inferior fighters than lewis fought and still not closing the show... or if they do it takes 10 rounds most of the time, of constant clubbing away at their opponent... the greats ended the show and didnt let inferior opponents lay around.... they got them out of there...


I'd disagree here, Lennox has had many more dull decision victories than Vitaly. He may have fought in a slightly better era but he also got knocked out cold by C-level fighters. Knockout isn't everything even though Vitaly has the highers %. What's astonishing is that he is winning every second of every fight of his and even in losing his two fights he was winning prior to the injuries. You think of great heavyweights that have lost, they have been knocked out or brutally beaten and not always by top fighters, now the case with Vitaly and yeah I know about the Byrd fight and lennox caching him in the eye with the side of the glove. Fact is Vitaly wasn't lucky to get a rematch with either Byrd and Lennox to prove his mettle, while Lewis did.
Warlord
QUOTE (The Original MrFactor @ Oct 19 2010, 09:58 PM) *
Thats holding the Klits to a different standard than their contemporaries. Mayweather doesn't KO dudes like Tyson either. Dudes that he should be stopping, he doesnt. JMM and Baldomir come to mind. Hopkins was in the top 10 as well and wasn't exactly known for stopping guys like Tyson did. The Klits are methodical plodders, but they are very good at what they do. Unless one of them absolutely slips off his game, I dont see them losing for the next few years. Both guys may retire as Champ. That would say alot. They have dominated their era's competition. As Champs, both have rarely lost a round. They are great. Their only crime to the American boxing public is that they are not from a ranch in Montana.

Or loud mouth wanna-be thugs with daddy issues who beat their wives, girl friends, ex-girlfriends, kids, etc...
pesticid
Hopkins had the like the weakest 20 title defenses won in a most horrid fashion and he's a living legend, meanwhile the Klitchkos are just in a bad era and even though they almost kill their opponents in the ring, they suck.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (pesticid @ Oct 19 2010, 09:03 PM) *
I'd disagree here, Lennox has had many more dull decision victories than Vitaly. He may have fought in a slightly better era but he also got knocked out cold by C-level fighters. Knockout isn't everything even though Vitaly has the highers %. What's astonishing is that he is winning every second of every fight of his and even in losing his two fights he was winning prior to the injuries. You think of great heavyweights that have lost, they have been knocked out or brutally beaten and not always by top fighters, now the case with Vitaly and yeah I know about the Byrd fight and lennox caching him in the eye with the side of the glove. Fact is Vitaly wasn't lucky to get a rematch with either Byrd and Lennox to prove his mettle, while Lewis did.


wlad has been knocked out twice by lesser opponents than prime rahman and mccall... vitali is tough as nails but fact is he hasnt fought the few contenders that would expose his weakness... speed will kill that dude... mix in a punch and he's in trouble... i agree with you to an extent but that lewis fight we will never know... yes he was doing his thing but at the time of the stoppage lewis did appear to be getting to him... and we are speaking of a past prime more than likely under trained lewis that was getting ready for kirk johnson... remember that.... and he still had enough to weather what vitali had to offer and show that he COULD come on... preach to the choir man them brothers need defining fights...
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (The Original MrFactor @ Oct 19 2010, 08:58 PM) *
Thats holding the Klits to a different standard than their contemporaries. Mayweather doesn't KO dudes like Tyson either. Dudes that he should be stopping, he doesnt. JMM and Baldomir come to mind. Hopkins was in the top 10 as well and wasn't exactly known for stopping guys like Tyson did. The Klits are methodical plodders, but they are very good at what they do. Unless one of them absolutely slips off his game, I dont see them losing for the next few years. Both guys may retire as Champ. That would say alot. They have dominated their era's competition. As Champs, both have rarely lost a round. They are great. Their only crime to the American boxing public is that they are not from a ranch in Montana.


what mayweather does at 147 is box and use ring generalship cuzz he doesnt feel confident in his punching power at the higher weight... he didnt carry his punch up with him... go back and look at his fights at 130... he was knocking cats out.... the klits have the size and the power to put the guys to sleep yet for some reason they are not doing it... and if they do its taking them damn near a full fight... just saying... they are not show closers... the heavyweight champ is supposed to be the guy thats sending us home early... except for a few exceptions in heavyweight history thats been the case, the heavyweight champ blows out the bums (and these guys have been fighting nothing but bums cuzz thats all they have for the most part in the division right now)... even ali who is not considered a pure puncher did a better job of stopping top flight opponents and closing the show like what a heavy weight champ is expected to do and he fought better comp than these guys... that has to count for something....
gravytrain
If Wlad and Vitali were two 6'2" 210 lb guys who lacked power nobody would be criticizing them, they're not though. They're big, strong, and have shown time and time again that they can take you out if they want to. They set themselves up for criticism.

JLUVBABY
QUOTE (gravytrain @ Oct 19 2010, 11:52 PM) *
If Wlad and Vitali were two 6'2" 210 lb guys who lacked power nobody would be criticizing them, they're not though. They're big, strong, and have shown time and time again that they can take you out if they want to. They set themselves up for criticism.


THANK YOU...
Fitz
QUOTE (Big Slim Sweet @ Oct 20 2010, 04:25 AM) *
Which one ranks higher?

If you combined them into one guy, then yeah, you'd have to have them up there right now. BUT - the fact remains they won't fight each other for division dominance. Take out the fact that they're brothers for a second. That's an inexcusable offense, isn't it?

I'm not saying they should fight or that they need to fight or that I even necessarily want them to fight. I get why they won't. But refusing to do so kind of takes away a bit from each one's individual legacy, IMO.


I see what you are saying Slim, but I don't think the fact they are brothers can be ignored.

I don't think it takes away from each others legacy either. I suppose it depends on how you look at it. I think it can be looked at in two ways:

  1. The best fighters in the divisison won't fight each other, which should never happen
  2. They are the only good fighters in the shit division, a win for either will be a good win over a good fighter, but because of the circumstances, they will never get that chance at having a good win on their resume that will do them justice.


I don't think reason one will be held against them. Though I can see reason 2 being something that takes away from their legacy. I have always thought that the heavyweight division now are holding the Klitschko's back. I think they are better than they are given credit for, just because the rest of the division make them look bad. I think if they fought in a different era, they would probably be more respected, because we would see that they could do more than just hold their own against good opposition.
There just haven't been any good fighters, so they don't have that guy on their resume for them to look good. So I suppose if you look at it that they are the only two good guys, perhaps if it was possible for them to fight each other, it would be a win against a good opposition, so they get their credit. That will not happen, so I think it can hurt them that way, because they just won't get appreciated.
I don't look at it as a way as the two guys refusing to fight each other (like Pacquiao-Mayweather). I know you don't think that either, I just though that the 'hurt their legacy' argument could be looked at in two different ways.
Fitz
That said, I probably don't consider Vitali p4p yet, though I think Wlad is p4p.

I think it comes down to opinion, I can see how someone could have Wlad just outside, or vice versa. I definitely wouldn't rule him out of p4p though.
gravytrain
QUOTE (Fitz @ Oct 20 2010, 01:50 AM) *
That said, I probably don't consider Vitali p4p yet, though I think Wlad is p4p.

I think it comes down to opinion, I can see how someone could have Wlad just outside, or vice versa. I definitely wouldn't rule him out of p4p though.


I actually think more of Vitali than Wlad. Vitali has dominated guys that have gave Wlad trouble, in my opinion he could have beat Lewis if not for the cut, and his only losses are from retiring from a fight due to torn rotator cuff and the cut vs Lewis.

And I think if these two weren't related Vitali would be holding every belt other than Haye's.
BigG
The way I look at it..if Fernando Montiel, Nontio Donaire were in the same weight class as the Klitschko's..Montiel and Donaire would kill both of them. I think they are better boxers. Just my opinion.
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Oct 20 2010, 03:12 PM) *
... even ali who is not considered a pure puncher did a better job of stopping top flight opponents and closing the show like what a heavy weight champ is expected to do and he fought better comp than these guys... that has to count for something....


It does. Look at how Clay is nowdays. He sure is sharp & still had the shuffle at the 96 Olympics. Somehow I doubt either brother will end up with their brains mush. Boxing is the art of hitting & not getting hit & that is exactly what they do. They happen to do it very well.

Boxing is not about knocking your opponent out it is about winninng more rounds than they do & if it happens you may get a KO.
The Ollie Reed Fan Club
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Oct 20 2010, 02:33 AM) *
It does. Look at how Clay is nowdays. He sure is sharp & still had the shuffle at the 96 Olympics. Somehow I doubt either brother will end up with their brains mush. Boxing is the art of hitting & not getting hit & that is exactly what they do. They happen to do it very well.

Boxing is not about knocking your opponent out it is about winninng more rounds than they do & if it happens you may get a KO.


Clay used to spar without headgear and boxed on way too long. He also faced some monsters in Norton and Foreman that the brothers will not have to encounter. Ali's condition has little to do with how many guys he knocked out Steve and you know it. I think you may just be baiting our American bretheran laugh.gif
Fitz
QUOTE (gravytrain @ Oct 20 2010, 05:15 PM) *
I actually think more of Vitali than Wlad. Vitali has dominated guys that have gave Wlad trouble, in my opinion he could have beat Lewis if not for the cut, and his only losses are from retiring from a fight due to torn rotator cuff and the cut vs Lewis.

And I think if these two weren't related Vitali would be holding every belt other than Haye's.


With me, I did rate Vitali higher than Wlad. I think Vitali is more of a fighter than Wlad, he is more game, and tougher. Though I think I give Wlad the edge in the skills department, I think he is slightly better skilled than Vitali.
I only rate Wlad higher now on a p4p list because I think he has done more. Unfortunately, with my p4p list, I pretty much ignored what Vitali did before he retired, so I look at it from then.

Vitali: After retirement
Peter (WBC title that Vitali got for being a 'Super champion' before he retired)
Gomez
Arreola
Johnson
Sonowski
Briggs

Wlad: Since Vitali retired
Castillo
Peter
Byrd (to become IBF champion)
Brock
Austin
Brewster
Ibragimov (claimed the WBO title and unified)
Thompson
Rahman
Chagaev
Chambers
Peter

That's the only reason I have Wlad higher than Vitali. I don't think much separates them as fighters, I just think Wlad has done quite a bit more, against more opposition, better opposition and has unified. Wlad took over during the time Vitali was retired.
Also interesting about the point you bring up about Vitali beating some guys more clearly than Wlad. Not wrong there. Though I remember before Vitali retired, Vitali pulled out of a fight about 3-4 times with Rahman due to injury? In the end, some people implied that Vitali feared him. It didn't look good for Vitali, but I always found it strange, as I always thought Vitali would have made Rahman become another knockout highlight reel, lol.

Now onto the mythical match up. If they weren't brothers? I don't know, never really thought about if they weren't brothers, though I do think Wlad is more polished as a fighter, but like I said earlier, Vitali seems more game.
The scenario I have thought about in a mythical match up is if they actually did fight (as brothers), that Vitali wins. I just think Vitali is mentally tougher than Wlad, and Wlad seems to have a bit more bitch in him, and I could see him almost having a submissive mind against the bigger and older brother. Sometimes dad's have that effect on sons. Just that psychological edge that he probably always had when they were growing up, and I think it would play a factor, especially the type of people they seem to be. They don't strike me as a family that have full on fights, they look like they love each other, so I think that submissive mentality would always be with Wlad, and big brother would always have it over him, lol.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Oct 20 2010, 01:33 AM) *
It does. Look at how Clay is nowdays. He sure is sharp & still had the shuffle at the 96 Olympics. Somehow I doubt either brother will end up with their brains mush. Boxing is the art of hitting & not getting hit & that is exactly what they do. They happen to do it very well.

Boxing is not about knocking your opponent out it is about winninng more rounds than they do & if it happens you may get a KO.


i understand the fact that you are a fan of the two brothers, so am i, but they are not the great champions one would like to believe.... both are very beatable...
gbh32001
Klitchko's are best boxing sportsman, but to include them in P4P list is a joke to me.
King Eugene
With Vitali's style, size(meaning he'd be a lot bigger than most opposition in any weight class), timing, and grit to fight he'd probably be dominant at any division. He's not the fastest but he has precision timing. He uses his size very well(which I wish PWill would do) and takes full advantage of his reach. He might be very beatable but haven't a soul proved it.
Fitz
QUOTE (King Eugene @ Oct 20 2010, 10:43 PM) *
With Vitali's style, size(meaning he'd be a lot bigger than most opposition in any weight class), timing, and grit to fight he'd probably be dominant at any division. He's not the fastest but he has precision timing. He uses his size very well(which I wish PWill would do) and takes full advantage of his reach. He might be very beatable but haven't a soul proved it.


I agree. Especially about the size advantage he would always have against majority regardless on a p4p scale.
SmartyBeardo
QUOTE (King Eugene @ Oct 20 2010, 04:43 AM) *
With Vitali's style, size(meaning he'd be a lot bigger than most opposition in any weight class), timing, and grit to fight he'd probably be dominant at any division. He's not the fastest but he has precision timing. He uses his size very well(which I wish PWill would do) and takes full advantage of his reach. He might be very beatable but haven't a soul proved it.

I have to disagree with you, KE. But, I'm not sure I understand exactly what you are saying. That is the problem with putting HWs in the P4P mix.

Are you suggesting that Big Sister be considered at his same height and speed transposed to the different weights? I don't think you are because if that were the case the older Klit would stand no chance in any other weight class, with the exception of Cruiser. He would be cut down like an unhealthy tree.

But, even if you meant that he would be the second or third tallest in every division, I can't see him being the #1 guy in most of them. There is just too much worthy top level competition in most of the divisions. He would be out-boxed and punished in most other divisions, the same way he would be if he was somehow dropped into the 70s HW Div mix.

This is not meant as a put down to Big Sis. Marciano, Louis, Tyson and Lewis would have suffered the same fate in that time warp.

IMO, Big Klit would not be more than top 5 in any division 168 down.

That does not matter though. It also does not matter what would have happened to him in the 70s. He is the King of the HW hill in this era. Nobody can take that away from him (not even his brother) anymore than they can take away that fact about Jack Johnson, Louis, Marciano, Ali, or Holmes.

He would KO Wlad like a tuna on a boat deck, BTW.
gravytrain
QUOTE (STEVENSKI @ Oct 20 2010, 02:33 AM) *
It does. Look at how Clay is nowdays. He sure is sharp & still had the shuffle at the 96 Olympics. Somehow I doubt either brother will end up with their brains mush. Boxing is the art of hitting & not getting hit & that is exactly what they do. They happen to do it very well.

Boxing is not about knocking your opponent out it is about winninng more rounds than they do & if it happens you may get a KO.



Every sport with physical contact has a risk/reward element to it. Ali took the risks, became one of the most famous men ever to walk the earth, entertained the world for years, raised awareness about social issues, and had a billion people watching him fight Foreman alone. I remember reading about someone asking "was it worth it?" to Ali and Ali replied "I would have just been a sign painter in Louisville, Kentucky.".

There are vast differences between hitting and not getting hit and letting guys that wont even hit you stick around with you for 12 rounds. You're not going to build any legacy by doing that. It'd be like thinking Michael Jordan would be in the position he's in if he coasted, scored on some layups, and sat out if he felt a little sick.
pesticid
QUOTE (gravytrain @ Oct 20 2010, 01:48 PM) *
Every sport with physical contact has a risk/reward element to it. Ali took the risks, became one of the most famous men ever to walk the earth, entertained the world for years, raised awareness about social issues, and had a billion people watching him fight Foreman alone. I remember reading about someone asking "was it worth it?" to Ali and Ali replied "I would have just been a sign painter in Louisville, Kentucky.".

There are vast differences between hitting and not getting hit and letting guys that wont even hit you stick around with you for 12 rounds. You're not going to build any legacy by doing that. It'd be like thinking Michael Jordan would be in the position he's in if he coasted, scored on some layups, and sat out if he felt a little sick.


Yeah but how many guys like that that did Lennox fool around without even hurting them bad, thining of Tua and the Croatian guy. How many guys did Larry Holmes did not finish either? I mean why do they get a pass and Vitaly doesn't when only 3 fighters have made it to the final round?
gravytrain
QUOTE (pesticid @ Oct 20 2010, 02:03 PM) *
Yeah but how many guys like that that did Lennox fool around without even hurting them bad, thining of Tua and the Croatian guy. How many guys did Larry Holmes did not finish either? I mean why do they get a pass and Vitaly doesn't when only 3 fighters have made it to the final round?


I haven't given them a pass, this is just about the Klits and the possibility of them being P4P fighters.

They're not the only fighters that haven't been "closers", the big difference to me is that they honestly have no legitimate competition and they're both still in their prime. And it's not that they can't end it early, it's that they refuse to.
pesticid
QUOTE (gravytrain @ Oct 20 2010, 02:14 PM) *
I haven't given them a pass, this is just about the Klits and the possibility of them being P4P fighters.

They're not the only fighters that haven't been "closers", the big difference to me is that they honestly have no legitimate competition and they're both still in their prime. And it's not that they can't end it early, it's that they refuse to.


For Wlad I can agree, he is in his prime and since Manny took over he is even more afraid. For Vitaly on the other hand, he is no longer in his prime, his quickness and power is not the same and he throws a load of hard punches setting records for punches landed as a heavyweight. So this does apply to Wlad but not to Vitaly.
Big Slim Sweet
QUOTE (Fitz @ Oct 20 2010, 12:45 AM) *
I see what you are saying Slim, but I don't think the fact they are brothers can be ignored.

I don't think it takes away from each others legacy either. I suppose it depends on how you look at it. I think it can be looked at in two ways:

  1. The best fighters in the divisison won't fight each other, which should never happen
  2. They are the only good fighters in the shit division, a win for either will be a good win over a good fighter, but because of the circumstances, they will never get that chance at having a good win on their resume that will do them justice.


I don't think reason one will be held against them. Though I can see reason 2 being something that takes away from their legacy. I have always thought that the heavyweight division now are holding the Klitschko's back. I think they are better than they are given credit for, just because the rest of the division make them look bad. I think if they fought in a different era, they would probably be more respected, because we would see that they could do more than just hold their own against good opposition.
There just haven't been any good fighters, so they don't have that guy on their resume for them to look good. So I suppose if you look at it that they are the only two good guys, perhaps if it was possible for them to fight each other, it would be a win against a good opposition, so they get their credit. That will not happen, so I think it can hurt them that way, because they just won't get appreciated.
I don't look at it as a way as the two guys refusing to fight each other (like Pacquiao-Mayweather). I know you don't think that either, I just though that the 'hurt their legacy' argument could be looked at in two different ways.


The fact that they're brothers can't be ignored as far as them not fighting, it's true. But being the man in a division brings a different type of pressure than being 1/2 of that does. Who knows how either guy would respond to that type of pressure? I believe Vitali would handle it well. Not so sure about Wlad.

I'm just not sure how you rank them individually in the p4p category. To use a wrestling analogy, think of The Road Warriors. Hawk and Animal were two of the baddest dudes in wrestling, but neither one really gets talked about as being one of the greats of their era, with guys like Hogan, Flair, Savage, Hart, etc. They always get thrown into the conversation in tandem. I don't really see either Wlad or Vitali building an individual legacy for themselves, though maybe I'm holding it against them that they're more or less equally dominant over the same sorry sack of shit competition.

For the record, the two have grown on me the past couple of years in terms of accepting and acknowledging that they're pretty legit fighters. I don't think either one could have hung with Lennox Lewis 10 years ago but this is unquestionably become their era, for whatever that's worth.


JLUVBABY
QUOTE (King Eugene @ Oct 20 2010, 06:43 AM) *
With Vitali's style, size(meaning he'd be a lot bigger than most opposition in any weight class), timing, and grit to fight he'd probably be dominant at any division. He's not the fastest but he has precision timing. He uses his size very well(which I wish PWill would do) and takes full advantage of his reach. He might be very beatable but haven't a soul proved it.


speed will be the killer of vitali king... he has yet to fight someone with speed with a punch he respects...
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (King Eugene @ Oct 20 2010, 06:43 AM) *
With Vitali's style, size(meaning he'd be a lot bigger than most opposition in any weight class), timing, and grit to fight he'd probably be dominant at any division. He's not the fastest but he has precision timing. He uses his size very well(which I wish PWill would do) and takes full advantage of his reach. He might be very beatable but haven't a soul proved it.


speed will be the killer of vitali king... he has yet to fight someone with speed with a punch he respects...
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (pesticid @ Oct 20 2010, 01:03 PM) *
Yeah but how many guys like that that did Lennox fool around without even hurting them bad, thining of Tua and the Croatian guy. How many guys did Larry Holmes did not finish either? I mean why do they get a pass and Vitaly doesn't when only 3 fighters have made it to the final round?


i wouldnt say those guys get a past... tho i will also say lewis is a notch below a great heavyweight but i can see where some might rank him i suppose... that aside larry holmes ko'd any cream puff he fought in his prime... maybe a few of them lingered on but he got those guys out of there... every body the klits have faced in the last few years have been sub par opponents for what should be the most prestigous prize in all of sports.. only contenders i personally feel had reason in the ring with them are thompson, maybe peter and really arreola was unproven against a true contender before he stepped in the ring with them... there is nobody except for maybe haye and valuev that is PREPARED to step in the ring with them and give a true test... like i said before maybe thompson gives vitali a good fight because of styles and MAYBE arreola gives wlad a nice shoot out... after that what?... only other guy i think would make a good fight with vitali if he'd be willing to fight him would be dimentrinko and again because of his style... just would make for a fan friendly fight... back on subject tho... lol... believe me if larry holmes had the punch of either klit to go with his boxing skill he'd be considered the greatest right now not ali... tho i rank him very high on my list as it is... being respectful to louis i have him at my number 3...
pesticid
All of Vitali's first 38 fights can be found here:

http://www.ex.ua/view/134824

01. Vitali Klitschko TKO 1 Tony Bradham (06.11.1996)
02. Vitali Klitschko TKO 1 Frantisek Sumina (30.11.1996)
03. Vitali Klitschko TKO 2 Brian Lee Sargent (21.12.1996 )
04. Vitali Klitschko KO 1 Mike Acklie (25.01.1997)
05. Vitali Klitschko KO 2 Troy Roberts (22.02.1997)
06. Vitali Klitschko KO 1 Calvin Jones (08.03.1997)
07. Vitali Klitschko TKO 2 Derrick Roddy (12.04.1997)
08. Vitali Klitschko KO 2 Cleveland Woods (10.05.1997)
09. Vitali Klitschko KO 2 Jimmy Haynes (14.06.1997)
10. Vitali Klitschko KO 2 Will Hinton (04.10.1997)
11. Vitali Klitschko KO 6 Gilberto Williamson (08.11.1997)
12. Vitali Klitschko TKO 5 Anthony Willis (20.12.1997)
13. Vitali Klitschko TKO 2 Marcus Rhode (17.01.1998)
14. Vitali Klitschko KO 2 Alben Belinski (30.01.1998)
15. Vitali Klitschko KO 3 Louis Monaco (07.03.1998)
16. Vitali Klitschko KO 2 Levi Billups (20.03.1998)
17. Vitali Klitschko TKO 2 Julius Francis (18.04.1998)
18. Vitali Klitschko TKO 5 Dicky Ryan (02.05.1998)
19. Vitali Klitschko TKO 2 Jose Ribalta (05.06.1998)
20. Vitali Klitschko TKO 1 Ricardo Kennedy (11.08.1998)
21. Vitali Klitschko TKO 2 Mario Schiesser (24.10.1998)
22. Vitali Klitschko TKO 2 Francesco Spinelli (05.12.1998)
23. Vitali Klitschko TKO 2 Ismael John Youla (20.02.1999)
24. Vitali Klitschko KO 2 Herbie Hide (25.06.1999)
25. Vitali Klitschko KO 3 Ed Mahone (09.10.1999)
26. Vitali Klitschko TKO 10 Obed Sullivan (11.12.1999)
27. Vitali Klitschko RTD 10 Chris Byrd (01.04.2000)
28. Vitali Klitschko W 12 Timo Hoffmann (25.11.2000)
29. Vitali Klitschko KO 1 Orlin Norris (27.01.2001)
30. Vitali Klitschko TKO 11 Ross Puritty (08.12.2001)
31. Vitali Klitschko TKO 11 Vaughn Bean (08.02.2002)
32. Vitali Klitschko TKO 10 Larry Donald (23.11.2002)
33. Vitali Klitschko VTKO 6 Lennox Lewis (21.06.2003)
34. Vitali Klitschko TKO 2 Kirk Johnson (06.12.2003)
35. Vitali Klitschko TKO 8 Corrie Sanders (24.04.2004)
36. Vitali Klitschko TKO 8 Danny Williams (11.12.2004)
37. Vitali Klitschko TKO 9 Sam Peter (11.10.2008)
38. Vitali Klitschko TKO 9 Juan Carlos Gomez (21.03.200
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (pesticid @ Oct 20 2010, 06:42 PM) *
All of Vitali's first 38 fights can be found here:

http://www.ex.ua/view/134824

01. Vitali Klitschko TKO 1 Tony Bradham (06.11.1996)
02. Vitali Klitschko TKO 1 Frantisek Sumina (30.11.1996)
03. Vitali Klitschko TKO 2 Brian Lee Sargent (21.12.1996 )
04. Vitali Klitschko KO 1 Mike Acklie (25.01.1997)
05. Vitali Klitschko KO 2 Troy Roberts (22.02.1997)
06. Vitali Klitschko KO 1 Calvin Jones (08.03.1997)
07. Vitali Klitschko TKO 2 Derrick Roddy (12.04.1997)
08. Vitali Klitschko KO 2 Cleveland Woods (10.05.1997)
09. Vitali Klitschko KO 2 Jimmy Haynes (14.06.1997)
10. Vitali Klitschko KO 2 Will Hinton (04.10.1997)
11. Vitali Klitschko KO 6 Gilberto Williamson (08.11.1997)
12. Vitali Klitschko TKO 5 Anthony Willis (20.12.1997)
13. Vitali Klitschko TKO 2 Marcus Rhode (17.01.1998)
14. Vitali Klitschko KO 2 Alben Belinski (30.01.1998)
15. Vitali Klitschko KO 3 Louis Monaco (07.03.1998)
16. Vitali Klitschko KO 2 Levi Billups (20.03.1998)
17. Vitali Klitschko TKO 2 Julius Francis (18.04.1998)
18. Vitali Klitschko TKO 5 Dicky Ryan (02.05.1998)
19. Vitali Klitschko TKO 2 Jose Ribalta (05.06.1998)
20. Vitali Klitschko TKO 1 Ricardo Kennedy (11.08.1998)
21. Vitali Klitschko TKO 2 Mario Schiesser (24.10.1998)
22. Vitali Klitschko TKO 2 Francesco Spinelli (05.12.1998)
23. Vitali Klitschko TKO 2 Ismael John Youla (20.02.1999)
24. Vitali Klitschko KO 2 Herbie Hide (25.06.1999)
25. Vitali Klitschko KO 3 Ed Mahone (09.10.1999)
26. Vitali Klitschko TKO 10 Obed Sullivan (11.12.1999)
27. Vitali Klitschko RTD 10 Chris Byrd (01.04.2000)
28. Vitali Klitschko W 12 Timo Hoffmann (25.11.2000)
29. Vitali Klitschko KO 1 Orlin Norris (27.01.2001)
30. Vitali Klitschko TKO 11 Ross Puritty (08.12.2001)
31. Vitali Klitschko TKO 11 Vaughn Bean (08.02.2002)
32. Vitali Klitschko TKO 10 Larry Donald (23.11.2002)
33. Vitali Klitschko VTKO 6 Lennox Lewis (21.06.2003)
34. Vitali Klitschko TKO 2 Kirk Johnson (06.12.2003)
35. Vitali Klitschko TKO 8 Corrie Sanders (24.04.2004)
36. Vitali Klitschko TKO 8 Danny Williams (11.12.2004)
37. Vitali Klitschko TKO 9 Sam Peter (11.10.2008)
38. Vitali Klitschko TKO 9 Juan Carlos Gomez (21.03.200


ok... now tell me who stands out in this list of fighters?... the named fighters he beat are all very well past their primes... i give him a pass with byrd cuzz he was beating the hell out of byrd... but man this list of opponents stinks.... lewis being the only real threat out of the list and he lost that one (and ill give him peter and he's questionable)... that aside i give vitali his props but the guy is not a great heavyweight...
pesticid
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Oct 20 2010, 08:11 PM) *
ok... now tell me who stands out in this list of fighters?... the named fighters he beat are all very well past their primes... i give him a pass with byrd cuzz he was beating the hell out of byrd... but man this list of opponents stinks.... lewis being the only real threat out of the list and he lost that one (and ill give him peter and he's questionable)... that aside i give vitali his props but the guy is not a great heavyweight...


Chris Byrd, Lennox Lewis, Kirk Johnson, Sam Peter, Carlos Gomez, Larry Donald, Corry Sanders. Not the best comp, I never said he did. His brother has a much stronger resume but much stronger losses too. Mike Tyson and Marciano's resumes are not so much better either. I don;t know who Joe Louis or Jack Johnson fought and Larry Holmes didn't fight many live bodies. The only guys that did at heavyweight were Ali, Foreman, Frazier and Evander
gravytrain
QUOTE (pesticid @ Oct 20 2010, 08:16 PM) *
Chris Byrd, Lennox Lewis, Kirk Johnson, Sam Peter, Carlos Gomez, Larry Donald, Corry Sanders. Not the best comp, I never said he did. His brother has a much stronger resume but much stronger losses too. Mike Tyson and Marciano's resumes are not so much better either. I don;t know who Joe Louis or Jack Johnson fought and Larry Holmes didn't fight many live bodies. The only guys that did at heavyweight were Ali, Foreman, Frazier and Evander


Beat Jersey Joe well past his prime, Schmeling, Max Baer, and Jim Braddock. Not to mention that he opened the door for black fighters to fight for the HW title and won the proxy war between the US and Nazi Germany in the ring.

The funny thing about the Klits and Louis is they're in a similar situation, Louis just took advantage of that situation. Expectations have changed but generally speaking their situation is practically identical. Louis fought in a relatively weak era and the popularity of the division rested on his shoulders, he brought the division back from the ashes after Dempsey retired. The Klits also fight in a weak era and for the division to reclaim former glory it's all on them. The difference being that Louis scored Tyson like kayos for that time period and beat Sharkey worse than Dempsey did, the Klits didn't clean up the fighters from the previous era and are miles away from being entertaining by today's standards.

The opportunity is available to them and I can tell you right now no one would be talking about the HW division being dead if Wlad and Vitali were doing what they were capable of and getting guys out within two rounds.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (gravytrain @ Oct 20 2010, 07:54 PM) *
Beat Jersey Joe well past his prime, Schmeling, Max Baer, and Jim Braddock. Not to mention that he opened the door for black fighters to fight for the HW title and won the proxy war between the US and Nazi Germany in the ring.

The funny thing about the Klits and Louis is they're in a similar situation, Louis just took advantage of that situation. Expectations have changed but generally speaking their situation is practically identical. Louis fought in a relatively weak era and the popularity of the division rested on his shoulders, he brought the division back from the ashes after Dempsey retired. The Klits also fight in a weak era and for the division to reclaim former glory it's all on them. The difference being that Louis scored Tyson like kayos for that time period and beat Sharkey worse than Dempsey did, the Klits didn't clean up the fighters from the previous era and are miles away from being entertaining by today's standards.

The opportunity is available to them and I can tell you right now no one would be talking about the HW division being dead if Wlad and Vitali were doing what they were capable of and getting guys out within two rounds.


jack johnson and joe gans opened the door for black fighters decades before louis... agreed on the them boys doing what they are supposed to be doing....
gravytrain
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Oct 20 2010, 09:00 PM) *
jack johnson and joe gans opened the door for black fighters decades before louis... agreed on the them boys doing what they are supposed to be doing....


Not taking anything from Johnson but he opened and closed that door. Jack Blackburn didn't even want to train Louis because he thought it'd be impossible for a black fighter to challenge for the HW title.
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (pesticid @ Oct 20 2010, 07:16 PM) *
Chris Byrd, Lennox Lewis, Kirk Johnson, Sam Peter, Carlos Gomez, Larry Donald, Corry Sanders. Not the best comp, I never said he did. His brother has a much stronger resume but much stronger losses too. Mike Tyson and Marciano's resumes are not so much better either. I don;t know who Joe Louis or Jack Johnson fought and Larry Holmes didn't fight many live bodies. The only guys that did at heavyweight were Ali, Foreman, Frazier and Evander


Kirk Johnson (lazy, fat), Sam Peter (exposed vs chambers), Carlos Gomez (come on), Larry Donald (never reached potential after bowe slapped him at the press conference), Corry Sanders (wasnt he retired fight before that one when he came back to sideswipe wladimir?... lol)
JLUVBABY
QUOTE (gravytrain @ Oct 20 2010, 08:13 PM) *
Not taking anything from Johnson but he opened and closed that door. Jack Blackburn didn't even want to train Louis because he thought it'd be impossible for a black fighter to challenge for the HW title.


actually johnson despised louis... there was somewhat of a jelousy factor involved... it had to do with louis being a contender to the crown... louis was gonna get a shot at the title... as long as he kept winning... he had white handlers thatt made sure he never smiled etc... basically made sure he was a good BOY...
pesticid
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Oct 20 2010, 09:36 PM) *
Kirk Johnson (lazy, fat), Sam Peter (exposed vs chambers), Carlos Gomez (come on), Larry Donald (never reached potential after bowe slapped him at the press conference), Corry Sanders (wasnt he retired fight before that one when he came back to sideswipe wladimir?... lol)


Great analysis, now what is Tyson's best win?
STEVENSKI
QUOTE (The Ollie Reed Fan Club @ Oct 20 2010, 05:47 PM) *
Clay used to spar without headgear and boxed on way too long. He also faced some monsters in Norton and Foreman that the brothers will not have to encounter. Ali's condition has little to do with how many guys he knocked out Steve and you know it. I think you may just be baiting our American bretheran laugh.gif



Some bait was in there but it was mostly about how some fighters get credit for displaying pure boxing skills & others get derided for displaying pure bosing skills not getting busted up & stopping 9/10 opponents. Know what I mean....

QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Oct 20 2010, 09:41 PM) *
i understand the fact that you are a fan of the two brothers, so am i, but they are not the great champions one would like to believe.... both are very beatable...


They certainly are beatable & have flaws to take advantage of but I am not a fan of the brothers. I respect their ability moreso than them.
Big Slim Sweet
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Oct 20 2010, 07:11 PM) *
ok... now tell me who stands out in this list of fighters?... the named fighters he beat are all very well past their primes... i give him a pass with byrd cuzz he was beating the hell out of byrd... but man this list of opponents stinks.... lewis being the only real threat out of the list and he lost that one (and ill give him peter and he's questionable)... that aside i give vitali his props but the guy is not a great heavyweight...

Agreed JLUV. When it's said and done Lennox is the only great fighter either of the brothers have fought and Vitali's face couldn't hold up to the punishment. And that was a fat, lazy, unmotivated half-retired Lennox.

I know Vitali acquitted himself nicely in that fight. I know he was beating the braids off of Byrd too but the fact is he would up losing those fights. And Wlad gassed out to a journeyman and got stomped by two mid-level guys. Yeah he's made the most of his career since then but truly great fighters don't lose those fights. This wasn't a Manny Pacquiao type deal either where the guy got KO'd a couple times when he was a novice on the come up. Wlad was already being touted as heir to the throne and had won some big fights before those.


QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Oct 20 2010, 08:36 PM) *
Kirk Johnson (lazy, fat), Sam Peter (exposed vs chambers), Carlos Gomez (come on), Larry Donald (never reached potential after bowe slapped him at the press conference), Corry Sanders (wasnt he retired fight before that one when he came back to sideswipe wladimir?... lol)

That wasn't a slap Bowe caught Donald with at the press conference.
King Eugene
QUOTE (SmartyBeardo @ Oct 20 2010, 09:24 AM) *
I have to disagree with you, KE. But, I'm not sure I understand exactly what you are saying. That is the problem with putting HWs in the P4P mix.

Are you suggesting that Big Sister be considered at his same height and speed transposed to the different weights? I don't think you are because if that were the case the older Klit would stand no chance in any other weight class, with the exception of Cruiser. He would be cut down like an unhealthy tree.

But, even if you meant that he would be the second or third tallest in every division, I can't see him being the #1 guy in most of them. There is just too much worthy top level competition in most of the divisions. He would be out-boxed and punished in most other divisions, the same way he would be if he was somehow dropped into the 70s HW Div mix.

This is not meant as a put down to Big Sis. Marciano, Louis, Tyson and Lewis would have suffered the same fate in that time warp.

IMO, Big Klit would not be more than top 5 in any division 168 down.

That does not matter though. It also does not matter what would have happened to him in the 70s. He is the King of the HW hill in this era. Nobody can take that away from him (not even his brother) anymore than they can take away that fact about Jack Johnson, Louis, Marciano, Ali, or Holmes.

He would KO Wlad like a tuna on a boat deck, BTW.

In order to chop a tree down you'd have to get close enough to it first. I'm pretty confident he'd use his jab as he does now to keep all opponents at bay. Precision timing will beat speed the majority of the time. KT wasn't the fastest but he timing was second to none. Vitali can box. He has more than just a one two. He only uses the 1-2 because thats all he needs to use. If its not broke dont fix it. I dont think much would change at the lower divisions either. He has a nice hook and uppercut as well. He's a smart fighter and would be able to make the necessary adjustments.
King Eugene
QUOTE (JLUVBABY @ Oct 20 2010, 06:51 PM) *
speed will be the killer of vitali king... he has yet to fight someone with speed with a punch he respects...

He wont respect Haye either. He has a punch but has to get there. Hell Haye was gassed after two rounds against Ruiz. You really think he has a chance against Vitali? Around rounds 6 or 7 the fight will become pretty clear. Haye would eat more Double Jabs followed by the right hand than he had planned on.

Dont get me wrong if they do fight I'd be rooting for Haye like a mutha fucka but Haye will tire chasing Vitali and swinging up all night while avoiding that long ass reach.
Warlord
QUOTE (pesticid @ Oct 20 2010, 08:59 PM) *
Great analysis, now what is Tyson's best win?

I already asked him. Apparently it is Tubbs and Tucker, who, despite all appearances and evidence to the contrary, were uber bad-asses that would've dominated the Klits had they fought in today's heavyweight division.
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